Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Good rule Michael. I think we should apply it equally to Approval Book stamps of some value (selling above 25c?)
For the lower cost stamps that are the majority of what is being sold, I would require sellers to note that the stamps have writing on the back, especially in ink. And to alert the buyer to any visible flaw, by indicating it with an arrow, a footnote or an X on the scan!
These are my suggestions.
rrr....
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In the approval books, such notations can be made in the item number description. Not everyone will be versed enough to embed graphics into their book pages.
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So mentioning is no longer good enough? OK. What I do find interesting is that damaged stamps do sell if marked down enough.
Greg
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You can sell damaged stamps as long as they meet the parameters to do so. You can set any price you want to a compliant listing.
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I have issues with this as you will see. I had two auctions just canceled. First the US lot. I described it as missing a perf. Is it really? The fact is the card I took it from said it was fine. The other stamp has a bent perf and was described as such. It too was cancelled. However had this stamp been BEHIND the other and NOT described as a bent perf, that is OK? Why? There is no rule that says you must show all stamps clearly. I brought this up after finding many sets that overlap in auctions.
Truly I believe we are nitpicking here. This rule is going to discourage people from listing anything at all that is not absolutely perfect and the buyers are going to want to pay no more than 20% CV for the stamp. Maybe the intent is to limit the number of auctions. For me, I said I would never relist an ended auction. Since everything must be almost certification perfect, when I actually manage to get them listed and passed by the censor I might as well keep listing them until they are sold
Here are pictures of the cancelled auctions. Actually the bent perf was straightened out but I didn't want to bother to reshoot it.
This however is OK
And we KNOW all the perfs are perfect how exactly?
Or maybe its just this site hates dealers.
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It is a simple matter.
All that is required is to follow the rules.
Sellers and buyers who do not follow the rules face consequences.
Please read, know and follow the rules.
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smauggie: Please don't be "smug"gie *
Greg/Soundcrest is making a serious point with well thought-out evidence provided. He deserves more than a throw-away response like that. I think his frustration is at least legitimate and worthy of an equally-considered response. And even if I - admittedly - don't totally get it, I think his sensitivity to a possible anti-"dealer" (whatever that species is) undercurrent probably has some basis in (his) experience.
And for what it's worth, Greg is one SoR member I buy from consistently - and would hold him up as a gold standard for good quality stamps and great service. I wouldn't want to risk losing him. (And by the way, he's an American - and I still
love him!!!)
Dave.
NOTE
* This is my (self-described) humorous play on words and not meant to be derisive to you.
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Howdy! When I sign into SOR I always see the Motto? A stamp Club for People who love stamps. I think maybe you should consider taking that down or changing it.
I agree with Soundcrest, this is nitpickin. We seem two have two distinct groups of people here, 1. Those who love the hobby and love stamps as I do and a group who seem to want to 'Lord' it over all the rest. Your knowledge is gratefully received if presented properly, you don't have to make a person feel small or stupid.
I have received many stamps in the mail that are pen cancelled. I don't collect them but I have offered them to others on SOR if they want to pay the postage. You know what, they all went to new homes. There are people out there who love stamps and are happy collecting whatever they can get. Everyone doesn't have thousands of dollars to spend on expensive stamps.
The response from smauggie is uncalled for and he should be taken to task for it. He is currently on my case with more nitpickin. I received a message from him today (actually three identical messages) stating it was against the rules to sell damaged stamps with a value less than $5. He did not mention that a rule change had been made. He seems hell bent on trying to prove how powerful he is.
Well folks, as soon as I tie up all my loose ends in SOR I will be checking out. I have loved SOR and really enjoyed my time here. I have made some very good friends along the way and I will inform them I am leaving. I will also be looking for a buyer for my entire collection. Thanks to certain people in SOR I have lost my desire to collect.
I believe SOR should be looking for a way to inform collectors of serious rule changes. I also believe SOR Moderators should have more compassion for the beginner and novice collector. I have signed on pretty well everyday and received no inkling of change. Not everyone reads the bulletin boards everyday. I can see the demise of SOR very clearly now.
stampnut1953
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I am in total agreement with Greg and Dave and Stampnut53.
Where would you like us to send complaints about all of the listed auctions that do not meet exacting criteria?
There are not enough hours in the day
I understand the thought was well intentioned but enforcement needs to be identical for ALL lots and ALL sellers - period. That is a tall order if you have more than one sheriff in town. i have no more interest in ever listing stamps here subject to interpretation by someone viewing a jpeg.
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Let me address several comments made in the last few responses to this thread.
"Where would you like us to send complaints about all of the listed auctions that do not meet exacting criteria?"
This has been answered many times, and it is self-evident. If you want to report non-compliance in the sales platforms, contact the Auctioneer, the Assistant Auctioneer, the Assistant Approvals Moderator, or the Assistant Sales Platforms Moderator.
"I received a message from him today (actually three identical messages) stating it was against the rules to sell damaged stamps with a value less than $5. He did not mention that a rule change had been made. He seems hell bent on trying to prove how powerful he is."
If you scroll to the top of this message thread, you will see that the very first post is dated September 30, 2017, and it contains the information about the rule change. Scroll down a little bit more, and you will find a post dated October 12, 2017, where everyone was reminded of the rule change and that the enforcement of such would begin on October 18. You don't have to read the messages every day, but there was an almost three week advance notice, and a one week reminder about this. What else do you want?
"However had this stamp been BEHIND the other and NOT described as a bent perf, that is OK? Why? There is no rule that says you must show all stamps clearly."
It is true that there is no rule requiring that all stamps be fully displayed. However, and I have stated this many times every time this irrational logic is used by a seller to deflect off the fact that an item was non-compliant, NO, IT IS NOT OK IF A DAMAGED STAMP IS HIDDEN OR DISGUISED AND SOLD WITHOUT DISCLOSURE OF THE DAMAGE. Unless stated otherwise in the item description, a stamp, set of stamps or larger lot of stamps is considered to be sound. A buyer may file a dispute against a seller for selling an item that was "not as described", and the buyer's dispute will be upheld. If it is believed that a seller was acting fraudulently by hiding damaged stamps, then the seller may face expulsion from Stamporama.
"I understand the thought was well intentioned but enforcement needs to be identical for ALL lots and ALL sellers"
Thank you for telling us how to do our job. Enforcement is handled when a problem is found. We don't have an army of people here who can look at thousands of stamps every day. As Ralph has often said in the approvals, there are rules, and sellers are on the "honor system" to follow them. I will be happy to expand my four-plus hours a day I spend on Stamporama looking over things to eight or even more hours per day if you want to pay me.
We expect that the rules will be followed. Unfortunately there are some who want to test the system and cause unnecessary work for the volunteers. We try to be nice and ask that non-compliant items be edited to make them compliant. It is when the non-compliance continues despite our efforts to try to get someone to follow the rules that we actually impose the sanctions. Here is what the non-complaince rules state:
First Time - item(s) closed, if appropriate; reminder of the rules
Second Time - access to sales platforms suspended for 3 months
Third Time - permanent suspension to sales platforms and/or Stamporama
Strict enforcement of the rules would actually be easier than how we do it now where we try to give everyone as many chances as possible. I don't have any problem with the three strike process. Would you like that? Be careful what you ask for. The list of non-compliant sellers and buyers is quite long.
When we enforce the rules, we often get sellers who send us private messages similar to what Carol wrote here, "Why don't you go after the others?", or worse. There actually is quite a bit of enforcement that goes on. This is all done behind the scenes as it is not for public viewing or knowledge. Accusing us of not doing so, when you don't know the facts, is inappropriate. As I said, the list of people who have violated the rules is quite long.
Some people are always quick to start yelling and screaming and condemn, especially when they are notified for not following the rules. Instead of blasting this all over the place, how about talking it over with the moderator? If a mistake was made, the moderator can retract it. The Auctioneer can be contacted to review the action. But you have to give us a chance to do that. Some people think that public intimidation like the responses here will work in their favor. It won't.
I appreciate the sellers and buyers who want to work with us to make the sales platforms better. The ones who throw their tantrums mean very little to me. You want to go away, because your feelings were hurt? OK. See ya!
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Jings!!.....Crivvens!!.....Help Ma Boab!!
"We seem two have two distinct groups of people here, 1. Those who love the hobby and love stamps as I do and a group who seem to want to 'Lord' it over all the rest. Your knowledge is gratefully received if presented properly, you don't have to make a person feel small or stupid. "
Goodness gracious me!!
"Well folks, as soon as I tie up all my loose ends in SOR I will be checking out. I have loved SOR and really enjoyed my time here. I have made some very good friends along the way and I will inform them I am leaving. I will also be looking for a buyer for my entire collection. Thanks to certain people in SOR I have lost my desire to collect."
I have always said Buyers Buy and Sellers Sell.
If there are no buyers there can be no sellers.
If there are no sellers there can be no buyers
There MUST be BALANCE/HARMONY between the two groups, otherwise it leads to FAILURE.
Over the past couple of months this site HAS tipped the balance towards the Buyers.
This site IS failing to recognise that our beloved hobby has many, many, many different levels of expertise and NOT everybody aspires to "Gold Medal" level.
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Communication is always a problem on this site.
May we please have a list of ALL moderators and how to contact them PLEASE!!
