Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I certainly need help with some of my stuff. So to start the ball rolling, I would like to find any information, or views about this curiosity:
This is from the 1891 series, SG49 (Scott 62) 50c on 48c; with Chinese surcharge.
Normally, I would have accepted that this could have been part of a cancellation applied to a cover in transit, or in the office of receipt (I have seen similar from other countries' stamps).
This though is mint and very fresh looking.
Could this be a company security marking? If it is, it is unusual in that there is no company name.
Could this have some fiscal purpose? Again, not a standard marking that I've ever seen.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Or offer an opinion?
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An odd 'partial missing colour' on the 1973 issue. SG 293 (Sc 285) $2 pale green & reddish brown.
Note that the pale pinkish brown is missing from the top of the stamp, down to the line of shoulders. The left hand image is the normal print:
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Another from the same 1973 series, SG294b (Sc 286 unlisted variety), 'Pink omitted'. Seen here with normal on the right. Both are inverted watermark varieties:
I am using a 1997 Scott catalogue, so there is a possibility that my references may be out of date. If you know better, please correct me.
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Ningpo,
Thanks for starting this thread. If I may offer an opinion on your QV Scott 62 above with the 4062 marking, I think it seems like some sort of fiscal revenue cancel to me. Perhaps this stamp was lightly applied to something other than paper, and was easily removed with gum intact. I have no proof, just my humble opinion. It just seems like revenue use to me.
Below, I scanned a stamp from my collection with what appears to be an 8659 number and a date cancel below it. I always assumed this stamp was a revenue usage.
Thanks for all of your other Hong Kong posts, I enjoy reading all of them. You have a great Hong Kong collection.
Linus
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I think we may have to wait some time before an answer is found. There is a slight possibility that these had a 'receipt' type function. I have seen the odd document with similar use.
In 1946, Hong Kong issued locally overprinted 'receipt' stamps, three of which are on GVI low values. The other is on a 1917 'stamp duty' issue:
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Many, many moons ago, I picked these pairs up at a local stamp fair:
As you can see, the bottom perforations are pretty grim. Why would I bother with these, they are after all fairly cheap stamps, when they are in fine condition?
Well firstly, this seemed a strange combination; why would pairs of the three bottom values all be in such a poor state? The 4 cent pair in particular looks like my old hamster had fancied some nesting material; but this is very regular.
Now I know that this is all speculation but I wondered if these were the remainders of a booklet. Well, it so happens that a booklet was issued in 1923 with the SG reference SB7. The booklet contained twelve 1c, twelve 2c and sixteen 4c stamps, with Script CA watermarks.
As with other earlier booklet issues (GB included), these were assembled from normal sheets, sometimes with interleaving and then either stitched or stapled with front and back covers. Blocks of these were then placed in a guillotine and cut. Accuracy was not of paramount importance.
Many stamp issues of Hong Kong were not endowed with large margins, consequently mis-cutting probably occurred more often than not.
Again just speculation on my part: as there were sixteen of the 4c value and not 12, each block entering the guillotine, would have have been uneven in thickness at one end of the block. The blade may not have coped too well, hence the ragged perfs.
So what? Well, a complete SB7 booklet is listed by Gibbons at £ 4,750 ($US 7,340).
It's all academic anyway; none of this can be proved from my examples. Nonetheless, an interesting conversation piece to 'break the ice at parties'.
As you can imagine, I don't get invited to many parties.
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Not sure why but "you'll always find me in the kitchen at parties " just came into my head.
Something to do with age I guess!
The top perfs are almost into the stamps as well.
vic
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Now you've got me started. Wasn't that from the 80's? Can't remember who though! I must have been in the kitchen at a party at the time!
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Jona Lewie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ll_Always_Find_Me_in_the_Kitchen_at_Parties
it's in your head all day now.
sorry.vic
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-23 15:45:48)
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Oh thanks a bunch!
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WARNING: Parental guidance may be required.
If you are at all squeamish, please look away now!The following photograph was printed from an original negative. This image was subsequently used to produce one of the more gruesome postcards one could buy in Hong Kong:
Message on back:
Dear Ada,
Weather glorious, scenery just stunning and such friendly locals, wish you were here.
Love to all
Jim
Only kidding.
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Here's a first flight cover from Hong Kong to London, via Penang. The Imperial Airway Service flight left H.K. on 27th March 1936.
Only when I got this home and looked at it a bit closer, I found the 'broken flower' variety; SG126a (Sc140 unlisted):
This hadn't been spotted by the dealer.
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From the 1935 Silver Jubilee issue, SG134b (Scott 148?); short extra flagstaff variety.
This can be seen above the main tower, to the left of the flagstaff. The added bonus is the US President's Line part ship cancellation. Unfortunately, only the 'S.S' portion of the ship's name is visible:
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From the 1935 Silver Jubilee issue, SG134a (Scott 148?); extra flagstaff variety, on the top left stamp in the block:
Here's a close-up of the variety, to the right of the main flagstaff tower:
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Continuing with the same theme, here's a non listed 'vertical line flaw' variety on SG136 (Sc#150).These line flaws turn up quite regularly on the Silver Jubilee issue; not just on Bradbury Wilkinson printings but all the others too. There are some very strange looking flaws that I have seen on other countries' issues.
Although this probably isn't a constant flaw, I bought this as a more extreme example of that type. Notice a similar but very feint vertical line flaw to its left. This seems to stop below the level of the letter 'H' and then continue beyond the top level of the 'H' to the border.
Just in case this is ever recognised as a constant flaw, I have already chosen a name for it:
The 'balloon string' flaw.
Anybody else got any of these flaws?
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Not on the HK set, but another one (I think Mauritius; can't recall).
I do have a couple of HK errors, such as the hooked N for the lower denomination KG-VI Silver Wedding, broken Chinese characters, etc.
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In January 1891 the 10 cent postal rate to the UK was reduced to 7 cents. As there was no 7c definitive, a local firm; Noronha & Sons were instructed to overprint remainders of the 10 cent adhesive to reflect the new rate. Similarly, remainders of the 30 cent mauve were to be overprinted to cover the double weight UK postal rate of 14 cents.
Both overprints are found with two distinct varieties; the antique 't' and the small 't'. The antique variety occurs once on a pane and the small variety 3 to 4 times; "depending on the intensity of inking".
A study of these varieties states that the antique 't' occurs in position 1 (the top left hand corner) and the small 't' on adhesive numbers: 21, 46, 47 and 54, due to damage or breakage. It’s a curious coincidence, that all four 'slugs' could exhibit the same characteristic deterioration.
Close-up images of the small 't' varieties in my own collection, seem to confirm that though.
Although Gibbons lists the antique ‘t’ varieties as SG43a and SG44a (Sc#64? and Sc# 65?), the catalogue only makes reference to the small ‘t’ when warning collectors not to confuse the two.
Yang on the other hand actually lists both types of variety for the two provisionals: Yang 48a and b and Yang 49a and b. Unfortunately no image is shown, nor any useful information describing the difference; but then that is a typical vagary of Yang.
