"... Why do people do this? ..."
To be fair to us (the 'us' of bygone days), we have gone around the bend.
Things that our forebears thought little of have become obsessions ...
- stamps bearing MNHOG (Mint Never Hinged Original Gum) (best pronounced MIN-hog)
- FDCs bearing postal addresses
- postal stationery cut squares
Some of this is hegemony, eg, if I've got a pristine something, I want to declare as loudly as possible that only pristine will do.
If pencil markings are giving you fits, buy one of these ...
http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/electric-eraser
... and have at them.
Just remember that anything you write on the sleeve goes with the sleeve, not the cover ...
... and never use a "cellophane sleeve" when archival materials are so readily available.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Thanks, Ike, I'll check that product out!
You are right, of course. I meant to say Clear Sleeve (of the acid-free sort).
I use a mechanical drafting eraser to remove pencil markings. Does a good job, except for the pencil markings that are heavily dug into a stamp. As with that smaller version of a mechanical eraser shown in the provided link above, it uses a soft, white plastic eraser.
However, these erasers will not remove pen ink or marker, like shown in the Canadian cover. The erasers that remove ink and such are too abrasive as they often contain very small pieces of glass or sand. Using such an eraser will no doubt often remove ink, but will also damage the paper.
MIN-hog . . . that's a new one for me. I like it.
You do have quite the skill for making up words and acronyms.
I was at one time getting approvals from a specialist dealer, I asked if he had any covers so he sent some. All sharply folded to fit in the mailing envelope. Oh yes, and all marked with his prices as well. He and I parted company shortly thereafter.
" Why do people do this? My biggest pet peeve . . ."
"... the cameos aren't very good ..."
Youpiao, I couldn't agree more. Another problem I have (I collect books as well). Plus the problem with the high tech erasers sometimes is that they can leave a wear mark where the price used to be, making it all too clear what was done, anyway. Again, I will never understand this. Collecting and selling is supposed to be a profession. People should know what they're doing and take great care and pride in what they do.
"...the marking "Phosphor Lines" on your cover appears to be in the same hand as the address, rather than applied later by a dealer or collector. It marks the cover as philatelic, ..."
I've learned to pretty much ignore extraneous marks on covers. I mainly collect "old" covers, a descriptor which I should change because many of them moved through the mail streams years or even decades after I was born (1943). If they are old, what does that make me?! Anyway, many of them have various notes and prices written on them by one or more dealers, and the older they are the more likely they are to have such markings on them. Here's a recently acquired example:
It's a first flight cover, flown by the famous French pilot Jean Mermoz from Buenos Aires to Santiago de Chile in 1929. It was the first airmail flight over the Andes. That "marking" on the front — Mermoz' signature — only adds to the cover's value commercially and as a collectable. On the back there are several marks that I would prefer not to have. Here's a larger image:
"Berkshire $12.50 / Page 93" refers, I assume, to a catalogue value. Does anyone know? The dealer told me that 41 covers were carried on the flight, which is reflected in what is probably a dealer's notation: "#123 / 41 carried". The "KERST" rubber stamp impression is, I assume, an expertization mark or possibly a collector's mark. Is anyone aware of a Kerst expertization service?
I generally accept such marks as part of the cover's provenance, although I do draw the line at certain "practices". I have been offered, but not purchased, covers in which the sender's and recipient's names have been marked out with pen or pencil, or even cut out. The most egregious examples: covers sent to and from a Canadian POW in Japan during the Second World War. Someone had used thick Witeout or some other white correction fluid to obliterate the names, turning a cover worth hundreds of dollars into paper waste, in my opinion. Vandalism!
Unfortunately, many cover dealers today mark prices directly on the inexpensive covers and postcards rather than on plastic sleeves. When I questioned a local dealer about why he did that, he said that it wasn't worth his time and trouble and expense of using plastic sleeves, and he's a dealer who has sold me some of the most expensive covers in my collection.
A caution about erasing pencil marks on covers: a few years ago, I invited a local paper conservator to speak to my stamp club. Among her comments: NEVER erase marks on any paper you wish to conserve. Erasing removes the marks because it removes paper fibres. An erased cover is a damaged cover. Obviously, the decision to erase or not to erase is entirely subjective. Entropy happens. One day the last Penny Black will crumble to dust. The question is whether we want to speed entropy along or let other people and nature take care of that for us!
