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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Auction Disc. : How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

 

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Barbour2p

17 Jan 2010
12:48:23pm
When going to the relist page it says I have to relist for 80% or less of original listing price..why is this?
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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

17 Jan 2010
01:27:15pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

I believe it was put in place so that people would not keep relisting items over and over again that are not selling and bogging down the auction. The thought being if you didn't sell it at 100%, perhaps it would sell at 80%. You can relist it at 100% but you would have to do it manually.

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Bobstamp
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17 Jan 2010
01:31:06pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

My very limited experience with auction selling is that if something doesn't sell the first time around, or the second, it might sell the third time around at the price of the original listing. Since the listing price can be changed manually, I don't see much of a problem. Perhaps an automated drop of 10% would be more acceptable?

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

17 Jan 2010
04:14:13pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Barbour, you don't need to use the relist function; it automatically relists everything for you exactly as you had it, EXCEPT that you need put in a new closing time and you must discount it at least 20% from its previous opening bid. As Bob P noted, this is to stop relisting lots at prices that don't generate bids; as Bob I notes, you can relist manually at any price. Personally, I like the 20% discount as a good trade all around.

David

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Bobstamp
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18 Jan 2010
10:16:57am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Some inexperienced buyers might spend 100% of Scott on common stamps, but that would certainly be a waste of money. Most collectors in my experience grumble if dealers ask even 50% of Scott. Common stamps can often be purchased in box lots for as little as 5% of Scott. A seller who lists this material at full Scott value would be seen as gouging, in my opinion.

Bob

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Dani20
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18 Jan 2010
10:49:11am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Dear Guys,
You may not be talking about the same issue. Fred is approaching this from a "business" perspective in a retail market environment. Bob is addressing the market from 2 perspectives, a very savvy buyer and a member of the SOR family.

Fred, if you take a look at the listings, there are many at ridiculously low staring bids. This is because we're more of a family than just a seller of items. To encourage newbies to become involved, we actually have a penny category.
Both you & Bob make valid points, but in a family the rules change for the family members.

Tim, of course, is also quite correct, but his focus is on accomplishing the task at hand- to get stuff listed into the auction with ease and efficiency.

So in brief, welcome to the family, and we look forward to your input on how to make things even better. Your sharp eye is a valuable asset.

All good thoughts,
Dan

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

18 Jan 2010
01:05:09pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Fred, 1/3 catalogue is a good starting price for SOR. Things in demand will generate more bids; others won't. I generally start quality material at between 20% and 25%.

The automated relist function is an OPTION that allows you to relist at the stroke of a key; you can always relist manaually until the cows come home. Hope this helps.

David

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Harley

18 Jan 2010
02:34:42pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Seeing as I'm a buyer,not a seller,, I have a slightly different point of view on this topic.

Most listings in our auction are in the reasonable price range for the item,and it's condition.

However,there are a few sellers who "might" be misreading the catalogue values when calculateing the values,,before figureing the discounted offering price.

One type in particular is the mint hinged. A hinged version of mint is a damaged stamp.It does not command a catalogue value of MNH, at half price. My personal opinion is it should be the difference between unused and used,and half of that as high bid start.

If you scroll down the auction offerings,you will notice those at inflated values recieve little if no bids.

And it's not just here at SOR,,I notice the same thing in auction catalogs and live auctions. I dont bid in another Club auction for simialr reseans,,every single item atarts out at full catalog. They sell about 2% of the total offerings(an average of 2600 offerings per auction).Most sold are to colectors who need that item,and cost is no opbject.

To sellers,most recent to join the SOR family,, keep the price reasonable.
I dont know how you feel,,but If I were to becme a seller,I would want to move the merchandise. I may be wrong,but a bag full of quarters is worth more than a fist full of 50 cent pieces.
The idea is to sell the stamps.Not to try for a retirement account on each sale.

I have no idea how many purchases I've made,just here on SOR, but it's many,many stamps.Not all were great bargains,but very,very few were over priced.

There currently are about 25 or so items listed that I have slight interest in,,,but have passed because of unreasonable prices.There are 2 or 3 that I wont bid because of country and/or postage costs.Already been there,done that,no thanks.

Relisting at a lower starting price may be a better solution for those not getting bids on some really nice stuff. I whole heartedly think the problem IS the price.IMHO.

