Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Is this a change? I have not received a notification from PayPal about this. But then again, as an "international" user I have the dubious honour of paying higher fees anyway so maybe nothing changes for me...
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I saw an article on this yesterday.. This is the important part that I saw: Steve
PayPal said Friday it is raising fees for some of its newer products.... The changes will affect how much PayPal merchants pay per transaction, and take effect August 2nd...... The new, higher rates will apply to the company’s newer products, like PayPal Checkout, and Pay with Venmo......For PayPal digital payments with its PayPal Checkout, Pay with Venmo, PayPal Credit, Pay in 4, PayPal Pay with Rewards, and Checkout with crypto, the new rate for online transactions will be 3.49 percent plus $0.491 per transaction......For US merchants who have custom, non-standard pricing, rates will remain unchanged ...
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The article I saw left out a few of those details...
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It seems that my kids, and our younger friends, have all been using e-transfers (ending money via email between banks/credit unions) for years. There seems to be no fees attached; and despite our early reluctance, we have used this method successfully a dozen times in the past 6 months.
Is that an alternative to PayPal among trusted SOR members?
One thing I don't know is if it is possible between Canadian & US institutions.
Thoughts?
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Dave, it is usable here, I have personally done this buying stamps. It is a matter knowing an email address and arranging a password for the recipient in order for them to collect.
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I have used Zelle to send and receive payments between family and friends. There is no recourse, so it really has to be among trusted parties.
I don't think there are any fees -- at least I and my friends and family have not incurred any with our respective financial institutions. I don't know if it's available outside of the US.
It was very easy to set up.
For what it's worth, I am with a very large bank, and one of my family members is with a tiny credit union, and both institutions use it.
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I recently discovered that there is an option for lowering PayPal fees for smaller transactions. It is called micropayments.
From the PayPal section on fees:
"Subject to application and pre-approval by PayPal, you may upgrade an existing account to receive the Micropayment rate. Micropayment rates can be ideal as an alternative to standard commercial transaction rates for businesses that process payments under 10.00 USD. If you upgrade to the Micropayment rate, this rate will apply to all commercial transaction payments received into your applicable PayPal account. Please contact us to apply for the Micropayment rate."
The micropayment rate (U.S.) is $.05 plus 5% of the amount. Here is a comparison of the standard rate and the micropayment rate for different transaction amounts:
trans_micro__standard
$5_____0.30____0.45
$10____0.55____0.59
$15____0.80____0.74
$20____1.05____0.88
$12____0.65____0.65
For transactions of less than $12 the micropayment option is better.
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Well Carol (WebPaper) was right and I was wrong afterall. The PayPal increase went into effect today. I had a few invoices paid and the new rate of 49 cents plus 3.49% was applied. It is funny I had one transaction for some reason that still had the old rate applied - not sure how that happened. I have to start a minimum amount now for any PayPal transaction. Example - I had a small order which with shipping only totaled $1.95. With the postage and paypal fee I actually lost 11 cents on this transaction. Even on larger amounts now - I am going to wind up loosing money on many of my sales. I will just have to raise my shipping rates. Between this and the postage increase coming this month - this is getting to be a real problem. These were US invoices - I assume the rate for international payments must have gone up as well. Are we permitted to give a shipping discount if someone pays by check or cash ? I have seensome sellers do that but I did not know we could overcharge someone only because they paid with PayPal ? Steve
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If most of your transactions are small, you could consider the PayPal micropayment plan. In the U.S. it's $.09 fixed plus 4.99%.
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Micropayments sound good but I have spent hours trying to set it up to no avail…
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I tried to investigate that - but I could not figure out how to set that up. I think you need a business account in PayPal not a personal account. I am not running a business ! Steve
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It looks like Paypal does not need us little guys either. I may have to ask for a check instead of paypal. i want to sell stamps i do not need at a fair price..but it takes time and supplies to do it. I suppose it will sort out as most things do.
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Was there a wholesale price increase of bits to cause this increase? (Ha)
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07:47:58am
Please, I hope cheques don't become the rule - it's hard on foreign buyers. In Canada you can't even send foreign money orders any more and bank drafts are pricey. Maybe we'll all have to learn how to wire money. For me PayPal is so easy, so if the fees are going up you'll just have to charge more. Please don't drop PayPal!!
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"Please don't drop PayPal!!"
It was only a matter of time before the likes of Paypal increased their charges and they will continue to increase.
Once companies get the lions share of the market, prices go up and up and up.
Stamps are like all commodities the costs will continue to rise. Remember when there "penny" mixtures? Where are they now? Gone, finito, disappeared!
I used to be able to buy a quality mixed box at auction for £20 I now have to pay £100+.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJCdz6Rn3ms
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David;
I've been accepting e-transfers from Stamporama Canadian members with absolutely no problem.
It's hassle free, instant payment with no fees to either sender or receiver.
Bear in mind that while it's possible to send money from a Canadian bank to the US via Interac's partnership with Mastercard and Western Union, the service is only available to Canadian bank account holders, and therefore it's not possible to send an Interac e-Transfer from the US to Canada.
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I have no idea what an e-transfer is but I suppose it is similar to a bank transfer within the euro zone over here. I can send and receive money from anyone with a Euro currency bank account. Within the Netherlands the money is almost instantaneously on my account, for a transfer from a foreign account it takes one or two days. No additional charges (yet). PayPal is only for when I deal with people from overseas.