Bob
If one should decide to erase a price point, I understand that, and have thrown up my hands in disbelief at the marring of many covers either with pencil or pen.
However, as has been previously noted, one must use the eraser very carefully.
Oftentimes, along the bottom of WWII German censored covers, there are sequences of handwritten numbers and letters, in either ink or pencil, placed there by the Wehrmacht censor which resemble dealer markings or personal collector codings so obviously those should never be erased.
Bruce
Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?
Erniejax asked,
"Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?"
I have quite a few modern envelopes with scrawl of random notes I or my children have made. One such note listed the heavy metal songs I liked when listening to Liquid Metal on Sirius XM on the drive home one day. The only thing available to write on was an envelope. For example, I recall I wrote "Mars Needs Women" by Rob Zombie so I could tell my brother this would be a good song to cover in his local rock band. Imagine if covers were worth saving today and some collector, maybe my son, forty years hence, sells that cover.
Great cover Bob, the graffiti calculations definitely make you wonder.
Bob, very interesting post that gives one food for thought. I do know that the added marks of modern selling prices are really the only thing that drives me up a wall (10-, 15- etc.). Anything else I let go; I just don't see how it is much extra work to sleeve a letter and price mark there if you have a passion for what you do. By the way, the impetus for following through on a mystery and possibly solving it is, to me, one of the main draws of cover collecting. That's why I do it!
Matt
"... I just don't see how it is much extra work to sleeve a letter and price mark ..."
Well, of that there's no doubt, as I've only been collecting for about 3 years. By the way, I didn't mean to offend. I merely approach from the viewpoint of would an art dealer or gallery owner write even in pencil 10,000- on a 130 yr. old Impressionist painting? However, your point is taken. I work in an IP and patent library, and as with all inventions perhaps this is a problem looking for a solution - how to price covers without creating the problems you rightly point out, and without marking up the work itself. I am inspired!
and Jake, when you discover, and patent, the answer, I want to know.
each approach has its cost and benefit. I generally insert a card in the cover describing stamp, rate, markings, etc. I can be as long winded as some say i am. Cheap (free), relatively permanent, but increases width by 1/2 and is not visible until withdrawn.
I only do this with covers where some explanation is important.
"each approach has its cost and benefit. I generally insert a card in the cover describing stamp, rate, markings, etc. I can be as long winded as some say i am. Cheap (free), relatively permanent, but increases width by 1/2 and is not visible until withdrawn."
and to share in the topic of misc unwanted markings on covers and stamps. I had a collection where the owner wrote the Scott number IN PEN on the back of every stamp. Recently I bought a discount postage lot and the previous owner had done the same IN PEN in the selvage of each plate block, on the front so it would always be visible.. into the postage bin! I also have covers where someone wrote the Scott number under each stamp. Argh! So here's a few examples where extra markings prove interesting:
Here's an interesting cover that Smaugie sent me for my New Jersey postmark collection. It's only a front, but a nice appearing piece with a clear postmark.
This is the reverse side, and an example of when extra markings add to the interest of the piece. It was mailed from a bank in Asbury Park, NJ to a bank in Park River, Dakota. Note that this was "Dakota Territory" as North and South Dakota became states in 1889, two years after our cover was mailed. Paper may have been hard to come by out west in those days, so they weren't wasting anything. The envelope was carefully cut into two pieces of scrap paper (front and back) and used for bank notations. It seems that JR Wooley paid his 1849 balance of $3 plus $2.50 interest as indicated by the PAID stamp. The piece also has many tack marks as if this was tacked up on a board or wall. All in all a nice piece of history! And think about this, the cover probably wouldn't have survived, if not for it's second usage. So it's a keeper! Thanks Smaugie!
Here's my favorite Ben Franklin private perforation cover. This is the uncataloged Covel private perforation that I've studied forever. I've had it since the 1970s, and other examples have sold in the $500 range in the past few years. Front side is clean, except for the opening damage at the top.
And here's the reverse side... we've all taken a piece of junk mail and have written a note on the back of the envelope. This was done in 1916 "Have gone to the Paramont with Joe and Helen" in pencil, I guess they were going to the silent movies! This does take from the piece, but nobody has tried to erase it in over 100 years.