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It is nice to read that I am not alone. Truthfully based on what I was told I could list those two Italy stamps side by side, hiding the bent perf part of the stamp and that is legit. I would not do it now as it would be considered a "wise ass" thing to do so to speak. Personally I think there is an ulterior motive here in the long run - rid the site of dealers. Look at the mumbling's I read about for approval books. No stamps that sell for over 25 cents can be listed in an approval book if there is damage to the stamp. Then read the occasional comment about "high priced stamps don't belong in approval books". Connect the dots. Who has these high priced stamps to PUT in approval books? Usually dealers. I'm sorry, I sell all over the place and in fact I have been told that even the APS sales platform (and I admit to not knowing this first hand) bases sales on scans. You are REQUIRED to accept returns on ebay,Delcampe,Hipstamp and Amazon. Does this site NOT require that? Maybe THAT is the rule that needs enforcing.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I have said from day one when I heard about this, that if a seller stands behind every sale and will take back any stamp because of condition, and that thr scan is one that is easily seen without downloading the image and blowing it up, then THAT is good enough. If you go by the nitpick rule, then the seller can say to the buyer, sorry. The scan was good, the description was approved by the censor, I don't need to take it back. Hogwash.
I agree with Carol, but I won't get into doing something like bombarding the censor with listing after listing of stamps that "I" think are violating the rules. Its liable to get me suspended. She is correct. It's is someones interpretation of a jpeg. Is there a size requirement for those? And as she said,there are not enough hours in the day to go through every new listing and look for offenders.
Sorry Dave, but I will be moving the Monday night auctions elsewhere to reestablish my auction presence there. Once and if that happens auctions will decrease here from the Wednesday ones as well. Their bulk uploader is phenomenal and you need not put a country into it. It hits the site and populates it for you. Scans are just fine there as a description. I'd tell you where but no doubt there is a rule about that too. The anti dealer thing is that I believe that there is the perception of a) dealers make a ton of money, and don't contribute to anything here and b) that dealers should lower their prices even further because there are no fees. So a dealer like me who sells at 20% CV should lower their prices buy the 6% that they are not paying. Buyers are looking for 18.8%?
If you look at my blurb you will see this - My goal is to make you happy! I was in the approval business from 1981-2004 for the sole reason of helping people with their collections. When the business changed I had to change with it. It was true in 1981, and it is true in 2017. I make an attempt to find and list both in approval books and certainly at auction stamps that may be missing from a collectors collection. I list at 20% on most auctions. You certainly don't get rich selling at prices like that and honestly, as long as I make enough to buy more stuff to list and pay my daughter to list postcards for me on another site, I'm happy. I check from time to time what others sell and rarely do I find what I list. I feel like I am providing stamps that people need, which is the same feeling I had when I was in the approval business. The other sites are just stores to me. This is more like the stamp club that used to meet in my garage when I was 12.
This is NOT public humiliation or whatever you think. This is a response to the same exact email I got twice from the censor when I questioned him. I took it to mean "I'm not getting involved with you - follow the rules". Sorry, but when I don't receive an answer I am not pleased. Follow the rules is not an answer. Saying "well the US stamp may not be damaged its hard to tell. I'll let it go" IS an answer. It meant that you LOOKED at what I was talking about
Its a shame if we start to lose members here due to rules, or rather inflexible rules. The collectors are the ultimate losers.
Greg
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So reading Michaels entry we are suspended due to someones interpretation of a jpeg. Fantastic.
Greg
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Why is it that the "Dealers" are feeling singled out here. The rules apply to all sellers and buyers. I am a little disappointed that people who get to sell for free on this site have issues with having to follow the rules.
How much money has been saved by dealers selling here for free? If the only cost to doing business here is adherence to the rules I think complaining about failing to identify a damaged stamp etc. isn't to much to ask.
Just my 2 cents.
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Ah, Alyn see my amended post above. 6% is what I save. So if I sell a $2.00 CV stamp for 40 cents I save 2.4 cents, or $6 on a $100 stamp (wishful thinking to be sure)During the course of an average auction week (and I do not list expensive lots as they do not sell here) I MIGHT be saving 4-5 dollars. And thats a GOOD auction week
Greg
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ALYN:-
It is not the rules that are the problem.
It is the communication.
It is the tone of the anouncments, enforcements.
They are given in language as if it is a dictat from above and always given with the threat of suspension.
Also the tone suggests ALL Sellers are BAD guys.
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" I read about for approval books. No stamps that sell for over 25 cents can be listed in an approval book if there is damage to the stamp. Then read the occasional comment about "high priced stamps don't belong in approval books"."
THERE ARE NO RULES THAT STATE THIS.
"hiding the bent perf part of the stamp and that is legit"
You bring this up over and over again. You know perfectly well that it is not legit if the damage is not disclosed.
"So reading Michaels entry we are suspended due to someones interpretation of a jpeg."
Nothing like that was said. If you are contacted for non-compliance, and you do not agree with it REPLY TO THE MODERATOR IN PRIVATE MESSAGES TO WORK OUT THE PROBLEM. You might be surprised how discussing something like that can bring a better understanding to both the seller and the moderator (especially someone new who is learning the job unless the goal is public humiliation and intimidation). COMMUNICATE!!
"inflexible rules"
More like inflexible sellers. Did I not state that we try to work with everyone to give them as many chances as possible?
"but I won't get into doing something like bombarding the censor with listing after listing of stamps that "I" think are violating the rules. Should be. Its liable to get me suspended. "
You know better than that. We get many reports from people about potential non-compliant items. We take a look at them, and act, if necessary. We appreciate the help.
One last thing. Stamporama is NOT: ebay, HipStamp, Delcampe, Amazon, APS or any other site. On HipStamp, people who don't like how that site works want to make it more like ebay. Get over it.
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It simply is not worth the effort to discuss this. I will leave this thread be and work things out on my own
Greg
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"6% is what I save"
Thanks for that @Soundcrest, but the potential savings is there. If I look at your current listings I believe you have 228 items listed in the Auctions. If Standard Ebay rates apply that means you have already saved: $53.40 on insertion fees, plus if every thing sells at only the price reflected now that is another $19.17. This is a potential total savings of $72.57.
While I understand that this is if everything sells is is still a significant amount saved.
As to your pricing, I will pay what I deem to be a fair price for the stamps on offer and I don't expect you to sell less than what makes sense to you.
Again just my point of view.
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Hi Alyn,
You make an assumption with the fees. I have an anchor store. I can list 1000 stamps at auction a month for free as well as 10,000 store items. I sell much more than stamps. Stamp sales is a relatively small percentage of $$$ sold on ebay.
A good week on SOR is about $75 and which is about $5.
Greg
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"It is not the rules that are the problem.
It is the communication.
It is the tone of the anouncments, enforcements.
They are given in language as if it is a dictat from above and always given with the threat of suspension.
Also the tone suggests ALL Sellers are BAD guys."
I agree that communication is a huge part of the problem. But my point is when there are no costs involved that following the established rules is an investment that makes sense.
Also, I don't see it as suggesting all sellers are bad. But again that is just my point of view.
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All I can say to our auctioneer is BRAVO!
This is LOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.
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"You make an assumption with the fees. I have an anchor store. I can list 1000 stamps at auction a month for free as well as 10,000 store items. I sell much more than stamps. Stamp sales is a relatively small percentage of $$$ sold on ebay. "
That is fine but how much does an anchor store cost you per month? I am pretty sure whether it is the $349.95 or $299.95 it is more than the 0.00 asked for here to sell. Even if you appropriation only your stamp stuff it is still a great deal not to pay anything here.
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Very tough to figure that out.
My store inventory is $75,563.09. I don't see a dollar value on the breakdown of the various subgroupings within the store. Of the 6800 items but only 844 are stamps, but the dollar amount is a much smaller percentage. I would ball park my ebay sales stamp wise at maybe $200 a month, and of that probably $50 is the store. The rest is auction. No matter how you want to slice it the cost of doing business stamp wise on ebay is very very little. People don't pay a lot for stamps there either!
I would not have an anchor store if all I was selling was stamps. I got it when I branched out into other areas which sell a lot better. I sell stamps because I enjoy it. I sell everything else to make a buck
Greg
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It takes all sorts to make a world.
WE are all just Humans. Mistakes and errors will occur. All reasonable sellers will sort out any errors/mistakes.
Those of us with poor eyesight or are housebound also recognise that it is probable that we may let the odd error slip through and are prepared to rectify any situation.
When your hobby stops being fun then its time to find something else.
P.S. It is not always all about money.
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After reading every word of this thread I can see both sides. I'm basically a collector but I sell here. The time it takes (me anyway) to prepare and present an approval book is many, many hours. I do it because I have the time and actually enjoy it. If I was a dealer it wouldn't be worth it. I can understand Soundcrest's concerns. A seller like him who backs up all his sales to the buyers satisfaction (and has for decades) is not a seller any platform wants to lose because of over regulation. He and most sellers on this cite are fine working on the honor system (with current means of moderator involvement) and I believe most buyers are satisfied also. However, I (and the most of us) do not know the amount of complaints the moderators receive. I also do want to say that whenever I was contacted by a moderator (twice, I believe) they were constructive, helpful and humble. This cite is one of a kind and so far has existed on the trust of members- whether buying and selling or trading. I would advocate letting the marketplace determine which sellers and buyers are here. If a dealer/seller consistently sells damaged stamps and won't allow returns for those stamps the current rules in place give the moderators the means to handle the situation when multiple complaints are registered. Regulation is always a sticky issue.
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I propose this. A JPG review committee as that seems to be one of the problems with the closing of listings. It's an opinion. Any person who cannot come to an agreement with the auctioneer or the censor, can take it up with a 3 person committee for review. The listing stands as is until the committee makes their review. I will put my money where my mouth is and offer to be one of those people reviewing the listing. I will say this however. The image better be large enough that when I open it in a new tab I can see the "discussion point" and not have to download it and blow it up. If I have to do that then I will cast a negative vote. There is no reason on earth why images cannot be a size that is easily viewed and a lot of what I see fall into the too small category. From what I know you can even resize them with your phone. I know this because my daughter takes pictures of my postcards with her phone and resizes them to the proper width to upload. I don't know how she does it but shes 30 and I'm 66. I still think phones are for making phone calls
Greg
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09:25:01am
For the record, I have nothing to do with creating or administering the auction rule, however, I will go on the record as being in favour of it.