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Steve I changed my invoicing terms last week which of course messed up trying to combine things. I will no longer send an invoice for under $10. I sent some small ones under a two dollars and they had no PayPal link. Does't matter. I asked for a check in lieu of PayPal but everyone knows that even with no link on the invoice, they send money direct to your email address. Therefore no more small invoices. I seem to recall rants about sellers charging PayPal fees on there invoices so I do not think that is an option. On hip I simply upped my shipping.
Greg
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07:21:13pm
I've bought a lot of stamps from Greg over the last couple years and respect his $10 rule. I think I always reach at least that much with him anyway. But there are several buyers that usually only issue cheap appraisal books - I would never reach a comparable amount with them since most items they offer are $0.10 or less. There's got to be another way for people like this. Somehow invoicing once a year doesn't sound very practical. Just sorta thinking out loud!
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Are sellers permitted to charge more and hold the remaining as credit? This would solve most of the problems I think. Some people might prefer that as they would get their stamps right away. I have held money on account when a buyer accidentally pays an invoice twice.
Greg
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"There's got to be another way for people like this. Somehow invoicing once a year doesn't sound very practical."
The situation will only get worse over time as paypal fees increase and postage costs increase.
We may have to alter our rules so that every buyer and every seller know exactly where they stand and what is expected of them.
Currently it is a complete mish mash due to General Rule A5:-
"Sellers and buyers may mutually agree to alter the terms and conditions of any purchase. However, unless mutually agreed upon in writing (private messages are acceptable) by both parties, the changes are not valid, and no assumption may be made by either party that the other agreed to the changes"
In the real world Sellers have little or no option but to secede to any buyers demands for dragging out payment of purchases. If the Seller refuses then they lose future sales. Why should a Seller have to wait months for payment because the Buyer decides to buy one stamp a week from a seller and does not want to pay for 3 to 6 months because it is uneconomical to them "due to the postage costs".
I have had buyers purchase the one stamp that has been listed 3 times in the Approvals over a couple of months, yet never paid for any stamps over that period. Why did they not buy that stamp when it first appeared?
What I would like to see is that whenever a purchase is made then an invoice is sent to the Buyer (This lets the Buyer know what they have purchased and how much they are paying for shipping). The Buyer can then decide whether they wish to pay or hang on to see if the Seller lists anything else they may desire. At the end of each month the Seller then sends an Invoice to every Buyer with an outstanding invoice. (This reminds the Buyer that they have an oustanding invoice and that the Seller is still alive!). By the second end of the month the Buyer must pay the outstanding invoice no matter what the amount is!
I know that will not please some but why should a Buyer expect to have a stamp "put aside"
when another member may have wanted that item and would pay the seller quicker than several months? Is that being selfish, inconsiderate, unrespectful to other members?
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This issue seems to be pretty much limited to StampoRama.
Hardly a week goes by on my store where I don't get at least one, sometimes several, orders for individual stamps ranging from 8 cents on up (mostly under 50 cents). 8 cents for the stamp and $1.50 for S/H.
Since 2007 I have only ever had one person request a reduced S/H charge. They wanted to purchase a stamp for well under a dollar and said they would not pay over 55 cents S/H because that was all it would cost me.
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Seems we need an international micro-payment system. Seeing that eBay are forcing me to use Payoneer for anything (non-stamp at the moment) I sell on there I will see how Payoneer handles such payments outside of eBay. I half remember Google and Apple were looking at micro-payments at one time but sometimes these new ideas are for the US only.
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MacRumors just had a story today about micro-payments of 25 cents to $15 using Apple Pay. That would be great being able to utilize that for a payment system. But ONLY if one lives in the USA!
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/06/apple-cash-instant-transfer-mastercard/
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I agree with Carol - this is an SOR thing. All of these micro pay things sound great except that if it involves a bank, I am pretty sure my bank couldn't do it. My bank will not even transfer money between accounts via their website from 3:00 PM Friday until 9:00 AM on Monday. I agree that you don't want a business PAYPAL account here on SOR especially if you have another set up for business elsewhere. My account for SOR is a personal one, though sometimes when people skirt the now $10 to use paypal issue and send the money direct, they send it to the wrong account and in fact sometimes to an account that does not even exist. This is why Ians idea doesn't work - unless you can add all the paypal fees into the transaction. If you send an invoice for $2 they will send the money direct, and there is no way to stop that kind of thing due to the way PAYPAL works. I once had a buyer here want to use paypal for a 16 cent purchase. I am leaning more and more to rounding up to $10 and keeping the balance on account, subtracting from it every say 4 weeks or so and sending an invoice. The 5 days to pay rule really has gone out the window with some buyers. I have one buyer who keeps adding to his tab - since February, and we are not talking penny stamps here. I will probably float the $10 balance in my next set of invoices. I'd put something into the auction discussion board, but there is no way to keep things permanently there and I'm always forgetting to update that one - so my posts disappear. I'll hold off just in case there is some sort of rules violation involved with that idea
Greg
I too have had buyers on Hip spend $1.50 p&h for a 15 cent stamp and not blink an eye over it. In fact the same buyer will buy a single stamp two weeks apart for the same small price.