The second marking is "Guaranteed Genuine Schermack Private Perf on Cover" from Herman Herst Jr, expertising the cover. This is a good marking! And indeed, Schermack created these for Covel.
There is another marking in a circle, it's either "Bob" or more likely "1306". I have no idea what this would mean.
Hey Tom,
Those are examples of writing on cover that would not bother me. The pencil note is on the back and I'd venture to say that it was written in very close proximity time wise to when that piece went through the mail. Looks like whoever wrote the note momentarily forgot how to write a cursive "J"!
"... would an art dealer or gallery owner write even in pencil 10,000- on a 130 yr. old Impressionist painting? ..."
"Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?"
"
Those are examples of writing on cover that would not bother me. "
IkeyPikey said,
"...cleaning & restoring that painting - or most any other antique, for that matter - adds to its value..."
Bobstamp:
AFAIK, patina is generally a good thing, and should be left alone. Dents & scratches & cracks are bad things, and should be repaired. You & I might not readily spot the difference between patina & dirt & corrosion but, hey, that's what the experts are for.
From discussions in other venues, I have come to accept that the issue is singularity.
There just ain't that many maps that were carried on the Mayflower so, if you've got one, repair & restoration are encouraged, and add value.
OTOH, there were a great many Penny Blacks printed so, if you've got a torn one, you should just bite the bullet and buy a nice one.
Covers are kinda in the middle. Repairing/restoring a cover from Abe Lincoln is more readily tolerated than patching an Artcraft FDC of the 5c Davy Crockett stamp.
I do not buy the argument that covers need to be kept with whatever dirt came with them, including old dealer prices. If you need to save that information, scan it.
In all cases, you can document the cleaning/repair/etc, so that you do not inadvertently mislead the next owner of the piece.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
I'm sure this is something you've all come across: we stamp and cover collectors are usually a careful, deliberate and rational sort. We take care of our treasures, understand that visual display is very important, and want to protect and portray our covers in the very best light. Can anyone tell me, then, why it is that (IMO) between a quarter and a third of cover collectors, knowing that they own a valuable piece of postal history, simply degrade or ruin something that was quite fine by whipping out a pencil and inscribing right on the front of the cover - 10- or 4- or 15- so no one could possibly mistake what they are selling their postal cover for? It's infuriating! Honestly, I've seen these penciled-on prices on otherwise gorgeous advertising postal covers over 130 years old! No one in their right mind would mark up a cover like that; there are many other ways of pricing covers (white sticker on cellophane sleeve, hello?). Why do people do this? My biggest pet peeve . . .
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"... Why do people do this? ..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
To be fair to us (the 'us' of bygone days), we have gone around the bend.
Things that our forebears thought little of have become obsessions ...
- stamps bearing MNHOG (Mint Never Hinged Original Gum) (best pronounced MIN-hog)
- FDCs bearing postal addresses
- postal stationery cut squares
Some of this is hegemony, eg, if I've got a pristine something, I want to declare as loudly as possible that only pristine will do.
If pencil markings are giving you fits, buy one of these ...
http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/electric-eraser
... and have at them.
Just remember that anything you write on the sleeve goes with the sleeve, not the cover ...
... and never use a "cellophane sleeve" when archival materials are so readily available.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Thanks, Ike, I'll check that product out!
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
You are right, of course. I meant to say Clear Sleeve (of the acid-free sort).
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
I use a mechanical drafting eraser to remove pencil markings. Does a good job, except for the pencil markings that are heavily dug into a stamp. As with that smaller version of a mechanical eraser shown in the provided link above, it uses a soft, white plastic eraser.
However, these erasers will not remove pen ink or marker, like shown in the Canadian cover. The erasers that remove ink and such are too abrasive as they often contain very small pieces of glass or sand. Using such an eraser will no doubt often remove ink, but will also damage the paper.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
MIN-hog . . . that's a new one for me. I like it.
