Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I went to the post office this morning and requested $150 insurance for the one ounce First Class envelope containing the stamp. The postal clerk stated that First Class Mail cannot be insured, only Priority Mail or Certified Mail. Now I checked before-hand on the USPS website and they gave me the option of purchasing insurance when calculating the cost to mail my envelope. When checking the fine print in their online manual for insurance, is says that First Class Mail can be insured but started giving all kinds of exceptions that weren't spelled out but instead referenced lots of other sections of the manual. I got totally bogged down trying to sort through these references.
So my question is: Can USA First Class Mail be sent with insurance added? Are there exceptions if this if it is possible? My mailing is a #10 envelope containing a letter and a single stamp in a glassine envelope sandwiched between two pieces of heavy light cardboard in roughly the dimensions of the envelope.
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I first encountered this same problem 2-3 years ago! I was wanting to insure a business envelope containing stamps. The clerk kept calling my item a "letter." I explained there was no letter in the envelope, but that didn't matter. I explained that the insurance option was available on their own website, but that didn't matter either. Since I was persistent and she was getting frustrated with me, she eventually checked with her supervisor. She eventually insured my "letter," but said she'd never do it again because of the "new rules."
I now use padded mailers when sending items that need to be insured. It's ridiculous, but it's the USPS.
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I just went through screen-printed every page on the USPS website from the initial page where you enter the originating ZIP Code and destination and type of mailing all the way to final page that shows all charges for a first class letter weighing one ounce, the added non-machinability charge and the insurance charge. I expect an argument again so I will then ask to see the Post Master.
I wouldn't be so frustrated but last week I mailed a package off to Canada in an old Priority Mail box. Again, I went through the USPS website, picked the appropriate dimensions for the Priority Mail box and was given a mailing cost of $24.95. So I applied the postage stamps to the box to meet this rate and went to the Post Office only to be told that the cost for mailing this Priority was $36.00! The clerk went through the process several times, but each time her computer terminal showed a $36.00 postage charge. I went home very frustrated that day. So I just went through that calculation again online on the USPS website and again came up with $24.95! I have all the screen shots of that process also printed out and ready for my next Post Office visit.
So I am probably going to request to see the Post Master no matter what. I have only had one other instance in the last 15 years that caused me this much grief. That was one clerk that refused to accept my usage of service-inscribed stamps to pay the postage of my first class mail. I would have to hand her the envelopes for her to hand-cancel, and when I handed them over, she would look at them, give me a very dirty sideways glare and proclaim that I could not use those stamps on first class mail. That took a visit with the Post Master to resolve the matter and she was not seen at the window clerking again.
It's not just the USPS, its any bureaucracy, but the bigger the bureaucracy the worse it seems to get.
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My reply here is not related to your frustration with USPS; even though I can imagine how futile these situations can be. It is my confusion over the Scott references you gave.
Would the stamps that you refer to actually be #128 and #140, for these are the two redrawn 25c GV stamps that differ only in the watermark?
If that's what you meant, I now understand how this pickle may have come about. No real excuse for the seller by the way; certainly not where there is such a BIG difference in price and identification is easy peasy. But this happens a lot on eBay and not just on these redrawn issues.
Why though does the seller want this low value stamp insured? Totally ludicrous.
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Ningpo,
You are correct on the Scott numbers; I have made the correction to the original post.
The watermark was difficult to determine due to a hinge remainder. I could not see any watermark when using watermark fluid. I have a SAFE Signoscope that I use when the quick watermark fluid check does not work; the watermark was almost impossible to determine with it also. Only one half of a crown showed on the bottom right corner of the stamp, and to my eye, it looked like the Watermark 4 crown. I could not see any of the lettering in the watermark, so the block letter CA versus script CA was not available to make this determination.
The front of the stamp was very clean and had beautiful color, hence my purchase. The back of the stamp was not in as good of condition as the online description implied and impeded the watermark determination.
The seller may still be convinced it is the more expensive version of the stamp based upon his interpretation of the difficult to determine watermark.
