Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Hi,I do not know much about precancels and I am assuming these are all typical. The questions I have have to do with the Franklin 1 cent (#632) which is unused. What is the value of this unused precancel? Also, what is the perforations perforation initials are BFG) as well as the precancel on the Roosevelt 5 cent (#637)? Lastly, regarding the Washington 4 cent (#709) is this a machine precancel with the wavy lines? Thanks for any information you can provide.
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Everything you have shown is a bureau precancel except the 4c Washington stamps. If you are interested in precancels, you can get the Precancel Stamp Society Catalog of United States Bureau Precancels from the Precancel Stamp Society. Mine is 10 years old, but there is no mention of a bureau precancel like that from Reading PA.
Bureau precancels are those provided by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and they are a special area of collection. Someone else would have to tell you more about the Reading cancel.
The "holes" in the 5c stamp are called perfins. These are holes punched into the stamps to denote who they belong to. They can be found on precanceled stamps and non-precanceled stamps. They were used by companies to deter theft. If you worked for company XYZ and mailed your electric bill using a stamp with a perfin of XYZ, you were immediately known to have stolen that stamp.
Lars
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By definition, there is no such thing as a "used" pre-cancelled stamp. The cancellation itself renders the stamp used, whether it was actually used to pay postage. The same is true of postage due stamps, which were sometimes cancelled at the post office counter and given to the client rather than stuck on the envelope or parcel on which payment was due.
Both pre-cancelled and cancelled postage due stamps with gum are considered to be used.
Bob
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Now that I look at that 1c block of 4 more closely, I doubt that is a Bureau precancel. Perhaps someone else can shed some light.
Lars
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"By definition, there is no such thing as a "used" pre-cancelled stamp."
True, but some collectors prefer precancels with gum. Before August 1967, it was against postal regulations to sell precancels with gum to collectors, so those items often sell for a premium.
Lars
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The Washington 4 cent block of four (Scott #709) is not a pre-cancel. It is a roller cancel applied mostly to parcels.
One thing that often gets easily mis-identified as a pre-cancel is what is called "box cancel". It is a rubber stamped cancellation that has the city and state inside the outline of a box. These cancels are longer and of a different font than pre-cancels.
Also, as you obtain pre-cancelled stamps, you'll start finding pre-cancels that are inverted (upside down). These usually are fairly common.
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Here is a link to a 54 page online article about cancellations. Pre-cancels are towards the end, but it does show a large number of cancel types from around the world. It does not show the regular cancel types of roller cancels and box cancels, however.
http://www.hamiltonphilatelic.org/presentations/postmarks.pdf
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I tried to find a nice example of a box cancel. There were only a couple. This one from an eBay item is a good example. The box cancel was applied over the postage due stamp. Just remember that it is not a pre-cancel. There are pre-cancels of postage due stamps, by the way.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/US-BLUE-MOUND-KANSAS-BOX-CANCEL-ON-POSTAGE-DUE-STAMP-ON-SHEFFIELD-IL-COVER-/121590438159
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Hi bemianbill;
Hi and welcome to our little cyber stamp club.
To answer your question about value, they are worth whatever they will sell for. If you list
them and they sit for several years they are not worth that much. If they sell 15 minutes
after you listed they probably are worth more. Not very helpful huh?
My best suggestion is to look at a large selling place like FeeBay and observe closed auc-
tions. Ones that close unsold are stamps that either are not very popular to collect like
sand dunes junk, or are priced too high. However that is not a hard and fast rule. How-
ever at least you can get a feel for some prices realized.
Auction lots of single stamps tend to sell for more because the buyer is trying to fill the last
missing stamp in a set or on a album page. Lots of stamps 1,000 or more tend to sell for
less and usually have duplication, damaged material, or other issues that make them less
attractive to buyers.
My own experience with closed lots of Precancels on FeeBay was very mixed and confusing.
I guess for this specialized area Larsdog is correct that you should obtain a copy of the
Precancel Stamp Society Catalog, because there is no sense to how these sell. Just a very
specialized area that without enough knowledge it is very difficult to judge value.
Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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07:47:14pm
As I understand it, you have to have a mailer's permit to use modern precancels, If you have a mailer's permit, can you likewise use older, unused bureau precancels?