You do have quite the skill for making up words and acronyms.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
I was at one time getting approvals from a specialist dealer, I asked if he had any covers so he sent some. All sharply folded to fit in the mailing envelope. Oh yes, and all marked with his prices as well. He and I parted company shortly thereafter.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
" Why do people do this? My biggest pet peeve . . ."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"... the cameos aren't very good ..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Youpiao, I couldn't agree more. Another problem I have (I collect books as well). Plus the problem with the high tech erasers sometimes is that they can leave a wear mark where the price used to be, making it all too clear what was done, anyway. Again, I will never understand this. Collecting and selling is supposed to be a profession. People should know what they're doing and take great care and pride in what they do.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"...the marking "Phosphor Lines" on your cover appears to be in the same hand as the address, rather than applied later by a dealer or collector. It marks the cover as philatelic, ..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
I've learned to pretty much ignore extraneous marks on covers. I mainly collect "old" covers, a descriptor which I should change because many of them moved through the mail streams years or even decades after I was born (1943). If they are old, what does that make me?! Anyway, many of them have various notes and prices written on them by one or more dealers, and the older they are the more likely they are to have such markings on them. Here's a recently acquired example:
It's a first flight cover, flown by the famous French pilot Jean Mermoz from Buenos Aires to Santiago de Chile in 1929. It was the first airmail flight over the Andes. That "marking" on the front — Mermoz' signature — only adds to the cover's value commercially and as a collectable. On the back there are several marks that I would prefer not to have. Here's a larger image:
"Berkshire $12.50 / Page 93" refers, I assume, to a catalogue value. Does anyone know? The dealer told me that 41 covers were carried on the flight, which is reflected in what is probably a dealer's notation: "#123 / 41 carried". The "KERST" rubber stamp impression is, I assume, an expertization mark or possibly a collector's mark. Is anyone aware of a Kerst expertization service?
I generally accept such marks as part of the cover's provenance, although I do draw the line at certain "practices". I have been offered, but not purchased, covers in which the sender's and recipient's names have been marked out with pen or pencil, or even cut out. The most egregious examples: covers sent to and from a Canadian POW in Japan during the Second World War. Someone had used thick Witeout or some other white correction fluid to obliterate the names, turning a cover worth hundreds of dollars into paper waste, in my opinion. Vandalism!
Unfortunately, many cover dealers today mark prices directly on the inexpensive covers and postcards rather than on plastic sleeves. When I questioned a local dealer about why he did that, he said that it wasn't worth his time and trouble and expense of using plastic sleeves, and he's a dealer who has sold me some of the most expensive covers in my collection.
A caution about erasing pencil marks on covers: a few years ago, I invited a local paper conservator to speak to my stamp club. Among her comments: NEVER erase marks on any paper you wish to conserve. Erasing removes the marks because it removes paper fibres. An erased cover is a damaged cover. Obviously, the decision to erase or not to erase is entirely subjective. Entropy happens. One day the last Penny Black will crumble to dust. The question is whether we want to speed entropy along or let other people and nature take care of that for us!
Bob
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
If one should decide to erase a price point, I understand that, and have thrown up my hands in disbelief at the marring of many covers either with pencil or pen.
However, as has been previously noted, one must use the eraser very carefully.
Oftentimes, along the bottom of WWII German censored covers, there are sequences of handwritten numbers and letters, in either ink or pencil, placed there by the Wehrmacht censor which resemble dealer markings or personal collector codings so obviously those should never be erased.
Bruce
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Erniejax asked,
"Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?"
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
I have quite a few modern envelopes with scrawl of random notes I or my children have made. One such note listed the heavy metal songs I liked when listening to Liquid Metal on Sirius XM on the drive home one day. The only thing available to write on was an envelope. For example, I recall I wrote "Mars Needs Women" by Rob Zombie so I could tell my brother this would be a good song to cover in his local rock band. Imagine if covers were worth saving today and some collector, maybe my son, forty years hence, sells that cover.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Great cover Bob, the graffiti calculations definitely make you wonder.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Bob, very interesting post that gives one food for thought. I do know that the added marks of modern selling prices are really the only thing that drives me up a wall (10-, 15- etc.). Anything else I let go; I just don't see how it is much extra work to sleeve a letter and price mark there if you have a passion for what you do. By the way, the impetus for following through on a mystery and possibly solving it is, to me, one of the main draws of cover collecting. That's why I do it!
Matt
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"... I just don't see how it is much extra work to sleeve a letter and price mark ..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Well, of that there's no doubt, as I've only been collecting for about 3 years. By the way, I didn't mean to offend. I merely approach from the viewpoint of would an art dealer or gallery owner write even in pencil 10,000- on a 130 yr. old Impressionist painting? However, your point is taken. I work in an IP and patent library, and as with all inventions perhaps this is a problem looking for a solution - how to price covers without creating the problems you rightly point out, and without marking up the work itself. I am inspired!