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There are people who know this stuff better than I do, but it's my understanding that what you have to tell the clerk is that there is merchandise in the envelope. That's the part that's insurable.
I think this has worked for me in the past, but, like keesindy, I now pack things differently (a 4x6 envelope with rigidity), and then it becomes a first class package (or parcel? -- can't remember which). It is then trackable, too.
I wait and buy insurance, once I get home, from a 3rd-party shipping insurance site (usually, InsurePost.com). Cheaper than USPS, and doesn't require marking the package as insured. (In fact, they'd rather you didn't flag it as insured.) You can buy that insurance either that day or the next day after mailing, but no later than that.
The whole process (mailing something more complicated than a letter) seems way too complex, which is why I think so many people now just find the smallest flat-rate priority mail envelope or box and go with that. (But definitely more expensive.)
Good luck with this!
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"I wait and buy insurance, once I get home, from a 3rd-party shipping insurance site (usually, InsurePost.com). Cheaper than USPS, and doesn't require marking the package as insured. (In fact, they'd rather you didn't flag it as insured.) You can buy that insurance either that day or the next day after mailing, but no later than that."
If this is correct (and I think I have read this before regarding US postal insurance), this seems the most sensible and probably a less painful approach. I like the fact that no indication of insurance has to be shown, unlike other types of registered/special delivery mails, which effectively says 'Hey, look at me - help yourself'.
okstamps wrote:
"Only one half of a crown showed on the bottom right corner of the stamp, and to my eye, it looked like the Watermark 4 crown."
So if you had this difficulty, even using that Signobeast, how come the seller was so sure he had the better of the two? This is what drives me to distraction: lazy and at times disingenuous sellers. I have been in your situation more than once on eBay. The first time, I returned the item and got nothing from the seller. Never again. The next couple of times, I immediately filed an 'item not as described' report and got refunds within the hour. I then returned the items at my cost but in ordinary mail.
I bet those sellers were a little more cautious after that.
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Regarding the "old" priority mail box. If the box doesn't say "Flate Rate", then postage is calculated per the postage shipping table. Canada is now divided into zones, so the farther it goes, the higher the cost. I would guess that your "old" box was not a flat rate box. Your success in the previous mailing of the "old" box was probably because the clerk never noticed that the box was not a flat rate box. Recycle your old boxes and get the new ones.
Regarding insurance on first class. You can insure mailings that are sent via First Class Parcel. First Class Letter and First Class Large Envelope [corrected: that do not contain merchandise] are not insurable.
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Michael,
If a First Class envelope is not insurable, why does the USPS website that allows one to calculate the cost to send a letter (I checked the letter box and entered a one ounce weight, but also indicated that it was non-machinable) allow one to ask for the cost for a level of insurance for that piece of mail? You may be right, but the USPS website appears to disagree. As Philatariumm stated, I may have to indicate that merchandise is included within the envelope and not just a letter.
This has gotten to be an itch that I just have to scratch; I am going to pursue this First Class Mail that can't be insured issue until I have a absolute definition of the does and don'ts from my local postal officials. Those are the people that I have to deal with and I will end up having to follow their rules even if they are arbitrary.
I did a quick check online about the insurance through InsurePost.com. Their insurance rates are cheaper than that of the USPS, but you still have to purchase some type of tracking service from the USPS before you can get insurance through InsurePost.com. So the combination of USPS tracking and InsurePost.com insurance will still cost more than just simple insurance from the USPS.
It just seems wrong to me that you have to bundle up one stamp in a box or a padded envelope just to be able to send it with insurance. It's higher cost packaging and it's more wasteful in regards to the amount of physical material needed for the packaging. It's also more expensive for the USPS to handle because it is larger and weighs more. This may be a fool's errand on my part, but I am going to keep after it until the local USPS people beat me into submission.