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"Are sellers permitted to charge more and hold the remaining as credit? This would solve most of the problems I think. Some people might prefer that as they would get their stamps right away. I have held money on account when a buyer accidentally pays an invoice twice.
"
ABSOLUTELY NOT
You guys keep making up your own deals among yourselves, which often suits both parties, and when that happens, all is good. And, then..... you make up other arrangements and it's not always happy-making.
We have rules. Abide by them and if the other guy doesn't, we can intercede. Make up your own terms indpendent of SOR rules, you're on your own.
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Reading the rules though, C2b states that terms default to exact postage or other fees can be charged IF the terms within the boom do not state it. Is this then allowing for an increase in postage and handling due to increased PAYPAL fees IF these terms are put into the listing? If true, then this solves the problem. Simply add another 25 cents to the postage amount. At least it reads that way to me. It also goes along with what I was told when I asked this of someone. I had not read the rules but just did and it seems to be permissible. I will once again have to create a nightmare for myself and change the terms.
Greg
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What is desperately needed is for sellers being able to adjust their sales conditions without the hassle and aggravation that it causes to ALL members because of the faults in the system.
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I agree Ian. I have invoices all over the place now and if I change it again, which it looks like I will be doing after next weeks invoices but before the next auctions start (thats the mistake I made the first time), it should be a little easier to clean up the mess that changing terms causes. Still, do you get the same impression I get when you read those two rules back to back?
Greg
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11:11:07am
I'm a buyer and not a seller so I have no idea what the sellers are going through. All I know is I will go along with whatever you guys agree on. I think the sellers who will have the biggest problem are the ones who sell many stamps in the 10 cent (or less) range.
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I just changed my terms 2 days ago. I was able to close out all of my open invoices at the time. It took me a week to get everything closed out. Some of the invoices were quite small and I took a small hit on the PayPal fees even before the fee increase on PayPal. I am not sure if how I set up my terms now meets the rules or not. I looked over about two dozen other sellers and saw what others had been doing. I set a smaller PayPal minimum than Greg - I set it at $5.00 for US orders but I see no way of doing that for International orders since they have no option to pay me with a US Check. I also am offering a small shipping discount if invoice is paid by check or cash. (I have been doing that for some of my check buyers all along). The terms that sellers have are all over the place as a buyer it must make for a very confusing situation. If I have to change the terms again because what I did is not following the "rules" - then I will have another mess on my hands. Steve
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Steve, I am guessing you did not have a paypal limit before, and perhaps you also upped your charge for p&h to $1.50. You are going to find that everyone knows how to bypass that "no paypal" thing. You don't need a button to pay with paypal. Even with my $5 limit, I got a payment via PAYPAL for a $2 sale the other day and almost all my international buyers buy small amounts. There are but 2 real solutions to this. First not send an invoice, yet the rules state you have to - unless you say you are not going to ahead of time. Thats exactly what I did. I could if I am interpreting the rules correctly add extra for paypal to my s&h, but I cannot mention that i what the extra is for. Look at rules C2a & C2b:
C2a. Sellers must create their payment and shipping terms. Unless listed as optional, the terms must include, at a minimum, the following information:
Payment methods accepted or excluded
Shipping methods (optional)
Shipping costs, including any ancillary shipping services offered
Countries/areas excluded from sales (optional)
Refund policy (optional)
Any terms and conditions of sale that are different from those in the rules and procedures
C2b. If an approval book description does not include shipping terms, the seller must abide by the default terms stated below:
Postage charged to the buyer must be the exact cost of shipping the purchase from the seller to the buyer
No other fees may be charged to the buyer
B says that if it is not specified in A it cannot be charged. So if you state that s&h is $1.50 in your case, you cannot put $1.75 in the shipping costs line on the invoice. I'm thinking the best thing to do is simply state the shipping cost - which everyone does and not say what it is for. Handling is handling. Ypu could have a person working for you getting paid to fill the orders. Who is to know? So I'm thinking put it back to invoicing as I did, and tack on additional s&h. Why keep beating a dead horse? My problem is that I did not look past C2a. Had I done so, I would have just upped it from the getgo, as everyone who sells elsewhere has already done to offset PAYPAL increases. I will probably change it back after I invoice on Monday afternoon.
Greg
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Greg:- I assume these are the two rules
"C2. SHIPPING TERMS
C2a. Sellers must create their payment and shipping terms. Unless listed as optional, the terms must include, at a minimum, the following information:
Payment methods accepted or excluded
Shipping methods (optional)
Shipping costs, including any ancillary shipping services offered
Countries/areas excluded from sales (optional)
Refund policy (optional)
Any terms and conditions of sale that are different from those in the rules and procedures
C2b. If an approval book description does not include shipping terms, the seller must abide by the default terms stated below:
Postage charged to the buyer must be the exact cost of shipping the purchase from the seller to the buyer
No other fees may be charged to the buyer"
I read it that if you have NOT added any shipping terms to an approval book you can only charge the Buyer actual Postage costs ie the price of the stamp!!
However if you have listed shipping terms and conditions then the seller must stick to them
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That is why I think it is now imperative for stamporama to allow Sellers to be able to change without the hassle.
