Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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When Janet Klug was APS President, she spear-headed a big membership push. It got up to over 50,000. Then after, problems with many members over the decisions of the Executive Board, especially over the purchase of the Match Factory, caused a great many to drop out of the APS. Membership has been on an overall decline ever since.
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The decline in APS membership matches exactly with the growth of the internet. APS has traditionally added value by offering access to information, this put them in direct competition with the internet. Stamp collectors tend to be a ‘thrifty’ bunch; why spend money on accessing information when much of it is largely now available for free and in real-time?
This forum is a good example; folks can ask all kinds of questions and get feedback within an hour or two. 30 years ago this capability only existed if you had a local stamp dealer. And of course the growth of the internet has also lead to the decline of brick and mortar dealers, auction houses, and probably stamp shows to a degree. Additionally, it has also greatly impacted the philatelic publishing industry.
Some folks argue that they think the hobby itself is declining; I disagree with this opinion. I think our hobby has simply undergone a huge metamorphosis in the traditional ways we interface with our hobby. I feel online hobbyists are currently underrepresented by a lot of the ‘old school’ institutions who continue to struggle with figuring out how to evolve to meet this challenge.
At the risk of being negative, I do not expect many of the traditional philatelic approaches to survive this evolution. But in their place many independent, grassroots resources (like this forum) will continue to rise to support the explosion of online philately.
Don
APS #094826
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This is from Linn's Stamp News on stamp market values. The peak in values meant more activity (collectors too, many doing it for gain ). The membership decline followed a different trend and had more factors as noted by Don.
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Rather interesting that the hobby was on the upswing during the recession. We found in the model car hobby that our show attendance was also up during this period. It seemed with tough times people were not spending a lot of money on fancy vacations etc, but were finding solace in quiet hobbies.
Also in this swing are the baby boomers retiring. These are people who understand traditional hobbies but may not have had the time to be involved while raising families and working. Now in retirement they return to things they like to do.
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I have been a member of the APS since 2004. I really enjoy "The American Philatelist". I collect United States, along with other countries and topicals, so I do get something out of it.
I get a great deal on a US book for my library (I buy one each winter when I renew my membership). The staff at the APS is always helpful in getting the lowest postal rate to get the book out to me.
I especially like the enforced code of ethics, which allows me, by presenting my APS membership, no problem in dealing with other collectors.
And, for the record, my buddy, Phil Bruno, sponsored my application to the APS.
David in Ottawa, Canada.
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I met Janet Klug when she brought a couple of carloads of stamp collectors up from Cincinati to the APS sales division and we just happened to be there, and of course would see her at APS shows. She is just a down to earth Lady..it could not have been easy for her with the crazy politics when they decided to leave the State College location and purchase the remains of the match factory.
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Chris,
I do not think that stamp collecting has ever been a predominately ‘social’ hobby. It seems to me to be more of a solitary hobby. Lugging cartons of albums, catalogs and/or expensive material about can be quite logistically challenging. Heck, even when I simply want to go lunch with a fellow stamp collector I think twice about dragging material to the restaurant. Instead many of us spread our hobby out on the kitchen table and in our own dens. And for most rural folks attending club meetings and shows often involves significant travel and related costs. The demographics of our hobby is also a factor; as we get older medical issues become challenging. (Any time I want to plan a trip to a show it has to include a few hours working on setting up dialysis treatment in a distant city.)
I do not understand why you say that you are not sure how APS could better serve ‘internet only’ hobbyists. Obviously we have discussed this for months and months on the various forums and hate to rehash all the online improvements that have been suggested. Here is one idea, how about they implement the online World Stamp Identifier tool that they asked me to develop? Here is how the time line has dragged on now for over a year.
March 13, 2016 – Working Beta version delivered to APS
April 15, 2016 – APS IT contractor (Link) asks for and receives technical requirements for tool, verifies that they can support it without any additional infrastructure costs
May 2016 – APS does not get it implemented for the World Show so instead they access it through Stamp Smarter. It was very well received at the show.
July 2016 - Ken Martin at APS gets involved and asks me for the source code; it is sent to him the same day.
Sept 2016 – Another APS staffer contacts me and asks me why it isn’t yet online. This generates a number of emails, the IT contractor is asked for an update for his Oct 4 visit.
Oct 11, 2016 – Link asks for additional configuration info indicating work is proceeding
Nov 9, 2016 – Link gets the tool up and running on APS server and I review it for them.
It is now March 2017 and the tool has yet to be published publicly. Note that this was not for any development of the tool, this was for only to implement the tool after it was delivered to them. Frankly this should have taken perhaps an hour or two. But to answer your question, here is one simple thing they could have done to better serve ‘internet only’ hobbyists.