Despite the warning in SG, copies of the small 't' sometimes appear for sale as the antique 't' variety.
This is somewhat understandable, as SG prefers to write 50 words to describe the difference, rather than printing a small image of the antique 't' to actually help collectors.
The following two images show a side by side comparison of the normal 7 cent on 10 cent and the antique 't' version:
The next two are side by side images of the antique 't' and the small 't'. Note that the crossbar of the antique 't' accurately bisects the upright and is a chunkier, slightly longer slug:
The following close-up images probably show the differences far better:
NORMAL
SMALL 't'
ANTIQUE 't'
And finally, close-up images of three different copies of the small 't' variety, on both provisional overprint values, with normal:
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09:10:05am
Ningpo - I'm not scolding you in anyway, but I have a question. I receive emails for every post that goes up on the discussion board and I have received half a dozen (at least) of your latest post. Are you continually editing it and resubmitting (which is totally fine)? Or do I need to contact Tim for help because there's a problem with the SOR email system?
Thank you for your help,
Lisa
DB Moderator
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Yes Lisa, I have been submitting a lot of re-edits. One reason, is the difficulty I have had posting images in side by side format. The preview shows everything fine but when I submit the post, the images don't fit the screen width. I have now worked out the 'formula'.
I have also been plagued with editor issues. Each time I insert any text control characters; bold, underline, colour, heading etc, the editor puts them in the wrong place EVERY TIME.
This also applies to the insertion of images.
In hindsight, perhaps I should have developed my post in the 'test area'; but I was not anticipating all this grief.
In future, I'll do that.
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Ningpo said,
"I have also been plagued with editor issues. Each time I insert any text control characters; bold, underline, colour, heading etc, the editor puts them in the wrong place EVERY TIME. "
Me too! In addition, I cannot highlight anything in Discussion board, not visibly at least. I've mentioned this to Tim, but I thought I was the only one. I'm using Safari on an iMac. What are you using, Ningpo?
Bob
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Google Chrome under Windows 7 Pro but an old PC.
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From the 1891 provisional issue, Sg44a (Sc# 65?); 14 cents on 30 cents antique 't' variety. As there was only one print run of this provisional, it is somewhat scarcer than the 7 cents on 10 cents, of which there were two.
What strikes me is the condition of the forme 'cents' on this copy, in particular the 't'. This is far better than the 7c/10c copy I posted earlier. Yet the 14c/30c printing was done after completion of the 7c/10c print runs, where deterioration of the forme 'cents' was supposedly progressive. Perhaps even more remarkable, is the fact that the same formes had previously been used on the provisional overprints of 1880: 5c/18c, 5c/8c, 10c/12c, 10c/16c and 10c/24c.
One factor that seems to have affected the quality of the 7 cent on 10 cent, is the 'resistance' of the green ink to the black, whereas the 30 cent mauve absorbed the ink much better.
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cocollectibles wrote:
"I do have a couple of HK errors, such as the hooked N for the lower denomination KG-VI Silver Wedding, broken Chinese characters, etc."
Peter, that 'hooked N' (or toe to N) you have; is that by any chance in a block of four?
Also, which broken Chinese characters are you referring to? The KGV 4c carmine-rose (SG120b) Sc#133 ?
By the way, assuming that you use Scott catalogues, are all these varieties that I refer to actually listed somewhere? The trouble is I only have a Scott Standard Postage Stamp Cataogue Vol.1B from 1997, which lists absolutely nothing in the way of varieties.
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Scott is rubbish when it comes to typing these varieties for GB and BC stamps. The specialized catalogue has some, but nothing at the level that Gibbons and Yang give.
I don't specifically collect these errors, so I only have a couple of them.
The toe on the N is on a single stamp.
The broken Chinese character is on a 15c KG-VI, as shown below.
I also have KG-V 1c with the broken crown error and 25c broken flower on the right stamp in the pair, as below.
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Those look like nice copies Peter. The broken crown variety in particular looks surprisingly clean and tone free.
While I'm on the subject of the 7c/10c and 14c/30c provisionals, perhaps an introduction to a forgery might prove useful. This is a screen-shot of something I prepared for an eBay buyer, who had made a bad choice and bought the RH stamp and paid too much. This was in the days when one could identify buyers and contact them through the message system.
It was listed as genuine. To a casual collector, the overprint looks quite similar to the illustrations in catalogues and the subtle differences might be completely overlooked.
As you can see in the image below, I pointed out some of the differences but stopped short to avoid labeling a bird's nest; because every single slug is actually wrong.
This I think illustrates the caution that is needed when buying ANY overprint. First study known genuine copies and try to find out any history of overprint forgery.
Buying off sites such as eBay, Ebid, Delcampe etc is at times risky, unless you are very familiar with the material. After all, most sellers are not full time dealers and don't necessarily know much, if anything about their wares. Mind you, some auction houses don't make a better fist of things either.
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I would love to see HK Forgeries as a topic for an article on its own. Would you consider writing one for SOR? I've never done one so I can't tell you what is involved, but I'm sure it is well explained. I have Ming Tsang's book on forgeries but I'm thinking something practical or about the more commonly found varieties.
Cheers,
Peter
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Peter, I think that is an excellent idea in principle. It's just that I don't think I am qualified enough to do it.
The main reason being; you have the very reference book that I don't have. I have tried to find one without success.
Although I have a fair number of forgeries in my collection (including Spiro), some are attributed to individuals like: Panelli, Sartory and Zechmeyer. These and others I have, I can't properly identify without the appropriate reference material. So I am likely to make a pig's ear of any write-up.
Until I can get hold of such a reference book, I may just have to bumble along hoping that somebody out there (besides your good self) in the StampoRama ether might put me right. I do wish someone else out there would contribute something, to at least break up my monotonous tone.
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The following is a link to website with the book you have not got.
http://www.abebooks.com/Hong-Kong-Forgeries-Stamps-MING-TSANG/202487837/bd
Vic
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-03-12 20:02:11)
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Thanks very much for the link Vic, just a had a quick look at it. So this works out at around £26 plus £5 postage for me in the UK.
Perhaps Peter, or anyone else who owns a copy could advise me on how comprehensive the book is.
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If you PM me your private email address, I will scan the table of contents and send that to you as a PDF file. For copyright reasons, obviously I cannot send scans of the book (aside from the fact it is over 140 pages!).
I have much in the way of HK philatelic literature but I can't do justice to any of it until I stop this time wasting work and career stuff. It gets in the way of my stamp enjoyment!! Maybe in a couple of years, when I retire, I can devote more time to these.
Cheers,
Peter
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Ningpo,
I love all of your Hong Kong posts. I also am busy with work and family. If I was retired, I would post something everyday in reply to your posts. Your SOR threads are my oasis in the middle of my chaotic work day. I very much appreciate your efforts.
I also own a copy of Ming Tsang's book on forgeries, and I would recommend it as part of your Hong Kong reference library. The pictures are not the greatest, but it does show the pricelists the forgers openly advertised with to stamp dealers, and a picture of a sheet of their QV "facsimiles."