And this discussion is getting out of hand.
How simple can it be?
All the rule says is:
1) Damage must be described, not just "rely on scan".
2) Cheap (under $5 catalogue value) damaged stamps are not wanted in the auction.
3) Listings of damaged stamps must include a catalogue value in the description to show compliance with #2.
4) "Damage" is clearly defined as "repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink".
How much simpler can it be?
In essence, buyers have the right to assume that stamps they purchase are sound, unless otherwise specifically described.
As far as targeting dealers is concerned, nothing in the rules suggests that. I am a full time dealer, and none of these rules bother me because they are practices I would follow anyway, and I think any dealer with any experience would be the same.
In fact, as a buyer, I believe these rules will have more of an impact in protecting me from the novice sellers -- the guys who list 25c catalogue items with torn corners -- that disgusts me and casts a bad light on the auction as a whole.
Nobody is saying you can't sell a faulty stamp. As a club, we are just saying to disclose the condition accurately, and limit such offerings to higher value stamps that people are actually likely to buy.
Roy
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What I have been trying to point out is that its the tone of the "Announcement" and nearly always with a threat.
Members have different visual accuity therefore mistakes will happen and faults may not be noticed by the seller. (We are all ageing). Especially when making up an approval book of 100+ stamps, selling for 5-10c each.
Any reasonable seller will rectify any mistake.
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we agree, Ian,
reasonable sellers will fix mistakes.
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as to tone, here's what was written (can't imagine we are talking about tone without seeing what was sent)
"
"Regarding Lot: 2063152
Martinique #14 Used
Hi Gregory,
It looks like the corner is bent/creased on this stamp. If that is the case please adjust the listing to describe the fault within 24 hours.
Faulty stamps must have their faults described in the lot.
I have attached the rule below. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
Antonio
Sales Platform Assistant Moderator
Selling rules:
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot."
"
let me reiterate the entire transaction aspect of this message:
"It looks like the corner is bent/creased on this stamp. If that is the case please adjust the listing to describe the fault within 24 hours."
This is presented in an "if/then" scenario. It's not didactic, nor delivered from on high. Instead, Antonio says something akin to "If I see this correctly, there's a problem that should be fixed; please do so in the next 24 hours"
If it's not, then say so.
I looked at the stamp in question this morning. It does look like it's creased at the upper right. Further, it looks like there's a scuff at the lower left. could be optics, but we're looking to make sure that when people buy stamps, they buy what they thought was listed based on the description.
I really don't get where all the fury is coming from.
And I truly don't understand why those of you who profess to want good manners haven't had the decency to try to iron this out back channel instead of airing your laundy for all to see.
David
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David those were not the listings that were cancelled. Higher up in this thread you will see the cancelled listings. The US? I don't know if its missing a perf on the lower left but I mentioned it. Probably a mistake. There was no discussion. Cancelled. If that stamp is missing a perf than there are probably 100's of stamps misdescribed out there. Missing a perf. One perf shorter than another. A nubbed perf. Etc. The bent Italy perf? I'll give you that but again no discussion. Cancelled.
My opinion is that all stamps in a set must be shown at auction, and that images should be of such a size that you don't have to blow them up was met with very poor reception. Fine. It's your bat, your ball, your bases so to speak so I will play the game accordingly
I did do a quick check of all new auctions this morning and book marked a few of the many that were bad or had questionable descriptions. "The scan is the item you will receive" is a description? Took all of 15 minutes to bookmark and download the images. Now if these listings look the same tomorrow what is one to think? Animal Farm comes to mind.
I was no longer going to bother with this thread but since I was mentioned by name, I thought clarification was necessary.
Greg
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Jings!!.....Crivvens!!.....Help Ma Boab!!
George Orwell being mentioned.
Where are the Shakespeare quotes?
Or should it be Del Boy from Only Fools and Horses? (This time next year we could be Millionaires).
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"Now if these listings look the same tomorrow what is one to think?"
Maybe that the volunteers didn't have time to look at them, because they have other things to do in their lives rather than spend all day and longer unpaid working on the site?
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Ok- one more comment into the morass from a more pragmatic point.
Suppose I was looking at groups of stamps to buy. The Group 1 was the stamps from Soundcrest shown earlier in this thread - the post that triggered the latest furor.
Group 2 was the same stamps, but these were all so badly off-center that the perfs on one side and the top were cut into the design. With the older Italian issues, that sometimes happens. But the perfs were OK.
Group 3 was well centered, but the entire feature of the designs was under a big, black blob of cancellation. Without the catalog numbers, you couldn't even be sure what they were. But the perfs were OK.
The fourth group had both a seriously off-center design and a blob cancellation.
Groups 2, 3, and 4 meet the criterion of no damage.
Which one would I buy? Group 1.
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Dollhaus - You are certainly free to make that choice assuming the lot is properly described and has a catalog value of $5 US or more.
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So the lot needs to cat $5? As in I could add a Great Britain stamp that rarely if ever sells for more than 10 cents on a dollar to a damaged stamp, bring the CV up to $5 point out the obvious and then list it as a "group"? See there are always work arounds. You just have to think them up!
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That is not a work-around, and it didn't have to be thought up. It was already in the rule.
However, you do have to justify the catalog value of the set/lot by identifying each stamp, and providing the catalog number and the proper catalog citation (catalog name and year).
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Not a problem to do such. It just allows stamps under $5 with faults to be listed, and the fault pointed out along with a good stamp that pushes the total of the lot to over $5. It gives collectors the ability to purchase a stamp with a "bent perf" that they REALLY dont mind purchasing in that condition but could not as the stamp cats for say $3 and would not be allowed. Or am I reading this wrong. I understand the rule to state that no stamp under $5 can be listed if it has faults correct? Even pointing them put is not enough.
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I agree with Roy.
And I am a little saddened that we are looking at "ways to scam the system" at a friendly on-line club.
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Greg, this is the portion of the rule that applies (bold added for emphasis):
Single stamps and sets of stamps with a general catalog value of less than $5.00 USD (approximately 4.25 Euros; 4.00 GBP; $6.25 AUD; $6.25 CAD, for example) that contain any or all of the defects described in Rule C8a may not be offered for sale in the auctions.
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Soundcrest:-
Just to point out:- The original images you show has a number of Vatican City stamps overlapping.
This "collection" of Vatican stamps should have been withdrawn by the seller
Why??....The fourth stamp from the left has a missing perf!! (Hee Hee Hee).
(see how easy it is to miss a single missing perf)
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Exactly my point Ian. Who knows with that sellers listings what you are getting!
Michael you cleared it up (well I was pretty sure of it anyway). I suppose my gripe about this whole issue is this. A group of people are telling other people what they are allowed to buy and collect. Thats what it REALLY boils down to and you have no idea how much that bothers me. Groups of people deciding for me what is best for me. Sound like any group (not on SOR) you know? I will leave it at that. I do not intentionally list damaged stamps but now I know it can be done even with the cheap ones should I come across something that I think another collector would like to have. You cannot possibly imagine how much "free stuff" I have to give away if need be. Years worth. many years worth.
It is not scamming the system. It is letting collectors have free will as to what they can buy. That's part of the perception problem here with dealers. People think we put money first customer wants second. At least for me it is not like that at all. People on this site are collectors. If they are building a collection with the thought that this is their nest egg in the future i have some REALLY bad news for them. Any dealer here will tell you the more expensive the collection, unless you have tons of unbelievable high quality stamps, the less in percentage of cv you will get if you go to sell it. Dealers am I lying about this? Stamp collecting, like any collecting should be done as a hobby, nothing more. If you don't believe me take a look at what is for sale on ebay and look up the CV. Now guess what the dealer may have paid. As I said, people should never use hobbies as investments. Hobby markets crash.
This brings us full circle. Notice at no point did I criticize telling sellers what they can sell. Sellers should be able to sell whatever a collector wants to buy, not what someone says they should buy. I do not believe sellers are trying to "put one over" I do think though if a seller has at auction 9 stamps from German East Africa individually listed, each having a missing perf, every single one of them would sell. Why? How many German East Africa stamps show up here at auction? Under the $5 rule they could not be listed. They could be listed with a couple of pairs of say MNH Sweden stamps, put in a second image that put the CV over $5.(and before you ask, no, those stamps cost me literally nothing. There are just too many of the same stamps. Hundreds.) Is that a scam? No, it is putting stamps into the hands of collectors, stamps they might not have. Its the collector that is #1. Not the dealer. Not the rule makers. Not the enforcers. The collectors. And I will do everything I can to get stamps into peoples hands that want them. Period.
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Greg,
Your comments are all about how you are affected. You are making money out of Stamporama, be it a small amount. You have no idea how many thousands of hours are put in by the volunteers who keep this site working. The sales team and the discussion board moderators do an amazing job in difficult situations because you get your feeling hurt. When you are ready to give something back to the club I'll take you seriously.
Tim.
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I think this thread has given me a big headache ! - One of the reasons I do not bother with auctions because I can not be spending too much time looking at the stamps in such detail to determine if there may be a flaw. I never put up torn stamps - I just toss them. I may have been guilty of having stamps with pen notations in the back but unless i am listing something as Mint Never Hinged - I just do not look at every stamp that closely. As far as approvals - if a buyer gets any stamps from me that are in a condition that they feel is no good - all they have to do is message me and tell me about them and I gladly offer refunds and they can just discard the stamps - I do not need them back. IF a stamp is a higher value item - I certainly take more care to make sure it has no issues like thins or cut perfs before I send it off. I have been doing this on Hipstamp/Bidstart for many years and have a feedback of close to 16000 with a 100% and I always take care of my buyers. Since I am not doing this as a business and the majority of what I sell is from old collections from long ago -there is no loss. Steve
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I feel the same way Steve does. I only have 10,000 feedback at 100% on the other venues but have also sold over 4000 stamps on here with no complaints. I offer full refund (no return required on stamps under a few dollars) and include a refund of the postage cost.