In regards to the box that I sent to Canada, you are correct Michael. The Priority Mail boxes I have do not state that they are flat-rate boxes. The postage rate for a box (non-flat-rate) sent by Priority Mail to that address in Canada is $36.00 for the given weight rather than the $24.95 for the flat-rate box. My problem was that I used the old Priority Mail box because I didn't want to be wasteful, didn't understand the standard box versus flat-rate box packaging and then applied to postage stamps to the box before I went to the Post Office assuming I had calculated the correct rate. It was then too late to change the packaging to get the less expensive rate without throwing away nearly $25 in postage stamps that had already been applied.
No need for anyone to reply to my post. I think this is just me expressing my frustration and not really asking for any more help at this point.
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I think I have found the answer. It isn't easy reading the Domestic Mail Manual, which is why there's so much confusion over USPS rules.
Copied from the USPS Domestic Mail Manual Part 503 regarding insured mail:
Section 4.3.1 e.
"First-Class Mail, First-Class Package Service, and Priority Mail may be insured, if it contains matter that is eligible to be mailed at Standard Mail, USPS Retail Ground, or Package Services prices."
Section 4.3.2 e. states what types of mail may not be insured.
"Matter mailed at First-Class Mail prices (including Priority Mail) that consists of items described in 123.3.0,133.3.0, 223.3.0, and 233.2.0, and required to be mailed at First-Class Mail prices."
I read the exceptions, and it basically refers to business and personal papers, bills, statements, letters, etc. That tends to agree with Philatariumm's advice to mark the envelope "merchandise enclosed" that should be acceptable.
Here is a link to Part 503 of the DMM. Scroll down a little bit to Section 1.4. You will see a table that indicates what extra services are available for various classes of mail. It clearly shows that first class mail that is not excluded by 4.3.2 e. may be sent insured. You may want to print it out to show it to the clerk.
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/503.htm#1233286
I know that the next time I have a similar first class mailing, I will bring this up to the attention of the clerk if they reject my mail from being insured. I have been told this for many years by several different clerks and supervisors at different post offices.
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"In regards to the box that I sent to Canada, you are correct Michael. The Priority Mail boxes I have do not state that they are flat-rate boxes. The postage rate for a box (non-flat-rate) sent by Priority Mail to that address in Canada is $36.00 for the given weight rather than the $24.95 for the flat-rate box. My problem was that I used the old Priority Mail box because I didn't want to be wasteful, didn't understand the standard box versus flat-rate box packaging and then applied to postage stamps to the box before I went to the Post Office assuming I had calculated the correct rate. "
I haven't had this experience, but easily could have. I had no idea the older boxes I have couldn't be used as "Flat Rate" boxes. What a waste!
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"Here is a link to Part 503 of the DMM. Scroll down a little bit to Section 1.4. You will see a table that indicates what extra services are available for various classes of mail. It clearly shows that first class mail that is not excluded by 4.3.2 e. may be sent insured. You may want to print it out to show it to the clerk.
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/503.htm#1233286
I know that the next time I have a similar first class mailing, I will bring this up to the attention of the clerk if they reject my mail from being insured. I have been told this for many years by several different clerks and supervisors at different post offices."
Well, well, well.............Good job, Michael. I had tried to find something like this in the past, but soon gave up. I appreciate the fact you took the time to find and share this. Now we can begin educating all the clerks we deal with.
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Vindication!
I went back to the Post Office this afternoon to mail the letter and Hong Kong stamp except that I was just going to give up and ask to have the envelope mailed Certified Mail instead of Insured, then get the insurance from InsurePost.com when I got home. The stamps that I had already applied to pay for the insurance would cover the Certified Mail charge with a little bit left over as a gift to the USPS.
There were two clerks working this afternoon, with one of them being the lady that had insisted I could not send my First Class envelope with insurance. As luck would have it, she was the first one available when my turn for service came up.
She totally surprised me by immediately apologizing, explaining that she had checked with the other clerk after I had left yesterday and that he had explained that as long as there was insurable merchandize in the envelope, it could be mailed with insurance. So she applied the insurance sticker, carefully canceled the stamps that I had applied because "I know how that is how you guys like them!" and then attached a "NON-MACHINABLE" sticky when I explained that there were two cardboard inserts to protect the stamp and that I had applied the 21 Cent stamp to cover charge for
that service.