I found this stamp in my collection. This is from my 1935 Silver Jubilee MNH set. Thanks to you, I discovered it has a distinct line from the castle up to between the H and O.
I hope you can see it in this scan. I never even knew I had this "oddity" in my collection! Keep on posting, Ningo, I read and reread every single one on Hong Kong.
Linus
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Peter, thank you for your kind offer. That would help greatly. I'll send you my details. Funny you mention Hong Kong literature; tonight I failed on three counts to get some extra books on eBay. I won one, which was the bottom of my list and is more a curiosity: Hong Kong Descriptive Catalogue of Stamps & Cards - Juan Mencarini, printed in 1898. I seem to fail more so on literature than anything else.
Linus, thank you for your enthusiasm. I do hope you get the opportunity to post more; even if it's just to look at your avatar.
Thanks too for the recommendation.
That line flaw on your Jubilee is only about two clicks away from the one I listed; very similar. You should try and get these images posted up here nice and big. I'm sure everyone prefers that. By now you probably realise that I don't post an awful lot without an image of some sort; many in yer face. To me, this hobby of ours is a visual one.
nI1947 for example, has just posted something I have never seen before; a 96 cent grey-black Sperati forgery. So this is really encouraging.
It would be great to think that these Hong Kong threads could become a good source of reference as they develop.
I think of it this way; not every collector of this sort of stuff can afford to buy Hong Kong reference books. Some of them are very expensive, or indeed very difficult to get hold of. If just a few of us have these books amongst us, we can make the information available to a wider audience. This in conjunction with images of actual stamps etc. might encourage others to look more closely at their collection and post on here as well.
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Another variation of SG43 (SC#64); a double on the overprint. However, this may very well be bogus:
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Anyone got any ideas about this cancel - no one at the Hong Kong Study Circle can ID it - so hopefully someone here will be able to
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The Hong Kong Study Circle is the definitive group for Hong Kong issues, including foreign cancels on HK stamps. I checked references these folks know well, such as Webb and Scamp & Fine (arrival cancels) but could not find anything resembling the 22 bar red cancel with the capital A. I would suspect a ship cancel or company cancel, or private cancel of some kind. A nice curiosity nonetheless.
Peter
Edit: A close but no cigar finding: In Scamp & Fine "Hong Kong Arrival Markings" there is an entry under Columbo, Ceylon:
"A" in upright oval of killer bars. Unfortunately, it notes these types have 3 or 4 bards below the A.
The number of bars doesn't match your cancel, unfortunately.
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Welcome WillLack.
That's a very striking specimen you have there. I have never seen that before, even in the many auction catalogues I've trawled through.
An unrecorded Straits Settlements marking?
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It was bought from a French dealer at Stampex some time ago - and it was in a collection he broke up from an old guy who had died and the estate sold it to him
I have scanned ebay and lots of on line auctions for something similar - absolutely nothing comparable.... its driving me mad to know what where when and how.... ugh!
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You will have to be very patient with these type of markings. I have been collecting Hong Kong for about twenty five years and haven't seen one. I too have a few strange ones that aren't identified. Just occasionally, information can pop up from completely unrelated sources.
It might be worth looking for old H.K. related auction catalogues, as these can sometimes illustrate material that is not documented in standard reference books.
For example, I once found in a dealer's stock an unused Qv 5c pale blue with no watermark. I couldn't explain it and the dealer would not sell it, until he found out what it was.
This remained a mystery to me for twenty years until I found this in a recently bought, 2004 auction catalogue (Lot no. 43):
Although the one I found wasn't the same colour as those shown, it did explain that a number of different colour proofs were printed for selection by the postal authorities.
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A big welcome to new member WillLack. I also collect the same things that you collect and love your avatar, as I have never seen anything quite like it before. On your introduction, William, on another thread, you mentioned your search for Hong Kong arrival markings. I have scanned in some that I have been fortunate to acquire over the years. Feel free to use these scans of stamps from my collecton any way you want, and that goes for all my scans on Stamporama to anyone reading this post. Enjoy all!
Linus
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada:
Tacoma, Washington, USA
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Those are terrific arrival markings! I've never seen one from Tacoma, WA. I like that you have the full duplex cancel on pairs and blocks too.
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I love finding river steam boat cancels on Hong Kong stamps. Usually you find partial cancels on single stamps, but I hit the jackpot when an approval dealer sent me this block in the mail. This "FROM STEAMER BOX" cancellation is a variation as compared to the "Type F" pictured on page 371 of the reference book "The Philatelic and Postal History of Hong Kong and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by F.W. Webb. Notice my block's cancel has a number 24 with a vertical line to the right of it not seen in the Type F as pictured by Webb. Although Webb states in his book that the use of Steamer Boxes aboard ships from Hong Kong to Swatow does not appear to have been officially authorized. I love Hong Kong used blocks, and this is one of the "gems" in my HK collection. I was very lucky to acquire it. Enjoy!
Linus
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I have a number of HK cancelled abroad - my new particular interest of collecting now. Here are a couple of my favourite items
Mauritius cancel on HK
Colombo, Ceylon
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Mauritius! Wow! Terrific find! Very difficult to get. Scamp and Fine note that this was mentioned in Webb, but without further explanation or image.
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06:59:57am
This is a great thread!
I have a potential Scott 60C I found in a collection but the notes state that it requires expertization. Can someone here save me a submission if there is some glaring example of it being fake?
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Can you post a larger scan (about 400px) with better definition.
From this vantage there are some possible issues with it.
Thank you
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Of course, the first thing to check is to see if the postmark is ABOVE the overprint.
I don't know all the overprint settings, but the font is noticeably different from the ones I've seen for the S. O. overprints.
Here is a sample link (see leftmost and specifically the rightmost stamp):
Stamp Office and Stamp Duty overprints
In the English, the "O" appears different in shape and position.
In the Chinese, note the differences in slope of certain slightly "uphill" strokes in comparison to the horizontal strokes. In your stamp, some of them appear parallel rather than slightly angled. For example, in the bottom left character, examine the top stroke of the left half and right half of that character. The right top is usually more sloped compared to the left top. On your stamp, they appear to be at roughly the same slope.
But again, I don't know if there were different settings.
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Here are 3 , 2 are certified, the other?
Compared to your sample
As KHJ noted the slope of the bottom left letters is different
The E shaped letter does not touch the symbol on the right which also has no slope on the long leg.
The main feature is the closed loops on the S, yours are open.
Also the S is taller than the O but yours seems much taller
I personally have not spent much (any time) on this country but I do have an extensive library of genuines and fakes ... so maybe if time permits...
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10:10:35pm
Thanks for all the responses. I will upload a higher resolution image this weekend.
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07:50:30am
As promised - Here is a 600 dpi scan. It looks to me like the overprint is on top of the cancel especially at the top of the "S" and on top of the "G" in in Hong.
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Appears like the overprint is on top of the cancellation - more noticeable on top S
The bottom loop of the S is too open.