TOM

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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

18 Jan 2010
04:49:46pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

I don't think a hinged mint stamp is considered damaged. Scott catalogues put at the beginning of each country that prices are for hinged stamps up until a certain date or issue with a premium for never hinged. Sellers should base their percentage based on that. Obviously if stamps are hinged past that date/issue then there should be a discount from catalogue value.

Bob

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Harley

18 Jan 2010
09:36:30pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob(parkinlot),
the item I refer to was lited as 50% off scott,but the item was hinged,which as you said is the 1st listing.And that was the price asked--(hinged.full cat. value), which btw,was 50% of the mnh value.
I believe some are figureing top values for an item,and reducing that value,instead of a reduction of the true value as listed,,for its condition.
example--
item-mint hinged sct#=====50% of scott
scotts listing--
5.00 mh sct listed
10.00 mnh sct listed
price asked,50%of scott-- 5.00
That is not half off the item listed. half would be 2.50 for mint hinged.They are asking 100% of scott.
And you wonder why some of us,,older collectors,, are not bidding on certain items.It's not that we dont want the item,it's because of the starting bid,especialy when misrepresented.
TOM

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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

19 Jan 2010
10:29:32am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

I don't disagree with you there. Hinging does lower the value of the stamp but my concern was saying that a hinged stamp is a damaged stamp. For older stamps it is the norm. Scott's Volume 1 for US states that Catalogue Values are for never hinged starting with Scott 772. That means every Unused stamp before that the value listed is for hinged with a premium for NH. 772 was issued in 1935 so we have about 90 years of stamps where the normal condition is hinged.

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

19 Jan 2010
08:50:55pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom has a point in discussing how we value stamps. Scott's CV is for a certain grade. for contemporary stamps, VF is the norm and to be expected. For earlier stamps, VF is NOT the norm and anytime we quote CV, we quote Scott's CV for VF. It's understood, however, or at least I understand, that all sorts of dicounting takes place, especially to compensate for centering less than VF, but for other things as well.

But Scott doesn't provide CV for grades other than VF, and we're left to our own devices. The starting point in discussing CV is Scott's VF and after that, it's what the market will bear. I often go back to Scott 73, a stamp that in VF is probably valued correctly, but that in anything other than VF is so plentiful as to bear no relation to that value whatsoever. We've seen that stamp grace these pages before, courtesy of Perry and maybe others. My copies are all at or below F-VF and all acquired for pennies on the dollar, when that dollar is measured against a VF CV.

David

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Harley

19 Jan 2010
11:09:41pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob,
please dont say that to a mint only collector.
Any alteration to a mint stamp is considered "damage" to them.
And I agree to a certain point.
No matter if it's an 1880 stamp or a 2010 stamp,hinged is hinged, not 100 % mint.
And an intentional damage to the "mint" stamp.That hinge didnt get on there by itself.

I dont consider a hinged stamp as anything else other than a hinged stamp,regardless if it's mint or used. But a used can be soaked and hinge marks disapear,,, you cant change the fact with mint stamps.Once soaked the gum is gone and it becomes another animal--unused/no gum. Which,btw,scott dose not list.

Be warned,do not tell a mint only collector that hinged is OK,not damaged.

TOM

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Bobstamp
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19 Jan 2010
11:37:08pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Oh what an illogical species we are!

The collectors of mint stamps die a thousand deaths if they see a hinge mark, much less a hinge remnant. They want their old stamps to look like they were made yesterday.

The collectors of antique furniture die a thousand deaths if someone refinishes an old chair or desk or table, thereby removing the "patina" (a.k.a. dirty layer of gunk). They want their old furniture to look like it's been through a war!

And then, of course, we are told that it's a good idea to remove the gum from certain old stamps because the gum, if and when it cracks, can damage the paper. And we're told to remove the gum from certain other stamps because sulphuric acid in the gum will soon damage the paper, if it hasn't already. How does a gum purist deal with those situations?

