What we collect!

 

Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps



What we collect!
What we collect!


General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

 

Author
Postings
1938324
Members Picture


25 Apr 2019
10:40:49am

Auctions - Approvals
Image Not FoundPrecancels (like shown) w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH? Thank you.Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
51Studebaker
Members Picture


Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

25 Apr 2019
11:42:58am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Used.

Same if you walked into a PO, purchased a block of stamps, asked them to cancel them for you. Once cancelled, they are considered used even if they happen to have gum.
Don

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.org
sheepshanks
Members Picture


25 Apr 2019
05:31:44pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Here is an earlier post, images missing.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=2595

Like
Login to Like
this post
sheepshanks
Members Picture


25 Apr 2019
05:46:39pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

And here is an article from Linn's to further amplify the discussion.https://www.linns.com/news/postal-updates-page/stamp-collecting-basics/2006/september/collecting-used-postage-stamps-isn-t-quite-as-simple-as-it-might.html

Like
Login to Like
this post
DavidG
Members Picture


APS member since 2004

25 Apr 2019
10:15:55pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

As a collector of both US Airmail and Texas Precancels; all I can say is ..... WOW!

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"President, The Society for Costa Rica Collectors"
1938324
Members Picture


26 Apr 2019
07:45:42am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

FYI. I put a different Block of 6 on SOR, Ebay, and Hipstamp. The Hipstamp Block of 6 Sold immediately and the Ebay Block of 6 had 6 Bids within a couple of hrs. Never had that happen before.

Like
Login to Like
this post
cdj1122
Members Picture


Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

27 Apr 2019
12:57:00am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

RE: the Linn's article aforementioned;
" .... More recently, some postal administrations
have been offering new-issue stamps that are canceled
without having done postal duty but that are not sold
at a discount from face value.
Such stamps are not CTOs even though they did not do
postal duty, because they are not sold at a discount
from face value. ..."


For what it is worth, I completely disagree.
While the vast amount of CTOs are sold in bulk with
their cancel in place from the printing process,
there were some sets, CTO sets, that contained a
restricted or limited issue value which was sold
at post offices, or awarded, in Eastern Europe,
usually to favored party members. In fact, I think
that there were sets sold at those postal facilities
to local collectors at the "MSRP" (So to speak.)
at the government authored stamp clubs. The bulk
issues became the packet fillers, the limited issue
stamps of the set became, despite their CTO cancel,
the key to the set. This practice was not limited
to CTOs. A stamp, with its imprinted perfect quarter
circle cancel, often referred to as "Jam Jar Labels,"
did not have to be sold at a discount to win the
"CTO Award."


Also;
" ... Stamps that were not issued or not valid for payment
of postage sometimes receive a cancellation when a
cooperative postal clerk applies the cancel as a favor.
Such stamps are considered to be favor-canceled rather
than used ...."


Again, something has been left out.
Many dealers, especially in my experience, having standing
orders for properly cancelled new issues, bought sheets
of mint stamps and had the postal clerk apply a neat cancel
to each block of four, square on, so those standing orders
could be filled. These were valid stamps, usually current
issues, and I do not see how cancellations applied as a favor,
or as a part of the authorized day's work can fit into any
other category than "Favor Cancels." while the dealer
had the to pay full post office price for these Favor
Cancelled stamps as the mint, never hinged stamps, he then
had to sell them at the same or possibly a higher price as
those MNH stamps.
During the 1960s and 70s, I had been purchasing mostly UK
approvals from a really nice dealer operating from Wolver-
hampton and one day I noticed that quite a few had not only
perfect quadrennial cancels, but when I aligned a set that
had been a block, the stamps cancels were first cousins.
Also the gum was on the obverse. So this gentleman, whose
name escapes my faltering memory was creating Favor Cancels
and selling them as used. I began to choose stamps not likely
to be FC's, from his approval pages.
In 1987 or 1988, I noticed that Mystic was selling sets of
mint and sets of used $0.22 Presidential mini-sheets at what
seemed to be almost the same price. At the time I had
acquired more than half of the 35 or so stamps in the set
and wanted to set up the album pages, so I ordered the set
used as advertised. What I received was the entire set all
cancelled at the same Connecticut post office, obviously
Favor Cancelled, not postally used. The clincher was the
pristine gum. So yes, I set up the several pages and over
time replaced the FC's" with what I hope are postaly
canceled issues.