The bottom left symbol has several issues, the letters joining, the top slopes in the wrong direction & the inclination.
The S is too large
IMO this one is a filler.
Edited: Bobstamp may be correct on the overprint, the larger scan shows a possible difference but the key is the lettering does not match any certified copies
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09:11:35am
I have to agree..
Thanks everyone!!!
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Wait! I want to stir the pot too!
I recently had suspicions about the authenticity of the overprint on a U.S. stamp franking a Philippine-American War cover; In that case, it's simply impossible to tell if the overprint is under or above the cancellation. Bob's Hong Kong stamp, however, seems unambiguous, at least as far as the "layering" of the stamp, the overprint, and the cancellation go. Look at this enlargement of the Chinese ideogram at the bottom right corner:
It's obviously not a high-res image, but to my eyes the overprint is beneath the cancellation, not above it.The arc of the cancellation has blurred the overprint, at least to my eye. It would perhaps be useful to see a high-res image of just the lower-right ideogram.
Bob
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This is the latest addition to my ‘treaty port’ collection; a block of six (1912-1921 KGV) SG101 two cent definitives. It has been cancelled with a Webb type ‘M’ double ring postmark of British Post Office Hankow.
According to Webb, the ‘M’ type postmark is not uncommon; however having collected for over 25 years, I have only two examples. In fact, it was mainly used in 1916, on un-overprinted definitives (although examples exist up to July 1917). It continued to be used on Hong Kong overprinted China definitives until 1922, when the office closed.
This had been listed before but I passed on it, as it was quite highly priced. However, it was listed again having not been sold.
Why did I change my mind? There were three factors that persuaded me to bid on this:
Firstly, I realised that I did not have a complete strike in my collection and this was the first block I had seen.
Secondly, the date of the postmark; February 19th 1916, is the earliest date recorded by Webb.
Thirdly, the peculiar shape of perforations at the bottom: in a previous post on this thread I showed examples of three mint pairs of the 1 cent, 2 cent and 4 cent, with similar perforations. I surmised that these may have been remnants of a booklet.
The seller of this block actually made the same observation in his item description. So I appear not to be alone in this respect. However, in this instance the definitive is an earlier (Multiple Crown CA) issue, this may have come from the 1912 booklet listed as SB6. This too contained panes of twelve 1 cent, twelve 2 cent and sixteen 4 cent definitives.
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Nice block, any idea about the purple cancel at the bottom?
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I bought this recently and missed out on the clearer strike - Military Station No.1 Philippines Mil Sta. No.1 Manila
This is a great link to US/Philippine cancels
http://www.collectorsclubchicago.org/philippines.php
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-14 11:48:37)
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From eBay seller Momenstamps perchance? This looks like one I viewed a few days ago but couldn't make it out. This has a 'Pacific' look to it to me.
He had a 5c on 18c with an early Manila cancel that caught my eye too. In the past he has had a lot of desirable material.
Incidentally Will, I stumbled upon your posting (your avatar here) on Pinterest. There are some stunning specimens pinned on that site too.
Edit:
The purple strike on my block is too indistinct to identify (in fact there is a second 'ghosting' above it). However this resembles a Japanese type cancel. There is an outside chance this might be a Lloyd Austrico ship's cancel but this may be outside the date of usage.
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Sorry Will, I see you had already worked out the 10 cent to be a US Philippines cancel. Momenstamps had a number of curious chequerboard cancels which mainly seemed to have been applied over company cachets. I'm a bit dubious about those. Perhaps you know something about them?
I'll see if I can post one or two of them.
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Here are two with Holiday, Wise & Co company cachets. In fact the second isn't a chequerboard pattern but more of a long grid. These don't look like postal markings to me but more resemble non-attributable 'stray letter' killers.
There were other chequerboard types as well but again I'm not sure about them either. However, I stand to be corrected.
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WillLack-I searched just the underlying cancel & nothing close came up.
Just some barred ovals with a single letter.
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yes the Manila cancel was striking and went for more than I bid - at the last moment
but this item I bought arrived today from Momen etc nice piece
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This is the Manila piece went for $121.58 - ugh just too slow
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This is another gem from my foreign arrival cancel collection
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That's a lovely strike. I think Webb mentions Calcutta as an example of arrival markings but does not show any examples.
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Dead Letter office - Singapore
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I'm pretty sure this is a changeling but I'll post it here anyways.
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Just purchased this gem of an arrival cancel - Salisbury, Rhodesia ( what is now called Harare, Zimbabwe). This must be a very unusual and uncommon mark on a HK stamp. It would have been fascinating to know the route and the contents and receipent? It is end of the Boer War date wise - was it to a soldier, a Chinese worker or to a gold trader? who knows...
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Just scanned this in to try to decipher the postmark. Well I'm none the wiser. As Roman numerals were used for the month, the date would be on three lines. This is probably from the Crown CA 1882-96 issue, but there's too much paper on the back to confirm (if not it would be the earlier issue of 1880):
Reading clockwise from the top:
the first fully visible 'character' is two vertical strokes with the feint outline of a top bar.
the second is a P
the third is a reversed N
the fourth is an M
the fifth looks like an incomplete reversed D
the sixth maybe an E or F
then a period perhaps
then what looks like a G rotated 90°clockwise
then a period.
The remainder I won't even guess at apart from the character right at the perf edge; which resembles a K
Here it is again rotated 90°:
Anybody got any ideas? Cyrillic Russian perhaps?
Update
After a little bit of reading, I think I can translate the first few characters that I listed. I have made an assumption that the fifth character (reversed D) is probably just a distorted letter O, as any other character resembling it would make no phonetic sense. The sixth character is the letter E, as our letter F resembles this:¢ in Cyrillic (but with a complete circle and serifed vertical stroke).
So, I've come up with P R I M O Je, where the Je would seem to be phonetically longer, as in Jay (or maybe Jeh).
This may be the ships name (or part thereof) as numerous Russian maritime postmarks have the name in that portion of the date stamp.
Again, based on many other postmarks (not just Russian), the remainder of the characters down to the bottom perfs are probably read upwards and relate perhaps to the shipping line, or route, or home port.
I spent an age browsing hundreds of images relating to Russian maritime markings but found nothing.
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Cyrillic Russian was my guess, with the backward N especially. I checked Webb and Scamp and Fine's "HK Arrival Markings" and they do reference both an Odessa mail cancel as well as Russian ship cancels. But the images (few as they are) in Webb don't match this cancel. I still think a ship cancel may be your best bet. Do let us know what you find out.
Peter
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I have just added an update to my post about the 'Russian maritime postmark'.
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see HERE
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-28 16:36:34)
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Due to the large number of posts and consequently lengthy loading times experienced by some, this thread has now been superseded by another, entitled:
Hong Kong: errors, curiosities, postmarks & the unidentified
Please make any new posts to that thread.
Thank you.
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I thought I would start this thread as a focal point for anyone who has any Hong Kong material that needs identification, or has something rather unusual they would like to share.