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Ian, that is exactly as I read it. Laywers must have written the rules. Or accountants. Open to interpretation is how it appears to me. I had not read past C2a. Had I done so, I would have simply added another 25 cents to my p&h and been done with it.
Greg
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So when I added a comment that I will give a small discount on the shipping cost for payments by check or cash - that violated the rules ? I saw several sellers who were doing that on their existing terms. Steve
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Greg, Aye that's the solution.
One of the charges I have to pay paypal is for currency conversion.
It is great when its $1.25 to £1 but horrific when its $1.40 to the £1, a 12% difference.
It still won't "Break the Bank at Monte Carlo"
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Steve, If you state what % the discount is then you are clearly stating your terms and they are not open to question.
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Well I clearly stated my US Shipping Rate is $1.50 (first ounce) but I will give a 50 cent discount for Check or Cash. I only have a couple of buyers who pay that way and I always gave them a break (behind the scenes anyway !) Steve
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04:40:44pm
I know it is illegal to send cash in the mail, but... If I was willing to take the risk it would be very tempting to get a bunch of small US bills at the bank and use them to pay small amounts to US sellers. This would avoid those annoying PayPal fees for small purchases. I know it would slow things down a bit since PayPal is an automatic payment. I would be willing to take the risk of the odd "lost in the mail" and would wrap the $$$ in paper. Does anyone see this as an option for the small invoice amounts?
A story to go with this: When I was teaching several years ago a stats teacher I knew conducted an experiment. He put money in envelopes and addressed them to himself, added a stamp and dropped them on the ground near post boxes. The money was clearly visible and he wanted to see how many were sent to him because an honest person put the envelope in the box. I don't remember the results of the the experiment but he did get a visit from a police officer. Alex did not realize it was illegal to get, or receive, money in the mail!!
EDIT: I might have got that story a bit wrong. I just remembered that Alex photocopied the bills. I think that was the part that was illegal - maybe mailing money is ok!
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Right from the internet "You can send any amount of cash through the U.S. Postal Service, but USPS will insure currency only up to $50,000 . People tuck cash into letters and greetings cards and send it through the mail every day. These activities are perfectly legal, and there's no limit on the amount of cash you can send through the USPS mailing system." Personally, I have never done so !! Steve
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06:37:31pm
For small amounts would sellers prefer to get cash through the mail, which takes extra time, or would you prefer PayPal (with fees) which is instant? Opinions?
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Jings!....Crivvens!.....Help Ma Boab!
I must take a note in my diary. I've just gone weak at the knees. Is that a tinglin' doon ma left airm? Is that a tichtning feelin' across ma chest? Is that palpatations or is it a full blown cardiac arrest?
Quick call an ambulance. Tell dochter no 1 to get aff the phone. Whit do you mean the operator has you on hold? Stop humming along to the musak, I am bliddy dein here (faints)
(Comes round in ambulance) Where am I? Are you a paramedic? What is the question? What triggered the heart attack?
A stamporama buyer offered to send cash through the post! Aye they were going to have to pay the postage to ship the cash to me!
The heart, in the words of Scotty frae Star Trek "She just couldna tak it, Captain."
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Harvey, In all honesty I would not like to accept cash through the mail. (Even if I lived in the USA or Canada)
To me the solution is accept the sellers postage cost or "buy more stamps" from the seller.
Most sellers allow a bit of leeway because of this but at least square up at the month end or if you bought on the 25th of the month square up at the end of the next month whether it is $1 or $50.
I have bought items where the postage has outweighed the cost of the stamp(s), a couple of bucks won't break the bank.
At any one time I can have $100 to $300 of items waiting to be paid for. I could use that money to buy more stamps for my collection and to sell on here allowing folks to purchase for their collections. (Just think how many good Polish stamps I could buy with that money)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEqGgjhTAO0
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11:53:26am
I always pay when I am invoiced whether it's less than a dollar or much more. If a seller suggests I can wait until I find more stamps sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I'm not particularly keen on sending cash, I just mentioned it as an option. I really prefer PayPal since it is so easy, if I get charged a bit more for fees then so be it! It does seem a little foolish to pay a few dollars in fees for a few cents worth of stamps, but it's the price of doing business.
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"It does seem a little foolish to pay a few dollars in fees for a few cents worth of stamps, but it's the price of doing business. "
As a Seller I know what the costs are and at times I am prepared to take the good with the bad but when the bad outweighs the good then something has to change. Especially when the seller changes their conditions it can be an absolute nightmare because the system cannot cope with that particular change.
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"C2b states that terms default to exact postage or other fees can be charged IF the terms within the boom do not state it. Is this then allowing for an increase in postage and handling due to increased PAYPAL fees IF these terms are put into the listing?"
Greg, Yes, you can charge whatever you want as long as you include those charges in the description so that people know what to expect. There shouldn't be surprises for the buyer.
Harvey, there's no law against sending cash via mail.
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02:45:42am
Auctions - Approvals
"PayPal will charge sellers 3.49% plus 49 cents to process transactions made through its proprietary products, including its button on merchant websites and its digital wallet, according to material the company shared with Reuters."
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Is this a change? I have not received a notification from PayPal about this. But then again, as an "international" user I have the dubious honour of paying higher fees anyway so maybe nothing changes for me...