These points may seem minor to some, but the author set out
to enlighten other collectors and provide a comprehensive
guide to the various kinds of cancellations on the market
and to a large degree accomplished his task, but at least
in these two situations did not complete the definitions.
Philately is a large subject and it is difficult to be
completely comprehensive in all respects.
Charlie

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
amsd
Members Picture


Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

27 Apr 2019
09:48:30am

Auctions
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

if one reads Charlie's post carefully, we see that he's talking about the difference between used and postally used. A pre-cancelled stamp, FDC, or favor-cancelled stamp are all used, but none are necessarily postally used.

those of us who collect used stamps are really lookiing for postally used.

Note that Scott values East bloc CTOs as the default "used" stamp, with notes that indicate "postally used" stamps sell for higher amounts.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
sheepshanks
Members Picture


27 Apr 2019
09:53:06am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

I find that the CTO or favour cancelled stamps, including FDC's not to have a place in my collection.
I consider them cancelled but not used. They have not really done postal duty as on a letter or package, most FDC's seem to be issued by the Postal Authorities in bulk to dealers.
Where I find such items in kiloware or collections they do not go into my albums.
Mind you I will also not keep "sharpie" cancels despite the fact they have seen postal duty.
Oh the joys of collecting.

Like
Login to Like
this post
ikeyPikey
Members Picture


27 Apr 2019
11:52:05am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

'
Concerning GPU (Genuinely Postally Used), I am stricter than most, because I shun ex-contemporanous use of stamp, eg, US 3c commemoratives used as FVP (Face Value Postage) decades after they were issued.

OTOH, I don't want to give them away, lest the next GPU collector fail to detect this fault.

Sheepshanks has pointed me to a solution: just add a Sharpie cancel!

The best & highest use of most (modern mass-produced) FDCs is to give them to very small children, with an invitation to color on them, hoping that getting a good look at a stamp now & again will lead them down the rabbit hole.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
51Studebaker
Members Picture


Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

27 Apr 2019
12:39:06pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Ikey,
I eschew LKU and other ‘latest use’ designations because I feel they are arbitrary.

What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp that you use? 6 months after release? 10 months? 15 months? Is this cut off subjective...or is there some generally accepted cut off?
Don

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.org
cdj1122
Members Picture


Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

27 Apr 2019
01:48:49pm
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

" ... What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp ..."

You have raised an excellent question, Don. Ideally that would have to be when a postal agency withdraws a given stamp from service and requires all post offices return their unsold inventory to the central office where they will be carefully destroyed. There are nearly 2 nations and recognised agencies in the United Nations which means accepting that as the standard would lead to chaos. The UPU has a few less members so there would still be more than the usual chaos. If the USPS does call unsold stamps back to the salt mines under Omaha, as of a certain date, they do not enforce it strictly as I have been to many post offices and some barely have the stamps that are in service available, while others (a few) will have a full supply of miscellaneous stamps long after new issues are released for sale to the public.
It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
BenFranklin1902
Members Picture


Tom in Exton, PA

30 Apr 2019
08:30:24am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Image Not Found

Here's a block of 35 Benton Harbor, Michigan precancels on my beloved Ben Franklin stamp. I don't remember what I paid for this, but it no doubt came from the Covel collection.

It has perfect gum on the back. Obviously never saw postal usage. I consider it an "unused precancel". That about covers it.


Image Not Found

I also own this nice Lexington Concord set. Obviously a collector had these precancelled and kept them intact. Another example of "unused precancel".

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
BenFranklin1902
Members Picture


Tom in Exton, PA

30 Apr 2019
08:37:28am
re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

"It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage."



This will be an interesting topic in the future. In my albums I only keep coves that show usage during the stamps original issue period. I regularly come across covers that were mailed by collectors or dealers way after that period. For instance, I passed on a 1903 Ben Franklin cover with a plate block used on it, but in the 1920s, with a dealer corner card.

