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General Philatelic/Identify This? : cancels on full mint sheets

 

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jamesk2292

24 Apr 2015
02:53:11pm
I purchased a box of stamps and in the box was another box and in that box were a number of full sheets of stamps from various counties. Even though they were mint sheets, they all had a cancel placed at the point that four stamps came together, thereby canceling all the stamps on each one of the sheets. So the questions are: what do you call this? If I want to trade them with someone what do I tell them I have to trade?
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nl1947

24 Apr 2015
03:11:48pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

Probably what are called CTO's (cancelled to order)
Look this up for information
http://www.linns.com/howto/refresher/ctos_19980511/refreshercourse.aspx

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

24 Apr 2015
06:30:58pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

I found the article interesting since it spoke about being able to pay postage due by way of having mint US postage cancelled. Back in the late 1970s I worked for a real estate developer who would periodically send out mailings. They included 'no postage necessary' reply cards. I was in charge of picking up the mail, and in the days after making one of those large mailings I would be picking up the reply cards and paying the postage due on them. It often ran over $100 a day in postage.

I knew I could pay it in mint postage and keep the cancelled stamps. The first time I tried it, the post office refused. I made them call their regional office, which informed them that I was absolutely correct. So I have a big hoard of full sheets of stamps from that era. I even have a complete $1 stamp sheet. These are cancelled nicely with the round counter cancel, mainly because they allowed me to do it myself! And of course they all have pristine gum on the backs.

So per the article, these appear to be US CTO stamps. But they have indeed done their job, being traded for postage due. I guess if I ever chance to sell these, I'll have to type up and sign an explanation sheet.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

24 Apr 2015
06:43:40pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

The best thing to note in the Linns' article is;
" .... Many of the countries that have issued CTO stamps are former Eastern European communist bloc nations, including Albania, East Germany, Hungary, Romania and Russia, as well as Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia. Most of these countries began marketing CTOs during the 1950s and stopped after 1991.
During the 1960s, the stamp market was flooded with CTOs from the Trucial States of the Arabian peninsula. Many of the stamps produced by these entities —
Ajman, Dubai, Fujeira, Manama, Ras al-Khaima and Sharjah — are not recognized in the Scott catalog because evidence suggests that actual postal use of these stamps was negligible.
Other countries that have issued CTOs include
Costa Rica (during the 1910s), Spain (from 1854-82), Liberia (beginning in 1885), and several more....."

The "several" more should include certain rocks that poke their guano coated heads above the water of the Caribbean near Grenada as well as Libya under Kadafi, Somalia and the several incarnations of what was once called the "Congo.".
I am sure that there are other candidates for similar condemnation.

One minor technical thing that is not explicitly mentioned is that often, probably very often, the cancels were "added" as the sheets were printed as a part of the process and not added afterward.

Something that is not explicitly mentioned in the Linns article is that while many youths may have been introduced to Philately due to the usually attractive, diverse topical Jam Jar labels passed off as stamps, there are quite a few who suddenly discovered that their collections were essentially worthless and who then reached the conclusion that the hobby is rife with cheats and scammers.


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michael78651

24 Apr 2015
09:25:13pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

Some more CTO countries: Belize, Togo, other former French Africa colonies, Angola, Cuba, North Korea, North Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua and more.

Many stamps from the British Empire were CTO as well, like the UPU omnibus issue. Such instances are often indicated in the catalog with italicized used values and a comment.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Apr 2015
07:44:43am

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re: cancels on full mint sheets

I actually think that CTOs have their place in philately. they may not rest on the highest pedastal, but they are often the cartes de visage that allow new members entry into our field. They tend to be pretty, and often inexpensive.

They are no more contrived than, say, first flights and FDCs that also figures prominently in collecting.

As to poor resale value, I wouldn't worry much about that; we're getting mils on the dollar back on most of our collection anyway, and many of the real jewels aren't such because of their monetary value.

Hell, I wouldn't have a Czech collection if it weren't for CTOs.

David


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michael78651

25 Apr 2015
08:35:12am
re: cancels on full mint sheets

True, David. Many stamps from many countries wouldn't be available to us if it weren't for CTO.

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Tom in Exton, PA

25 Apr 2015
11:49:44am
re: cancels on full mint sheets

Some of the CTO, pretty much the Arab "Sand Dune" issues, as they were called in the day, were nothing more than pretty stickers. It was a conspiracy between commercial printers who produced the stamps and the entities whose names appeared on them to make money. Stamp sets from devote Muslim countries for Christmas, or other Western topics like Disney that had no presence in those countries. These sets were often extensive. Some were sold mint as new issues, and these sets had many high face values to get that price up. They never saw postal usage in the issuing country. In fact it's doubtful that the stamps ever were there. The fact that Scott doesn't list them solidifies this point.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Apr 2015
12:14:13pm

Auctions
re: cancels on full mint sheets

Tom, that IS accurate description of SOME of the CTO issuers. But it's not for all.