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I saw an article on this yesterday.. This is the important part that I saw: Steve
PayPal said Friday it is raising fees for some of its newer products.... The changes will affect how much PayPal merchants pay per transaction, and take effect August 2nd...... The new, higher rates will apply to the company’s newer products, like PayPal Checkout, and Pay with Venmo......For PayPal digital payments with its PayPal Checkout, Pay with Venmo, PayPal Credit, Pay in 4, PayPal Pay with Rewards, and Checkout with crypto, the new rate for online transactions will be 3.49 percent plus $0.491 per transaction......For US merchants who have custom, non-standard pricing, rates will remain unchanged ...
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10:35:03am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
The article I saw left out a few of those details...
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07:32:34pm
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
It seems that my kids, and our younger friends, have all been using e-transfers (ending money via email between banks/credit unions) for years. There seems to be no fees attached; and despite our early reluctance, we have used this method successfully a dozen times in the past 6 months.
Is that an alternative to PayPal among trusted SOR members?
One thing I don't know is if it is possible between Canadian & US institutions.
Thoughts?
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Dave, it is usable here, I have personally done this buying stamps. It is a matter knowing an email address and arranging a password for the recipient in order for them to collect.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I have used Zelle to send and receive payments between family and friends. There is no recourse, so it really has to be among trusted parties.
I don't think there are any fees -- at least I and my friends and family have not incurred any with our respective financial institutions. I don't know if it's available outside of the US.
It was very easy to set up.
For what it's worth, I am with a very large bank, and one of my family members is with a tiny credit union, and both institutions use it.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I recently discovered that there is an option for lowering PayPal fees for smaller transactions. It is called micropayments.
From the PayPal section on fees:
"Subject to application and pre-approval by PayPal, you may upgrade an existing account to receive the Micropayment rate. Micropayment rates can be ideal as an alternative to standard commercial transaction rates for businesses that process payments under 10.00 USD. If you upgrade to the Micropayment rate, this rate will apply to all commercial transaction payments received into your applicable PayPal account. Please contact us to apply for the Micropayment rate."
The micropayment rate (U.S.) is $.05 plus 5% of the amount. Here is a comparison of the standard rate and the micropayment rate for different transaction amounts:
trans_micro__standard
$5_____0.30____0.45
$10____0.55____0.59
$15____0.80____0.74
$20____1.05____0.88
$12____0.65____0.65
For transactions of less than $12 the micropayment option is better.
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Well Carol (WebPaper) was right and I was wrong afterall. The PayPal increase went into effect today. I had a few invoices paid and the new rate of 49 cents plus 3.49% was applied. It is funny I had one transaction for some reason that still had the old rate applied - not sure how that happened. I have to start a minimum amount now for any PayPal transaction. Example - I had a small order which with shipping only totaled $1.95. With the postage and paypal fee I actually lost 11 cents on this transaction. Even on larger amounts now - I am going to wind up loosing money on many of my sales. I will just have to raise my shipping rates. Between this and the postage increase coming this month - this is getting to be a real problem. These were US invoices - I assume the rate for international payments must have gone up as well. Are we permitted to give a shipping discount if someone pays by check or cash ? I have seensome sellers do that but I did not know we could overcharge someone only because they paid with PayPal ? Steve
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
If most of your transactions are small, you could consider the PayPal micropayment plan. In the U.S. it's $.09 fixed plus 4.99%.
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07:53:36pm
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Micropayments sound good but I have spent hours trying to set it up to no avail…
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I tried to investigate that - but I could not figure out how to set that up. I think you need a business account in PayPal not a personal account. I am not running a business ! Steve
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Auctions
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
It looks like Paypal does not need us little guys either. I may have to ask for a check instead of paypal. i want to sell stamps i do not need at a fair price..but it takes time and supplies to do it. I suppose it will sort out as most things do.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Was there a wholesale price increase of bits to cause this increase? (Ha)
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Aug 2021
07:47:58am
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Please, I hope cheques don't become the rule - it's hard on foreign buyers. In Canada you can't even send foreign money orders any more and bank drafts are pricey. Maybe we'll all have to learn how to wire money. For me PayPal is so easy, so if the fees are going up you'll just have to charge more. Please don't drop PayPal!!
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10:29:13am
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
"Please don't drop PayPal!!"
It was only a matter of time before the likes of Paypal increased their charges and they will continue to increase.
Once companies get the lions share of the market, prices go up and up and up.
Stamps are like all commodities the costs will continue to rise. Remember when there "penny" mixtures? Where are they now? Gone, finito, disappeared!
I used to be able to buy a quality mixed box at auction for £20 I now have to pay £100+.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJCdz6Rn3ms
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Auctions
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
David;
I've been accepting e-transfers from Stamporama Canadian members with absolutely no problem.
It's hassle free, instant payment with no fees to either sender or receiver.
Bear in mind that while it's possible to send money from a Canadian bank to the US via Interac's partnership with Mastercard and Western Union, the service is only available to Canadian bank account holders, and therefore it's not possible to send an Interac e-Transfer from the US to Canada.