I can live with rules, but things should be able to be discussed in a civil manner. When you combine micro-management with a "because I said so" attitude I don't need the aggravation. When you create rules that are not (and cannot be) equally enforced you create a situation where it is natural to go after the easy targets. Basic management 101 and I have a lot of corporate and government experience on both sides of that fence.
With all due respect the answers to what at least started out to be legitimate concerns sound more like they come from that other discussion board based in Australia.
I will continue to utilize the club for the incredible amount of information provided but until open communication and a degree of civility return I think I will try to stay out of anything controversial.
What a shame.
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Greg, note that none of these rules prevent someone from selling damaged stamps in the classified ads. If you want to put a bagful of floor sweepings, you can offer it in the classified ads. You won't get any more one-on-one with another member here with selling, buying, trading, etc. transactions than there.
"A group of people are telling other people what they are allowed to buy and collect. Thats what it REALLY boils down to and you have no idea how much that bothers me. Groups of people deciding for me what is best for me."
No Greg. You have that wrong. The group of people who manage this site are doing and making decisions that they believe are best for the site and the members as a whole, not any one individual or small group of individuals. Ebay tells its sellers what they can and can't sell. Hipstamp tells its sellers what it can and can't sell. I'm sure Delcampe and every other sales web site on the internet does the same. Why do you expect different from this site? Actually our rules are more lax than the rules on the other sites.
Rules are made to govern the conduct of all the people using the site. Users have the choice to follow the rules, or if they don't want to, find another site that is more to their liking.
Carol, you are correct. None of this would have happened had the matter been responded to through private messages to ask for a second opinion, and even then if the second opinion wasn't acceptable, it could have been appealed to the Auctioneer for a third. There was a poor decision made that launched a series of unfortunate events that were unnecessary.
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@Smauggie
"Dollhaus - You are certainly free to make that choice assuming the lot is properly described and has a catalog value of $5 US or more."
Smauggie, you missed my point completely. I want to have the option to buy or not buy stamps that meet my needs regardless of any catalog value. Your interpretation of the rules is correct, but look at what that does to a buyer. You remove the opportunity for a buyer to get what he wants, leaving him with the choice of what he considers inferior items or nothing at all. There's something wrong with a system such as that.
I don't know the back story on this. Where did the $5 come from? What led to this? What were the problems? Surely some impetus caused this change. What was it? Some explanation of the whys and therefores would certainly have greased the skids a lot better than a diktat from on high.
I will ask you: If you were faced with a choice between one of the stamps Soundcrest posted or the same stamp off-center with a killer cancellation, which would you pick?
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This thread is an example of what happens when a seller doesn't like that we have enforced the rules against him.
Now, here is a typical response that we receive in Private Messages when we enforce the rules against many other sellers. (Note that this is a real response received from a seller:
"I'll just sell my shitty stamps elsewhere. You people can just kiss my ass."
This is a common response when someone gets caught. Immature, childish, and totally uncalled for. It is also a violation of the SOR Code of Conduct.
We enforce the rules, and we get repaid by abusive people such as this one.
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Michael it is not just telling sellers what they can sell, Certainly every site has that right to do so. Its telling collectors what they can buy and that is done here buy telling a seller they are forbidden to list a stamp that has a CV of under $5 if it has a fault. Is that not what the rule says? Why are you telling a collector that a set of 2 stamps that catalog for $4 and would be listed at auction for 80 cents cannot be sold because one stamp has a short perf? What if I went into a supermarket, saw an apple I wanted,the only apple in the basket and was told, no you can't have that. It has a bruise and the government says I cannot sell you a bruised apple. Sorry. It's the same exact thing in my book. If you want to criticize condition on expensive stamps, I'm good with that. As I have said before I do not intentionally list damaged stamps, You are however allowing a one person team to decide whether a stamp has a short perf, a missing perf a nubbed perf etc using an image that lets be honest, may not be the highest quality. You sell on Hipstamp. You know how the images work there. Mouse over for detail. You've seen some of the images here as well. Are they of "roll over" quality? Hardly.
My two stamps were canceled, no discussion. No email saying "would you please fix these?" Nada. I was not told to seek a second opinion. (and amending this, no my feelings were not HURT. I didn't crawl into a safe space with playdoh) So I fixed the description and put them back up. Will they sell? Honestly, you know I don't care about that. All I care about is that if a collector wants them, they should be able to have them and I take it that the collector has the intelligence (since I give them a decent photo) to look at the photo and make a decision based on their thought process not someone elses. As you said Michael "a group of people deciding whats best for the site", or a group of people telling other people what is best for them. Oh how it is so hard to keep comparisons with what goes on in the outside world out of this discussion...... Do as I say (you can't buy that) because I know better for you than you do.
And Tom does raise some interesting questions. I hope to see the answers to them, especially the $5 question. Percentage wise I sell many more stamps under $1 (which is 20% of $5) than over a dollar.
Michael the response that you received is totally immature and me, if in your position, thats a boot. A person that takes that attitude unless he was being harassed for something like a .00001 difference in the size of the perfs (and again, with what is allowed here as images who knows) that kind of response is uncalled for. However I truly believe that if we had image size requirements, and I think maybe a couple of years ago we had, or it was at least proposed, a lot of this nonsense would disappear. I know I have to reduce some of my images to make the grade as they are too big. Thats because elsewhere I need a mouseable image. I'm not saying Tim should work that into the listings, but rather insist on an image at least 6-700 pixels on one of the sides. It makes the collectors checking of a stamp easier, and makes the censors job easier as well. I believe many sellers are already compliant with that but not all.
I know I am now in the crosshairs for even starting this. I have heard from enough people though saying I am right, something I did not expect. I have also had emails saying if you leave tell me where you go and I will follow. That friends, is what you get when you provide good customer service and put the buyer as #1 through 10 in your list of 10 rules of selling. I brought people here with me from elsewhere for the very same reason.
I just scrolled down. Tim thinks my feelings are hurt? He sure doesn't know me! That sir is absolutely impossible to do. By anyone. He also missed my volunteering to be part of a jpeg review committee. But we need to enforce jpeg size rules first. Do I make money here? Yes. And that money is put back into stock to sell here first, and if it does not sell here then moved. Where it is listed for much higher prices because as everyone says, this site is different,and I agree 100%. Elsewhere its just a store front. When you sell at 20% at auction 33-39% in approval books (many stamps selling at 5,10 or 20 cents on those) just how much do you think is profit? If I don't sell here I don't buy for additional sales. I have a pretty good back inventory for this site so I'm good for a few months yet. I stated earlier I sell stamps because I love to. It's an alternative to collecting them. I sell other stuff for profit. That's where the money is made. Not here on SOR selling stamps.
Enough! There is work to be done and I'll look back on this tomorrow
Greg
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What screen and voice recording program do you recommend?
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I don't buy or sell here so I haven't read this thread until now...
What happened????
The rule sounds perfectly reasonable to me but it's sad that this has gotten a little sideways. One thing I know for sure is that Greg is one of the good guys.
He has helped out in a variety of ways and I think he's just the kind of seller SoR wants around.
Ernie
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Who is going to buy and pay for this item when it is completely unnecessary.
This site is run by VOLUNTEERS.
Tim has enough work just maintaining this site without workload being added to just to satisfy the whims of one or two.
Yes we can make criticisms and try to alter some rules etc BUT in the end one must realise that this is NOT a commercial site!!
This "system" does not suit everybody but it is the one that we have thanks to efforts by various people.
I have always been an advocate to keep rules and changes to a minimum simply because any change will ALWAYS effect/affect some individual members. We do not want to LOSE members, we want to INCREASE our membership for the benefit of ALL.
We ALL have to sacrifice our ideals at some point.
To quote The Rolling Stones....."You Can't Always Get What You Want"
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Although the comments are many, I have read them all.
I think the point that this site is run by volunteers has relevance.
Volunteers continue the site based upon rules that were made that may or may not ruffle feathers, so to speak, when said rules conflict with a listed item or whatever the topic may be at the moment that stirs up commentary.
Diplomacy and tact should be paramount in my opinion.
I am all for discussion and an exchange of opinions. After a certain point though, discussion can devolve into understated or full blown acrimony and that grows wearisome. Any point made is lost in sarcasm, heated opinions, etc.
I have reconsidered earlier opinions regarding current politics as a topic here and I try very hard to follow that notion. I think that at some point, a rule can be made or withdrawn. Another philosophy: Just follow the rule or don't and leave. If, for example, I wanted to discuss current politics, I have Facebook for that. If I wanted to sell certain stamps that run afoul of a rule here, then I can go somewhere else that accepts them for sale there. It's so easy.
I do not always agree with pronouncements made by volunteers who administer the site but I do not volunteer either nor am required to agree with anyone for that matter. Vice versa in this case is also perfectly acceptable: They do not have to agree with me.
After much thought, I personally conclude something that is very simple: we are free to stay or free to leave. It's no big deal. The fate of the world does not rest upon our personal contentions that, here anyway, go against a stated rule regarding stamps. Stamps!
Bruce
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I have been watching this thread and I figure I might as well throw my two cents worth in.
It seems people forget that this site wouldn't exist without the volunteers. HORRAY for the volunteers.
I received a message a couple of days ago about one of my listing showing a pencil mark.
The mark was in the selvage. I just deleted the item and that was it. So easy.
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Bruce/Stampme,
Very concise and to the point - excellent....
I am in total agreement.
(...and I don't want to lose Greg here, either!)
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Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Good rule Michael. I think we should apply it equally to Approval Book stamps of some value (selling above 25c?)
For the lower cost stamps that are the majority of what is being sold, I would require sellers to note that the stamps have writing on the back, especially in ink. And to alert the buyer to any visible flaw, by indicating it with an arrow, a footnote or an X on the scan!