In Czechoslovakia, for instance, all CTOs also exist postally used, and the used copies are prized.

For some dune issues, used copies exist, and I sold some dunes on cover for tidy amounts, just because of their rarity.

My problem with bemoaning CTOs in isolation is that it misses other instances of postal greed and philatelic contrivances. And it misses the service that CTOs do for the hobby, introducing youngsters, far more likely to be attracted by a guady CTO SS than a used block of 15c Buchanans

David

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

25 Apr 2015
12:25:18pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

I believe that you will also find much less anathema toward CTOs from collectors in countries other than the US and Canada.

Bobby

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Bobstamp
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25 Apr 2015
12:45:16pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I often buy CTOs simply because they're available and generally inexpensive. Given my druthers, I'd rather have a postally used or mint stamp, but my main reason for collecting any stamps is what they illustrate. Here's a set of Vietnam CTOs that nicely illustrate the main stages of the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. I'm actually expecting a mint set from Delcampe any day now, but the CTOs do the same job.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Bob

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nl1947

25 Apr 2015
01:20:50pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

Quote from Linns

"CTOs packaged in packets have been used for many years to introduce new collectors to the hobby. Though the CTO stamps may never have fulfilled a postal function, they are inexpensive collectible items that have been used to help promote the growth of the hobby."



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michael78651

25 Apr 2015
10:17:34pm
re: cancels on full mint sheets

"They never saw postal usage in the issuing country. In fact it's doubtful that the stamps ever were there. "



Actually they were found in the Emirates, and especially in Egypt. You wouldn't find them in the post offices, but in souvenir shops.

The United Arab Emirates was formed on December 2, 1971. Contracts for postage stamps were terminated on July 31, 1972, with all previous stamps officially rendered postally invalid on April 1, 1973. The so-called stamps that were issued after July 31, 1972 are unofficial issues.

Souvenir packets of stamps from the "Sand Dune" sheikdoms often contained forged stamps for the tourist trade. The forged stamps were mostly sold in Egypt, but I read several years ago an article in "The American Philatelist" that these were also sold in souvenir shops in Fujeira.

It was an interesting article that showed that many more of the "Sand Dune" stamps were actually used for postal purposes than is commonly thought. The author was politicking to have more listed by Scott. Scott hasn't agreed to that. I don't recall when that issue was published, however.
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Author/Postings
jamesk2292

24 Apr 2015
02:53:11pm

I purchased a box of stamps and in the box was another box and in that box were a number of full sheets of stamps from various counties. Even though they were mint sheets, they all had a cancel placed at the point that four stamps came together, thereby canceling all the stamps on each one of the sheets. So the questions are: what do you call this? If I want to trade them with someone what do I tell them I have to trade?

Like
Login to Like
this post
nl1947

24 Apr 2015
03:11:48pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

Probably what are called CTO's (cancelled to order)
Look this up for information
http://www.linns.com/howto/refresher/ctos_19980511/refreshercourse.aspx

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
24 Apr 2015
06:30:58pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

I found the article interesting since it spoke about being able to pay postage due by way of having mint US postage cancelled. Back in the late 1970s I worked for a real estate developer who would periodically send out mailings. They included 'no postage necessary' reply cards. I was in charge of picking up the mail, and in the days after making one of those large mailings I would be picking up the reply cards and paying the postage due on them. It often ran over $100 a day in postage.

I knew I could pay it in mint postage and keep the cancelled stamps. The first time I tried it, the post office refused. I made them call their regional office, which informed them that I was absolutely correct. So I have a big hoard of full sheets of stamps from that era. I even have a complete $1 stamp sheet. These are cancelled nicely with the round counter cancel, mainly because they allowed me to do it myself! And of course they all have pristine gum on the backs.

So per the article, these appear to be US CTO stamps. But they have indeed done their job, being traded for postage due. I guess if I ever chance to sell these, I'll have to type up and sign an explanation sheet.

Like 
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like this post.
Login to Like.

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Apr 2015
06:43:40pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

The best thing to note in the Linns' article is;
" .... Many of the countries that have issued CTO stamps are former Eastern European communist bloc nations, including Albania, East Germany, Hungary, Romania and Russia, as well as Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia. Most of these countries began marketing CTOs during the 1950s and stopped after 1991.
During the 1960s, the stamp market was flooded with CTOs from the Trucial States of the Arabian peninsula. Many of the stamps produced by these entities —
Ajman, Dubai, Fujeira, Manama, Ras al-Khaima and Sharjah — are not recognized in the Scott catalog because evidence suggests that actual postal use of these stamps was negligible.
Other countries that have issued CTOs include
Costa Rica (during the 1910s), Spain (from 1854-82), Liberia (beginning in 1885), and several more....."