Bob

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Rgnpcs
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20 Jan 2010
12:12:30am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

I would venture to say that a good many of those pre-1900 MNH stamps have been regummed. Thousands were regummed by the Drysdale Co in Miami Beach, FL during the early 1990's. One of the big advertisers in Linn's was a user of this company; he was also involved in the bid-rigging scandal, and a first class crook. I have not seen any of his ads now for a couple of years. Maybe he dropped dead!
Richaard

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Bobstamp
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20 Jan 2010
01:38:51am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Good point, Richaard. Re-gummed stamps certainly do exist. Beverly Fox (co-owner with Andrew Blanchard of Weeda Stamps) once showed me a re-gummed classic Canadian stamp. Under magnification, you could clearly see that gum had migrated around the perforation teeth to the front of the stamp and had coated the paper fibres at the torn edges of the teeth. That, apparently, was a very sloppy example of re-gumming; I understand that a "properly" re-gummed stamp can fool even the experts.

Bob

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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

20 Jan 2010
08:37:32am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

Once again, I don't disagree that any collector would prefer never hinged to hinged. For older stamps you are going to pay a major premium to buy a never hinged stamp and the price listed in Scott is for hinged until 772. Perhaps we are aguing semantics here but I have never heard the term "Damaged" to refer to a hinged stamp. That term is usually reserved for tears, creases, pulled perfs etc. Maybe a NH collector considers the stamps damaged but the hobby doesn't. Many of the Inverted Jenny stamps are hinged. Every one of those reside in someone's collection. Are used stamps damaged? The most valuable US Stamp 85A Z Grill is used. The British Guiana Penny Magenta (Scott 13) is used and damaged.

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
08:50:24am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bobstamp Bob,
Those who were fooled and purchased those "regummed" as mint did not loose out entirely.
There are collectors for everything philatelic.Some monies can be recovered from a sale of those regummed to collectors of "Fakes and Forgeries".
I've seen on occasion where fake stamps sold for more than the value of the genuine item. And not in days of yor,but most recent on the Ebay auction site.
go figure.

You did not include in your list of regummed,,the official versions of the National Parks Issues that came with no gum,but could be sent in to USPOD for gumming (full sheets). Of course that's gumming without the re. And official,not fake.

Cant recall how often,but a lot of times in the Scott listings is a notation "forgeries exit". So read the book,dont just look at the pretty pictures.

TOM

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
09:36:06am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Back to the original thread--relisting.

I do hope all this negative talk does not push our members to "give away" their wares.
It's meant to educate and help the sellers in a business way to create a freindly seller/buyer atmosphere.
The majority of our members are "collectors" of philatelic materials and it is only a "hobby".
They/we are not investing in the future,not building a retirement fund consisting of rare and unusual antiques, and as far as I know,none are multimillionares wanting to through away a few grand on a whimsical spending spree paying out more than would ever be recovered from dispensing later on.

I believe the basis of this club was tradeing duplicates to inhance their collections with needed stamps and getting rid of excess.
The auction ,added later, was an idea to help support and pay for your hobby.(again,ridding excess).
As with any good thing,there begins a greed amongst a few well intensioned members,and small though it be, it escalates over time.But all good things come to an end.(sic).
Some of us are demanding in our need for explicate degrees of discriptions in our auction, and although it may seem like we may be yelling fraud,misquote,wrong number,wrong value,etc.,,we are really asking for more indepth info,and/or reasoning behind ones valuation given.Why are you asking so much,why do you think,in your opinion,it's worth what you ask????????
On several occassions I've emailed a seller with either a suggested correction of info,or questions as above,and very few respond .A few thanked, and a few said--you dont HAVE TO bid.
So I now post here instead of private.

TOM

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Bobstamp
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20 Jan 2010
10:02:53am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

There aren't many things I like about capitalism, but the freedom to vote with my money is one of them. If stamp sellers here at Stamporama or anywhere don't sell as many stamps as they think they should, they need to look at their price structure as well as their customer service. Just as I don't buy from sellers who don't provide large, clear images, I don't buy from sellers who overprice their lots or refuse to communicate effectively.

Bear in mind, though, that items that appear to be overpriced may in fact be very hard to come by, regardless of catalogue value. Perfect centering, great cancellations, wonderful color, great usage on cover have often caused me to spend far more than catalogue value. I just can't resist beautiful stamps or covers that say to me, "Bob, don't you want to... collect me?"


Bob

(Message edited by Bobstamp on January 20, 2010)

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
10:18:20am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob,
I think we are drifting to two separate pages here.
My interuption into this thread was in conjuction with a fairly common stamp listed incorrectly(value wise).And not the very rare and high end stamps.If you want to go there,I now give my opinion as to their values.
A C3a inverted Jenny,ripped in half and scotch taped back together is worth more than a perfect condition mnh C3.