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You have a really nice array of precancels. Finding blocks is unusual and should bring a premium. I would say the last two items on your top row aren't bureau precancels, but locals done by the named post office. I believe the Franklins on the end are cancelled "East Stroudsburg" in PA. Small post offices are worth more (generally) than larger cities. If I had to make a wager, I'd say that one, and the strip of Franklin coils at the bottom (also locals) are the most valuable. The locals from Reading, PA may also be good since that's a small town also.
Precancels are like any other area of collecting. Unless you know the 'hot' items, you could lose. Identical stamps to the untrained eye can greatly vary in value. There are a few key bureau precancels that were issued in very small quantities that are worth hundreds.
Oh, the perfin you have is probably BF Goodrich.
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"As I understand it, you have to have a mailer's permit to use modern precancels, If you have a mailer's permit, can you likewise use older, unused bureau precancels? "
Yes, you CAN, because I've done it. Whether or not I SHOULD have been able to, I'm not sure, but my understanding is that precancels with gum could not be SOLD to collectors until August 1967. After that date, any precancel could be used by someone with a permit.
Permits are easy to get and free for philatelic purposes. I dispose of all my unneeded precancels and service inscribed stamps in that way.
Lars
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I don't think there'd be many, if any, postal clerks who would know if older pre-cancels are valid for postage or not. Me, I'm not sure. I never read anything in the USPS manual that says that they are not valid. However, that manual is a morass of rules that can easily be missed or misinterpreted as we often see when we try to post something.
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yes, all precancels can be used for first class postage if accompanied by form 3615 that has been previously registered at the PO in which it's being used.
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I believe that the precancels would also need to be used only from the city printed on them. That was the intent of precancels to begin with, to record the city of mailing without the added step of adding cancellations.
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"yes, all precancels can be used for first class postage if accompanied by form 3615 that has been previously registered at the PO in which it's being used. "
Sort of. Yes, you have to present it at the window at the PO where you have the permit and you must present the permit if asked. You have to mark the mailpiece with your permit number and class of service. You do NOT have to use it for first class mail (you just can't use it for bulk/presort/non-profit). You could use precanceled and or service inscribed stamps for media mail or priority mail if you wish. You just have to indicate class of service on the cover.
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"I believe that the precancels would also need to be used only from the city printed on them. That was the intent of precancels to begin with, to record the city of mailing without the added step of adding cancellations."
I don't think so. When you are using a permit to dispose of precanceled stamps for standard service (first class, media mail, priority), it doesn't matter where they were precanceled.
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That is not quite correct on the usage of pre-canceled stamps. According to the USPS:
Precanceled stamps are available for:
Presorted First-Class Mail
Standard Mail
Nonprofit Standard Mail
Precanceled stamps must be placed in the upper right corner of the mailpiece. If you’re using precanceled stamps on a flat (large envelope), place the stamp in the upper right of the delivery address. Precanceled stamps cannot be used on reusable containers such as boxes or tubes.
You must place a complete domestic return address in the upper left corner of the envelope. To the left of the stamps, you must state the type of service the intended use of the pre-canceled stamps are for. Package mail services: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail are not available services when using pre-canceled stamps (DMM 604.3.0). If a clerk is allowing those services, just understand that the clerk is probably not aware of the rules, but another clerk who does know the rules may reject your item.
It is not necessary to include your permit number, but it certainly doesn't hurt to include it. The easiest marking is "FIRST CLASS MAILER PERMIT ####" as there really is no other mail service that collectors would normally use.
You must present the mail piece to a clerk at the post office where the permit was issued. do NOT place the mailpiece in a collection box. It will be rejected and returned to you.
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"Package mail services: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail are not available services when using pre-canceled stamps (DMM 604.3.0)."
Where do you see that in DMM 604.3.0?
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3.1.2 Use of Precanceled Stamps
Precanceled postage is an optional postage payment method for mailings at Presorted and automation First-Class Mail prices and at all Standard Mail prices.
3.1.3 Prohibited Use of Precanceled Stamps
Precanceled postage stamps may not be used on any reusable mailing containers, such as boxes, cases, or bags.
Also:
Overview (604.3.0)
Use of precanceled stamps is an optional payment method for mailings at Presorted and automation First-Class Mail and all Standard Mail prices. Precanceled stamps may not be used with any Package Services pieces. This payment method requires the stamps to be affixed to each piece.