The "several" more should include certain rocks that poke their guano coated heads above the water of the Caribbean near Grenada as well as Libya under Kadafi, Somalia and the several incarnations of what was once called the "Congo.".
I am sure that there are other candidates for similar condemnation.

One minor technical thing that is not explicitly mentioned is that often, probably very often, the cancels were "added" as the sheets were printed as a part of the process and not added afterward.

Something that is not explicitly mentioned in the Linns article is that while many youths may have been introduced to Philately due to the usually attractive, diverse topical Jam Jar labels passed off as stamps, there are quite a few who suddenly discovered that their collections were essentially worthless and who then reached the conclusion that the hobby is rife with cheats and scammers.


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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
michael78651

24 Apr 2015
09:25:13pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

Some more CTO countries: Belize, Togo, other former French Africa colonies, Angola, Cuba, North Korea, North Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua and more.

Many stamps from the British Empire were CTO as well, like the UPU omnibus issue. Such instances are often indicated in the catalog with italicized used values and a comment.

Like 
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likes this post.
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Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Apr 2015
07:44:43am

Auctions

re: cancels on full mint sheets

I actually think that CTOs have their place in philately. they may not rest on the highest pedastal, but they are often the cartes de visage that allow new members entry into our field. They tend to be pretty, and often inexpensive.

They are no more contrived than, say, first flights and FDCs that also figures prominently in collecting.

As to poor resale value, I wouldn't worry much about that; we're getting mils on the dollar back on most of our collection anyway, and many of the real jewels aren't such because of their monetary value.

Hell, I wouldn't have a Czech collection if it weren't for CTOs.

David


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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

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michael78651

25 Apr 2015
08:35:12am

re: cancels on full mint sheets

True, David. Many stamps from many countries wouldn't be available to us if it weren't for CTO.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
25 Apr 2015
11:49:44am

re: cancels on full mint sheets

Some of the CTO, pretty much the Arab "Sand Dune" issues, as they were called in the day, were nothing more than pretty stickers. It was a conspiracy between commercial printers who produced the stamps and the entities whose names appeared on them to make money. Stamp sets from devote Muslim countries for Christmas, or other Western topics like Disney that had no presence in those countries. These sets were often extensive. Some were sold mint as new issues, and these sets had many high face values to get that price up. They never saw postal usage in the issuing country. In fact it's doubtful that the stamps ever were there. The fact that Scott doesn't list them solidifies this point.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Apr 2015
12:14:13pm

Auctions

re: cancels on full mint sheets

Tom, that IS accurate description of SOME of the CTO issuers. But it's not for all.

In Czechoslovakia, for instance, all CTOs also exist postally used, and the used copies are prized.

For some dune issues, used copies exist, and I sold some dunes on cover for tidy amounts, just because of their rarity.

My problem with bemoaning CTOs in isolation is that it misses other instances of postal greed and philatelic contrivances. And it misses the service that CTOs do for the hobby, introducing youngsters, far more likely to be attracted by a guady CTO SS than a used block of 15c Buchanans

David

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
25 Apr 2015
12:25:18pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

I believe that you will also find much less anathema toward CTOs from collectors in countries other than the US and Canada.

Bobby

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Bobstamp

25 Apr 2015
12:45:16pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I often buy CTOs simply because they're available and generally inexpensive. Given my druthers, I'd rather have a postally used or mint stamp, but my main reason for collecting any stamps is what they illustrate. Here's a set of Vietnam CTOs that nicely illustrate the main stages of the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. I'm actually expecting a mint set from Delcampe any day now, but the CTOs do the same job.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Bob

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nl1947

25 Apr 2015
01:20:50pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

Quote from Linns

"CTOs packaged in packets have been used for many years to introduce new collectors to the hobby. Though the CTO stamps may never have fulfilled a postal function, they are inexpensive collectible items that have been used to help promote the growth of the hobby."



Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
michael78651

25 Apr 2015
10:17:34pm

re: cancels on full mint sheets

"They never saw postal usage in the issuing country. In fact it's doubtful that the stamps ever were there. "



Actually they were found in the Emirates, and especially in Egypt. You wouldn't find them in the post offices, but in souvenir shops.

The United Arab Emirates was formed on December 2, 1971. Contracts for postage stamps were terminated on July 31, 1972, with all previous stamps officially rendered postally invalid on April 1, 1973. The so-called stamps that were issued after July 31, 1972 are unofficial issues.

Souvenir packets of stamps from the "Sand Dune" sheikdoms often contained forged stamps for the tourist trade. The forged stamps were mostly sold in Egypt, but I read several years ago an article in "The American Philatelist" that these were also sold in souvenir shops in Fujeira.

It was an interesting article that showed that many more of the "Sand Dune" stamps were actually used for postal purposes than is commonly thought. The author was politicking to have more listed by Scott. Scott hasn't agreed to that. I don't recall when that issue was published, however.
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