I certainly need help with some of my stuff. So to start the ball rolling, I would like to find any information, or views about this curiosity:
This is from the 1891 series, SG49 (Scott 62) 50c on 48c; with Chinese surcharge.
Normally, I would have accepted that this could have been part of a cancellation applied to a cover in transit, or in the office of receipt (I have seen similar from other countries' stamps).
This though is mint and very fresh looking.
Could this be a company security marking? If it is, it is unusual in that there is no company name.
Could this have some fiscal purpose? Again, not a standard marking that I've ever seen.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Or offer an opinion?
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
An odd 'partial missing colour' on the 1973 issue. SG 293 (Sc 285) $2 pale green & reddish brown.
Note that the pale pinkish brown is missing from the top of the stamp, down to the line of shoulders. The left hand image is the normal print:
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Another from the same 1973 series, SG294b (Sc 286 unlisted variety), 'Pink omitted'. Seen here with normal on the right. Both are inverted watermark varieties:
I am using a 1997 Scott catalogue, so there is a possibility that my references may be out of date. If you know better, please correct me.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Ningpo,
Thanks for starting this thread. If I may offer an opinion on your QV Scott 62 above with the 4062 marking, I think it seems like some sort of fiscal revenue cancel to me. Perhaps this stamp was lightly applied to something other than paper, and was easily removed with gum intact. I have no proof, just my humble opinion. It just seems like revenue use to me.
Below, I scanned a stamp from my collection with what appears to be an 8659 number and a date cancel below it. I always assumed this stamp was a revenue usage.
Thanks for all of your other Hong Kong posts, I enjoy reading all of them. You have a great Hong Kong collection.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I think we may have to wait some time before an answer is found. There is a slight possibility that these had a 'receipt' type function. I have seen the odd document with similar use.
In 1946, Hong Kong issued locally overprinted 'receipt' stamps, three of which are on GVI low values. The other is on a 1917 'stamp duty' issue:
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Many, many moons ago, I picked these pairs up at a local stamp fair:
As you can see, the bottom perforations are pretty grim. Why would I bother with these, they are after all fairly cheap stamps, when they are in fine condition?
Well firstly, this seemed a strange combination; why would pairs of the three bottom values all be in such a poor state? The 4 cent pair in particular looks like my old hamster had fancied some nesting material; but this is very regular.
Now I know that this is all speculation but I wondered if these were the remainders of a booklet. Well, it so happens that a booklet was issued in 1923 with the SG reference SB7. The booklet contained twelve 1c, twelve 2c and sixteen 4c stamps, with Script CA watermarks.
As with other earlier booklet issues (GB included), these were assembled from normal sheets, sometimes with interleaving and then either stitched or stapled with front and back covers. Blocks of these were then placed in a guillotine and cut. Accuracy was not of paramount importance.
Many stamp issues of Hong Kong were not endowed with large margins, consequently mis-cutting probably occurred more often than not.
Again just speculation on my part: as there were sixteen of the 4c value and not 12, each block entering the guillotine, would have have been uneven in thickness at one end of the block. The blade may not have coped too well, hence the ragged perfs.
So what? Well, a complete SB7 booklet is listed by Gibbons at £ 4,750 ($US 7,340).
It's all academic anyway; none of this can be proved from my examples. Nonetheless, an interesting conversation piece to 'break the ice at parties'.
As you can imagine, I don't get invited to many parties.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Not sure why but "you'll always find me in the kitchen at parties " just came into my head.
Something to do with age I guess!
The top perfs are almost into the stamps as well.
vic
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Now you've got me started. Wasn't that from the 80's? Can't remember who though! I must have been in the kitchen at a party at the time!
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Jona Lewie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ll_Always_Find_Me_in_the_Kitchen_at_Parties
it's in your head all day now.
sorry.vic
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-23 15:45:48)
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Oh thanks a bunch!
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
WARNING: Parental guidance may be required.
If you are at all squeamish, please look away now!The following photograph was printed from an original negative. This image was subsequently used to produce one of the more gruesome postcards one could buy in Hong Kong:
Message on back:
Dear Ada,
Weather glorious, scenery just stunning and such friendly locals, wish you were here.
Love to all
Jim
Only kidding.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Here's a first flight cover from Hong Kong to London, via Penang. The Imperial Airway Service flight left H.K. on 27th March 1936.
Only when I got this home and looked at it a bit closer, I found the 'broken flower' variety; SG126a (Sc140 unlisted):
This hadn't been spotted by the dealer.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
From the 1935 Silver Jubilee issue, SG134b (Scott 148?); short extra flagstaff variety.
This can be seen above the main tower, to the left of the flagstaff. The added bonus is the US President's Line part ship cancellation. Unfortunately, only the 'S.S' portion of the ship's name is visible:
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
From the 1935 Silver Jubilee issue, SG134a (Scott 148?); extra flagstaff variety, on the top left stamp in the block:
Here's a close-up of the variety, to the right of the main flagstaff tower:
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Continuing with the same theme, here's a non listed 'vertical line flaw' variety on SG136 (Sc#150).These line flaws turn up quite regularly on the Silver Jubilee issue; not just on Bradbury Wilkinson printings but all the others too. There are some very strange looking flaws that I have seen on other countries' issues.
Although this probably isn't a constant flaw, I bought this as a more extreme example of that type. Notice a similar but very feint vertical line flaw to its left. This seems to stop below the level of the letter 'H' and then continue beyond the top level of the 'H' to the border.
Just in case this is ever recognised as a constant flaw, I have already chosen a name for it:
The 'balloon string' flaw.
Anybody else got any of these flaws?
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09:01:56pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Not on the HK set, but another one (I think Mauritius; can't recall).
I do have a couple of HK errors, such as the hooked N for the lower denomination KG-VI Silver Wedding, broken Chinese characters, etc.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
In January 1891 the 10 cent postal rate to the UK was reduced to 7 cents. As there was no 7c definitive, a local firm; Noronha & Sons were instructed to overprint remainders of the 10 cent adhesive to reflect the new rate. Similarly, remainders of the 30 cent mauve were to be overprinted to cover the double weight UK postal rate of 14 cents.
Both overprints are found with two distinct varieties; the antique 't' and the small 't'. The antique variety occurs once on a pane and the small variety 3 to 4 times; "depending on the intensity of inking".
A study of these varieties states that the antique 't' occurs in position 1 (the top left hand corner) and the small 't' on adhesive numbers: 21, 46, 47 and 54, due to damage or breakage. It’s a curious coincidence, that all four 'slugs' could exhibit the same characteristic deterioration.
Close-up images of the small 't' varieties in my own collection, seem to confirm that though.
Although Gibbons lists the antique ‘t’ varieties as SG43a and SG44a (Sc#64? and Sc# 65?), the catalogue only makes reference to the small ‘t’ when warning collectors not to confuse the two.
Yang on the other hand actually lists both types of variety for the two provisionals: Yang 48a and b and Yang 49a and b. Unfortunately no image is shown, nor any useful information describing the difference; but then that is a typical vagary of Yang.
Despite the warning in SG, copies of the small 't' sometimes appear for sale as the antique 't' variety.