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I have no idea what an e-transfer is but I suppose it is similar to a bank transfer within the euro zone over here. I can send and receive money from anyone with a Euro currency bank account. Within the Netherlands the money is almost instantaneously on my account, for a transfer from a foreign account it takes one or two days. No additional charges (yet). PayPal is only for when I deal with people from overseas.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Steve I changed my invoicing terms last week which of course messed up trying to combine things. I will no longer send an invoice for under $10. I sent some small ones under a two dollars and they had no PayPal link. Does't matter. I asked for a check in lieu of PayPal but everyone knows that even with no link on the invoice, they send money direct to your email address. Therefore no more small invoices. I seem to recall rants about sellers charging PayPal fees on there invoices so I do not think that is an option. On hip I simply upped my shipping.
Greg
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
05 Aug 2021
07:21:13pm
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I've bought a lot of stamps from Greg over the last couple years and respect his $10 rule. I think I always reach at least that much with him anyway. But there are several buyers that usually only issue cheap appraisal books - I would never reach a comparable amount with them since most items they offer are $0.10 or less. There's got to be another way for people like this. Somehow invoicing once a year doesn't sound very practical. Just sorta thinking out loud!
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Are sellers permitted to charge more and hold the remaining as credit? This would solve most of the problems I think. Some people might prefer that as they would get their stamps right away. I have held money on account when a buyer accidentally pays an invoice twice.
Greg
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08:36:11pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
"There's got to be another way for people like this. Somehow invoicing once a year doesn't sound very practical."
The situation will only get worse over time as paypal fees increase and postage costs increase.
We may have to alter our rules so that every buyer and every seller know exactly where they stand and what is expected of them.
Currently it is a complete mish mash due to General Rule A5:-
"Sellers and buyers may mutually agree to alter the terms and conditions of any purchase. However, unless mutually agreed upon in writing (private messages are acceptable) by both parties, the changes are not valid, and no assumption may be made by either party that the other agreed to the changes"
In the real world Sellers have little or no option but to secede to any buyers demands for dragging out payment of purchases. If the Seller refuses then they lose future sales. Why should a Seller have to wait months for payment because the Buyer decides to buy one stamp a week from a seller and does not want to pay for 3 to 6 months because it is uneconomical to them "due to the postage costs".
I have had buyers purchase the one stamp that has been listed 3 times in the Approvals over a couple of months, yet never paid for any stamps over that period. Why did they not buy that stamp when it first appeared?
What I would like to see is that whenever a purchase is made then an invoice is sent to the Buyer (This lets the Buyer know what they have purchased and how much they are paying for shipping). The Buyer can then decide whether they wish to pay or hang on to see if the Seller lists anything else they may desire. At the end of each month the Seller then sends an Invoice to every Buyer with an outstanding invoice. (This reminds the Buyer that they have an oustanding invoice and that the Seller is still alive!). By the second end of the month the Buyer must pay the outstanding invoice no matter what the amount is!
I know that will not please some but why should a Buyer expect to have a stamp "put aside"
when another member may have wanted that item and would pay the seller quicker than several months? Is that being selfish, inconsiderate, unrespectful to other members?
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09:17:47pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
This issue seems to be pretty much limited to StampoRama.
Hardly a week goes by on my store where I don't get at least one, sometimes several, orders for individual stamps ranging from 8 cents on up (mostly under 50 cents). 8 cents for the stamp and $1.50 for S/H.
Since 2007 I have only ever had one person request a reduced S/H charge. They wanted to purchase a stamp for well under a dollar and said they would not pay over 55 cents S/H because that was all it would cost me.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Seems we need an international micro-payment system. Seeing that eBay are forcing me to use Payoneer for anything (non-stamp at the moment) I sell on there I will see how Payoneer handles such payments outside of eBay. I half remember Google and Apple were looking at micro-payments at one time but sometimes these new ideas are for the US only.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
MacRumors just had a story today about micro-payments of 25 cents to $15 using Apple Pay. That would be great being able to utilize that for a payment system. But ONLY if one lives in the USA!
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/06/apple-cash-instant-transfer-mastercard/
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I agree with Carol - this is an SOR thing. All of these micro pay things sound great except that if it involves a bank, I am pretty sure my bank couldn't do it. My bank will not even transfer money between accounts via their website from 3:00 PM Friday until 9:00 AM on Monday. I agree that you don't want a business PAYPAL account here on SOR especially if you have another set up for business elsewhere. My account for SOR is a personal one, though sometimes when people skirt the now $10 to use paypal issue and send the money direct, they send it to the wrong account and in fact sometimes to an account that does not even exist. This is why Ians idea doesn't work - unless you can add all the paypal fees into the transaction. If you send an invoice for $2 they will send the money direct, and there is no way to stop that kind of thing due to the way PAYPAL works. I once had a buyer here want to use paypal for a 16 cent purchase. I am leaning more and more to rounding up to $10 and keeping the balance on account, subtracting from it every say 4 weeks or so and sending an invoice. The 5 days to pay rule really has gone out the window with some buyers. I have one buyer who keeps adding to his tab - since February, and we are not talking penny stamps here. I will probably float the $10 balance in my next set of invoices. I'd put something into the auction discussion board, but there is no way to keep things permanently there and I'm always forgetting to update that one - so my posts disappear. I'll hold off just in case there is some sort of rules violation involved with that idea
Greg
I too have had buyers on Hip spend $1.50 p&h for a 15 cent stamp and not blink an eye over it. In fact the same buyer will buy a single stamp two weeks apart for the same small price.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
"Are sellers permitted to charge more and hold the remaining as credit? This would solve most of the problems I think. Some people might prefer that as they would get their stamps right away. I have held money on account when a buyer accidentally pays an invoice twice.
