Yes, nr, proofs tend to be lower-priced than their progeny. Which brings the scarcer issues in reach for us average Joes. I tend to think of them as really, really nice spacefillers. Here are a couple from my collection:
I have since acquired the regular issue 90c 1869 Pictorial, but the $3 and $4 Columbians remain elusive. I have come close to snapping up the $4 Columbian proof, but it's been an on-again, off-again quest...
-Paul
Here's one more set from my collection:
There are a some fairly good forgeries out there of this series, so be careful.
Most of us would consider the regular issues of these stamps to be Unobtainium.
-Paul
My favorite stamps of all are the 19th century U.S. proofs and are the last stamps I would ever get rid of. I have never understood their low cat value compared to the issued stamps. About 27 years ago my main dealer got in a pretty complete coverage of the main issues and I purchased all that I could afford. I feel they are superior to the regular issued stamps. 1. they are the first stamps to be printed by the new plates resulting in the best images. 2. They were only sold to collectors so they were always kept safe and in near perfect condition. 3. they were not perforated or gummed so they did not suffer problems to these aspects.
Card proofs are the cheapest of proofs and are almost always much cheaper than the issued stamps. Large and small die proofs may or may not be cheaper than the regular issues. Although catalog values are quite different you will pay closer to full catalog value for proofs than you will for the issued stamps.
There are also color trial proofs printed in different colors than the issued stamp so there is a large variety of proofs to work with. Color trial proofs were printed so the authorities could choose a color for the stamps to be printed in.
As few as the proofs were made originally their numbers continue to decrease. Many shady characters modify proofs to resemble the issued stamps thus decreasing their numbers My advice is to go for it and obtain all the 19th century proofs you can afford. I cannot see how proofs can help increasing in value.
Below are most of the proofs that I have.
I agree that proofs are EXCELLENT place holders, but a collection of proofs like Antonius has is also a worthy endeavor because I agree that they are undervalued.
I use them exclusively as placeholders, and I now have only two:
But why not do as Paul and I did: Use the proofs to fill the spaces and sell them when you get the real thing. Or do as Antonius did and create a beautiful collection of proofs.
Yes, by all means, go for the proofs!
Lars
What fine fine collections! I see a lot of proofs on cards and I have bought a few. They are nearly perfect, maybe previously hindged. The paper itn't hardly toned if at all. There must be fakes out there? Is it a problem?
Here's one of mine. Sorry for the frame I'm sure that's taboo here.
I was a photographer of stamps before collecting
"There must be fakes out there? Is it a problem?"
Good advise thanks Lars. Here's another new one. Well for me they are all new! Again sorry about the frames.
!
Were the proofs even back then like coins are today, primarily produced for collectors or were they used to give the nod to start production?
Nelson, for what it's worth, I think your frames look FABULOUS!!!
I'll see if I can scare up some images of fakes of the large State Dept proofs...
I remember that, when I was chasing these proofs, I encountered several. They are subtle, but not so hard to detect with careful study.
-Paul
The frames don't detract at all. The photographs are excellent - at least on my screens the level of detail is amazing (the engraving lines give a reptile-like appearance to some of the skin areas).
I am wondering about the statement about being a stamp photographer before becoming a collector. Was that a hobby or a job?
Thanks for sharing and keep posting.
Here is a side-by-side comparison of a genuine and forged State Department revenue:
There are vast differences in the execution of the ornaments in the corners, and in the letters. Look at the left hand "U.S.of A." and the "DOLLARS".
-Paul
FYI, The easiest way to spot an altered proof from an issued stamp is the color of the paper. Proofs have a very White paper compared to the off-White of the finished stamps.
It is quite easy to tell the difference but many collectors fail to note the difference and become easily fooled.
Essays are pre-stamp drawings from which the issued stamp is selected. Trial color proofs are then made in different colors of the selected essay to decide what the issued stamp will be. The final proofs are either given away to different organizations or sold to dealers or collectors.
To follow on Antonius' comments, here is a color trial proof, currently offered on eBay:
Lovely! (and VERY spendy). Seller says it's one of ten existant.