As so many old stamps are being sold today as discount postage, and I receive them on mail every day, we'll have tons of stamps with dates decades after their issuance. In most cases these are cheap stamps that nobody will be worried about value, but do you want a 1950s commemorative with a 2018 postmark in your collection as that one stamp representing the issue? I fear these stamps will be forever in mixtures.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
1938324

25 Apr 2019
10:40:49am

Auctions - Approvals

Image Not FoundPrecancels (like shown) w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH? Thank you.Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
25 Apr 2019
11:42:58am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Used.

Same if you walked into a PO, purchased a block of stamps, asked them to cancel them for you. Once cancelled, they are considered used even if they happen to have gum.
Don

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.org
Members Picture
sheepshanks

25 Apr 2019
05:31:44pm

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Here is an earlier post, images missing.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=2595

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
sheepshanks

25 Apr 2019
05:46:39pm

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

And here is an article from Linn's to further amplify the discussion.https://www.linns.com/news/postal-updates-page/stamp-collecting-basics/2006/september/collecting-used-postage-stamps-isn-t-quite-as-simple-as-it-might.html

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
DavidG

APS member since 2004
25 Apr 2019
10:15:55pm

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

As a collector of both US Airmail and Texas Precancels; all I can say is ..... WOW!

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"President, The Society for Costa Rica Collectors"
Members Picture
1938324

26 Apr 2019
07:45:42am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

FYI. I put a different Block of 6 on SOR, Ebay, and Hipstamp. The Hipstamp Block of 6 Sold immediately and the Ebay Block of 6 had 6 Bids within a couple of hrs. Never had that happen before.

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Apr 2019
12:57:00am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

RE: the Linn's article aforementioned;
" .... More recently, some postal administrations
have been offering new-issue stamps that are canceled
without having done postal duty but that are not sold
at a discount from face value.
Such stamps are not CTOs even though they did not do
postal duty, because they are not sold at a discount
from face value. ..."


For what it is worth, I completely disagree.
While the vast amount of CTOs are sold in bulk with
their cancel in place from the printing process,
there were some sets, CTO sets, that contained a
restricted or limited issue value which was sold
at post offices, or awarded, in Eastern Europe,
usually to favored party members. In fact, I think
that there were sets sold at those postal facilities
to local collectors at the "MSRP" (So to speak.)
at the government authored stamp clubs. The bulk
issues became the packet fillers, the limited issue
stamps of the set became, despite their CTO cancel,
the key to the set. This practice was not limited
to CTOs. A stamp, with its imprinted perfect quarter
circle cancel, often referred to as "Jam Jar Labels,"
did not have to be sold at a discount to win the
"CTO Award."


Also;
" ... Stamps that were not issued or not valid for payment
of postage sometimes receive a cancellation when a
cooperative postal clerk applies the cancel as a favor.
Such stamps are considered to be favor-canceled rather
than used ...."


Again, something has been left out.
Many dealers, especially in my experience, having standing
orders for properly cancelled new issues, bought sheets
of mint stamps and had the postal clerk apply a neat cancel
to each block of four, square on, so those standing orders
could be filled. These were valid stamps, usually current
issues, and I do not see how cancellations applied as a favor,
or as a part of the authorized day's work can fit into any
other category than "Favor Cancels." while the dealer
had the to pay full post office price for these Favor
Cancelled stamps as the mint, never hinged stamps, he then
had to sell them at the same or possibly a higher price as
those MNH stamps.
During the 1960s and 70s, I had been purchasing mostly UK
approvals from a really nice dealer operating from Wolver-
hampton and one day I noticed that quite a few had not only
perfect quadrennial cancels, but when I aligned a set that
had been a block, the stamps cancels were first cousins.
Also the gum was on the obverse. So this gentleman, whose
name escapes my faltering memory was creating Favor Cancels
and selling them as used. I began to choose stamps not likely
to be FC's, from his approval pages.
In 1987 or 1988, I noticed that Mystic was selling sets of
mint and sets of used $0.22 Presidential mini-sheets at what
seemed to be almost the same price. At the time I had
acquired more than half of the 35 or so stamps in the set
and wanted to set up the album pages, so I ordered the set
used as advertised. What I received was the entire set all
cancelled at the same Connecticut post office, obviously
Favor Cancelled, not postally used. The clincher was the
pristine gum. So yes, I set up the several pages and over
time replaced the FC's" with what I hope are postaly
canceled issues.