"
ABSOLUTELY NOT
You guys keep making up your own deals among yourselves, which often suits both parties, and when that happens, all is good. And, then..... you make up other arrangements and it's not always happy-making.
We have rules. Abide by them and if the other guy doesn't, we can intercede. Make up your own terms indpendent of SOR rules, you're on your own.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Reading the rules though, C2b states that terms default to exact postage or other fees can be charged IF the terms within the boom do not state it. Is this then allowing for an increase in postage and handling due to increased PAYPAL fees IF these terms are put into the listing? If true, then this solves the problem. Simply add another 25 cents to the postage amount. At least it reads that way to me. It also goes along with what I was told when I asked this of someone. I had not read the rules but just did and it seems to be permissible. I will once again have to create a nightmare for myself and change the terms.
Greg
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10:08:47am
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
What is desperately needed is for sellers being able to adjust their sales conditions without the hassle and aggravation that it causes to ALL members because of the faults in the system.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I agree Ian. I have invoices all over the place now and if I change it again, which it looks like I will be doing after next weeks invoices but before the next auctions start (thats the mistake I made the first time), it should be a little easier to clean up the mess that changing terms causes. Still, do you get the same impression I get when you read those two rules back to back?
Greg
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Aug 2021
11:11:07am
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I'm a buyer and not a seller so I have no idea what the sellers are going through. All I know is I will go along with whatever you guys agree on. I think the sellers who will have the biggest problem are the ones who sell many stamps in the 10 cent (or less) range.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I just changed my terms 2 days ago. I was able to close out all of my open invoices at the time. It took me a week to get everything closed out. Some of the invoices were quite small and I took a small hit on the PayPal fees even before the fee increase on PayPal. I am not sure if how I set up my terms now meets the rules or not. I looked over about two dozen other sellers and saw what others had been doing. I set a smaller PayPal minimum than Greg - I set it at $5.00 for US orders but I see no way of doing that for International orders since they have no option to pay me with a US Check. I also am offering a small shipping discount if invoice is paid by check or cash. (I have been doing that for some of my check buyers all along). The terms that sellers have are all over the place as a buyer it must make for a very confusing situation. If I have to change the terms again because what I did is not following the "rules" - then I will have another mess on my hands. Steve
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Steve, I am guessing you did not have a paypal limit before, and perhaps you also upped your charge for p&h to $1.50. You are going to find that everyone knows how to bypass that "no paypal" thing. You don't need a button to pay with paypal. Even with my $5 limit, I got a payment via PAYPAL for a $2 sale the other day and almost all my international buyers buy small amounts. There are but 2 real solutions to this. First not send an invoice, yet the rules state you have to - unless you say you are not going to ahead of time. Thats exactly what I did. I could if I am interpreting the rules correctly add extra for paypal to my s&h, but I cannot mention that i what the extra is for. Look at rules C2a & C2b:
C2a. Sellers must create their payment and shipping terms. Unless listed as optional, the terms must include, at a minimum, the following information:
Payment methods accepted or excluded
Shipping methods (optional)
Shipping costs, including any ancillary shipping services offered
Countries/areas excluded from sales (optional)
Refund policy (optional)
Any terms and conditions of sale that are different from those in the rules and procedures
C2b. If an approval book description does not include shipping terms, the seller must abide by the default terms stated below:
Postage charged to the buyer must be the exact cost of shipping the purchase from the seller to the buyer
No other fees may be charged to the buyer
B says that if it is not specified in A it cannot be charged. So if you state that s&h is $1.50 in your case, you cannot put $1.75 in the shipping costs line on the invoice. I'm thinking the best thing to do is simply state the shipping cost - which everyone does and not say what it is for. Handling is handling. Ypu could have a person working for you getting paid to fill the orders. Who is to know? So I'm thinking put it back to invoicing as I did, and tack on additional s&h. Why keep beating a dead horse? My problem is that I did not look past C2a. Had I done so, I would have just upped it from the getgo, as everyone who sells elsewhere has already done to offset PAYPAL increases. I will probably change it back after I invoice on Monday afternoon.
Greg
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02:50:34pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Greg:- I assume these are the two rules
"C2. SHIPPING TERMS
C2a. Sellers must create their payment and shipping terms. Unless listed as optional, the terms must include, at a minimum, the following information:
Payment methods accepted or excluded
Shipping methods (optional)
Shipping costs, including any ancillary shipping services offered
Countries/areas excluded from sales (optional)
Refund policy (optional)
Any terms and conditions of sale that are different from those in the rules and procedures
C2b. If an approval book description does not include shipping terms, the seller must abide by the default terms stated below:
Postage charged to the buyer must be the exact cost of shipping the purchase from the seller to the buyer
No other fees may be charged to the buyer"
I read it that if you have NOT added any shipping terms to an approval book you can only charge the Buyer actual Postage costs ie the price of the stamp!!