-Paul
I am wondering about the statement about being a stamp photographer before becoming a collector. Was that a hobby or a job?
Thanks for the comment above. I still haven't figured out how to "quote"
I photograph items I own as a hobby. No rhyme or reason to it. No special skills just started framing stuff to post on Flickr and now it's hard to post anything unframed!
You might take a look at the Roosevelt presentation album digital exhibit on Stamp Smarter and compiled by Richard Segal.
Roosevelt presentation albums were produced in early 1903 and contain die proofs of stamps meant to represent all the stamps issued by the United States Post Office until that time. They were produced by Third Assistant Postmaster General Edwin C. Madden using original dies from the Bureau of Engraving & Printing and given as gifts to influential friends of President Teddy Roosevelt and a very select few others. Only 85 albums were produced.
Note: Richard used very high resolution images, so the page loads slow. The page will appear like it is on a black background until all the images load (20-30 seconds). But once the images load, you click on each image to see the full size version in a new window.
http://www.stampsmarter.com/proof/Home_proofs.html
Don
how to quote
"I still haven't figured out how to "quote""
Nelson to "quote", highlight the text and click on the quote button shown in the format button bar which is below the text box where you are putting your message.
"There are vast differences in the execution of the ornaments in the corners, and in the letters. Look at the left hand "U.S.of A." and the "DOLLARS"."
"You might take a look at the Roosevelt presentation album digital exhibit on Stamp Smarter and compiled by Richard Segal."
Hey roy,
Yes, I appreciated that the stamp is a 'disclosed' fake with the FACSIMILE marking, but that just proves it's not genuine for the sake of comparison. I have seen the same printings without the FACSIMILE marking, which would tag them true forgeries, in my book. Printed with a the (possible) intention of deceiving.
Thanks,
Paul
"Yes, I appreciated that the stamp is a 'disclosed' fake with the FACSIMILE marking, but that just proves it's not genuine for the sake of comparison."
Hello Everyone,
What makes these beautiful images far cheaper than their issued counterparts that were made my the millions? These have to be scarce. Is it a sleeping category? Anything I should know before jumping in with both feet?
Thanks
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Yes, nr, proofs tend to be lower-priced than their progeny. Which brings the scarcer issues in reach for us average Joes. I tend to think of them as really, really nice spacefillers. Here are a couple from my collection:
I have since acquired the regular issue 90c 1869 Pictorial, but the $3 and $4 Columbians remain elusive. I have come close to snapping up the $4 Columbian proof, but it's been an on-again, off-again quest...
-Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Here's one more set from my collection:
There are a some fairly good forgeries out there of this series, so be careful.
Most of us would consider the regular issues of these stamps to be Unobtainium.
-Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
My favorite stamps of all are the 19th century U.S. proofs and are the last stamps I would ever get rid of. I have never understood their low cat value compared to the issued stamps. About 27 years ago my main dealer got in a pretty complete coverage of the main issues and I purchased all that I could afford. I feel they are superior to the regular issued stamps. 1. they are the first stamps to be printed by the new plates resulting in the best images. 2. They were only sold to collectors so they were always kept safe and in near perfect condition. 3. they were not perforated or gummed so they did not suffer problems to these aspects.
Card proofs are the cheapest of proofs and are almost always much cheaper than the issued stamps. Large and small die proofs may or may not be cheaper than the regular issues. Although catalog values are quite different you will pay closer to full catalog value for proofs than you will for the issued stamps.
There are also color trial proofs printed in different colors than the issued stamp so there is a large variety of proofs to work with. Color trial proofs were printed so the authorities could choose a color for the stamps to be printed in.
As few as the proofs were made originally their numbers continue to decrease. Many shady characters modify proofs to resemble the issued stamps thus decreasing their numbers My advice is to go for it and obtain all the 19th century proofs you can afford. I cannot see how proofs can help increasing in value.
Below are most of the proofs that I have.
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
I agree that proofs are EXCELLENT place holders, but a collection of proofs like Antonius has is also a worthy endeavor because I agree that they are undervalued.