Scott has a chart for gum condition in the catalog,but no gradeing chart.The gradeing chart is in every edition of their magazine-the Scott Stamp Monthly.

So useing just the catalog is a guessing game as to true valueation of a given item.We dont always get it right,but that's the other guys opinion.

the majority of items in our auction are common stuff,seldon or never,have I seen an inverted Jenny offered(at any price).For the membership to be more presice,accurate,and give a positive ID on a stamp offered is asking them to be experts in every field of philately.Experts have more important things to do besides selling nickle and dime stamps in an online auction.IMHO.

so members,be nice,take into account that sellers are people like you and me. Stamp collectors in all the true meanings of the phrase,philatelist -"Stamp collecting,hobby of Kings"
Sellers,,relist those items.I would however suggest a waiting period instead of instant relisting.A week,or month???? Put up some new stuff in between relisting.And rotate those in the relisting if they too dont sell.
TOM

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

20 Jan 2010
11:21:19am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

This actually has been a good conversation.

Tom is right that SOR was started as a trading and round robin group; and long before we had ANY auction, we had a newsletter. Eventually we had a twice-annual mailed auction, and, now, a perpetual internet auction. We've morphed. And, of course, anything we offered early on is still available, assuming some one wants it.

While most of our material is not pricey, or rare, we've had many very high-priced offerings, most recently Richard's silkote block; a $525 early Dutch numeral stamp up for another week; Saleem's huge US collection, closing today, I think; some quite unusual First World War cinderellas; and often wonderful and rare covers (I still love my cover, with correspondence, form a 101st lieutenant on his first week in country, bought for a pittance here).

and, yes, we wandered far afield and probably have little more fresh commentary to add.

David

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Rhinelander
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20 Jan 2010
11:28:24pm
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

While I believe that the recent success of our member auction is great, I also have mixed feelings about it. To me it looks like we are loosing the character of a somewhat amateurish outlet to facilitate passing along stamps among members/friends (thus often at somewhat lower than market prices). Maybe limiting the number of auction lots was not such a bad idea after all.

Also, for quite a while I am now observing the decline -- or stabilization at very low levels -- of activity on our discussion board, while auction activity soars. I visit our discussion board daily. Philatelic discussions in our virtual stamp club, show and tell etc., are quite rare. In fact -- screening the last couple of weeks -- I almost feel as we have turned into a mere auction discussion forum where 80%+ of activity (according to my count) concerns one or the other aspect of our auction (accurate description of lots, catalog values and terminology, technical issues etc.). I am afraid that we are turning (have turned?) from a virtual stamp club maintaining a member auction to a stamp auction with some benefits. Where are all our members?

Well, maybe I am just having a bad day.

Arno

(Message edited by rhinelander on January 20, 2010)

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Harley

21 Jan 2010
01:17:08am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Arno,
Right now,,the auction part of SOR is a hot topic.Mainly because of the many new features being added,and a couple hundred new members asking questions and discussing the workings of the new features.( as well as we older residents)
And us older members wanting more info in the auction listings with as much accuracy as permitted.
It does create a lenghty discussion.
Maybe others can contribute by posting other topics on the DB.
I too notice several days with no entree,or minimalized bantor on any other subject.

Maybe this answer should have been posted under a new thread,instead of inserted into the auction discussion of relisting.?????????
TOM

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Dani20
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21 Jan 2010
10:32:45am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Dear Arno & Tom,
You make cogent points. To recapture the missing philatelic flavor perhaps we ought to post some topics that we'd like to hear more about. The discussion on varieties, for example, could lead to requests for postings on the identification, along with pictures, to help us all out. What are the particular topics that ring your chimes? Should we try to form some sub-committees to deal with them?
Dan

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Saleem
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21 Jan 2010
10:44:22am
re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

My thoughts on relisting feature :
Relisting should not be immediate - a waiting period of a week should be there for automatic relisting. And this should not be allowed more than twice - people grow tired of seeing the same material again and again.

A 20% lesser priced relisting is fine for automatic relisting, manually this could be changed by the auctioneer. There won't be any last minute bids because people would like to wait for the item being relisted at a lower price.