Package mail services are: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail.
The information I posted is current as of March 2, 2015.
http://pe.usps.com/text/qsg300/Q604b.htm
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Hi Everyone;
Stamps as issued at the post office window and have un-molested gum, are unused period.
They were issued that way!
Just like stamps with a straight edge from booklet panes, they are not damaged because
they were issued that way! Even tho they tend to sell for less, does not make them damaged,
just less desirable.
Sorry bobstamp, just my two cents worth....
TuskenRaider
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Michael,
I'm looking directly at DMM 604:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/604.htm#xd_604_3_1_8
Section 3.5 is what I was going by:
"3.5 Stamp Collectors
Subject to USPS policy in 608.4.0, precanceled postage may be bought for philatelic purposes as well as postage payment. A stamp collector may mail matter bearing precanceled postage if the collector has a permit to use precanceled postage at the Post Office where the mail is presented. "
To me, that carves out an exception to collectors to use their precanceled stamps where any other stamp could be used. I don't see any restriction in the DMM for collectors.
I see in the Quick Service Guide that precanceled stamps can't be used for package services, but I read that to mean that traditional use of precanceled stamps can't be used as such. The philatelic exception trumps that as I read it.
Does USPS have a place where they publish rules interpretations?
Lars
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I don't see it that way. Earlier sections state what and how pre-canceled stamps may be used and for what services. Exceptions would have to be in those sections.
The section you refer to permitting use of pre-canceled stamps by stamp collectors makes no exception to how and for what services pre-canceled stamps may be used. It makes an exception permitting stamp collectors to purchase and use the stamps.
The permit authorizing one to use pre-canceled use is subject to the rules governing use of pre-canceled stamps.
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10:30:12pm
Hi,
I do not know much about precancels and I am assuming these are all typical. The questions I have have to do with the Franklin 1 cent (#632) which is unused. What is the value of this unused precancel? Also, what is the perforations perforation initials are BFG) as well as the precancel on the Roosevelt 5 cent (#637)? Lastly, regarding the Washington 4 cent (#709) is this a machine precancel with the wavy lines? Thanks for any information you can provide.
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re: Precancel information
Everything you have shown is a bureau precancel except the 4c Washington stamps. If you are interested in precancels, you can get the Precancel Stamp Society Catalog of United States Bureau Precancels from the Precancel Stamp Society. Mine is 10 years old, but there is no mention of a bureau precancel like that from Reading PA.
Bureau precancels are those provided by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and they are a special area of collection. Someone else would have to tell you more about the Reading cancel.
The "holes" in the 5c stamp are called perfins. These are holes punched into the stamps to denote who they belong to. They can be found on precanceled stamps and non-precanceled stamps. They were used by companies to deter theft. If you worked for company XYZ and mailed your electric bill using a stamp with a perfin of XYZ, you were immediately known to have stolen that stamp.
Lars
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re: Precancel information
By definition, there is no such thing as a "used" pre-cancelled stamp. The cancellation itself renders the stamp used, whether it was actually used to pay postage. The same is true of postage due stamps, which were sometimes cancelled at the post office counter and given to the client rather than stuck on the envelope or parcel on which payment was due.
Both pre-cancelled and cancelled postage due stamps with gum are considered to be used.
Bob
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re: Precancel information
Now that I look at that 1c block of 4 more closely, I doubt that is a Bureau precancel. Perhaps someone else can shed some light.
Lars
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re: Precancel information
"By definition, there is no such thing as a "used" pre-cancelled stamp."
True, but some collectors prefer precancels with gum. Before August 1967, it was against postal regulations to sell precancels with gum to collectors, so those items often sell for a premium.
Lars
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12:05:21am
re: Precancel information
The Washington 4 cent block of four (Scott #709) is not a pre-cancel. It is a roller cancel applied mostly to parcels.
One thing that often gets easily mis-identified as a pre-cancel is what is called "box cancel". It is a rubber stamped cancellation that has the city and state inside the outline of a box. These cancels are longer and of a different font than pre-cancels.
Also, as you obtain pre-cancelled stamps, you'll start finding pre-cancels that are inverted (upside down). These usually are fairly common.