So in the end this turned into a very satisfying transaction and I now know for certain now how to handle the First Class Insurance question - just state that merchandise that is insurable is enclosed within the envelope. I don't believe that this will be a problem anymore at my post office.
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That's really encouraging! Maybe enough problems arose at enough post offices around the country that someone realized the need for clarification and training. Or not. We'll see.
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Many years ago I wanted to insure a stamp shipment in a flat envelope. The clerk told me that currency and stamps were only insurable at face value, not collector value.
I've also seen eBay situations where packages arrived damaged and the insurance claims denied because the shipper used a reused box. Either a box that came with product in it, reused for mailing, or a Priority Mail box that was used twice.
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I found the information in Part 609 of the USPS Domestic Mail Manual regarding filing a claim for loss regarding insured mailing of postage stamps.
However, first I want to point out Section 3.2 f. relating to proof of value:
"For Internet transactions conducted through a Web-based payment network that offers payment services through a stored value account, provide a computer printout of the online transaction identifying the purchaser and seller, price paid, date of transaction, description of item purchased, and assurance that the transaction status is completed. The printout must clearly identify the Web-based payment network provider through which the Internet transaction was conducted."
I receive a large number of shipments of stamp purchases where the seller does not include a packing slip. I always include a packing slip with my shipments. I view it as a seller's responsibility and a courtesy to the buyer. Packing slips also contain the name and address of the buyer and seller. If something happens to the outside of the mail piece to where the addresses are unreadable, the post office will open the piece to attempt to find something that contains names and addresses so that the piece can be delivered. I even do this by enclosing a small note when I send free items to people.
Section 4 concerns Claims. 4.1 g, specifically mentions how a claim for lost or damaged postage stamps are payable:
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
I think an argument can be made that the price paid for the stamps as stated on the packing slip, copy of invoice, etc. was the fair market price for the items at the time that the purchase was made. Whether or not the post office agrees with the argument at the time is another question, but coupling that with a current catalog value, which will show that the purchase price was (most likely) well below the published value may win the argument.
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I just sold a cover on ebay..listed for 2.50 and sold for 38.25..i thought i would be a nice guy and insure it...my expense...i asked the postal clerk how much additional it would be over first class postage for $50 insurance..he said $2.20 more...i said slap a 47 cent stamp on the envelope and let it go first class. I never had a first class letter lost(in the United States) in 40 years.
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...and if this is the first item lost in the mail, you basically self-insured it and assumed all the risk. I would have at least sent it first class parcel to get the tracking. Too many buyers on ebay watch for sellers shipping without tracking, and file a non-receipt complaint. The seller is "SOL" without tracking.
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Use an envelope that has a bubble wrap inner liner. That makes the mailpiece a parcel. Or, you can mark a regular envelope "merchandise / non-machinable". That you may need the rule numbers I recently provided in a different post.
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The problem here is that the regulations appear to be far too complex ( and too many). Authority does not seem to realise that you cannot create a regulatory system that requires a Ph.D. in Quantum Theory to understand, and then issue a job specification which is suitable for a 16 year old school leaver to follow it.
Regrettably this is a result of Managers who are academically overqualified, and under-experienced assuming that people on minimum wage are as educated as them.
This is not confined to the USPS. Since people starting at the bottom have a "glass ceiling" beyond which they cannot progress, this phenomenon is becoming more common in big organisations worldwide.
Additionally constant modification of existing regulations create an ever deeper quagmire of confusion. At some point someone is going to have to rewrite the manual from scratch - preferably not a lawyer
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I recently received a Hong Kong stamp that I purchased from a seller on BidStart. The stamp was misidentified, with a Scott #140 posing as a Scott #128. Big catalogue price difference, so I notified the seller and he agreed to refund the purchase price. He also requested that insurance for the purchase price of $150 be obtained and that he would refund that cost also.