Maybe Tim could come up with a different color code for the automatically relisted material.
Saleem

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Barbour2p

17 Jan 2010
12:48:23pm

When going to the relist page it says I have to relist for 80% or less of original listing price..why is this?

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
17 Jan 2010
01:27:15pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

I believe it was put in place so that people would not keep relisting items over and over again that are not selling and bogging down the auction. The thought being if you didn't sell it at 100%, perhaps it would sell at 80%. You can relist it at 100% but you would have to do it manually.

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Bobstamp

17 Jan 2010
01:31:06pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

My very limited experience with auction selling is that if something doesn't sell the first time around, or the second, it might sell the third time around at the price of the original listing. Since the listing price can be changed manually, I don't see much of a problem. Perhaps an automated drop of 10% would be more acceptable?

Bob

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
17 Jan 2010
04:14:13pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Barbour, you don't need to use the relist function; it automatically relists everything for you exactly as you had it, EXCEPT that you need put in a new closing time and you must discount it at least 20% from its previous opening bid. As Bob P noted, this is to stop relisting lots at prices that don't generate bids; as Bob I notes, you can relist manually at any price. Personally, I like the 20% discount as a good trade all around.

David

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Bobstamp

18 Jan 2010
10:16:57am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Some inexperienced buyers might spend 100% of Scott on common stamps, but that would certainly be a waste of money. Most collectors in my experience grumble if dealers ask even 50% of Scott. Common stamps can often be purchased in box lots for as little as 5% of Scott. A seller who lists this material at full Scott value would be seen as gouging, in my opinion.

Bob

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Dani20

18 Jan 2010
10:49:11am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Dear Guys,
You may not be talking about the same issue. Fred is approaching this from a "business" perspective in a retail market environment. Bob is addressing the market from 2 perspectives, a very savvy buyer and a member of the SOR family.

Fred, if you take a look at the listings, there are many at ridiculously low staring bids. This is because we're more of a family than just a seller of items. To encourage newbies to become involved, we actually have a penny category.
Both you & Bob make valid points, but in a family the rules change for the family members.

Tim, of course, is also quite correct, but his focus is on accomplishing the task at hand- to get stuff listed into the auction with ease and efficiency.

So in brief, welcome to the family, and we look forward to your input on how to make things even better. Your sharp eye is a valuable asset.

All good thoughts,
Dan

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
18 Jan 2010
01:05:09pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Fred, 1/3 catalogue is a good starting price for SOR. Things in demand will generate more bids; others won't. I generally start quality material at between 20% and 25%.

The automated relist function is an OPTION that allows you to relist at the stroke of a key; you can always relist manaually until the cows come home. Hope this helps.

David

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Harley

18 Jan 2010
02:34:42pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Seeing as I'm a buyer,not a seller,, I have a slightly different point of view on this topic.

Most listings in our auction are in the reasonable price range for the item,and it's condition.

However,there are a few sellers who "might" be misreading the catalogue values when calculateing the values,,before figureing the discounted offering price.

One type in particular is the mint hinged. A hinged version of mint is a damaged stamp.It does not command a catalogue value of MNH, at half price. My personal opinion is it should be the difference between unused and used,and half of that as high bid start.

If you scroll down the auction offerings,you will notice those at inflated values recieve little if no bids.

And it's not just here at SOR,,I notice the same thing in auction catalogs and live auctions. I dont bid in another Club auction for simialr reseans,,every single item atarts out at full catalog. They sell about 2% of the total offerings(an average of 2600 offerings per auction).Most sold are to colectors who need that item,and cost is no opbject.

To sellers,most recent to join the SOR family,, keep the price reasonable.
I dont know how you feel,,but If I were to becme a seller,I would want to move the merchandise. I may be wrong,but a bag full of quarters is worth more than a fist full of 50 cent pieces.
The idea is to sell the stamps.Not to try for a retirement account on each sale.

I have no idea how many purchases I've made,just here on SOR, but it's many,many stamps.Not all were great bargains,but very,very few were over priced.

There currently are about 25 or so items listed that I have slight interest in,,,but have passed because of unreasonable prices.There are 2 or 3 that I wont bid because of country and/or postage costs.Already been there,done that,no thanks.

Relisting at a lower starting price may be a better solution for those not getting bids on some really nice stuff. I whole heartedly think the problem IS the price.IMHO.