Don
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Chris is correct about the greater isolation in the suburbs...there are 8 houses on our street and there is no interaction ...even with people with children of similar age. I guess no one needs you to hold a ladder anymore or borrow an onion...i am not saying that people should gossip...but i guess everyone assumes that everyone else has the same information they do .Cars come home..garage doors open and the people are gone before they can even wave to one another. I grew up in a rural area in the 1950s and it was wonderful...EVERYONE knew what went on within 12 miles !
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I've lived up north and I've lived in the rural deep south and pretty much everything in between. One of the things I liked about the north is that people seem to have been raised to mind their own damn business. We were always raised that it was rude to pry and ask someone a bunch of questions. I love shootin' the breeze with folks but really and truly I don't care what people do. Small towns here thrive on learning, knowing and talking about what other people are doing. I couldn't care less.
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Don, I am sure there is some reason for the delays but would be interested to hear the story.
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Back to the original discussion, I do think the Internet is a major factor in the decline of A LOT of things including memberships in many societies. This is not only in the stamp world, but I have experienced this in various professional societies as well. Just as was mentioned by a previous poster, think about the reasons why you might want (or wanted to in the past) to join a particular society. Most of these reasons are information (the society's magazine, journal, newsletter, etc.) and a "sense of community" with people of like interests. Both of these are now mostly available online for free.
In terms of the decline in "brick and mortar" stamp dealer stores, we are already also starting to see a decline in all kinds of "brick and mortar" stores (think of bookstores, Sears, JC Penney's, etc.) where you can easily order stuff online.
In terms of stamp collector numbers, it would be interesting to see a graph of member numbers over time to this and other online stamp collecting forums.
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Hey Chris! It would be pretty handy to have an Internet startup next door! Need help with an Excel formula? Just go next door! Be thankful that the young guys are working on something industrious and not turning out batches of meth!
I'd take a walk over to the house and speak with the son in charge. Explain that running a business out of the house is illegal, but that you are cool with that as long as they follow some basic rules of respect for the neighborhood.
In our old town in NJ, there were rules against running businesses out of your home, keeping commercial vehicles on the property etc. Our neighbor across the way had an Italian sausage business, that set up at flea markets, fairs and such. They were very nice people and very respectful of everyone around them. They had a tall fence and kept the truck and trailer hidden. They'd apologize if they left it on the street overnight.
There were signs that they were running a business. The neighborhood had the pleasant smell of tomato sauce a few nights a week. Occasionally their bakery would leave 100 cases of rolls on my front porch. But they were good people earning their living so we all were good with it. Oh, and when we went to the flea market we could always count on a free sausage sandwich!
My current home has an HOA that regulates a lot of activities and visual distractions. They also hold an annual holiday dinner where we met some of our neighbors. They also do an annual garage sale. There are 100 homes, and we all communicate on an email chain. When kids smeared doggie doo on our mailbox, we hit the chain and immediately a few other neighbors responded, thinking they were the only one. A neighbor down the street wrote in that they came home from the airport at 3am and there were 3 kids standing on the corner. Before long, embarrassed parents figured out it was their kids and we had two little felons scrubbing the mail box.
This is the kind of neighborhood where every car waves at you. We know the neighbors in the general area, and have been invited to parties. Later today I will use my snow blower to dig out the single lady next door. There will be 4-5 of us with different size machines, working together to make sure everyone can get out. I have a huge one so I'll do the initial pass with a couple of guys with smaller machines following for the final clearing. Neighbors are friendly and keep a reasonable distance. It's pretty good here!
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I am not sure that I agree that the internet directly influences existing society membership. However I think that it is a barrier to new collectors joining especially the younger generation. At almost 70, I am not particularly computer savvy, but I am happy surfing the web, however those younger who are familiar with computers from school and work,seem not to need face-to-face contact. Yet with the upsurge in social media ( with all it's problems ) there is probably more human interaction than ever before, and it is far easier to "talk" to like-minded hobbyists ( and a wider selection of them).
The information angle also needs to be considered. There is a huge body of knowledge on the web, both permanently available, and to "pick-the-brains" of the experts,almost in real time.Those experts (including many dealers ) who populate the net,are almost all happy to share their specialist knowledge, even when they have little expectation of making a sale.
However it is not all doom and gloom in the personal contact department. Most of still want to see and touch(metaphorically )purchases which are at the pricier end of their budget.
I think though that the increase in "private use" of the internet for hobbies at the expense of more public presence tends to lead us all to underestimate the number of active collectors ( and other hobbyists ).
Malcolm
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Auctions
This is what the American Philatelist looked like when i joined around 1972..the membership in February 72 was 26,416...less than it is now...so there must have been a big uptick in the 1980s or so !