I went to the post office this morning and requested $150 insurance for the one ounce First Class envelope containing the stamp. The postal clerk stated that First Class Mail cannot be insured, only Priority Mail or Certified Mail. Now I checked before-hand on the USPS website and they gave me the option of purchasing insurance when calculating the cost to mail my envelope. When checking the fine print in their online manual for insurance, is says that First Class Mail can be insured but started giving all kinds of exceptions that weren't spelled out but instead referenced lots of other sections of the manual. I got totally bogged down trying to sort through these references.
So my question is: Can USA First Class Mail be sent with insurance added? Are there exceptions if this if it is possible? My mailing is a #10 envelope containing a letter and a single stamp in a glassine envelope sandwiched between two pieces of heavy light cardboard in roughly the dimensions of the envelope.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
I first encountered this same problem 2-3 years ago! I was wanting to insure a business envelope containing stamps. The clerk kept calling my item a "letter." I explained there was no letter in the envelope, but that didn't matter. I explained that the insurance option was available on their own website, but that didn't matter either. Since I was persistent and she was getting frustrated with me, she eventually checked with her supervisor. She eventually insured my "letter," but said she'd never do it again because of the "new rules."
I now use padded mailers when sending items that need to be insured. It's ridiculous, but it's the USPS.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
I just went through screen-printed every page on the USPS website from the initial page where you enter the originating ZIP Code and destination and type of mailing all the way to final page that shows all charges for a first class letter weighing one ounce, the added non-machinability charge and the insurance charge. I expect an argument again so I will then ask to see the Post Master.
I wouldn't be so frustrated but last week I mailed a package off to Canada in an old Priority Mail box. Again, I went through the USPS website, picked the appropriate dimensions for the Priority Mail box and was given a mailing cost of $24.95. So I applied the postage stamps to the box to meet this rate and went to the Post Office only to be told that the cost for mailing this Priority was $36.00! The clerk went through the process several times, but each time her computer terminal showed a $36.00 postage charge. I went home very frustrated that day. So I just went through that calculation again online on the USPS website and again came up with $24.95! I have all the screen shots of that process also printed out and ready for my next Post Office visit.
So I am probably going to request to see the Post Master no matter what. I have only had one other instance in the last 15 years that caused me this much grief. That was one clerk that refused to accept my usage of service-inscribed stamps to pay the postage of my first class mail. I would have to hand her the envelopes for her to hand-cancel, and when I handed them over, she would look at them, give me a very dirty sideways glare and proclaim that I could not use those stamps on first class mail. That took a visit with the Post Master to resolve the matter and she was not seen at the window clerking again.
It's not just the USPS, its any bureaucracy, but the bigger the bureaucracy the worse it seems to get.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
My reply here is not related to your frustration with USPS; even though I can imagine how futile these situations can be. It is my confusion over the Scott references you gave.
Would the stamps that you refer to actually be #128 and #140, for these are the two redrawn 25c GV stamps that differ only in the watermark?
If that's what you meant, I now understand how this pickle may have come about. No real excuse for the seller by the way; certainly not where there is such a BIG difference in price and identification is easy peasy. But this happens a lot on eBay and not just on these redrawn issues.
Why though does the seller want this low value stamp insured? Totally ludicrous.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Ningpo,
You are correct on the Scott numbers; I have made the correction to the original post.
The watermark was difficult to determine due to a hinge remainder. I could not see any watermark when using watermark fluid. I have a SAFE Signoscope that I use when the quick watermark fluid check does not work; the watermark was almost impossible to determine with it also. Only one half of a crown showed on the bottom right corner of the stamp, and to my eye, it looked like the Watermark 4 crown. I could not see any of the lettering in the watermark, so the block letter CA versus script CA was not available to make this determination.
The front of the stamp was very clean and had beautiful color, hence my purchase. The back of the stamp was not in as good of condition as the online description implied and impeded the watermark determination.