I use them exclusively as placeholders, and I now have only two:
But why not do as Paul and I did: Use the proofs to fill the spaces and sell them when you get the real thing. Or do as Antonius did and create a beautiful collection of proofs.
Yes, by all means, go for the proofs!
Lars
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
What fine fine collections! I see a lot of proofs on cards and I have bought a few. They are nearly perfect, maybe previously hindged. The paper itn't hardly toned if at all. There must be fakes out there? Is it a problem?
Here's one of mine. Sorry for the frame I'm sure that's taboo here.
I was a photographer of stamps before collecting
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
"There must be fakes out there? Is it a problem?"
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Good advise thanks Lars. Here's another new one. Well for me they are all new! Again sorry about the frames.
!
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Were the proofs even back then like coins are today, primarily produced for collectors or were they used to give the nod to start production?
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Nelson, for what it's worth, I think your frames look FABULOUS!!!
I'll see if I can scare up some images of fakes of the large State Dept proofs...
I remember that, when I was chasing these proofs, I encountered several. They are subtle, but not so hard to detect with careful study.
-Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
The frames don't detract at all. The photographs are excellent - at least on my screens the level of detail is amazing (the engraving lines give a reptile-like appearance to some of the skin areas).
I am wondering about the statement about being a stamp photographer before becoming a collector. Was that a hobby or a job?
Thanks for sharing and keep posting.
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Here is a side-by-side comparison of a genuine and forged State Department revenue:
There are vast differences in the execution of the ornaments in the corners, and in the letters. Look at the left hand "U.S.of A." and the "DOLLARS".
-Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
FYI, The easiest way to spot an altered proof from an issued stamp is the color of the paper. Proofs have a very White paper compared to the off-White of the finished stamps.
It is quite easy to tell the difference but many collectors fail to note the difference and become easily fooled.
Essays are pre-stamp drawings from which the issued stamp is selected. Trial color proofs are then made in different colors of the selected essay to decide what the issued stamp will be. The final proofs are either given away to different organizations or sold to dealers or collectors.
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
To follow on Antonius' comments, here is a color trial proof, currently offered on eBay:
Lovely! (and VERY spendy). Seller says it's one of ten existant.
-Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
I am wondering about the statement about being a stamp photographer before becoming a collector. Was that a hobby or a job?
Thanks for the comment above. I still haven't figured out how to "quote"
I photograph items I own as a hobby. No rhyme or reason to it. No special skills just started framing stuff to post on Flickr and now it's hard to post anything unframed!
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
You might take a look at the Roosevelt presentation album digital exhibit on Stamp Smarter and compiled by Richard Segal.
Roosevelt presentation albums were produced in early 1903 and contain die proofs of stamps meant to represent all the stamps issued by the United States Post Office until that time. They were produced by Third Assistant Postmaster General Edwin C. Madden using original dies from the Bureau of Engraving & Printing and given as gifts to influential friends of President Teddy Roosevelt and a very select few others. Only 85 albums were produced.
Note: Richard used very high resolution images, so the page loads slow. The page will appear like it is on a black background until all the images load (20-30 seconds). But once the images load, you click on each image to see the full size version in a new window.
http://www.stampsmarter.com/proof/Home_proofs.html
Don
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
how to quote
"I still haven't figured out how to "quote""
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Nelson to "quote", highlight the text and click on the quote button shown in the format button bar which is below the text box where you are putting your message.
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
"There are vast differences in the execution of the ornaments in the corners, and in the letters. Look at the left hand "U.S.of A." and the "DOLLARS"."
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
"You might take a look at the Roosevelt presentation album digital exhibit on Stamp Smarter and compiled by Richard Segal."
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
Hey roy,
Yes, I appreciated that the stamp is a 'disclosed' fake with the FACSIMILE marking, but that just proves it's not genuine for the sake of comparison. I have seen the same printings without the FACSIMILE marking, which would tag them true forgeries, in my book. Printed with a the (possible) intention of deceiving.
Thanks,
Paul
re: Stamps proofs 1860-1890
"Yes, I appreciated that the stamp is a 'disclosed' fake with the FACSIMILE marking, but that just proves it's not genuine for the sake of comparison."