TOM

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jan 2010
04:49:46pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

I don't think a hinged mint stamp is considered damaged. Scott catalogues put at the beginning of each country that prices are for hinged stamps up until a certain date or issue with a premium for never hinged. Sellers should base their percentage based on that. Obviously if stamps are hinged past that date/issue then there should be a discount from catalogue value.

Bob

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Harley

18 Jan 2010
09:36:30pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob(parkinlot),
the item I refer to was lited as 50% off scott,but the item was hinged,which as you said is the 1st listing.And that was the price asked--(hinged.full cat. value), which btw,was 50% of the mnh value.
I believe some are figureing top values for an item,and reducing that value,instead of a reduction of the true value as listed,,for its condition.
example--
item-mint hinged sct#=====50% of scott
scotts listing--
5.00 mh sct listed
10.00 mnh sct listed
price asked,50%of scott-- 5.00
That is not half off the item listed. half would be 2.50 for mint hinged.They are asking 100% of scott.
And you wonder why some of us,,older collectors,, are not bidding on certain items.It's not that we dont want the item,it's because of the starting bid,especialy when misrepresented.
TOM

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19 Jan 2010
10:29:32am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

I don't disagree with you there. Hinging does lower the value of the stamp but my concern was saying that a hinged stamp is a damaged stamp. For older stamps it is the norm. Scott's Volume 1 for US states that Catalogue Values are for never hinged starting with Scott 772. That means every Unused stamp before that the value listed is for hinged with a premium for NH. 772 was issued in 1935 so we have about 90 years of stamps where the normal condition is hinged.

Bob

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
19 Jan 2010
08:50:55pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom has a point in discussing how we value stamps. Scott's CV is for a certain grade. for contemporary stamps, VF is the norm and to be expected. For earlier stamps, VF is NOT the norm and anytime we quote CV, we quote Scott's CV for VF. It's understood, however, or at least I understand, that all sorts of dicounting takes place, especially to compensate for centering less than VF, but for other things as well.

But Scott doesn't provide CV for grades other than VF, and we're left to our own devices. The starting point in discussing CV is Scott's VF and after that, it's what the market will bear. I often go back to Scott 73, a stamp that in VF is probably valued correctly, but that in anything other than VF is so plentiful as to bear no relation to that value whatsoever. We've seen that stamp grace these pages before, courtesy of Perry and maybe others. My copies are all at or below F-VF and all acquired for pennies on the dollar, when that dollar is measured against a VF CV.

David

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Harley

19 Jan 2010
11:09:41pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob,
please dont say that to a mint only collector.
Any alteration to a mint stamp is considered "damage" to them.
And I agree to a certain point.
No matter if it's an 1880 stamp or a 2010 stamp,hinged is hinged, not 100 % mint.
And an intentional damage to the "mint" stamp.That hinge didnt get on there by itself.

I dont consider a hinged stamp as anything else other than a hinged stamp,regardless if it's mint or used. But a used can be soaked and hinge marks disapear,,, you cant change the fact with mint stamps.Once soaked the gum is gone and it becomes another animal--unused/no gum. Which,btw,scott dose not list.

Be warned,do not tell a mint only collector that hinged is OK,not damaged.

TOM

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Bobstamp

19 Jan 2010
11:37:08pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Oh what an illogical species we are!

The collectors of mint stamps die a thousand deaths if they see a hinge mark, much less a hinge remnant. They want their old stamps to look like they were made yesterday.

The collectors of antique furniture die a thousand deaths if someone refinishes an old chair or desk or table, thereby removing the "patina" (a.k.a. dirty layer of gunk). They want their old furniture to look like it's been through a war!

And then, of course, we are told that it's a good idea to remove the gum from certain old stamps because the gum, if and when it cracks, can damage the paper. And we're told to remove the gum from certain other stamps because sulphuric acid in the gum will soon damage the paper, if it hasn't already. How does a gum purist deal with those situations?

Bob

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Rgnpcs

20 Jan 2010
12:12:30am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

I would venture to say that a good many of those pre-1900 MNH stamps have been regummed. Thousands were regummed by the Drysdale Co in Miami Beach, FL during the early 1990's. One of the big advertisers in Linn's was a user of this company; he was also involved in the bid-rigging scandal, and a first class crook. I have not seen any of his ads now for a couple of years. Maybe he dropped dead!
Richaard

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Bobstamp

20 Jan 2010
01:38:51am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Good point, Richaard. Re-gummed stamps certainly do exist. Beverly Fox (co-owner with Andrew Blanchard of Weeda Stamps) once showed me a re-gummed classic Canadian stamp. Under magnification, you could clearly see that gum had migrated around the perforation teeth to the front of the stamp and had coated the paper fibres at the torn edges of the teeth. That, apparently, was a very sloppy example of re-gumming; I understand that a "properly" re-gummed stamp can fool even the experts.