The seller may still be convinced it is the more expensive version of the stamp based upon his interpretation of the difficult to determine watermark.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
There are people who know this stuff better than I do, but it's my understanding that what you have to tell the clerk is that there is merchandise in the envelope. That's the part that's insurable.
I think this has worked for me in the past, but, like keesindy, I now pack things differently (a 4x6 envelope with rigidity), and then it becomes a first class package (or parcel? -- can't remember which). It is then trackable, too.
I wait and buy insurance, once I get home, from a 3rd-party shipping insurance site (usually, InsurePost.com). Cheaper than USPS, and doesn't require marking the package as insured. (In fact, they'd rather you didn't flag it as insured.) You can buy that insurance either that day or the next day after mailing, but no later than that.
The whole process (mailing something more complicated than a letter) seems way too complex, which is why I think so many people now just find the smallest flat-rate priority mail envelope or box and go with that. (But definitely more expensive.)
Good luck with this!
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
"I wait and buy insurance, once I get home, from a 3rd-party shipping insurance site (usually, InsurePost.com). Cheaper than USPS, and doesn't require marking the package as insured. (In fact, they'd rather you didn't flag it as insured.) You can buy that insurance either that day or the next day after mailing, but no later than that."
If this is correct (and I think I have read this before regarding US postal insurance), this seems the most sensible and probably a less painful approach. I like the fact that no indication of insurance has to be shown, unlike other types of registered/special delivery mails, which effectively says 'Hey, look at me - help yourself'.
okstamps wrote:
"Only one half of a crown showed on the bottom right corner of the stamp, and to my eye, it looked like the Watermark 4 crown."
So if you had this difficulty, even using that Signobeast, how come the seller was so sure he had the better of the two? This is what drives me to distraction: lazy and at times disingenuous sellers. I have been in your situation more than once on eBay. The first time, I returned the item and got nothing from the seller. Never again. The next couple of times, I immediately filed an 'item not as described' report and got refunds within the hour. I then returned the items at my cost but in ordinary mail.
I bet those sellers were a little more cautious after that.
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09:31:57pm
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Regarding the "old" priority mail box. If the box doesn't say "Flate Rate", then postage is calculated per the postage shipping table. Canada is now divided into zones, so the farther it goes, the higher the cost. I would guess that your "old" box was not a flat rate box. Your success in the previous mailing of the "old" box was probably because the clerk never noticed that the box was not a flat rate box. Recycle your old boxes and get the new ones.
Regarding insurance on first class. You can insure mailings that are sent via First Class Parcel. First Class Letter and First Class Large Envelope [corrected: that do not contain merchandise] are not insurable.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Michael,
If a First Class envelope is not insurable, why does the USPS website that allows one to calculate the cost to send a letter (I checked the letter box and entered a one ounce weight, but also indicated that it was non-machinable) allow one to ask for the cost for a level of insurance for that piece of mail? You may be right, but the USPS website appears to disagree. As Philatariumm stated, I may have to indicate that merchandise is included within the envelope and not just a letter.
This has gotten to be an itch that I just have to scratch; I am going to pursue this First Class Mail that can't be insured issue until I have a absolute definition of the does and don'ts from my local postal officials. Those are the people that I have to deal with and I will end up having to follow their rules even if they are arbitrary.
I did a quick check online about the insurance through InsurePost.com. Their insurance rates are cheaper than that of the USPS, but you still have to purchase some type of tracking service from the USPS before you can get insurance through InsurePost.com. So the combination of USPS tracking and InsurePost.com insurance will still cost more than just simple insurance from the USPS.
It just seems wrong to me that you have to bundle up one stamp in a box or a padded envelope just to be able to send it with insurance. It's higher cost packaging and it's more wasteful in regards to the amount of physical material needed for the packaging. It's also more expensive for the USPS to handle because it is larger and weighs more. This may be a fool's errand on my part, but I am going to keep after it until the local USPS people beat me into submission.