This is somewhat understandable, as SG prefers to write 50 words to describe the difference, rather than printing a small image of the antique 't' to actually help collectors.
The following two images show a side by side comparison of the normal 7 cent on 10 cent and the antique 't' version:
The next two are side by side images of the antique 't' and the small 't'. Note that the crossbar of the antique 't' accurately bisects the upright and is a chunkier, slightly longer slug:
The following close-up images probably show the differences far better:
NORMALSMALL 't'ANTIQUE 't'
And finally, close-up images of three different copies of the small 't' variety, on both provisional overprint values, with normal:
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
10 Mar 2015
09:10:05am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Ningpo - I'm not scolding you in anyway, but I have a question. I receive emails for every post that goes up on the discussion board and I have received half a dozen (at least) of your latest post. Are you continually editing it and resubmitting (which is totally fine)? Or do I need to contact Tim for help because there's a problem with the SOR email system?
Thank you for your help,
Lisa
DB Moderator
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Yes Lisa, I have been submitting a lot of re-edits. One reason, is the difficulty I have had posting images in side by side format. The preview shows everything fine but when I submit the post, the images don't fit the screen width. I have now worked out the 'formula'.
I have also been plagued with editor issues. Each time I insert any text control characters; bold, underline, colour, heading etc, the editor puts them in the wrong place EVERY TIME.
This also applies to the insertion of images.
In hindsight, perhaps I should have developed my post in the 'test area'; but I was not anticipating all this grief.
In future, I'll do that.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Ningpo said,
"I have also been plagued with editor issues. Each time I insert any text control characters; bold, underline, colour, heading etc, the editor puts them in the wrong place EVERY TIME. "
Me too! In addition, I cannot highlight anything in Discussion board, not visibly at least. I've mentioned this to Tim, but I thought I was the only one. I'm using Safari on an iMac. What are you using, Ningpo?
Bob
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Google Chrome under Windows 7 Pro but an old PC.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
From the 1891 provisional issue, Sg44a (Sc# 65?); 14 cents on 30 cents antique 't' variety. As there was only one print run of this provisional, it is somewhat scarcer than the 7 cents on 10 cents, of which there were two.
What strikes me is the condition of the forme 'cents' on this copy, in particular the 't'. This is far better than the 7c/10c copy I posted earlier. Yet the 14c/30c printing was done after completion of the 7c/10c print runs, where deterioration of the forme 'cents' was supposedly progressive. Perhaps even more remarkable, is the fact that the same formes had previously been used on the provisional overprints of 1880: 5c/18c, 5c/8c, 10c/12c, 10c/16c and 10c/24c.
One factor that seems to have affected the quality of the 7 cent on 10 cent, is the 'resistance' of the green ink to the black, whereas the 30 cent mauve absorbed the ink much better.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
cocollectibles wrote:
"I do have a couple of HK errors, such as the hooked N for the lower denomination KG-VI Silver Wedding, broken Chinese characters, etc."
Peter, that 'hooked N' (or toe to N) you have; is that by any chance in a block of four?
Also, which broken Chinese characters are you referring to? The KGV 4c carmine-rose (SG120b) Sc#133 ?
By the way, assuming that you use Scott catalogues, are all these varieties that I refer to actually listed somewhere? The trouble is I only have a Scott Standard Postage Stamp Cataogue Vol.1B from 1997, which lists absolutely nothing in the way of varieties.
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06:10:45am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Scott is rubbish when it comes to typing these varieties for GB and BC stamps. The specialized catalogue has some, but nothing at the level that Gibbons and Yang give.
I don't specifically collect these errors, so I only have a couple of them.
The toe on the N is on a single stamp.
The broken Chinese character is on a 15c KG-VI, as shown below.
I also have KG-V 1c with the broken crown error and 25c broken flower on the right stamp in the pair, as below.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Those look like nice copies Peter. The broken crown variety in particular looks surprisingly clean and tone free.
While I'm on the subject of the 7c/10c and 14c/30c provisionals, perhaps an introduction to a forgery might prove useful. This is a screen-shot of something I prepared for an eBay buyer, who had made a bad choice and bought the RH stamp and paid too much. This was in the days when one could identify buyers and contact them through the message system.
It was listed as genuine. To a casual collector, the overprint looks quite similar to the illustrations in catalogues and the subtle differences might be completely overlooked.
As you can see in the image below, I pointed out some of the differences but stopped short to avoid labeling a bird's nest; because every single slug is actually wrong.
This I think illustrates the caution that is needed when buying ANY overprint. First study known genuine copies and try to find out any history of overprint forgery.
Buying off sites such as eBay, Ebid, Delcampe etc is at times risky, unless you are very familiar with the material. After all, most sellers are not full time dealers and don't necessarily know much, if anything about their wares. Mind you, some auction houses don't make a better fist of things either.
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05:09:04pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I would love to see HK Forgeries as a topic for an article on its own. Would you consider writing one for SOR? I've never done one so I can't tell you what is involved, but I'm sure it is well explained. I have Ming Tsang's book on forgeries but I'm thinking something practical or about the more commonly found varieties.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Peter, I think that is an excellent idea in principle. It's just that I don't think I am qualified enough to do it.
The main reason being; you have the very reference book that I don't have. I have tried to find one without success.
Although I have a fair number of forgeries in my collection (including Spiro), some are attributed to individuals like: Panelli, Sartory and Zechmeyer. These and others I have, I can't properly identify without the appropriate reference material. So I am likely to make a pig's ear of any write-up.
Until I can get hold of such a reference book, I may just have to bumble along hoping that somebody out there (besides your good self) in the StampoRama ether might put me right. I do wish someone else out there would contribute something, to at least break up my monotonous tone.
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Approvals
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
The following is a link to website with the book you have not got.
http://www.abebooks.com/Hong-Kong-Forgeries-Stamps-MING-TSANG/202487837/bd
Vic
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-03-12 20:02:11)
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Thanks very much for the link Vic, just a had a quick look at it. So this works out at around £26 plus £5 postage for me in the UK.
Perhaps Peter, or anyone else who owns a copy could advise me on how comprehensive the book is.
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07:06:15pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
If you PM me your private email address, I will scan the table of contents and send that to you as a PDF file. For copyright reasons, obviously I cannot send scans of the book (aside from the fact it is over 140 pages!).
I have much in the way of HK philatelic literature but I can't do justice to any of it until I stop this time wasting work and career stuff. It gets in the way of my stamp enjoyment!! Maybe in a couple of years, when I retire, I can devote more time to these.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Ningpo,
I love all of your Hong Kong posts. I also am busy with work and family. If I was retired, I would post something everyday in reply to your posts. Your SOR threads are my oasis in the middle of my chaotic work day. I very much appreciate your efforts.
I also own a copy of Ming Tsang's book on forgeries, and I would recommend it as part of your Hong Kong reference library. The pictures are not the greatest, but it does show the pricelists the forgers openly advertised with to stamp dealers, and a picture of a sheet of their QV "facsimiles."