However if you have listed shipping terms and conditions then the seller must stick to them
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02:52:16pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
That is why I think it is now imperative for stamporama to allow Sellers to be able to change without the hassle.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Ian, that is exactly as I read it. Laywers must have written the rules. Or accountants. Open to interpretation is how it appears to me. I had not read past C2a. Had I done so, I would have simply added another 25 cents to my p&h and been done with it.
Greg
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
So when I added a comment that I will give a small discount on the shipping cost for payments by check or cash - that violated the rules ? I saw several sellers who were doing that on their existing terms. Steve
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03:16:59pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Greg, Aye that's the solution.
One of the charges I have to pay paypal is for currency conversion.
It is great when its $1.25 to £1 but horrific when its $1.40 to the £1, a 12% difference.
It still won't "Break the Bank at Monte Carlo"
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03:26:21pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Steve, If you state what % the discount is then you are clearly stating your terms and they are not open to question.
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Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Well I clearly stated my US Shipping Rate is $1.50 (first ounce) but I will give a 50 cent discount for Check or Cash. I only have a couple of buyers who pay that way and I always gave them a break (behind the scenes anyway !) Steve
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Aug 2021
04:40:44pm
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I know it is illegal to send cash in the mail, but... If I was willing to take the risk it would be very tempting to get a bunch of small US bills at the bank and use them to pay small amounts to US sellers. This would avoid those annoying PayPal fees for small purchases. I know it would slow things down a bit since PayPal is an automatic payment. I would be willing to take the risk of the odd "lost in the mail" and would wrap the $$$ in paper. Does anyone see this as an option for the small invoice amounts?
A story to go with this: When I was teaching several years ago a stats teacher I knew conducted an experiment. He put money in envelopes and addressed them to himself, added a stamp and dropped them on the ground near post boxes. The money was clearly visible and he wanted to see how many were sent to him because an honest person put the envelope in the box. I don't remember the results of the the experiment but he did get a visit from a police officer. Alex did not realize it was illegal to get, or receive, money in the mail!!
EDIT: I might have got that story a bit wrong. I just remembered that Alex photocopied the bills. I think that was the part that was illegal - maybe mailing money is ok!
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Right from the internet "You can send any amount of cash through the U.S. Postal Service, but USPS will insure currency only up to $50,000 . People tuck cash into letters and greetings cards and send it through the mail every day. These activities are perfectly legal, and there's no limit on the amount of cash you can send through the USPS mailing system." Personally, I have never done so !! Steve
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Aug 2021
06:37:31pm
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
For small amounts would sellers prefer to get cash through the mail, which takes extra time, or would you prefer PayPal (with fees) which is instant? Opinions?
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07:56:35pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Jings!....Crivvens!.....Help Ma Boab!
I must take a note in my diary. I've just gone weak at the knees. Is that a tinglin' doon ma left airm? Is that a tichtning feelin' across ma chest? Is that palpatations or is it a full blown cardiac arrest?
Quick call an ambulance. Tell dochter no 1 to get aff the phone. Whit do you mean the operator has you on hold? Stop humming along to the musak, I am bliddy dein here (faints)
(Comes round in ambulance) Where am I? Are you a paramedic? What is the question? What triggered the heart attack?
A stamporama buyer offered to send cash through the post! Aye they were going to have to pay the postage to ship the cash to me!
The heart, in the words of Scotty frae Star Trek "She just couldna tak it, Captain."
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11:00:54am
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
Harvey, In all honesty I would not like to accept cash through the mail. (Even if I lived in the USA or Canada)
To me the solution is accept the sellers postage cost or "buy more stamps" from the seller.
Most sellers allow a bit of leeway because of this but at least square up at the month end or if you bought on the 25th of the month square up at the end of the next month whether it is $1 or $50.
I have bought items where the postage has outweighed the cost of the stamp(s), a couple of bucks won't break the bank.
At any one time I can have $100 to $300 of items waiting to be paid for. I could use that money to buy more stamps for my collection and to sell on here allowing folks to purchase for their collections. (Just think how many good Polish stamps I could buy with that money)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEqGgjhTAO0
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Aug 2021
11:53:26am
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
I always pay when I am invoiced whether it's less than a dollar or much more. If a seller suggests I can wait until I find more stamps sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I'm not particularly keen on sending cash, I just mentioned it as an option. I really prefer PayPal since it is so easy, if I get charged a bit more for fees then so be it! It does seem a little foolish to pay a few dollars in fees for a few cents worth of stamps, but it's the price of doing business.
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12:35:49pm
Approvals
re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
"It does seem a little foolish to pay a few dollars in fees for a few cents worth of stamps, but it's the price of doing business. "
As a Seller I know what the costs are and at times I am prepared to take the good with the bad but when the bad outweighs the good then something has to change. Especially when the seller changes their conditions it can be an absolute nightmare because the system cannot cope with that particular change.
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re: Paypal fees to 49 cents (Reuters)
"C2b states that terms default to exact postage or other fees can be charged IF the terms within the boom do not state it. Is this then allowing for an increase in postage and handling due to increased PAYPAL fees IF these terms are put into the listing?"
Greg, Yes, you can charge whatever you want as long as you include those charges in the description so that people know what to expect. There shouldn't be surprises for the buyer.
Harvey, there's no law against sending cash via mail.
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