In regards to the box that I sent to Canada, you are correct Michael. The Priority Mail boxes I have do not state that they are flat-rate boxes. The postage rate for a box (non-flat-rate) sent by Priority Mail to that address in Canada is $36.00 for the given weight rather than the $24.95 for the flat-rate box. My problem was that I used the old Priority Mail box because I didn't want to be wasteful, didn't understand the standard box versus flat-rate box packaging and then applied to postage stamps to the box before I went to the Post Office assuming I had calculated the correct rate. It was then too late to change the packaging to get the less expensive rate without throwing away nearly $25 in postage stamps that had already been applied.
No need for anyone to reply to my post. I think this is just me expressing my frustration and not really asking for any more help at this point.
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03:03:29am
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
I think I have found the answer. It isn't easy reading the Domestic Mail Manual, which is why there's so much confusion over USPS rules.
Copied from the USPS Domestic Mail Manual Part 503 regarding insured mail:
Section 4.3.1 e.
"First-Class Mail, First-Class Package Service, and Priority Mail may be insured, if it contains matter that is eligible to be mailed at Standard Mail, USPS Retail Ground, or Package Services prices."
Section 4.3.2 e. states what types of mail may not be insured.
"Matter mailed at First-Class Mail prices (including Priority Mail) that consists of items described in 123.3.0,133.3.0, 223.3.0, and 233.2.0, and required to be mailed at First-Class Mail prices."
I read the exceptions, and it basically refers to business and personal papers, bills, statements, letters, etc. That tends to agree with Philatariumm's advice to mark the envelope "merchandise enclosed" that should be acceptable.
Here is a link to Part 503 of the DMM. Scroll down a little bit to Section 1.4. You will see a table that indicates what extra services are available for various classes of mail. It clearly shows that first class mail that is not excluded by 4.3.2 e. may be sent insured. You may want to print it out to show it to the clerk.
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/503.htm#1233286
I know that the next time I have a similar first class mailing, I will bring this up to the attention of the clerk if they reject my mail from being insured. I have been told this for many years by several different clerks and supervisors at different post offices.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
"In regards to the box that I sent to Canada, you are correct Michael. The Priority Mail boxes I have do not state that they are flat-rate boxes. The postage rate for a box (non-flat-rate) sent by Priority Mail to that address in Canada is $36.00 for the given weight rather than the $24.95 for the flat-rate box. My problem was that I used the old Priority Mail box because I didn't want to be wasteful, didn't understand the standard box versus flat-rate box packaging and then applied to postage stamps to the box before I went to the Post Office assuming I had calculated the correct rate. "
I haven't had this experience, but easily could have. I had no idea the older boxes I have couldn't be used as "Flat Rate" boxes. What a waste!
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
"Here is a link to Part 503 of the DMM. Scroll down a little bit to Section 1.4. You will see a table that indicates what extra services are available for various classes of mail. It clearly shows that first class mail that is not excluded by 4.3.2 e. may be sent insured. You may want to print it out to show it to the clerk.
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/503.htm#1233286
I know that the next time I have a similar first class mailing, I will bring this up to the attention of the clerk if they reject my mail from being insured. I have been told this for many years by several different clerks and supervisors at different post offices."
Well, well, well.............Good job, Michael. I had tried to find something like this in the past, but soon gave up. I appreciate the fact you took the time to find and share this. Now we can begin educating all the clerks we deal with.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Vindication!
I went back to the Post Office this afternoon to mail the letter and Hong Kong stamp except that I was just going to give up and ask to have the envelope mailed Certified Mail instead of Insured, then get the insurance from InsurePost.com when I got home. The stamps that I had already applied to pay for the insurance would cover the Certified Mail charge with a little bit left over as a gift to the USPS.
There were two clerks working this afternoon, with one of them being the lady that had insisted I could not send my First Class envelope with insurance. As luck would have it, she was the first one available when my turn for service came up.