Bob

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
20 Jan 2010
08:37:32am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Tom,

Once again, I don't disagree that any collector would prefer never hinged to hinged. For older stamps you are going to pay a major premium to buy a never hinged stamp and the price listed in Scott is for hinged until 772. Perhaps we are aguing semantics here but I have never heard the term "Damaged" to refer to a hinged stamp. That term is usually reserved for tears, creases, pulled perfs etc. Maybe a NH collector considers the stamps damaged but the hobby doesn't. Many of the Inverted Jenny stamps are hinged. Every one of those reside in someone's collection. Are used stamps damaged? The most valuable US Stamp 85A Z Grill is used. The British Guiana Penny Magenta (Scott 13) is used and damaged.

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
08:50:24am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bobstamp Bob,
Those who were fooled and purchased those "regummed" as mint did not loose out entirely.
There are collectors for everything philatelic.Some monies can be recovered from a sale of those regummed to collectors of "Fakes and Forgeries".
I've seen on occasion where fake stamps sold for more than the value of the genuine item. And not in days of yor,but most recent on the Ebay auction site.
go figure.

You did not include in your list of regummed,,the official versions of the National Parks Issues that came with no gum,but could be sent in to USPOD for gumming (full sheets). Of course that's gumming without the re. And official,not fake.

Cant recall how often,but a lot of times in the Scott listings is a notation "forgeries exit". So read the book,dont just look at the pretty pictures.

TOM

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
09:36:06am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Back to the original thread--relisting.

I do hope all this negative talk does not push our members to "give away" their wares.
It's meant to educate and help the sellers in a business way to create a freindly seller/buyer atmosphere.
The majority of our members are "collectors" of philatelic materials and it is only a "hobby".
They/we are not investing in the future,not building a retirement fund consisting of rare and unusual antiques, and as far as I know,none are multimillionares wanting to through away a few grand on a whimsical spending spree paying out more than would ever be recovered from dispensing later on.

I believe the basis of this club was tradeing duplicates to inhance their collections with needed stamps and getting rid of excess.
The auction ,added later, was an idea to help support and pay for your hobby.(again,ridding excess).
As with any good thing,there begins a greed amongst a few well intensioned members,and small though it be, it escalates over time.But all good things come to an end.(sic).
Some of us are demanding in our need for explicate degrees of discriptions in our auction, and although it may seem like we may be yelling fraud,misquote,wrong number,wrong value,etc.,,we are really asking for more indepth info,and/or reasoning behind ones valuation given.Why are you asking so much,why do you think,in your opinion,it's worth what you ask????????
On several occassions I've emailed a seller with either a suggested correction of info,or questions as above,and very few respond .A few thanked, and a few said--you dont HAVE TO bid.
So I now post here instead of private.

TOM

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Bobstamp

20 Jan 2010
10:02:53am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

There aren't many things I like about capitalism, but the freedom to vote with my money is one of them. If stamp sellers here at Stamporama or anywhere don't sell as many stamps as they think they should, they need to look at their price structure as well as their customer service. Just as I don't buy from sellers who don't provide large, clear images, I don't buy from sellers who overprice their lots or refuse to communicate effectively.

Bear in mind, though, that items that appear to be overpriced may in fact be very hard to come by, regardless of catalogue value. Perfect centering, great cancellations, wonderful color, great usage on cover have often caused me to spend far more than catalogue value. I just can't resist beautiful stamps or covers that say to me, "Bob, don't you want to... collect me?"


Bob

(Message edited by Bobstamp on January 20, 2010)

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Harley

20 Jan 2010
10:18:20am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Bob,
I think we are drifting to two separate pages here.
My interuption into this thread was in conjuction with a fairly common stamp listed incorrectly(value wise).And not the very rare and high end stamps.If you want to go there,I now give my opinion as to their values.
A C3a inverted Jenny,ripped in half and scotch taped back together is worth more than a perfect condition mnh C3.