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11:30:51am
re: American Philatelist April 1972
When Janet Klug was APS President, she spear-headed a big membership push. It got up to over 50,000. Then after, problems with many members over the decisions of the Executive Board, especially over the purchase of the Match Factory, caused a great many to drop out of the APS. Membership has been on an overall decline ever since.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
The decline in APS membership matches exactly with the growth of the internet. APS has traditionally added value by offering access to information, this put them in direct competition with the internet. Stamp collectors tend to be a ‘thrifty’ bunch; why spend money on accessing information when much of it is largely now available for free and in real-time?
This forum is a good example; folks can ask all kinds of questions and get feedback within an hour or two. 30 years ago this capability only existed if you had a local stamp dealer. And of course the growth of the internet has also lead to the decline of brick and mortar dealers, auction houses, and probably stamp shows to a degree. Additionally, it has also greatly impacted the philatelic publishing industry.
Some folks argue that they think the hobby itself is declining; I disagree with this opinion. I think our hobby has simply undergone a huge metamorphosis in the traditional ways we interface with our hobby. I feel online hobbyists are currently underrepresented by a lot of the ‘old school’ institutions who continue to struggle with figuring out how to evolve to meet this challenge.
At the risk of being negative, I do not expect many of the traditional philatelic approaches to survive this evolution. But in their place many independent, grassroots resources (like this forum) will continue to rise to support the explosion of online philately.
Don
APS #094826
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: American Philatelist April 1972
This is from Linn's Stamp News on stamp market values. The peak in values meant more activity (collectors too, many doing it for gain ). The membership decline followed a different trend and had more factors as noted by Don.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Rather interesting that the hobby was on the upswing during the recession. We found in the model car hobby that our show attendance was also up during this period. It seemed with tough times people were not spending a lot of money on fancy vacations etc, but were finding solace in quiet hobbies.
Also in this swing are the baby boomers retiring. These are people who understand traditional hobbies but may not have had the time to be involved while raising families and working. Now in retirement they return to things they like to do.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
I have been a member of the APS since 2004. I really enjoy "The American Philatelist". I collect United States, along with other countries and topicals, so I do get something out of it.
I get a great deal on a US book for my library (I buy one each winter when I renew my membership). The staff at the APS is always helpful in getting the lowest postal rate to get the book out to me.
I especially like the enforced code of ethics, which allows me, by presenting my APS membership, no problem in dealing with other collectors.
And, for the record, my buddy, Phil Bruno, sponsored my application to the APS.
David in Ottawa, Canada.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: American Philatelist April 1972
I met Janet Klug when she brought a couple of carloads of stamp collectors up from Cincinati to the APS sales division and we just happened to be there, and of course would see her at APS shows. She is just a down to earth Lady..it could not have been easy for her with the crazy politics when they decided to leave the State College location and purchase the remains of the match factory.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Chris,
I do not think that stamp collecting has ever been a predominately ‘social’ hobby. It seems to me to be more of a solitary hobby. Lugging cartons of albums, catalogs and/or expensive material about can be quite logistically challenging. Heck, even when I simply want to go lunch with a fellow stamp collector I think twice about dragging material to the restaurant. Instead many of us spread our hobby out on the kitchen table and in our own dens. And for most rural folks attending club meetings and shows often involves significant travel and related costs. The demographics of our hobby is also a factor; as we get older medical issues become challenging. (Any time I want to plan a trip to a show it has to include a few hours working on setting up dialysis treatment in a distant city.)
I do not understand why you say that you are not sure how APS could better serve ‘internet only’ hobbyists. Obviously we have discussed this for months and months on the various forums and hate to rehash all the online improvements that have been suggested. Here is one idea, how about they implement the online World Stamp Identifier tool that they asked me to develop? Here is how the time line has dragged on now for over a year.
March 13, 2016 – Working Beta version delivered to APS
April 15, 2016 – APS IT contractor (Link) asks for and receives technical requirements for tool, verifies that they can support it without any additional infrastructure costs
May 2016 – APS does not get it implemented for the World Show so instead they access it through Stamp Smarter. It was very well received at the show.
July 2016 - Ken Martin at APS gets involved and asks me for the source code; it is sent to him the same day.
Sept 2016 – Another APS staffer contacts me and asks me why it isn’t yet online. This generates a number of emails, the IT contractor is asked for an update for his Oct 4 visit.
Oct 11, 2016 – Link asks for additional configuration info indicating work is proceeding
Nov 9, 2016 – Link gets the tool up and running on APS server and I review it for them.
It is now March 2017 and the tool has yet to be published publicly. Note that this was not for any development of the tool, this was for only to implement the tool after it was delivered to them. Frankly this should have taken perhaps an hour or two. But to answer your question, here is one simple thing they could have done to better serve ‘internet only’ hobbyists.