These are my suggestions.
rrr....
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04:01:36pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
In the approval books, such notations can be made in the item number description. Not everyone will be versed enough to embed graphics into their book pages.
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Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
So mentioning is no longer good enough? OK. What I do find interesting is that damaged stamps do sell if marked down enough.
Greg
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01:21:40pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
You can sell damaged stamps as long as they meet the parameters to do so. You can set any price you want to a compliant listing.
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Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I have issues with this as you will see. I had two auctions just canceled. First the US lot. I described it as missing a perf. Is it really? The fact is the card I took it from said it was fine. The other stamp has a bent perf and was described as such. It too was cancelled. However had this stamp been BEHIND the other and NOT described as a bent perf, that is OK? Why? There is no rule that says you must show all stamps clearly. I brought this up after finding many sets that overlap in auctions.
Truly I believe we are nitpicking here. This rule is going to discourage people from listing anything at all that is not absolutely perfect and the buyers are going to want to pay no more than 20% CV for the stamp. Maybe the intent is to limit the number of auctions. For me, I said I would never relist an ended auction. Since everything must be almost certification perfect, when I actually manage to get them listed and passed by the censor I might as well keep listing them until they are sold
Here are pictures of the cancelled auctions. Actually the bent perf was straightened out but I didn't want to bother to reshoot it.
This however is OK
And we KNOW all the perfs are perfect how exactly?
Or maybe its just this site hates dealers.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
It is a simple matter.
All that is required is to follow the rules.
Sellers and buyers who do not follow the rules face consequences.
Please read, know and follow the rules.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
smauggie: Please don't be "smug"gie *
Greg/Soundcrest is making a serious point with well thought-out evidence provided. He deserves more than a throw-away response like that. I think his frustration is at least legitimate and worthy of an equally-considered response. And even if I - admittedly - don't totally get it, I think his sensitivity to a possible anti-"dealer" (whatever that species is) undercurrent probably has some basis in (his) experience.
And for what it's worth, Greg is one SoR member I buy from consistently - and would hold him up as a gold standard for good quality stamps and great service. I wouldn't want to risk losing him. (And by the way, he's an American - and I still
love him!!!)
Dave.
NOTE
* This is my (self-described) humorous play on words and not meant to be derisive to you.
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04:42:03pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Howdy! When I sign into SOR I always see the Motto? A stamp Club for People who love stamps. I think maybe you should consider taking that down or changing it.
I agree with Soundcrest, this is nitpickin. We seem two have two distinct groups of people here, 1. Those who love the hobby and love stamps as I do and a group who seem to want to 'Lord' it over all the rest. Your knowledge is gratefully received if presented properly, you don't have to make a person feel small or stupid.
I have received many stamps in the mail that are pen cancelled. I don't collect them but I have offered them to others on SOR if they want to pay the postage. You know what, they all went to new homes. There are people out there who love stamps and are happy collecting whatever they can get. Everyone doesn't have thousands of dollars to spend on expensive stamps.
The response from smauggie is uncalled for and he should be taken to task for it. He is currently on my case with more nitpickin. I received a message from him today (actually three identical messages) stating it was against the rules to sell damaged stamps with a value less than $5. He did not mention that a rule change had been made. He seems hell bent on trying to prove how powerful he is.
Well folks, as soon as I tie up all my loose ends in SOR I will be checking out. I have loved SOR and really enjoyed my time here. I have made some very good friends along the way and I will inform them I am leaving. I will also be looking for a buyer for my entire collection. Thanks to certain people in SOR I have lost my desire to collect.
I believe SOR should be looking for a way to inform collectors of serious rule changes. I also believe SOR Moderators should have more compassion for the beginner and novice collector. I have signed on pretty well everyday and received no inkling of change. Not everyone reads the bulletin boards everyday. I can see the demise of SOR very clearly now.
stampnut1953
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04:45:55pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I am in total agreement with Greg and Dave and Stampnut53.
Where would you like us to send complaints about all of the listed auctions that do not meet exacting criteria?
There are not enough hours in the day
I understand the thought was well intentioned but enforcement needs to be identical for ALL lots and ALL sellers - period. That is a tall order if you have more than one sheriff in town. i have no more interest in ever listing stamps here subject to interpretation by someone viewing a jpeg.
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07:06:57pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Let me address several comments made in the last few responses to this thread.
"Where would you like us to send complaints about all of the listed auctions that do not meet exacting criteria?"
This has been answered many times, and it is self-evident. If you want to report non-compliance in the sales platforms, contact the Auctioneer, the Assistant Auctioneer, the Assistant Approvals Moderator, or the Assistant Sales Platforms Moderator.
"I received a message from him today (actually three identical messages) stating it was against the rules to sell damaged stamps with a value less than $5. He did not mention that a rule change had been made. He seems hell bent on trying to prove how powerful he is."
If you scroll to the top of this message thread, you will see that the very first post is dated September 30, 2017, and it contains the information about the rule change. Scroll down a little bit more, and you will find a post dated October 12, 2017, where everyone was reminded of the rule change and that the enforcement of such would begin on October 18. You don't have to read the messages every day, but there was an almost three week advance notice, and a one week reminder about this. What else do you want?
"However had this stamp been BEHIND the other and NOT described as a bent perf, that is OK? Why? There is no rule that says you must show all stamps clearly."
It is true that there is no rule requiring that all stamps be fully displayed. However, and I have stated this many times every time this irrational logic is used by a seller to deflect off the fact that an item was non-compliant, NO, IT IS NOT OK IF A DAMAGED STAMP IS HIDDEN OR DISGUISED AND SOLD WITHOUT DISCLOSURE OF THE DAMAGE. Unless stated otherwise in the item description, a stamp, set of stamps or larger lot of stamps is considered to be sound. A buyer may file a dispute against a seller for selling an item that was "not as described", and the buyer's dispute will be upheld. If it is believed that a seller was acting fraudulently by hiding damaged stamps, then the seller may face expulsion from Stamporama.
"I understand the thought was well intentioned but enforcement needs to be identical for ALL lots and ALL sellers"
Thank you for telling us how to do our job. Enforcement is handled when a problem is found. We don't have an army of people here who can look at thousands of stamps every day. As Ralph has often said in the approvals, there are rules, and sellers are on the "honor system" to follow them. I will be happy to expand my four-plus hours a day I spend on Stamporama looking over things to eight or even more hours per day if you want to pay me.
We expect that the rules will be followed. Unfortunately there are some who want to test the system and cause unnecessary work for the volunteers. We try to be nice and ask that non-compliant items be edited to make them compliant. It is when the non-compliance continues despite our efforts to try to get someone to follow the rules that we actually impose the sanctions. Here is what the non-complaince rules state:
First Time - item(s) closed, if appropriate; reminder of the rules
Second Time - access to sales platforms suspended for 3 months
Third Time - permanent suspension to sales platforms and/or Stamporama
Strict enforcement of the rules would actually be easier than how we do it now where we try to give everyone as many chances as possible. I don't have any problem with the three strike process. Would you like that? Be careful what you ask for. The list of non-compliant sellers and buyers is quite long.
When we enforce the rules, we often get sellers who send us private messages similar to what Carol wrote here, "Why don't you go after the others?", or worse. There actually is quite a bit of enforcement that goes on. This is all done behind the scenes as it is not for public viewing or knowledge. Accusing us of not doing so, when you don't know the facts, is inappropriate. As I said, the list of people who have violated the rules is quite long.
Some people are always quick to start yelling and screaming and condemn, especially when they are notified for not following the rules. Instead of blasting this all over the place, how about talking it over with the moderator? If a mistake was made, the moderator can retract it. The Auctioneer can be contacted to review the action. But you have to give us a chance to do that. Some people think that public intimidation like the responses here will work in their favor. It won't.
I appreciate the sellers and buyers who want to work with us to make the sales platforms better. The ones who throw their tantrums mean very little to me. You want to go away, because your feelings were hurt? OK. See ya!
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07:11:39pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Jings!!.....Crivvens!!.....Help Ma Boab!!
"We seem two have two distinct groups of people here, 1. Those who love the hobby and love stamps as I do and a group who seem to want to 'Lord' it over all the rest. Your knowledge is gratefully received if presented properly, you don't have to make a person feel small or stupid. "
Goodness gracious me!!
"Well folks, as soon as I tie up all my loose ends in SOR I will be checking out. I have loved SOR and really enjoyed my time here. I have made some very good friends along the way and I will inform them I am leaving. I will also be looking for a buyer for my entire collection. Thanks to certain people in SOR I have lost my desire to collect."
I have always said Buyers Buy and Sellers Sell.
If there are no buyers there can be no sellers.
If there are no sellers there can be no buyers
There MUST be BALANCE/HARMONY between the two groups, otherwise it leads to FAILURE.
Over the past couple of months this site HAS tipped the balance towards the Buyers.
This site IS failing to recognise that our beloved hobby has many, many, many different levels of expertise and NOT everybody aspires to "Gold Medal" level.
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07:19:00pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Communication is always a problem on this site.
May we please have a list of ALL moderators and how to contact them PLEASE!!
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Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
It is nice to read that I am not alone. Truthfully based on what I was told I could list those two Italy stamps side by side, hiding the bent perf part of the stamp and that is legit. I would not do it now as it would be considered a "wise ass" thing to do so to speak. Personally I think there is an ulterior motive here in the long run - rid the site of dealers. Look at the mumbling's I read about for approval books. No stamps that sell for over 25 cents can be listed in an approval book if there is damage to the stamp. Then read the occasional comment about "high priced stamps don't belong in approval books". Connect the dots. Who has these high priced stamps to PUT in approval books? Usually dealers. I'm sorry, I sell all over the place and in fact I have been told that even the APS sales platform (and I admit to not knowing this first hand) bases sales on scans. You are REQUIRED to accept returns on ebay,Delcampe,Hipstamp and Amazon. Does this site NOT require that? Maybe THAT is the rule that needs enforcing.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I have said from day one when I heard about this, that if a seller stands behind every sale and will take back any stamp because of condition, and that thr scan is one that is easily seen without downloading the image and blowing it up, then THAT is good enough. If you go by the nitpick rule, then the seller can say to the buyer, sorry. The scan was good, the description was approved by the censor, I don't need to take it back. Hogwash.