Scott has a chart for gum condition in the catalog,but no gradeing chart.The gradeing chart is in every edition of their magazine-the Scott Stamp Monthly.

So useing just the catalog is a guessing game as to true valueation of a given item.We dont always get it right,but that's the other guys opinion.

the majority of items in our auction are common stuff,seldon or never,have I seen an inverted Jenny offered(at any price).For the membership to be more presice,accurate,and give a positive ID on a stamp offered is asking them to be experts in every field of philately.Experts have more important things to do besides selling nickle and dime stamps in an online auction.IMHO.

so members,be nice,take into account that sellers are people like you and me. Stamp collectors in all the true meanings of the phrase,philatelist -"Stamp collecting,hobby of Kings"
Sellers,,relist those items.I would however suggest a waiting period instead of instant relisting.A week,or month???? Put up some new stuff in between relisting.And rotate those in the relisting if they too dont sell.
TOM

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
20 Jan 2010
11:21:19am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

This actually has been a good conversation.

Tom is right that SOR was started as a trading and round robin group; and long before we had ANY auction, we had a newsletter. Eventually we had a twice-annual mailed auction, and, now, a perpetual internet auction. We've morphed. And, of course, anything we offered early on is still available, assuming some one wants it.

While most of our material is not pricey, or rare, we've had many very high-priced offerings, most recently Richard's silkote block; a $525 early Dutch numeral stamp up for another week; Saleem's huge US collection, closing today, I think; some quite unusual First World War cinderellas; and often wonderful and rare covers (I still love my cover, with correspondence, form a 101st lieutenant on his first week in country, bought for a pittance here).

and, yes, we wandered far afield and probably have little more fresh commentary to add.

David

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Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
20 Jan 2010
11:28:24pm

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

While I believe that the recent success of our member auction is great, I also have mixed feelings about it. To me it looks like we are loosing the character of a somewhat amateurish outlet to facilitate passing along stamps among members/friends (thus often at somewhat lower than market prices). Maybe limiting the number of auction lots was not such a bad idea after all.

Also, for quite a while I am now observing the decline -- or stabilization at very low levels -- of activity on our discussion board, while auction activity soars. I visit our discussion board daily. Philatelic discussions in our virtual stamp club, show and tell etc., are quite rare. In fact -- screening the last couple of weeks -- I almost feel as we have turned into a mere auction discussion forum where 80%+ of activity (according to my count) concerns one or the other aspect of our auction (accurate description of lots, catalog values and terminology, technical issues etc.). I am afraid that we are turning (have turned?) from a virtual stamp club maintaining a member auction to a stamp auction with some benefits. Where are all our members?

Well, maybe I am just having a bad day.

Arno

(Message edited by rhinelander on January 20, 2010)

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Harley

21 Jan 2010
01:17:08am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Arno,
Right now,,the auction part of SOR is a hot topic.Mainly because of the many new features being added,and a couple hundred new members asking questions and discussing the workings of the new features.( as well as we older residents)
And us older members wanting more info in the auction listings with as much accuracy as permitted.
It does create a lenghty discussion.
Maybe others can contribute by posting other topics on the DB.
I too notice several days with no entree,or minimalized bantor on any other subject.

Maybe this answer should have been posted under a new thread,instead of inserted into the auction discussion of relisting.?????????
TOM

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Dani20

21 Jan 2010
10:32:45am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

Dear Arno & Tom,
You make cogent points. To recapture the missing philatelic flavor perhaps we ought to post some topics that we'd like to hear more about. The discussion on varieties, for example, could lead to requests for postings on the identification, along with pictures, to help us all out. What are the particular topics that ring your chimes? Should we try to form some sub-committees to deal with them?
Dan

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Saleem

21 Jan 2010
10:44:22am

re: How Relisting Lots works in practice; discussion of MNH vs MH; other listing practices

My thoughts on relisting feature :
Relisting should not be immediate - a waiting period of a week should be there for automatic relisting. And this should not be allowed more than twice - people grow tired of seeing the same material again and again.

A 20% lesser priced relisting is fine for automatic relisting, manually this could be changed by the auctioneer. There won't be any last minute bids because people would like to wait for the item being relisted at a lower price.

Maybe Tim could come up with a different color code for the automatically relisted material.
Saleem

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