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12:10:09am
re: Precancel information
Here is a link to a 54 page online article about cancellations. Pre-cancels are towards the end, but it does show a large number of cancel types from around the world. It does not show the regular cancel types of roller cancels and box cancels, however.
http://www.hamiltonphilatelic.org/presentations/postmarks.pdf
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12:15:54am
re: Precancel information
I tried to find a nice example of a box cancel. There were only a couple. This one from an eBay item is a good example. The box cancel was applied over the postage due stamp. Just remember that it is not a pre-cancel. There are pre-cancels of postage due stamps, by the way.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/US-BLUE-MOUND-KANSAS-BOX-CANCEL-ON-POSTAGE-DUE-STAMP-ON-SHEFFIELD-IL-COVER-/121590438159
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re: Precancel information
Hi bemianbill;
Hi and welcome to our little cyber stamp club.
To answer your question about value, they are worth whatever they will sell for. If you list
them and they sit for several years they are not worth that much. If they sell 15 minutes
after you listed they probably are worth more. Not very helpful huh?
My best suggestion is to look at a large selling place like FeeBay and observe closed auc-
tions. Ones that close unsold are stamps that either are not very popular to collect like
sand dunes junk, or are priced too high. However that is not a hard and fast rule. How-
ever at least you can get a feel for some prices realized.
Auction lots of single stamps tend to sell for more because the buyer is trying to fill the last
missing stamp in a set or on a album page. Lots of stamps 1,000 or more tend to sell for
less and usually have duplication, damaged material, or other issues that make them less
attractive to buyers.
My own experience with closed lots of Precancels on FeeBay was very mixed and confusing.
I guess for this specialized area Larsdog is correct that you should obtain a copy of the
Precancel Stamp Society Catalog, because there is no sense to how these sell. Just a very
specialized area that without enough knowledge it is very difficult to judge value.
Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
02 Apr 2015
07:47:14pm
re: Precancel information
As I understand it, you have to have a mailer's permit to use modern precancels, If you have a mailer's permit, can you likewise use older, unused bureau precancels?
Login to Like
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re: Precancel information
You have a really nice array of precancels. Finding blocks is unusual and should bring a premium. I would say the last two items on your top row aren't bureau precancels, but locals done by the named post office. I believe the Franklins on the end are cancelled "East Stroudsburg" in PA. Small post offices are worth more (generally) than larger cities. If I had to make a wager, I'd say that one, and the strip of Franklin coils at the bottom (also locals) are the most valuable. The locals from Reading, PA may also be good since that's a small town also.
Precancels are like any other area of collecting. Unless you know the 'hot' items, you could lose. Identical stamps to the untrained eye can greatly vary in value. There are a few key bureau precancels that were issued in very small quantities that are worth hundreds.
Oh, the perfin you have is probably BF Goodrich.
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re: Precancel information
"As I understand it, you have to have a mailer's permit to use modern precancels, If you have a mailer's permit, can you likewise use older, unused bureau precancels? "
Yes, you CAN, because I've done it. Whether or not I SHOULD have been able to, I'm not sure, but my understanding is that precancels with gum could not be SOLD to collectors until August 1967. After that date, any precancel could be used by someone with a permit.
Permits are easy to get and free for philatelic purposes. I dispose of all my unneeded precancels and service inscribed stamps in that way.
Lars
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02:25:53am
re: Precancel information
I don't think there'd be many, if any, postal clerks who would know if older pre-cancels are valid for postage or not. Me, I'm not sure. I never read anything in the USPS manual that says that they are not valid. However, that manual is a morass of rules that can easily be missed or misinterpreted as we often see when we try to post something.
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re: Precancel information
yes, all precancels can be used for first class postage if accompanied by form 3615 that has been previously registered at the PO in which it's being used.
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re: Precancel information
I believe that the precancels would also need to be used only from the city printed on them. That was the intent of precancels to begin with, to record the city of mailing without the added step of adding cancellations.
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re: Precancel information
"yes, all precancels can be used for first class postage if accompanied by form 3615 that has been previously registered at the PO in which it's being used. "
Sort of. Yes, you have to present it at the window at the PO where you have the permit and you must present the permit if asked. You have to mark the mailpiece with your permit number and class of service. You do NOT have to use it for first class mail (you just can't use it for bulk/presort/non-profit). You could use precanceled and or service inscribed stamps for media mail or priority mail if you wish. You just have to indicate class of service on the cover.