I agree with Carol, but I won't get into doing something like bombarding the censor with listing after listing of stamps that "I" think are violating the rules. Its liable to get me suspended. She is correct. It's is someones interpretation of a jpeg. Is there a size requirement for those? And as she said,there are not enough hours in the day to go through every new listing and look for offenders.
Sorry Dave, but I will be moving the Monday night auctions elsewhere to reestablish my auction presence there. Once and if that happens auctions will decrease here from the Wednesday ones as well. Their bulk uploader is phenomenal and you need not put a country into it. It hits the site and populates it for you. Scans are just fine there as a description. I'd tell you where but no doubt there is a rule about that too. The anti dealer thing is that I believe that there is the perception of a) dealers make a ton of money, and don't contribute to anything here and b) that dealers should lower their prices even further because there are no fees. So a dealer like me who sells at 20% CV should lower their prices buy the 6% that they are not paying. Buyers are looking for 18.8%?
If you look at my blurb you will see this - My goal is to make you happy! I was in the approval business from 1981-2004 for the sole reason of helping people with their collections. When the business changed I had to change with it. It was true in 1981, and it is true in 2017. I make an attempt to find and list both in approval books and certainly at auction stamps that may be missing from a collectors collection. I list at 20% on most auctions. You certainly don't get rich selling at prices like that and honestly, as long as I make enough to buy more stuff to list and pay my daughter to list postcards for me on another site, I'm happy. I check from time to time what others sell and rarely do I find what I list. I feel like I am providing stamps that people need, which is the same feeling I had when I was in the approval business. The other sites are just stores to me. This is more like the stamp club that used to meet in my garage when I was 12.
This is NOT public humiliation or whatever you think. This is a response to the same exact email I got twice from the censor when I questioned him. I took it to mean "I'm not getting involved with you - follow the rules". Sorry, but when I don't receive an answer I am not pleased. Follow the rules is not an answer. Saying "well the US stamp may not be damaged its hard to tell. I'll let it go" IS an answer. It meant that you LOOKED at what I was talking about
Its a shame if we start to lose members here due to rules, or rather inflexible rules. The collectors are the ultimate losers.
Greg
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
So reading Michaels entry we are suspended due to someones interpretation of a jpeg. Fantastic.
Greg
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Why is it that the "Dealers" are feeling singled out here. The rules apply to all sellers and buyers. I am a little disappointed that people who get to sell for free on this site have issues with having to follow the rules.
How much money has been saved by dealers selling here for free? If the only cost to doing business here is adherence to the rules I think complaining about failing to identify a damaged stamp etc. isn't to much to ask.
Just my 2 cents.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Ah, Alyn see my amended post above. 6% is what I save. So if I sell a $2.00 CV stamp for 40 cents I save 2.4 cents, or $6 on a $100 stamp (wishful thinking to be sure)During the course of an average auction week (and I do not list expensive lots as they do not sell here) I MIGHT be saving 4-5 dollars. And thats a GOOD auction week
Greg
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07:42:11pm
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
ALYN:-
It is not the rules that are the problem.
It is the communication.
It is the tone of the anouncments, enforcements.
They are given in language as if it is a dictat from above and always given with the threat of suspension.
Also the tone suggests ALL Sellers are BAD guys.
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07:44:45pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
" I read about for approval books. No stamps that sell for over 25 cents can be listed in an approval book if there is damage to the stamp. Then read the occasional comment about "high priced stamps don't belong in approval books"."
THERE ARE NO RULES THAT STATE THIS.
"hiding the bent perf part of the stamp and that is legit"
You bring this up over and over again. You know perfectly well that it is not legit if the damage is not disclosed.
"So reading Michaels entry we are suspended due to someones interpretation of a jpeg."
Nothing like that was said. If you are contacted for non-compliance, and you do not agree with it REPLY TO THE MODERATOR IN PRIVATE MESSAGES TO WORK OUT THE PROBLEM. You might be surprised how discussing something like that can bring a better understanding to both the seller and the moderator (especially someone new who is learning the job unless the goal is public humiliation and intimidation). COMMUNICATE!!
"inflexible rules"
More like inflexible sellers. Did I not state that we try to work with everyone to give them as many chances as possible?
"but I won't get into doing something like bombarding the censor with listing after listing of stamps that "I" think are violating the rules. Should be. Its liable to get me suspended. "
You know better than that. We get many reports from people about potential non-compliant items. We take a look at them, and act, if necessary. We appreciate the help.
One last thing. Stamporama is NOT: ebay, HipStamp, Delcampe, Amazon, APS or any other site. On HipStamp, people who don't like how that site works want to make it more like ebay. Get over it.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
It simply is not worth the effort to discuss this. I will leave this thread be and work things out on my own
Greg
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
"6% is what I save"
Thanks for that @Soundcrest, but the potential savings is there. If I look at your current listings I believe you have 228 items listed in the Auctions. If Standard Ebay rates apply that means you have already saved: $53.40 on insertion fees, plus if every thing sells at only the price reflected now that is another $19.17. This is a potential total savings of $72.57.
While I understand that this is if everything sells is is still a significant amount saved.
As to your pricing, I will pay what I deem to be a fair price for the stamps on offer and I don't expect you to sell less than what makes sense to you.
Again just my point of view.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Hi Alyn,
You make an assumption with the fees. I have an anchor store. I can list 1000 stamps at auction a month for free as well as 10,000 store items. I sell much more than stamps. Stamp sales is a relatively small percentage of $$$ sold on ebay.
A good week on SOR is about $75 and which is about $5.
Greg
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
"It is not the rules that are the problem.
It is the communication.
It is the tone of the anouncments, enforcements.
They are given in language as if it is a dictat from above and always given with the threat of suspension.
Also the tone suggests ALL Sellers are BAD guys."
I agree that communication is a huge part of the problem. But my point is when there are no costs involved that following the established rules is an investment that makes sense.
Also, I don't see it as suggesting all sellers are bad. But again that is just my point of view.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
All I can say to our auctioneer is BRAVO!
This is LOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
"You make an assumption with the fees. I have an anchor store. I can list 1000 stamps at auction a month for free as well as 10,000 store items. I sell much more than stamps. Stamp sales is a relatively small percentage of $$$ sold on ebay. "
That is fine but how much does an anchor store cost you per month? I am pretty sure whether it is the $349.95 or $299.95 it is more than the 0.00 asked for here to sell. Even if you appropriation only your stamp stuff it is still a great deal not to pay anything here.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Very tough to figure that out.
My store inventory is $75,563.09. I don't see a dollar value on the breakdown of the various subgroupings within the store. Of the 6800 items but only 844 are stamps, but the dollar amount is a much smaller percentage. I would ball park my ebay sales stamp wise at maybe $200 a month, and of that probably $50 is the store. The rest is auction. No matter how you want to slice it the cost of doing business stamp wise on ebay is very very little. People don't pay a lot for stamps there either!
I would not have an anchor store if all I was selling was stamps. I got it when I branched out into other areas which sell a lot better. I sell stamps because I enjoy it. I sell everything else to make a buck
Greg
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03:04:35am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
It takes all sorts to make a world.
WE are all just Humans. Mistakes and errors will occur. All reasonable sellers will sort out any errors/mistakes.
Those of us with poor eyesight or are housebound also recognise that it is probable that we may let the odd error slip through and are prepared to rectify any situation.
When your hobby stops being fun then its time to find something else.
P.S. It is not always all about money.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
After reading every word of this thread I can see both sides. I'm basically a collector but I sell here. The time it takes (me anyway) to prepare and present an approval book is many, many hours. I do it because I have the time and actually enjoy it. If I was a dealer it wouldn't be worth it. I can understand Soundcrest's concerns. A seller like him who backs up all his sales to the buyers satisfaction (and has for decades) is not a seller any platform wants to lose because of over regulation. He and most sellers on this cite are fine working on the honor system (with current means of moderator involvement) and I believe most buyers are satisfied also. However, I (and the most of us) do not know the amount of complaints the moderators receive. I also do want to say that whenever I was contacted by a moderator (twice, I believe) they were constructive, helpful and humble. This cite is one of a kind and so far has existed on the trust of members- whether buying and selling or trading. I would advocate letting the marketplace determine which sellers and buyers are here. If a dealer/seller consistently sells damaged stamps and won't allow returns for those stamps the current rules in place give the moderators the means to handle the situation when multiple complaints are registered. Regulation is always a sticky issue.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I propose this. A JPG review committee as that seems to be one of the problems with the closing of listings. It's an opinion. Any person who cannot come to an agreement with the auctioneer or the censor, can take it up with a 3 person committee for review. The listing stands as is until the committee makes their review. I will put my money where my mouth is and offer to be one of those people reviewing the listing. I will say this however. The image better be large enough that when I open it in a new tab I can see the "discussion point" and not have to download it and blow it up. If I have to do that then I will cast a negative vote. There is no reason on earth why images cannot be a size that is easily viewed and a lot of what I see fall into the too small category. From what I know you can even resize them with your phone. I know this because my daughter takes pictures of my postcards with her phone and resizes them to the proper width to upload. I don't know how she does it but shes 30 and I'm 66. I still think phones are for making phone calls
Greg
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19 Oct 2017
09:25:01am
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
For the record, I have nothing to do with creating or administering the auction rule, however, I will go on the record as being in favour of it.
And this discussion is getting out of hand.
How simple can it be?