I found this stamp in my collection. This is from my 1935 Silver Jubilee MNH set. Thanks to you, I discovered it has a distinct line from the castle up to between the H and O.
I hope you can see it in this scan. I never even knew I had this "oddity" in my collection! Keep on posting, Ningo, I read and reread every single one on Hong Kong.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Peter, thank you for your kind offer. That would help greatly. I'll send you my details. Funny you mention Hong Kong literature; tonight I failed on three counts to get some extra books on eBay. I won one, which was the bottom of my list and is more a curiosity: Hong Kong Descriptive Catalogue of Stamps & Cards - Juan Mencarini, printed in 1898. I seem to fail more so on literature than anything else.
Linus, thank you for your enthusiasm. I do hope you get the opportunity to post more; even if it's just to look at your avatar.
Thanks too for the recommendation.
That line flaw on your Jubilee is only about two clicks away from the one I listed; very similar. You should try and get these images posted up here nice and big. I'm sure everyone prefers that. By now you probably realise that I don't post an awful lot without an image of some sort; many in yer face. To me, this hobby of ours is a visual one.
nI1947 for example, has just posted something I have never seen before; a 96 cent grey-black Sperati forgery. So this is really encouraging.
It would be great to think that these Hong Kong threads could become a good source of reference as they develop.
I think of it this way; not every collector of this sort of stuff can afford to buy Hong Kong reference books. Some of them are very expensive, or indeed very difficult to get hold of. If just a few of us have these books amongst us, we can make the information available to a wider audience. This in conjunction with images of actual stamps etc. might encourage others to look more closely at their collection and post on here as well.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Another variation of SG43 (SC#64); a double on the overprint. However, this may very well be bogus:
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Anyone got any ideas about this cancel - no one at the Hong Kong Study Circle can ID it - so hopefully someone here will be able to
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05:00:31pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
The Hong Kong Study Circle is the definitive group for Hong Kong issues, including foreign cancels on HK stamps. I checked references these folks know well, such as Webb and Scamp & Fine (arrival cancels) but could not find anything resembling the 22 bar red cancel with the capital A. I would suspect a ship cancel or company cancel, or private cancel of some kind. A nice curiosity nonetheless.
Peter
Edit: A close but no cigar finding: In Scamp & Fine "Hong Kong Arrival Markings" there is an entry under Columbo, Ceylon:
"A" in upright oval of killer bars. Unfortunately, it notes these types have 3 or 4 bards below the A.
The number of bars doesn't match your cancel, unfortunately.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Welcome WillLack.
That's a very striking specimen you have there. I have never seen that before, even in the many auction catalogues I've trawled through.
An unrecorded Straits Settlements marking?
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
It was bought from a French dealer at Stampex some time ago - and it was in a collection he broke up from an old guy who had died and the estate sold it to him
I have scanned ebay and lots of on line auctions for something similar - absolutely nothing comparable.... its driving me mad to know what where when and how.... ugh!
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
You will have to be very patient with these type of markings. I have been collecting Hong Kong for about twenty five years and haven't seen one. I too have a few strange ones that aren't identified. Just occasionally, information can pop up from completely unrelated sources.
It might be worth looking for old H.K. related auction catalogues, as these can sometimes illustrate material that is not documented in standard reference books.
For example, I once found in a dealer's stock an unused Qv 5c pale blue with no watermark. I couldn't explain it and the dealer would not sell it, until he found out what it was.
This remained a mystery to me for twenty years until I found this in a recently bought, 2004 auction catalogue (Lot no. 43):
Although the one I found wasn't the same colour as those shown, it did explain that a number of different colour proofs were printed for selection by the postal authorities.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
A big welcome to new member WillLack. I also collect the same things that you collect and love your avatar, as I have never seen anything quite like it before. On your introduction, William, on another thread, you mentioned your search for Hong Kong arrival markings. I have scanned in some that I have been fortunate to acquire over the years. Feel free to use these scans of stamps from my collecton any way you want, and that goes for all my scans on Stamporama to anyone reading this post. Enjoy all!
Linus
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada:
Tacoma, Washington, USA
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01:28:19pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Those are terrific arrival markings! I've never seen one from Tacoma, WA. I like that you have the full duplex cancel on pairs and blocks too.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I love finding river steam boat cancels on Hong Kong stamps. Usually you find partial cancels on single stamps, but I hit the jackpot when an approval dealer sent me this block in the mail. This "FROM STEAMER BOX" cancellation is a variation as compared to the "Type F" pictured on page 371 of the reference book "The Philatelic and Postal History of Hong Kong and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by F.W. Webb. Notice my block's cancel has a number 24 with a vertical line to the right of it not seen in the Type F as pictured by Webb. Although Webb states in his book that the use of Steamer Boxes aboard ships from Hong Kong to Swatow does not appear to have been officially authorized. I love Hong Kong used blocks, and this is one of the "gems" in my HK collection. I was very lucky to acquire it. Enjoy!
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I have a number of HK cancelled abroad - my new particular interest of collecting now. Here are a couple of my favourite items
Mauritius cancel on HK
Colombo, Ceylon
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04:49:07pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Mauritius! Wow! Terrific find! Very difficult to get. Scamp and Fine note that this was mentioned in Webb, but without further explanation or image.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
07 May 2015
06:59:57am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
This is a great thread!
I have a potential Scott 60C I found in a collection but the notes state that it requires expertization. Can someone here save me a submission if there is some glaring example of it being fake?
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02:49:32pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Can you post a larger scan (about 400px) with better definition.
From this vantage there are some possible issues with it.
Thank you
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Of course, the first thing to check is to see if the postmark is ABOVE the overprint.
I don't know all the overprint settings, but the font is noticeably different from the ones I've seen for the S. O. overprints.
Here is a sample link (see leftmost and specifically the rightmost stamp):
Stamp Office and Stamp Duty overprints
In the English, the "O" appears different in shape and position.
In the Chinese, note the differences in slope of certain slightly "uphill" strokes in comparison to the horizontal strokes. In your stamp, some of them appear parallel rather than slightly angled. For example, in the bottom left character, examine the top stroke of the left half and right half of that character. The right top is usually more sloped compared to the left top. On your stamp, they appear to be at roughly the same slope.
But again, I don't know if there were different settings.
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05:33:32pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Here are 3 , 2 are certified, the other?
Compared to your sample
As KHJ noted the slope of the bottom left letters is different
The E shaped letter does not touch the symbol on the right which also has no slope on the long leg.
The main feature is the closed loops on the S, yours are open.
Also the S is taller than the O but yours seems much taller
I personally have not spent much (any time) on this country but I do have an extensive library of genuines and fakes ... so maybe if time permits...
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
07 May 2015
10:10:35pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Thanks for all the responses. I will upload a higher resolution image this weekend.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
10 May 2015
07:50:30am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
As promised - Here is a 600 dpi scan. It looks to me like the overprint is on top of the cancel especially at the top of the "S" and on top of the "G" in in Hong.
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08:26:53am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Appears like the overprint is on top of the cancellation - more noticeable on top S
The bottom loop of the S is too open.