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re: Precancel information
"I believe that the precancels would also need to be used only from the city printed on them. That was the intent of precancels to begin with, to record the city of mailing without the added step of adding cancellations."
I don't think so. When you are using a permit to dispose of precanceled stamps for standard service (first class, media mail, priority), it doesn't matter where they were precanceled.
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01:06:53am
re: Precancel information
That is not quite correct on the usage of pre-canceled stamps. According to the USPS:
Precanceled stamps are available for:
Presorted First-Class Mail
Standard Mail
Nonprofit Standard Mail
Precanceled stamps must be placed in the upper right corner of the mailpiece. If you’re using precanceled stamps on a flat (large envelope), place the stamp in the upper right of the delivery address. Precanceled stamps cannot be used on reusable containers such as boxes or tubes.
You must place a complete domestic return address in the upper left corner of the envelope. To the left of the stamps, you must state the type of service the intended use of the pre-canceled stamps are for. Package mail services: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail are not available services when using pre-canceled stamps (DMM 604.3.0). If a clerk is allowing those services, just understand that the clerk is probably not aware of the rules, but another clerk who does know the rules may reject your item.
It is not necessary to include your permit number, but it certainly doesn't hurt to include it. The easiest marking is "FIRST CLASS MAILER PERMIT ####" as there really is no other mail service that collectors would normally use.
You must present the mail piece to a clerk at the post office where the permit was issued. do NOT place the mailpiece in a collection box. It will be rejected and returned to you.
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re: Precancel information
"Package mail services: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail are not available services when using pre-canceled stamps (DMM 604.3.0)."
Where do you see that in DMM 604.3.0?
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10:58:22pm
re: Precancel information
3.1.2 Use of Precanceled Stamps
Precanceled postage is an optional postage payment method for mailings at Presorted and automation First-Class Mail prices and at all Standard Mail prices.
3.1.3 Prohibited Use of Precanceled Stamps
Precanceled postage stamps may not be used on any reusable mailing containers, such as boxes, cases, or bags.
Also:
Overview (604.3.0)
Use of precanceled stamps is an optional payment method for mailings at Presorted and automation First-Class Mail and all Standard Mail prices. Precanceled stamps may not be used with any Package Services pieces. This payment method requires the stamps to be affixed to each piece.
Package mail services are: media mail, parcel post, library mail, priority and express mail.
The information I posted is current as of March 2, 2015.
http://pe.usps.com/text/qsg300/Q604b.htm
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re: Precancel information
Hi Everyone;
Stamps as issued at the post office window and have un-molested gum, are unused period.
They were issued that way!
Just like stamps with a straight edge from booklet panes, they are not damaged because
they were issued that way! Even tho they tend to sell for less, does not make them damaged,
just less desirable.
Sorry bobstamp, just my two cents worth....
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
re: Precancel information
Michael,
I'm looking directly at DMM 604:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/604.htm#xd_604_3_1_8
Section 3.5 is what I was going by:
"3.5 Stamp Collectors
Subject to USPS policy in 608.4.0, precanceled postage may be bought for philatelic purposes as well as postage payment. A stamp collector may mail matter bearing precanceled postage if the collector has a permit to use precanceled postage at the Post Office where the mail is presented. "
To me, that carves out an exception to collectors to use their precanceled stamps where any other stamp could be used. I don't see any restriction in the DMM for collectors.
I see in the Quick Service Guide that precanceled stamps can't be used for package services, but I read that to mean that traditional use of precanceled stamps can't be used as such. The philatelic exception trumps that as I read it.
Does USPS have a place where they publish rules interpretations?
Lars
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12:03:44am
re: Precancel information
I don't see it that way. Earlier sections state what and how pre-canceled stamps may be used and for what services. Exceptions would have to be in those sections.
The section you refer to permitting use of pre-canceled stamps by stamp collectors makes no exception to how and for what services pre-canceled stamps may be used. It makes an exception permitting stamp collectors to purchase and use the stamps.
The permit authorizing one to use pre-canceled use is subject to the rules governing use of pre-canceled stamps.
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