She totally surprised me by immediately apologizing, explaining that she had checked with the other clerk after I had left yesterday and that he had explained that as long as there was insurable merchandize in the envelope, it could be mailed with insurance. So she applied the insurance sticker, carefully canceled the stamps that I had applied because "I know how that is how you guys like them!" and then attached a "NON-MACHINABLE" sticky when I explained that there were two cardboard inserts to protect the stamp and that I had applied the 21 Cent stamp to cover charge for
that service.
So in the end this turned into a very satisfying transaction and I now know for certain now how to handle the First Class Insurance question - just state that merchandise that is insurable is enclosed within the envelope. I don't believe that this will be a problem anymore at my post office.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
That's really encouraging! Maybe enough problems arose at enough post offices around the country that someone realized the need for clarification and training. Or not. We'll see.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Many years ago I wanted to insure a stamp shipment in a flat envelope. The clerk told me that currency and stamps were only insurable at face value, not collector value.
I've also seen eBay situations where packages arrived damaged and the insurance claims denied because the shipper used a reused box. Either a box that came with product in it, reused for mailing, or a Priority Mail box that was used twice.
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10:10:02pm
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
I found the information in Part 609 of the USPS Domestic Mail Manual regarding filing a claim for loss regarding insured mailing of postage stamps.
However, first I want to point out Section 3.2 f. relating to proof of value:
"For Internet transactions conducted through a Web-based payment network that offers payment services through a stored value account, provide a computer printout of the online transaction identifying the purchaser and seller, price paid, date of transaction, description of item purchased, and assurance that the transaction status is completed. The printout must clearly identify the Web-based payment network provider through which the Internet transaction was conducted."
I receive a large number of shipments of stamp purchases where the seller does not include a packing slip. I always include a packing slip with my shipments. I view it as a seller's responsibility and a courtesy to the buyer. Packing slips also contain the name and address of the buyer and seller. If something happens to the outside of the mail piece to where the addresses are unreadable, the post office will open the piece to attempt to find something that contains names and addresses so that the piece can be delivered. I even do this by enclosing a small note when I send free items to people.
Section 4 concerns Claims. 4.1 g, specifically mentions how a claim for lost or damaged postage stamps are payable:
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
I think an argument can be made that the price paid for the stamps as stated on the packing slip, copy of invoice, etc. was the fair market price for the items at the time that the purchase was made. Whether or not the post office agrees with the argument at the time is another question, but coupling that with a current catalog value, which will show that the purchase price was (most likely) well below the published value may win the argument.
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re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
I just sold a cover on ebay..listed for 2.50 and sold for 38.25..i thought i would be a nice guy and insure it...my expense...i asked the postal clerk how much additional it would be over first class postage for $50 insurance..he said $2.20 more...i said slap a 47 cent stamp on the envelope and let it go first class. I never had a first class letter lost(in the United States) in 40 years.
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08:38:35pm
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
...and if this is the first item lost in the mail, you basically self-insured it and assumed all the risk. I would have at least sent it first class parcel to get the tracking. Too many buyers on ebay watch for sellers shipping without tracking, and file a non-receipt complaint. The seller is "SOL" without tracking.
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01:04:00am
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
Use an envelope that has a bubble wrap inner liner. That makes the mailpiece a parcel. Or, you can mark a regular envelope "merchandise / non-machinable". That you may need the rule numbers I recently provided in a different post.
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12:46:14pm
re: Insurance for First Class Mail in USA
The problem here is that the regulations appear to be far too complex ( and too many). Authority does not seem to realise that you cannot create a regulatory system that requires a Ph.D. in Quantum Theory to understand, and then issue a job specification which is suitable for a 16 year old school leaver to follow it.
Regrettably this is a result of Managers who are academically overqualified, and under-experienced assuming that people on minimum wage are as educated as them.
This is not confined to the USPS. Since people starting at the bottom have a "glass ceiling" beyond which they cannot progress, this phenomenon is becoming more common in big organisations worldwide.
Additionally constant modification of existing regulations create an ever deeper quagmire of confusion. At some point someone is going to have to rewrite the manual from scratch - preferably not a lawyer
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