The bottom left symbol has several issues, the letters joining, the top slopes in the wrong direction & the inclination.
The S is too large
IMO this one is a filler.
Edited: Bobstamp may be correct on the overprint, the larger scan shows a possible difference but the key is the lettering does not match any certified copies
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
10 May 2015
09:11:35am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I have to agree..
Thanks everyone!!!
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Wait! I want to stir the pot too!
I recently had suspicions about the authenticity of the overprint on a U.S. stamp franking a Philippine-American War cover; In that case, it's simply impossible to tell if the overprint is under or above the cancellation. Bob's Hong Kong stamp, however, seems unambiguous, at least as far as the "layering" of the stamp, the overprint, and the cancellation go. Look at this enlargement of the Chinese ideogram at the bottom right corner:
It's obviously not a high-res image, but to my eyes the overprint is beneath the cancellation, not above it.The arc of the cancellation has blurred the overprint, at least to my eye. It would perhaps be useful to see a high-res image of just the lower-right ideogram.
Bob
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
This is the latest addition to my ‘treaty port’ collection; a block of six (1912-1921 KGV) SG101 two cent definitives. It has been cancelled with a Webb type ‘M’ double ring postmark of British Post Office Hankow.
According to Webb, the ‘M’ type postmark is not uncommon; however having collected for over 25 years, I have only two examples. In fact, it was mainly used in 1916, on un-overprinted definitives (although examples exist up to July 1917). It continued to be used on Hong Kong overprinted China definitives until 1922, when the office closed.
This had been listed before but I passed on it, as it was quite highly priced. However, it was listed again having not been sold.
Why did I change my mind? There were three factors that persuaded me to bid on this:
Firstly, I realised that I did not have a complete strike in my collection and this was the first block I had seen.
Secondly, the date of the postmark; February 19th 1916, is the earliest date recorded by Webb.
Thirdly, the peculiar shape of perforations at the bottom: in a previous post on this thread I showed examples of three mint pairs of the 1 cent, 2 cent and 4 cent, with similar perforations. I surmised that these may have been remnants of a booklet.
The seller of this block actually made the same observation in his item description. So I appear not to be alone in this respect. However, in this instance the definitive is an earlier (Multiple Crown CA) issue, this may have come from the 1912 booklet listed as SB6. This too contained panes of twelve 1 cent, twelve 2 cent and sixteen 4 cent definitives.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Nice block, any idea about the purple cancel at the bottom?
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I bought this recently and missed out on the clearer strike - Military Station No.1 Philippines Mil Sta. No.1 Manila
This is a great link to US/Philippine cancels
http://www.collectorsclubchicago.org/philippines.php
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-14 11:48:37)
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
From eBay seller Momenstamps perchance? This looks like one I viewed a few days ago but couldn't make it out. This has a 'Pacific' look to it to me.
He had a 5c on 18c with an early Manila cancel that caught my eye too. In the past he has had a lot of desirable material.
Incidentally Will, I stumbled upon your posting (your avatar here) on Pinterest. There are some stunning specimens pinned on that site too.
Edit:
The purple strike on my block is too indistinct to identify (in fact there is a second 'ghosting' above it). However this resembles a Japanese type cancel. There is an outside chance this might be a Lloyd Austrico ship's cancel but this may be outside the date of usage.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Sorry Will, I see you had already worked out the 10 cent to be a US Philippines cancel. Momenstamps had a number of curious chequerboard cancels which mainly seemed to have been applied over company cachets. I'm a bit dubious about those. Perhaps you know something about them?
I'll see if I can post one or two of them.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Here are two with Holiday, Wise & Co company cachets. In fact the second isn't a chequerboard pattern but more of a long grid. These don't look like postal markings to me but more resemble non-attributable 'stray letter' killers.
There were other chequerboard types as well but again I'm not sure about them either. However, I stand to be corrected.
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05:43:24pm
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
WillLack-I searched just the underlying cancel & nothing close came up.
Just some barred ovals with a single letter.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
yes the Manila cancel was striking and went for more than I bid - at the last moment but this item I bought arrived today from Momen etc nice piece
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
This is the Manila piece went for $121.58 - ugh just too slow
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
This is another gem from my foreign arrival cancel collection
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
That's a lovely strike. I think Webb mentions Calcutta as an example of arrival markings but does not show any examples.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Dead Letter office - Singapore
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09:00:39am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I'm pretty sure this is a changeling but I'll post it here anyways.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Just purchased this gem of an arrival cancel - Salisbury, Rhodesia ( what is now called Harare, Zimbabwe). This must be a very unusual and uncommon mark on a HK stamp. It would have been fascinating to know the route and the contents and receipent? It is end of the Boer War date wise - was it to a soldier, a Chinese worker or to a gold trader? who knows...
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Just scanned this in to try to decipher the postmark. Well I'm none the wiser. As Roman numerals were used for the month, the date would be on three lines. This is probably from the Crown CA 1882-96 issue, but there's too much paper on the back to confirm (if not it would be the earlier issue of 1880):
Reading clockwise from the top:
the first fully visible 'character' is two vertical strokes with the feint outline of a top bar.
the second is a P
the third is a reversed N
the fourth is an M
the fifth looks like an incomplete reversed D
the sixth maybe an E or F
then a period perhaps
then what looks like a G rotated 90°clockwise
then a period.
The remainder I won't even guess at apart from the character right at the perf edge; which resembles a K
Here it is again rotated 90°:
Anybody got any ideas? Cyrillic Russian perhaps?
Update
After a little bit of reading, I think I can translate the first few characters that I listed. I have made an assumption that the fifth character (reversed D) is probably just a distorted letter O, as any other character resembling it would make no phonetic sense. The sixth character is the letter E, as our letter F resembles this:¢ in Cyrillic (but with a complete circle and serifed vertical stroke).
So, I've come up with P R I M O Je, where the Je would seem to be phonetically longer, as in Jay (or maybe Jeh).
This may be the ships name (or part thereof) as numerous Russian maritime postmarks have the name in that portion of the date stamp.
Again, based on many other postmarks (not just Russian), the remainder of the characters down to the bottom perfs are probably read upwards and relate perhaps to the shipping line, or route, or home port.
I spent an age browsing hundreds of images relating to Russian maritime markings but found nothing.
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04:50:50am
re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Cyrillic Russian was my guess, with the backward N especially. I checked Webb and Scamp and Fine's "HK Arrival Markings" and they do reference both an Odessa mail cancel as well as Russian ship cancels. But the images (few as they are) in Webb don't match this cancel. I still think a ship cancel may be your best bet. Do let us know what you find out.
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
I have just added an update to my post about the 'Russian maritime postmark'.
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
see HERE
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-28 16:36:34)
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re: Hong Kong: errors, curiosities and the unidentified. (Thread Closed)
Due to the large number of posts and consequently lengthy loading times experienced by some, this thread has now been superseded by another, entitled:
Hong Kong: errors, curiosities, postmarks & the unidentified
Please make any new posts to that thread.
Thank you.
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