These points may seem minor to some, but the author set out
to enlighten other collectors and provide a comprehensive
guide to the various kinds of cancellations on the market
and to a large degree accomplished his task, but at least
in these two situations did not complete the definitions.
Philately is a large subject and it is difficult to be
completely comprehensive in all respects.
Charlie

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
27 Apr 2019
09:48:30am

Auctions

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

if one reads Charlie's post carefully, we see that he's talking about the difference between used and postally used. A pre-cancelled stamp, FDC, or favor-cancelled stamp are all used, but none are necessarily postally used.

those of us who collect used stamps are really lookiing for postally used.

Note that Scott values East bloc CTOs as the default "used" stamp, with notes that indicate "postally used" stamps sell for higher amounts.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
sheepshanks

27 Apr 2019
09:53:06am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

I find that the CTO or favour cancelled stamps, including FDC's not to have a place in my collection.
I consider them cancelled but not used. They have not really done postal duty as on a letter or package, most FDC's seem to be issued by the Postal Authorities in bulk to dealers.
Where I find such items in kiloware or collections they do not go into my albums.
Mind you I will also not keep "sharpie" cancels despite the fact they have seen postal duty.
Oh the joys of collecting.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
ikeyPikey

27 Apr 2019
11:52:05am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

'
Concerning GPU (Genuinely Postally Used), I am stricter than most, because I shun ex-contemporanous use of stamp, eg, US 3c commemoratives used as FVP (Face Value Postage) decades after they were issued.

OTOH, I don't want to give them away, lest the next GPU collector fail to detect this fault.

Sheepshanks has pointed me to a solution: just add a Sharpie cancel!

The best & highest use of most (modern mass-produced) FDCs is to give them to very small children, with an invitation to color on them, hoping that getting a good look at a stamp now & again will lead them down the rabbit hole.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Apr 2019
12:39:06pm

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Ikey,
I eschew LKU and other ‘latest use’ designations because I feel they are arbitrary.

What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp that you use? 6 months after release? 10 months? 15 months? Is this cut off subjective...or is there some generally accepted cut off?
Don

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.org

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Apr 2019
01:48:49pm

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

" ... What is the ‘cut off’ date for a GPU (Genuinely Postally Used) contemporaneously used stamp ..."

You have raised an excellent question, Don. Ideally that would have to be when a postal agency withdraws a given stamp from service and requires all post offices return their unsold inventory to the central office where they will be carefully destroyed. There are nearly 2 nations and recognised agencies in the United Nations which means accepting that as the standard would lead to chaos. The UPU has a few less members so there would still be more than the usual chaos. If the USPS does call unsold stamps back to the salt mines under Omaha, as of a certain date, they do not enforce it strictly as I have been to many post offices and some barely have the stamps that are in service available, while others (a few) will have a full supply of miscellaneous stamps long after new issues are released for sale to the public.
It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Apr 2019
08:30:24am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

Image Not Found

Here's a block of 35 Benton Harbor, Michigan precancels on my beloved Ben Franklin stamp. I don't remember what I paid for this, but it no doubt came from the Covel collection.

It has perfect gum on the back. Obviously never saw postal usage. I consider it an "unused precancel". That about covers it.


Image Not Found

I also own this nice Lexington Concord set. Obviously a collector had these precancelled and kept them intact. Another example of "unused precancel".

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
Members Picture
BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Apr 2019
08:37:28am

re: Precancels w/Original Gum. Are they "Used" or MNH?

"It might be interesting to learn how our members decide that a cancellation date is after a stamp's Last Known (Authorized) Usage."



This will be an interesting topic in the future. In my albums I only keep coves that show usage during the stamps original issue period. I regularly come across covers that were mailed by collectors or dealers way after that period. For instance, I passed on a 1903 Ben Franklin cover with a plate block used on it, but in the 1920s, with a dealer corner card.

As so many old stamps are being sold today as discount postage, and I receive them on mail every day, we'll have tons of stamps with dates decades after their issuance. In most cases these are cheap stamps that nobody will be worried about value, but do you want a 1950s commemorative with a 2018 postmark in your collection as that one stamp representing the issue? I fear these stamps will be forever in mixtures.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails | Facebook


User Agreement

Copyright © 2024 Stamporama.com