All the rule says is:
1) Damage must be described, not just "rely on scan".
2) Cheap (under $5 catalogue value) damaged stamps are not wanted in the auction.
3) Listings of damaged stamps must include a catalogue value in the description to show compliance with #2.
4) "Damage" is clearly defined as "repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink".
How much simpler can it be?
In essence, buyers have the right to assume that stamps they purchase are sound, unless otherwise specifically described.
As far as targeting dealers is concerned, nothing in the rules suggests that. I am a full time dealer, and none of these rules bother me because they are practices I would follow anyway, and I think any dealer with any experience would be the same.
In fact, as a buyer, I believe these rules will have more of an impact in protecting me from the novice sellers -- the guys who list 25c catalogue items with torn corners -- that disgusts me and casts a bad light on the auction as a whole.
Nobody is saying you can't sell a faulty stamp. As a club, we are just saying to disclose the condition accurately, and limit such offerings to higher value stamps that people are actually likely to buy.
Roy
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12:10:51pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
What I have been trying to point out is that its the tone of the "Announcement" and nearly always with a threat.
Members have different visual accuity therefore mistakes will happen and faults may not be noticed by the seller. (We are all ageing). Especially when making up an approval book of 100+ stamps, selling for 5-10c each.
Any reasonable seller will rectify any mistake.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
we agree, Ian,
reasonable sellers will fix mistakes.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
as to tone, here's what was written (can't imagine we are talking about tone without seeing what was sent)
"
"Regarding Lot: 2063152
Martinique #14 Used
Hi Gregory,
It looks like the corner is bent/creased on this stamp. If that is the case please adjust the listing to describe the fault within 24 hours.
Faulty stamps must have their faults described in the lot.
I have attached the rule below. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
Antonio
Sales Platform Assistant Moderator
Selling rules:
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot."
"
let me reiterate the entire transaction aspect of this message:
"It looks like the corner is bent/creased on this stamp. If that is the case please adjust the listing to describe the fault within 24 hours."
This is presented in an "if/then" scenario. It's not didactic, nor delivered from on high. Instead, Antonio says something akin to "If I see this correctly, there's a problem that should be fixed; please do so in the next 24 hours"
If it's not, then say so.
I looked at the stamp in question this morning. It does look like it's creased at the upper right. Further, it looks like there's a scuff at the lower left. could be optics, but we're looking to make sure that when people buy stamps, they buy what they thought was listed based on the description.
I really don't get where all the fury is coming from.
And I truly don't understand why those of you who profess to want good manners haven't had the decency to try to iron this out back channel instead of airing your laundy for all to see.
David
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
David those were not the listings that were cancelled. Higher up in this thread you will see the cancelled listings. The US? I don't know if its missing a perf on the lower left but I mentioned it. Probably a mistake. There was no discussion. Cancelled. If that stamp is missing a perf than there are probably 100's of stamps misdescribed out there. Missing a perf. One perf shorter than another. A nubbed perf. Etc. The bent Italy perf? I'll give you that but again no discussion. Cancelled.
My opinion is that all stamps in a set must be shown at auction, and that images should be of such a size that you don't have to blow them up was met with very poor reception. Fine. It's your bat, your ball, your bases so to speak so I will play the game accordingly
I did do a quick check of all new auctions this morning and book marked a few of the many that were bad or had questionable descriptions. "The scan is the item you will receive" is a description? Took all of 15 minutes to bookmark and download the images. Now if these listings look the same tomorrow what is one to think? Animal Farm comes to mind.
I was no longer going to bother with this thread but since I was mentioned by name, I thought clarification was necessary.
Greg
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01:30:48pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Jings!!.....Crivvens!!.....Help Ma Boab!!
George Orwell being mentioned.
Where are the Shakespeare quotes?
Or should it be Del Boy from Only Fools and Horses? (This time next year we could be Millionaires).
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01:32:39pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
"Now if these listings look the same tomorrow what is one to think?"
Maybe that the volunteers didn't have time to look at them, because they have other things to do in their lives rather than spend all day and longer unpaid working on the site?
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04:54:44pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Ok- one more comment into the morass from a more pragmatic point.
Suppose I was looking at groups of stamps to buy. The Group 1 was the stamps from Soundcrest shown earlier in this thread - the post that triggered the latest furor.
Group 2 was the same stamps, but these were all so badly off-center that the perfs on one side and the top were cut into the design. With the older Italian issues, that sometimes happens. But the perfs were OK.
Group 3 was well centered, but the entire feature of the designs was under a big, black blob of cancellation. Without the catalog numbers, you couldn't even be sure what they were. But the perfs were OK.
The fourth group had both a seriously off-center design and a blob cancellation.
Groups 2, 3, and 4 meet the criterion of no damage.
Which one would I buy? Group 1.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Dollhaus - You are certainly free to make that choice assuming the lot is properly described and has a catalog value of $5 US or more.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
So the lot needs to cat $5? As in I could add a Great Britain stamp that rarely if ever sells for more than 10 cents on a dollar to a damaged stamp, bring the CV up to $5 point out the obvious and then list it as a "group"? See there are always work arounds. You just have to think them up!
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05:48:44pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
That is not a work-around, and it didn't have to be thought up. It was already in the rule.
However, you do have to justify the catalog value of the set/lot by identifying each stamp, and providing the catalog number and the proper catalog citation (catalog name and year).
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Not a problem to do such. It just allows stamps under $5 with faults to be listed, and the fault pointed out along with a good stamp that pushes the total of the lot to over $5. It gives collectors the ability to purchase a stamp with a "bent perf" that they REALLY dont mind purchasing in that condition but could not as the stamp cats for say $3 and would not be allowed. Or am I reading this wrong. I understand the rule to state that no stamp under $5 can be listed if it has faults correct? Even pointing them put is not enough.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I agree with Roy.
And I am a little saddened that we are looking at "ways to scam the system" at a friendly on-line club.
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06:23:37pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Greg, this is the portion of the rule that applies (bold added for emphasis):
Single stamps and sets of stamps with a general catalog value of less than $5.00 USD (approximately 4.25 Euros; 4.00 GBP; $6.25 AUD; $6.25 CAD, for example) that contain any or all of the defects described in Rule C8a may not be offered for sale in the auctions.
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06:29:44pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Soundcrest:-
Just to point out:- The original images you show has a number of Vatican City stamps overlapping.
This "collection" of Vatican stamps should have been withdrawn by the seller
Why??....The fourth stamp from the left has a missing perf!! (Hee Hee Hee).
(see how easy it is to miss a single missing perf)
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Exactly my point Ian. Who knows with that sellers listings what you are getting!
Michael you cleared it up (well I was pretty sure of it anyway). I suppose my gripe about this whole issue is this. A group of people are telling other people what they are allowed to buy and collect. Thats what it REALLY boils down to and you have no idea how much that bothers me. Groups of people deciding for me what is best for me. Sound like any group (not on SOR) you know? I will leave it at that. I do not intentionally list damaged stamps but now I know it can be done even with the cheap ones should I come across something that I think another collector would like to have. You cannot possibly imagine how much "free stuff" I have to give away if need be. Years worth. many years worth.
It is not scamming the system. It is letting collectors have free will as to what they can buy. That's part of the perception problem here with dealers. People think we put money first customer wants second. At least for me it is not like that at all. People on this site are collectors. If they are building a collection with the thought that this is their nest egg in the future i have some REALLY bad news for them. Any dealer here will tell you the more expensive the collection, unless you have tons of unbelievable high quality stamps, the less in percentage of cv you will get if you go to sell it. Dealers am I lying about this? Stamp collecting, like any collecting should be done as a hobby, nothing more. If you don't believe me take a look at what is for sale on ebay and look up the CV. Now guess what the dealer may have paid. As I said, people should never use hobbies as investments. Hobby markets crash.
This brings us full circle. Notice at no point did I criticize telling sellers what they can sell. Sellers should be able to sell whatever a collector wants to buy, not what someone says they should buy. I do not believe sellers are trying to "put one over" I do think though if a seller has at auction 9 stamps from German East Africa individually listed, each having a missing perf, every single one of them would sell. Why? How many German East Africa stamps show up here at auction? Under the $5 rule they could not be listed. They could be listed with a couple of pairs of say MNH Sweden stamps, put in a second image that put the CV over $5.(and before you ask, no, those stamps cost me literally nothing. There are just too many of the same stamps. Hundreds.) Is that a scam? No, it is putting stamps into the hands of collectors, stamps they might not have. Its the collector that is #1. Not the dealer. Not the rule makers. Not the enforcers. The collectors. And I will do everything I can to get stamps into peoples hands that want them. Period.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Greg,
Your comments are all about how you are affected. You are making money out of Stamporama, be it a small amount. You have no idea how many thousands of hours are put in by the volunteers who keep this site working. The sales team and the discussion board moderators do an amazing job in difficult situations because you get your feeling hurt. When you are ready to give something back to the club I'll take you seriously.
Tim.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I think this thread has given me a big headache ! - One of the reasons I do not bother with auctions because I can not be spending too much time looking at the stamps in such detail to determine if there may be a flaw. I never put up torn stamps - I just toss them. I may have been guilty of having stamps with pen notations in the back but unless i am listing something as Mint Never Hinged - I just do not look at every stamp that closely. As far as approvals - if a buyer gets any stamps from me that are in a condition that they feel is no good - all they have to do is message me and tell me about them and I gladly offer refunds and they can just discard the stamps - I do not need them back. IF a stamp is a higher value item - I certainly take more care to make sure it has no issues like thins or cut perfs before I send it off. I have been doing this on Hipstamp/Bidstart for many years and have a feedback of close to 16000 with a 100% and I always take care of my buyers. Since I am not doing this as a business and the majority of what I sell is from old collections from long ago -there is no loss. Steve
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08:39:09pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I feel the same way Steve does. I only have 10,000 feedback at 100% on the other venues but have also sold over 4000 stamps on here with no complaints. I offer full refund (no return required on stamps under a few dollars) and include a refund of the postage cost.
I can live with rules, but things should be able to be discussed in a civil manner. When you combine micro-management with a "because I said so" attitude I don't need the aggravation. When you create rules that are not (and cannot be) equally enforced you create a situation where it is natural to go after the easy targets. Basic management 101 and I have a lot of corporate and government experience on both sides of that fence.
With all due respect the answers to what at least started out to be legitimate concerns sound more like they come from that other discussion board based in Australia.
I will continue to utilize the club for the incredible amount of information provided but until open communication and a degree of civility return I think I will try to stay out of anything controversial.
What a shame.
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08:59:46pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Greg, note that none of these rules prevent someone from selling damaged stamps in the classified ads. If you want to put a bagful of floor sweepings, you can offer it in the classified ads. You won't get any more one-on-one with another member here with selling, buying, trading, etc. transactions than there.
"A group of people are telling other people what they are allowed to buy and collect. Thats what it REALLY boils down to and you have no idea how much that bothers me. Groups of people deciding for me what is best for me."
No Greg. You have that wrong. The group of people who manage this site are doing and making decisions that they believe are best for the site and the members as a whole, not any one individual or small group of individuals. Ebay tells its sellers what they can and can't sell. Hipstamp tells its sellers what it can and can't sell. I'm sure Delcampe and every other sales web site on the internet does the same. Why do you expect different from this site? Actually our rules are more lax than the rules on the other sites.
Rules are made to govern the conduct of all the people using the site. Users have the choice to follow the rules, or if they don't want to, find another site that is more to their liking.
Carol, you are correct. None of this would have happened had the matter been responded to through private messages to ask for a second opinion, and even then if the second opinion wasn't acceptable, it could have been appealed to the Auctioneer for a third. There was a poor decision made that launched a series of unfortunate events that were unnecessary.
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10:22:36pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
@Smauggie
"Dollhaus - You are certainly free to make that choice assuming the lot is properly described and has a catalog value of $5 US or more."
Smauggie, you missed my point completely. I want to have the option to buy or not buy stamps that meet my needs regardless of any catalog value. Your interpretation of the rules is correct, but look at what that does to a buyer. You remove the opportunity for a buyer to get what he wants, leaving him with the choice of what he considers inferior items or nothing at all. There's something wrong with a system such as that.
I don't know the back story on this. Where did the $5 come from? What led to this? What were the problems? Surely some impetus caused this change. What was it? Some explanation of the whys and therefores would certainly have greased the skids a lot better than a diktat from on high.
I will ask you: If you were faced with a choice between one of the stamps Soundcrest posted or the same stamp off-center with a killer cancellation, which would you pick?
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12:10:16am
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
This thread is an example of what happens when a seller doesn't like that we have enforced the rules against him.
Now, here is a typical response that we receive in Private Messages when we enforce the rules against many other sellers. (Note that this is a real response received from a seller:
"I'll just sell my shitty stamps elsewhere. You people can just kiss my ass."
This is a common response when someone gets caught. Immature, childish, and totally uncalled for. It is also a violation of the SOR Code of Conduct.
We enforce the rules, and we get repaid by abusive people such as this one.
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Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Michael it is not just telling sellers what they can sell, Certainly every site has that right to do so. Its telling collectors what they can buy and that is done here buy telling a seller they are forbidden to list a stamp that has a CV of under $5 if it has a fault. Is that not what the rule says? Why are you telling a collector that a set of 2 stamps that catalog for $4 and would be listed at auction for 80 cents cannot be sold because one stamp has a short perf? What if I went into a supermarket, saw an apple I wanted,the only apple in the basket and was told, no you can't have that. It has a bruise and the government says I cannot sell you a bruised apple. Sorry. It's the same exact thing in my book. If you want to criticize condition on expensive stamps, I'm good with that. As I have said before I do not intentionally list damaged stamps, You are however allowing a one person team to decide whether a stamp has a short perf, a missing perf a nubbed perf etc using an image that lets be honest, may not be the highest quality. You sell on Hipstamp. You know how the images work there. Mouse over for detail. You've seen some of the images here as well. Are they of "roll over" quality? Hardly.
My two stamps were canceled, no discussion. No email saying "would you please fix these?" Nada. I was not told to seek a second opinion. (and amending this, no my feelings were not HURT. I didn't crawl into a safe space with playdoh) So I fixed the description and put them back up. Will they sell? Honestly, you know I don't care about that. All I care about is that if a collector wants them, they should be able to have them and I take it that the collector has the intelligence (since I give them a decent photo) to look at the photo and make a decision based on their thought process not someone elses. As you said Michael "a group of people deciding whats best for the site", or a group of people telling other people what is best for them. Oh how it is so hard to keep comparisons with what goes on in the outside world out of this discussion...... Do as I say (you can't buy that) because I know better for you than you do.
And Tom does raise some interesting questions. I hope to see the answers to them, especially the $5 question. Percentage wise I sell many more stamps under $1 (which is 20% of $5) than over a dollar.
Michael the response that you received is totally immature and me, if in your position, thats a boot. A person that takes that attitude unless he was being harassed for something like a .00001 difference in the size of the perfs (and again, with what is allowed here as images who knows) that kind of response is uncalled for. However I truly believe that if we had image size requirements, and I think maybe a couple of years ago we had, or it was at least proposed, a lot of this nonsense would disappear. I know I have to reduce some of my images to make the grade as they are too big. Thats because elsewhere I need a mouseable image. I'm not saying Tim should work that into the listings, but rather insist on an image at least 6-700 pixels on one of the sides. It makes the collectors checking of a stamp easier, and makes the censors job easier as well. I believe many sellers are already compliant with that but not all.
I know I am now in the crosshairs for even starting this. I have heard from enough people though saying I am right, something I did not expect. I have also had emails saying if you leave tell me where you go and I will follow. That friends, is what you get when you provide good customer service and put the buyer as #1 through 10 in your list of 10 rules of selling. I brought people here with me from elsewhere for the very same reason.
I just scrolled down. Tim thinks my feelings are hurt? He sure doesn't know me! That sir is absolutely impossible to do. By anyone. He also missed my volunteering to be part of a jpeg review committee. But we need to enforce jpeg size rules first. Do I make money here? Yes. And that money is put back into stock to sell here first, and if it does not sell here then moved. Where it is listed for much higher prices because as everyone says, this site is different,and I agree 100%. Elsewhere its just a store front. When you sell at 20% at auction 33-39% in approval books (many stamps selling at 5,10 or 20 cents on those) just how much do you think is profit? If I don't sell here I don't buy for additional sales. I have a pretty good back inventory for this site so I'm good for a few months yet. I stated earlier I sell stamps because I love to. It's an alternative to collecting them. I sell other stuff for profit. That's where the money is made. Not here on SOR selling stamps.
Enough! There is work to be done and I'll look back on this tomorrow
Greg
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
What screen and voice recording program do you recommend?
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06:52:11am
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I don't buy or sell here so I haven't read this thread until now...
What happened????
The rule sounds perfectly reasonable to me but it's sad that this has gotten a little sideways. One thing I know for sure is that Greg is one of the good guys.
He has helped out in a variety of ways and I think he's just the kind of seller SoR wants around.
Ernie
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07:03:53am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Who is going to buy and pay for this item when it is completely unnecessary.
This site is run by VOLUNTEERS.
Tim has enough work just maintaining this site without workload being added to just to satisfy the whims of one or two.
Yes we can make criticisms and try to alter some rules etc BUT in the end one must realise that this is NOT a commercial site!!
This "system" does not suit everybody but it is the one that we have thanks to efforts by various people.
I have always been an advocate to keep rules and changes to a minimum simply because any change will ALWAYS effect/affect some individual members. We do not want to LOSE members, we want to INCREASE our membership for the benefit of ALL.
We ALL have to sacrifice our ideals at some point.
To quote The Rolling Stones....."You Can't Always Get What You Want"
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03:03:13pm
re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Although the comments are many, I have read them all.
I think the point that this site is run by volunteers has relevance.
Volunteers continue the site based upon rules that were made that may or may not ruffle feathers, so to speak, when said rules conflict with a listed item or whatever the topic may be at the moment that stirs up commentary.
Diplomacy and tact should be paramount in my opinion.
I am all for discussion and an exchange of opinions. After a certain point though, discussion can devolve into understated or full blown acrimony and that grows wearisome. Any point made is lost in sarcasm, heated opinions, etc.
I have reconsidered earlier opinions regarding current politics as a topic here and I try very hard to follow that notion. I think that at some point, a rule can be made or withdrawn. Another philosophy: Just follow the rule or don't and leave. If, for example, I wanted to discuss current politics, I have Facebook for that. If I wanted to sell certain stamps that run afoul of a rule here, then I can go somewhere else that accepts them for sale there. It's so easy.
I do not always agree with pronouncements made by volunteers who administer the site but I do not volunteer either nor am required to agree with anyone for that matter. Vice versa in this case is also perfectly acceptable: They do not have to agree with me.
After much thought, I personally conclude something that is very simple: we are free to stay or free to leave. It's no big deal. The fate of the world does not rest upon our personal contentions that, here anyway, go against a stated rule regarding stamps. Stamps!
Bruce
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
I have been watching this thread and I figure I might as well throw my two cents worth in.
It seems people forget that this site wouldn't exist without the volunteers. HORRAY for the volunteers.
I received a message a couple of days ago about one of my listing showing a pencil mark.
The mark was in the selvage. I just deleted the item and that was it. So easy.
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re: Auction Rule Change Regarding Selling Damaged Stamps and Stamps With Extraneous Marks - Discussion
Bruce/Stampme,
Very concise and to the point - excellent....
I am in total agreement.
(...and I don't want to lose Greg here, either!)
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