Don
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Auctions
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Chris is correct about the greater isolation in the suburbs...there are 8 houses on our street and there is no interaction ...even with people with children of similar age. I guess no one needs you to hold a ladder anymore or borrow an onion...i am not saying that people should gossip...but i guess everyone assumes that everyone else has the same information they do .Cars come home..garage doors open and the people are gone before they can even wave to one another. I grew up in a rural area in the 1950s and it was wonderful...EVERYONE knew what went on within 12 miles !
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06:13:04pm
re: American Philatelist April 1972
I've lived up north and I've lived in the rural deep south and pretty much everything in between. One of the things I liked about the north is that people seem to have been raised to mind their own damn business. We were always raised that it was rude to pry and ask someone a bunch of questions. I love shootin' the breeze with folks but really and truly I don't care what people do. Small towns here thrive on learning, knowing and talking about what other people are doing. I couldn't care less.
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this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Don, I am sure there is some reason for the delays but would be interested to hear the story.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Back to the original discussion, I do think the Internet is a major factor in the decline of A LOT of things including memberships in many societies. This is not only in the stamp world, but I have experienced this in various professional societies as well. Just as was mentioned by a previous poster, think about the reasons why you might want (or wanted to in the past) to join a particular society. Most of these reasons are information (the society's magazine, journal, newsletter, etc.) and a "sense of community" with people of like interests. Both of these are now mostly available online for free.
In terms of the decline in "brick and mortar" stamp dealer stores, we are already also starting to see a decline in all kinds of "brick and mortar" stores (think of bookstores, Sears, JC Penney's, etc.) where you can easily order stuff online.
In terms of stamp collector numbers, it would be interesting to see a graph of member numbers over time to this and other online stamp collecting forums.
Login to Like
this post
re: American Philatelist April 1972
Hey Chris! It would be pretty handy to have an Internet startup next door! Need help with an Excel formula? Just go next door! Be thankful that the young guys are working on something industrious and not turning out batches of meth!
I'd take a walk over to the house and speak with the son in charge. Explain that running a business out of the house is illegal, but that you are cool with that as long as they follow some basic rules of respect for the neighborhood.
In our old town in NJ, there were rules against running businesses out of your home, keeping commercial vehicles on the property etc. Our neighbor across the way had an Italian sausage business, that set up at flea markets, fairs and such. They were very nice people and very respectful of everyone around them. They had a tall fence and kept the truck and trailer hidden. They'd apologize if they left it on the street overnight.
There were signs that they were running a business. The neighborhood had the pleasant smell of tomato sauce a few nights a week. Occasionally their bakery would leave 100 cases of rolls on my front porch. But they were good people earning their living so we all were good with it. Oh, and when we went to the flea market we could always count on a free sausage sandwich!
My current home has an HOA that regulates a lot of activities and visual distractions. They also hold an annual holiday dinner where we met some of our neighbors. They also do an annual garage sale. There are 100 homes, and we all communicate on an email chain. When kids smeared doggie doo on our mailbox, we hit the chain and immediately a few other neighbors responded, thinking they were the only one. A neighbor down the street wrote in that they came home from the airport at 3am and there were 3 kids standing on the corner. Before long, embarrassed parents figured out it was their kids and we had two little felons scrubbing the mail box.
This is the kind of neighborhood where every car waves at you. We know the neighbors in the general area, and have been invited to parties. Later today I will use my snow blower to dig out the single lady next door. There will be 4-5 of us with different size machines, working together to make sure everyone can get out. I have a huge one so I'll do the initial pass with a couple of guys with smaller machines following for the final clearing. Neighbors are friendly and keep a reasonable distance. It's pretty good here!
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05:43:55pm
re: American Philatelist April 1972
I am not sure that I agree that the internet directly influences existing society membership. However I think that it is a barrier to new collectors joining especially the younger generation. At almost 70, I am not particularly computer savvy, but I am happy surfing the web, however those younger who are familiar with computers from school and work,seem not to need face-to-face contact. Yet with the upsurge in social media ( with all it's problems ) there is probably more human interaction than ever before, and it is far easier to "talk" to like-minded hobbyists ( and a wider selection of them).
The information angle also needs to be considered. There is a huge body of knowledge on the web, both permanently available, and to "pick-the-brains" of the experts,almost in real time.Those experts (including many dealers ) who populate the net,are almost all happy to share their specialist knowledge, even when they have little expectation of making a sale.
However it is not all doom and gloom in the personal contact department. Most of still want to see and touch(metaphorically )purchases which are at the pricier end of their budget.
I think though that the increase in "private use" of the internet for hobbies at the expense of more public presence tends to lead us all to underestimate the number of active collectors ( and other hobbyists ).
Malcolm
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