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
and Jake, when you discover, and patent, the answer, I want to know.
each approach has its cost and benefit. I generally insert a card in the cover describing stamp, rate, markings, etc. I can be as long winded as some say i am. Cheap (free), relatively permanent, but increases width by 1/2 and is not visible until withdrawn.
I only do this with covers where some explanation is important.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"each approach has its cost and benefit. I generally insert a card in the cover describing stamp, rate, markings, etc. I can be as long winded as some say i am. Cheap (free), relatively permanent, but increases width by 1/2 and is not visible until withdrawn."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
and to share in the topic of misc unwanted markings on covers and stamps. I had a collection where the owner wrote the Scott number IN PEN on the back of every stamp. Recently I bought a discount postage lot and the previous owner had done the same IN PEN in the selvage of each plate block, on the front so it would always be visible.. into the postage bin! I also have covers where someone wrote the Scott number under each stamp. Argh! So here's a few examples where extra markings prove interesting:
Here's an interesting cover that Smaugie sent me for my New Jersey postmark collection. It's only a front, but a nice appearing piece with a clear postmark.
This is the reverse side, and an example of when extra markings add to the interest of the piece. It was mailed from a bank in Asbury Park, NJ to a bank in Park River, Dakota. Note that this was "Dakota Territory" as North and South Dakota became states in 1889, two years after our cover was mailed. Paper may have been hard to come by out west in those days, so they weren't wasting anything. The envelope was carefully cut into two pieces of scrap paper (front and back) and used for bank notations. It seems that JR Wooley paid his 1849 balance of $3 plus $2.50 interest as indicated by the PAID stamp. The piece also has many tack marks as if this was tacked up on a board or wall. All in all a nice piece of history! And think about this, the cover probably wouldn't have survived, if not for it's second usage. So it's a keeper! Thanks Smaugie!
Here's my favorite Ben Franklin private perforation cover. This is the uncataloged Covel private perforation that I've studied forever. I've had it since the 1970s, and other examples have sold in the $500 range in the past few years. Front side is clean, except for the opening damage at the top.
And here's the reverse side... we've all taken a piece of junk mail and have written a note on the back of the envelope. This was done in 1916 "Have gone to the Paramont with Joe and Helen" in pencil, I guess they were going to the silent movies! This does take from the piece, but nobody has tried to erase it in over 100 years.
The second marking is "Guaranteed Genuine Schermack Private Perf on Cover" from Herman Herst Jr, expertising the cover. This is a good marking! And indeed, Schermack created these for Covel.
There is another marking in a circle, it's either "Bob" or more likely "1306". I have no idea what this would mean.
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Hey Tom,
Those are examples of writing on cover that would not bother me. The pencil note is on the back and I'd venture to say that it was written in very close proximity time wise to when that piece went through the mail. Looks like whoever wrote the note momentarily forgot how to write a cursive "J"!
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"... would an art dealer or gallery owner write even in pencil 10,000- on a 130 yr. old Impressionist painting? ..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
"Is there ever a situation where these "extra" markings could actually ENHANCE the collectibility a cover?"
"
Those are examples of writing on cover that would not bother me. "
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
IkeyPikey said,
"...cleaning & restoring that painting - or most any other antique, for that matter - adds to its value..."
re: An Infuriating Pet Peeve
Bobstamp:
AFAIK, patina is generally a good thing, and should be left alone. Dents & scratches & cracks are bad things, and should be repaired. You & I might not readily spot the difference between patina & dirt & corrosion but, hey, that's what the experts are for.
From discussions in other venues, I have come to accept that the issue is singularity.
There just ain't that many maps that were carried on the Mayflower so, if you've got one, repair & restoration are encouraged, and add value.
OTOH, there were a great many Penny Blacks printed so, if you've got a torn one, you should just bite the bullet and buy a nice one.
Covers are kinda in the middle. Repairing/restoring a cover from Abe Lincoln is more readily tolerated than patching an Artcraft FDC of the 5c Davy Crockett stamp.
I do not buy the argument that covers need to be kept with whatever dirt came with them, including old dealer prices. If you need to save that information, scan it.
In all cases, you can document the cleaning/repair/etc, so that you do not inadvertently mislead the next owner of the piece.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey