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What we collect!
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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : An Ethical Dilemma

 

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Guthrum
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29 May 2015
05:58:26am
Stamp collectors work to a budget, and will look for the lowest offer on a stamp, subject to the usual parameters. Then again, dealers know this, and while you may be able to save a few pence (or cents) by shopping around, prices are usually within an accepted range.

Very occasionally, though, a dealer makes a mistake, and one such came my way the other day. Here was a fairly pricey stamp ($27) which the dealer had entered into his lists at $2.70. (I compared the price with another online dealer: he had it at $29.) It was obviously a careless typing error, with a stray decimal point having crept in.

(I should say that these were UK dealers: I've converted to dollars for ease of understanding.)

I paid the cheaper price, but not without compunction: had I known this dealer personally, from regular business at stamp fairs, I would have been tempted at least to draw his attention to the price offered. As it is, it was a postal transaction and I did not.

Have you ever come across mistakes in your favour? (Many of you deal in stamps: have you ever made such mistakes yourself?) If I'm a stranger, I make you pay for your carelessness; if I'm a regular customer whom you know in person I alert you to your error.

That's not consistent. What would you expect, as a dealer? What would you have done, as a customer?


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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

29 May 2015
06:50:10am

Approvals
re: An Ethical Dilemma

10% of catalogue value is not much, but do you know if this dealer based his pricing on a certain catalogue? The differences in price levels between catalogues can be huge. If for instance you use Stanley Gibbons (known to be overpriced) and your dealer used Scott (known to be underpriced in many cases), the price the dealer used could still be 30 or 40% of c.v. This does not even take the exchange rates into account.
And then again, perhaps he bought the stamp for less than 5 cents, making a price of 2.70 still commercially sound.

From my own experience as a seller: I often buy small collections and then break them up. Not always do I check each and every stamp for its c.v. Often I do a superficial sort and then price the stamps in such a way I will make a profit if I sell a certain amount of stamps. If that means some stamps are underpriced, so be it. My loss. But not really, because I look at the collection as a whole, not at the single stamps.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

29 May 2015
07:18:15am

Auctions
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I typically share my great finds with the dealer and thank him for his generosity. The good dealers are typically ecstatic that a customer walks away happy.

I will also pull out items that I don't want, but that I know are undervalued, and give them a head's up. Sometimes they say, throw it back in; other times they are happy for the lesson and may, or not, change the price.

I've never had a dealer, except once, try to change the price AFTER the buyer holds it in his hand, and that dealer to this day is known to everyone as the guy who doubled his price at point of sale. Ask Phil or Craig and they'll know exactly of whom I speak. it's that kind of dealings that will kill a dealer.

knowlege is power; share it any way you wish.

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TuskenRaider
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29 May 2015
08:03:00am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hi Everyone;

I once bought a CD on eBay listed for $2.00. When it arrived I noticed that the shipping was more
than the total price I paid. So several days later I e-mail him $3.00 via PayPal. He was surprised
and very grateful. I figure it may well have been a very naive kid just trying to learn the ropes.

Another time a lady tried to buy some jewellery from me on eBid.net, and tried to tell me how to
pack it to save on S&H. I politely declined selling to her, explaining that the seller is responsible for
the item if damaged in shipping due to bad packaging. And also told her politely to not tell me how
to operate my business. That felt really good, and I never regretted loosing that sale.

Some people are very bossy and pushy and I won't stand for that sort of thing.

Just Gloatin'....
TuskenRaider

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michael78651

29 May 2015
09:21:18am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I used to contact the sellers if I saw that they had mis-identified and/or over/under-priced an item based on how they had their other offerings priced. I don't do it that much anymore as I grew tired of the responses I got back from many sellers basically telling me to either buy it or go away, and to stay out of their business. I expected that from the thieves who intentionally over-price. However, many that made listing mistakes and were under-priced as a result had the same attitude. Of course there were the sellers who were appreciative of my contacting them too. That includes those who mistakenly over-priced their items too.

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xstitchalanna
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Wanting to bring the joy of stamp collecting to younger generations

29 May 2015
10:45:46am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I've done some online selling before, not stamps. If you are running a business and selling something, it is your responsibility as the seller to check your listing. If someone buys your item for $5.00 and you meant to list it at $50.00, well too bad. you are obligated. You can't just say "oops that's actually $50 send me an extra $45" lol

And how is someone to know if that was an error in pricing, or a special deal in order to get new customers?

What about those people who go to garage sales and buy a painting for a few dollars just to find out its worth hundreds. Is it cheating the person who is selling it because they didn't know what they had? The owner could have done a little research online, or had it checked out by someone to see if it was worth something.... I guess it boils down to the saying "One Man's Trash is another's treasure"

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michael78651

29 May 2015
11:02:04am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

"I guess it boils down to the saying "One Man's Trash is another's treasure""



While that holds true, when it comes to selling, I think what you said before that is more true. Know what you have before you put a price tag on it. Too many people think that they have a fortune in what they are selling, because, as they love to state, "It's old". That applies to more than just stamps.
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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

29 May 2015
11:25:24am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

No Dilemma for me as a buyer. If a seller offers something for a price, and I'm willing to pay that price, it's a meeting of the minds. And in collectibles those who do their homework, and gain skill and knowledge, can snag a bargain.

Many years ago there was a dispute on eBay. A seller listed a handful of superhero figures for a few dollars. Someone, and only one person, saw that one of the figures was very rare. He bought the lot at opening bid. Then he listed the rare figure for $3000. The original seller saw that and went nuts, saying that he had been swindled. Um no, you profess to be a seller of these action figures, then you should've known the rare ones!

On the other hand, I once saw a $100 model kit for sale for $20 at a show. The vendor wasn't at the booth, so I paid his wife the $20. A few minutes later the vendor had tracked me down in the hall. He told me that a mistake had been made. The $20 sticker was from when he bought it many years ago and the $100 PostIt he had over it must've come off. I kinda knew the guy from going to shows, so I returned the kit to him and he gave me the $20 back. No, I wasn't going to force him to honor a mistake. I wouldn't have felt right about that. And the hobby is a very small pond!

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smauggie
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29 May 2015
02:30:44pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Early in my re-entry into serious stamp collecting, I tried to fill some spots in my plate# block collection (which I have now completely given up collecting for). I had only met this dealer (really his representative) a couple of times before. During this visit I bought like $3 in platebllocks (real nickel and dime stuff). On my way out I was admiring my purchase when I noticed he had given me one too many plateblocks. I went back and gave it back, and that was the start of a beautiful friendship which lasted for the rest of his life.


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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

29 May 2015
08:22:31pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I see no particular dilemma, ethical or otherwise.

1.) " ... What would you have done, as a customer? ..."
That's easy, I'd offer the $2.70 along with a note stating that I'd like to buy it as offered provided that the offer was not a typo. I was once surprised in a reasonably similar situation concerning an approval dealer by the response that it was an error, but he'd stand behind it.
Not all that many years ago I was sitting at a dealer's counter picking out 10¢
hinged, used stamps from a dated album that I assumed the dealer had stripped of valuable issues.. I had a pile and finished that album so he handed me another one and I continued as we chatted, I think into a third album so the pile, even at 10¢ was close to $100.00 or so.
Truthfully he was distracted by another customer at times and interrupted by several phone calls. I had a large pile and it was time to close the shop.
I began counting the stamps in the pile when suddenly he looked and said " Oh, some of those have higher cats." So I said " Lets go through the pile and pull out anything you want to keep." We did and he chose about twenty or thirty to sell for more, we settled up and I left with a lot of good stamps.
I began to be concerned that we had rushed at the end of his open hours as not only was he closing, but I had to be on my way, so I brought the whole pile, by then in 102 cards and told him that we had been rushed and I would be much happier if he took his time to be sure about the deal. He did glance at a few of them for a moment but then said, he was fine with the sale.
As far as I know he still operates one of the few brick and mortar shops in Fort Pierce, Florida

2.) ".... What would you expect, as a dealer?...."
Honesty, from my customer to match my honesty as a seller.

3.) "...it is your responsibility as the seller to check your listing. ..."
True enough, but it is my responsibility to be able to sleep at night.

Another time a few years ago I mistakenly inserted two bills, a $20 and a $100, in a darkened car as we were passing the post office to pay for a two kilo lot of Machins from a London bulk stamp dealer. A few days later I wondered where I had cashed the $100 bill but did not associate it with that mailing. Some two weeks later I received a note returning most of the overage along with the promise to send the rest as soon as he acquired enough US currency. That was easy, I just ordered another lot and eventually it all arrived with the balance in the parcel.

In some fifty years of stamping as an adult I have come across numerous dealers who are scrupulously honest, and if I've been cheated I don't recall it.

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malcolm197

31 May 2015
07:43:33am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

There is no simple answer to this. There has been a similar discussion on another board with a whole gamut of answers fom one extreme to the other. Surprisingly perhaps ( or not) a known "savvy" dealer was one of those who took the view that the dealers mistake is the dealers mistake. However what he did say is that he buys at "his" price, mArks up and sells at "his" profit so he has not in fact lost out, but made a modest and not exorbitant profit.
That is OK as far as it goes. You can say that someone who makes their living by buying or selling is obligated to make sure that they are "selling" at aprice acceptable to both the buyer and the vendor.

The problem comes with private( and Stamporama or similar) buys and sales (or trades) - or transactions with those dealers where the relationship overspills from business into friendship. There it becomes an issue not of honesty but of "fairness" however one wishes to define that. We are then into the realms of individual ethics and morals. I admit that while I might be willing to overlook a mistakenly low price from an "anonymous" dealer - I would be uncomfortable with an amateur ( who could be anticipated to be uninformed) or a dealer I "liked" for want of a better word.

I suppose the best answer is the standard cop-out "it all depends..."

Malcolm

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snowy12
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31 May 2015
09:17:59am

Auctions
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I Remember a few years ago winning an auction for a page of Belgium railway stamps all mint never hinged.
The dealer had a few more sets up for sale of the same material.When my lots arrived still on the sheet I turned it over and the other sets he was selling were on the other side.
They were worth more than the one's I had won,by a fair sum .
I emailed the dealer who was in the US and told them what had happened ,after a few days I received a reply,thanking me for my honesty and to keep the stamps.
Wow was I a happy chappy.
Brian

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TuskenRaider
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02 Jun 2015
11:18:37pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hi Everyone;

It would not matter to me if an "anonymous" dealer or a good friend on here, I could not take
advantage of someone's mistake, because it doesn't seem to be fair. Maybe I'm old school,
but that is the way I was brought up by my folks.

So for me it is simple, no moral or Ethical Dilemma at all.

Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

03 Jun 2015
05:15:44pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I agree with ken, I still see it as an ethical situation, but see no dilemma.
What is right is right and what is wrong is simply wrong.
Taking advantage of someone's mistake is the latter, and can never be the former.


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thebiggnome
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03 Jun 2015
05:52:24pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think I fail to see the real dilemma. I routinely win lots on ebay for 10% of the catalog value or less. (In fact, I rarely bid more than that.) This guy just cut out the middleman and saved the ebay fee...

Chris, with perhaps a bit of tongue in my cheek

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Guthrum
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03 Jun 2015
06:03:10pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

So you would have returned the stamp, or rather not bought it at all? Or bought it from the other dealer at the higher price?

We seem to be about evenly divided here between those who would buy, those who would not, and those who wouldn't if they knew the guy but would if they didn't.

Here's the stamp in question.

Image Not Found

Manolis Glezos, a Greek resistance fighter, still alive today. How much is he worth in Scott?

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

03 Jun 2015
06:18:41pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think if you pay the listed price, there is no problem. The only dilemma is if you suspect the price is too low and you are THINKING about notifying the seller instead of buying it. Alanna provided several good examples as to why the price may be set improperly. If I knew the seller and thought he had goofed, I would tell him. Otherwise, it's not my job to educate a seller. If I see a bargain I pounce! I really don't see a problem with the strategy employed by Guthrum. It's not my job to validate a seller's pricing, but if I know them I might do a FAVOR by letting them know what I saw in case they want to fix it before someone else pounces. And I sleep very well at night!

Lars

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

03 Jun 2015
08:07:52pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

The funny part... this is a hobby where every collector's dream is to find a British Guinea 1 penny in a stamp packet! And in that dream it was never mentioned that we needed to give the stamp back to the packet stuffing company!

And it's sport to go shopping for bargains. Heck, I troll eBay for cheap stuff nearly daily. In the Postal History / Covers category, I'll see a 1906 Puerto Rico or Indian Territory cancel cancel for $30, so I head over to the Postcard category and since the dealer is focused on the picture side of the card, I find both for less than $5 each. Is it my duty to hold some sort of seminar for postcard dealers so they can identify and profit from another hobby that they chose to ignore?

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TribalErnie

03 Jun 2015
08:22:55pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I gotta weigh in on this....

For me alot of the fun of the hobby comes from finding the best possible stamp at the best possible price. I buy early used US singles. These are not usually the kind of stamps found in lots or packets. I'm exploring ways to enjoy the hobby like thst but I digress.
I can't find any ethical dilemma when something is offered at a price and when that price is paid item received.

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hs2oca
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03 Jun 2015
08:47:08pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Have you ever come across mistakes in your favour?

Not that I'm aware of! But then I'm new enough to collecting I haven't memorized catalogue values. I tend to trust my dealer...a lot.

(Many of you deal in stamps: have you ever made such mistakes yourself?)

I'm just starting and am continually making blunders in the selling arena. I do not have all the tools to properly id my stamps due to budget constraints. I rely on my local stamp club and stamp club members to help me. Unfortunately I do feel I was taken advantage of the other evening. But it's my own fault, so I really cannot complain. It was the attitude of the man who bought my discounted stamps that irritated me most. I told him he could buy for the prices in the album and even make me a deal. Which he did, but in a sly snarky kind of voice which, honestly, made me want to say 'no' to him. But a deal is a deal, and I just wanted to get rid of a bunch of those stamps. If he thought I was an idiot for selling so low, why not educate me instead of being rude?

What would you expect, as a dealer?

You know, if I mis-ID a stamp, it's really my fault. But I have to admit that I would love training in how to properly ID stamps, and I think that means finding the right books, having the right tools and equipment, and knowing the current market value for the stamps I'm selling. Ideally it would mean an apprenticeship with a trained philatelist, whatever that is! But I know there are people in the club who have far more knowledge than I do, that I'd like to gain experience from. I'm hoping by going to the stamp meetings and being on online boards that I can learn enough to not appear too much of a doofus (as we say here).

What would you have done, as a customer?

I would have asked the dealer if that was the correct price. But that's me. I'd rather sleep well at night.

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cocollectibles

04 Jun 2015
12:32:00pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Well ... I see neither an ethical issue nor a dilemma here. If a dealer lists an item for a price, that is the price at which they are selling this item. Anything more is YOUR inference as to why that item is priced as it is or for how much it "should be" priced.

Consider these scenarios:

1. You go to a store to buy something usually priced around $50 and find it with a tag for $5.

2. An airline posts a fare of $199 from New York to London, which usually runs at $600 or higher.

I bet that in each of these cases you would NOT contact the store clerk or airline representative to see if this is REALLY the price they meant, but instead would snatch up those deals. Why no "dilemma" here?

I've been on the other end of this situation where, because of inattention, laziness, being rushed, whatever reason, I mis-priced items on eBay and they were scooped up quickly and I'm sure, with glee. I wrote off each loss as my mistake.

Peter

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04 Jun 2015
04:57:07pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: An Ethical Dilemma

The beauty of the stamp hobby is that no one knows everything about everything, Whether it's scarce color variations of common stamps or scarce postal history items the average show can be a treasure trove for specialists. Whenever I sit down at a dollar cover box I'm asked "What are you looking for?" I honestly can't say because I am looking for anything out of the ordinary: Scarce DPO's, grilled banknotes, scarce usages, scarce destinations, routings, scarce machine cancels, content, US Scott #25's, etc. I've watched a friend flipping through a dollar box pull out a Great Britain cover - I said "What's that" - he said "it's a Charles Dickens cover". I do the same with stampless letters sent by Gerrit Smith - the penmanship is distinctive. Control markings of private perfs are another thing that can be found - some catalog several hundred dollars. Letters to important people, it's all there at every show and most of it is sold for a small percentage of it's identified worth.......

Knowledge is the key -

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Ningpo
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04 Jun 2015
10:37:05pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

There may be a slightly different slant to this. By my understanding, the seller had the opportunity to cancel the sale, if he had noticed a pricing error at the point you placed the order and paid.

Now it may differ in other countries but here in the UK our Sale of Goods Act permits a seller to refuse to sell goods if an error in pricing has been made, as long as the goods are either withdrawn completely, or re-priced immediately; and for long distance selling: regardless of whether payment has been accepted. A seller may act in this way up to the point of fulfilling the sale (delivery). I am assuming here that this law applies to sellers who operate from a platform such as eBay, or similar. Which it should.

So, the seller had two opportunities to get things right: when listing it in the first place and second; by refusing to sell at that price when the order was placed.

I dare say this probably will not clear your conscience though.

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Guthrum
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05 Jun 2015
05:12:08pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Oh it does, it does!

I am a humble buyer; I don't do selling. The other chap (or multi-million pound corporate enterprise) is a seller, a dealer with massive internet presence. No contest. I took him for a mighty fifteen pounds. Possibly. Nobody's told me the Scott value.

The point was abstractly ethical. I would not have done this to Andy or Howard, who sort of know me. I did do it to some chap (or corporation etc.) who does not. If that is not a dilemma, it is at least a moral inconsistency. It's been interesting to read the reactions of members.

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thebiggnome
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05 Jun 2015
05:23:03pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

If you are making the distinction between protecting friends and perceivedly taking advantage of strangers, there is a scientific reason for it. There is an evolutionary advantage to protecting members of one's own clan, tribe, group, family, whatever. Those with whom we have close contact become de facto family members in our minds and we naturally look out for them.

Chris

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APS #220693 ATA#57179

05 Jun 2015
05:34:26pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

"there is a scientific reason for it"



Chris, you are correct in the sub-conscious sense of evolutionary biology, but for me there is also the conscious decision that I would likely point out the error to someone I know with the knowledge that it would quite likely be repaid, or at least paid forward. I have no such expectation of a stranger or inanimate corporation.

Lars

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thebiggnome
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05 Jun 2015
05:37:43pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Of course, humans have the capability of using our brains to override whatever instinctual urges we feel; we may be driven by them, but we are not bound by them. They do explain Ian's remorse (or lack of it).

Chris

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usrevenues
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08 Jun 2015
10:44:15pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I have zero reservations about cherrypicking. It's part of the game. I have seen dealers cherrypick other dealers. It happens all the time.

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Tom in Exton, PA

09 Jun 2015
08:50:04am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

"I have seen dealers cherrypick other dealers. It happens all the time."



I suspect this happens in all hobbies. In the antique arena, they sell "floor rights" to greedy dealers who pretty much pay the same price they would've for a table to be able to walk the hall and scoop up bargains while the dealers are setting up.

In the model car hobby, the more seasoned dealers will descend on a hobbyist guy who has taken a table to sell off some of his duplicates. They'll hard ball him with prices and his stuff will be at their tables marked up to double before the show doors even open. I've literally seen empty tables at shows where a dealer just bought the guy out completely.

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copy55555
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09 Jun 2015
05:15:16pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I actually do not see a problem with buying items for far less than their retail value if the seller set the price and accepts payment.

I recently read an article where a person cleared out old electronics from their garage and dropped them off a recycling center. Appears one of the items was a rare early Apple computer. The recycling center sold it for $200k and is offering to give half ($100k) to the person who dropped it off if they can be located. That was very nice of the center but you notice that they didn't offer $200k minus scrap value plus costs. It was the recycling center's expertise that saved it from ending up as scrap not the person's who dropped it off. So what is the ethical dilemma, if any?

I'm sure all of us have examples of buying something at a flea market or auction or stamp show for a very favorable price and later finding out that it was very very favorable. A Picasso under a 4 yr old's finger painting, a mint block of US #1's tucked between pages 122 and 123 in Stephen King's 1st edition of "It," a bottle full of quarters in a public auction box lot for $2 because you like the old stapler was in it.

No, I didn't find a Picasso or a block of 1's. Not even a used block or a used single. I did find the bottle of quarters after arriving home. The stapler was broken, though. I did not return the lot and didn't feel I was cheating anyone. Or should I have?

Speaking of those greedy dealers who go to antique shows early to scoop up bargains - such is the nature of the business. I believe many flea markets and antique shows sell expensive ($50) tickets to get on the floor a day early. I'm sure that many stamp shows have a dealer only night before the show opens.

If I attend a public auction and spot a Sholes & Glidden typewriter with an opening bid of $100, I will be happy to jump in. If none of the other bidders know anything about vintage typewriters and run the bid up to only $150 or $200, I will be happy to buy it and bring it home. It would not be my job to stand up and inform the crowd that this is one of the first machines produced in the 1870's and is worth several thousand dollars or more. Or should I? No, I never came across a Sholes.

This was a bit longer than I planned.

Tad

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Guthrum
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09 Jun 2015
06:59:28pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Perhaps it's time to move the discussion along to something along the lines of: What's the best unexpected bonus you've experienced when buying stamps?

Unfortunately, I don't think anything in my collection would qualify - or perhaps I should say that I wouldn't recognise it even if it actually were to exist somewhere in my stockbooks.

The same does not go for books, and I have a bought a couple over the years with autographs or inscriptions which the seller clearly didn't spot, or value. When offering a copy of Stolen Journey, by Oliver Philpot, on a well-known internet mart for 1p, the seller didn't realise that the author had autographed a dedication on the title page, signing off with "29 Oct 1968 (25 yrs to the day!)". Oliver Philpot was the lesser known of the Wooden Horse escapers (Eric Williams wrote the more popular account) from Stalag Luft III in, of course, October 1943.

If you like foreign films, some of you may remember French filmstar Delphine Seyrig or director Louis Malle, who sometime before 1970 co-autographed (for some reason) an entirely unrelated book I picked up for 3/6.

No doubt any one of these three is now worth, oh, $5 at least!

But back to stamps - have you ever struck lucky without immediately realising it?

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cocollectibles

09 Jun 2015
07:44:53pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I suspect this new branch will be moved to a new topic, but until then ...

Yes! I have had a nice surprise or two in my bulk purchases. There was a UK seller on eBay, the Ten-O'Clock Show, who once had large clearance boxes of unsorted lots(GB, Commonwealth, Asia, etc.); in one I purchased I found a small box containing a few dozen GB Queen Victoria stamps, including about a half-dozen Penny Blacks! In an Asian box I found several HK stamps with interesting cancels (treaty ports; some foreign cancels on HK stamps).

I love such surprises but they are quite uncommon.

Peter

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09 Jun 2015
10:16:46pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hopefully Noernberg will retell his tale of finding a complete set of Zeppelins in the back of a stockbook that he purchased for a pittance!!!

Lars

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Tom in Exton, PA

09 Jun 2015
11:17:13pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

"If I attend a public auction and spot a Sholes & Glidden typewriter with an opening bid of $100, I will be happy to jump in. If none of the other bidders know anything about vintage typewriters and run the bid up to only $150 or $200, I will be happy to buy it and bring it home. It would not be my job to stand up and inform the crowd that this is one of the first machines produced in the 1870's and is worth several thousand dollars or more. Or should I? No, I never came across a Sholes."



Just the opposite. I'd stand up and tell the crowd that it's worthless since the monitor is missing! Winking

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

10 Jun 2015
08:40:18am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Here is a news flash for those who believe that they are under no obligation to ascertain that the seller is aware of the true value of his item.
I remember a case in contract law where a situation like that occurred. It is called a "Unilateral mistake" and the seller upon learning that the buyer knew that the item was worth significantly more and an honest mistake had been made by the seller there was a suit filed, the sale was cancelled.
I am also pretty sure that in one of his books, Herman Hurst writes of just such a situation concerning a stamp sale in the 1930s.

If I can find my copy of Praust and Upp on the law of contracts I'd copy the citation.

Here is a decent explanation of the law under which such a contract is voidable.



Unilateral Mistake

".....A unilateral mistake is a mechanical error of calculation or perception concerning a basic assumption on which the contract is formed. For example:

The Boston Red Sox and Ramon Garcia orally negotiate a contract where Garcia will play for the Red Sox and the Red Sox will pay him $15,000. During the negotiation, Garcia thought he heard the Red Sox say $50,000. This is a unilateral mistake.


The general rule involving unilateral mistakes is that, if the non-mistaken party either knew or should have known of the other party’s mistake, the mistake is a “palpable unilateral mistake” which makes the contract voidable by the mistaken party. For example:

The Pentagon is accepting bids from ship building companies to build a new aircraft carrier. Ten different companies submit bids. Nine of those bids range in price from $140 million to $150 million. The tenth bid, belonging to Seven Seas Shipbuilding Inc., comes in at $43 million. The Pentagon quickly signs Seven Seas to the contract. The next day, Seven Seas reviews its bid submission and discovers some calculating errors that resulted in their bid being $43 million when it should have been $136 million. In this case, the contract will be voidable by Seven Seas. The fact that there was a $97 million difference between Seven Seas’ bid and the next lowest bid should have been a clear indication to the Pentagon that Seven Seas had made a mistake somewhere. Therefore, the Pentagon either
knew or should have known that Seven Seas made a mistake. That being the case, the mistake was a palpable unilateral mistake and Seven Seas can void the contract. See M.F. Kemper Construction Co. v. City of Los Angeles, 37 Cal.2d 696 (1951).

Please note that palpable unilateral mistakes will only make a contract voidable if the mistake is a mechanical error (ex: mistakes in calculation or perception). Mistakes in judgment as to the value or quality of an object will not make the contract voidable. For example:

George is the owner and manager of Babe’s Baseball Memorabilia. Mickey is rummaging through his attic one day when he finds a baseball bat signed by Ted Williams. Mickey, who is not a sports fan, has no idea who Ted Williams is but he remembers that there is a baseball memorabilia shop a few blocks away that buys things with signatures on them. Mickey brings the bat to George who offers Mickey $200 for it. Mickey gladly contracts with George to sell the bat for $200. A few weeks later, Mickey is telling Roger, an avid sports fan, about the bat and Roger informs Mickey that the bat was worth $5000. Unfortunately for Mickey, the contract he made with George is enforceable because Mickey’s mistake was not a palpable unilateral mistake. It was simply a mistake in judgment as to the value of the bat.

If the non-mistaken party either did not know, or had no reason to know, of the other party’s mistake, there is a binding contract. In this case, if the mistaken party discovers the mistake and refuses to perform, the non-mistaken party is entitled to damages.

Several modern cases, however, have determined that if the mistaken party notifies the other party of the mistake before the non-mistaken party relies on the mistake, the mistaken party can rescind the contract. ...."

http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/contracts/DefensesToFormation/Mistake.asp


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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

11 Jun 2015
11:11:49am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I was wondering if Canada and the UK use a similar "document" to the ever popular UCC (Uniform Commercial Code.)
Since the established body of British Common Law remained the basis for laws in the colonies after the Articles of Confederation were agreed to and logically after the Constitution was ratified most concepts should be very similar.
I would think that there would be similar laws in effect to facilitate commerce and commercial transactions.

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malcolm197

12 Jun 2015
11:37:47am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

My son works as a procurement manager for an American-owned multi-national company.

He has to be reasonably conversant with US contract law as well as with UK and EU law. They ARE different - and as he works for a US company there are certain instances where US law is applicable even where the transaction is between the UK subsidiary and another UK company.Obviously I can't give an example as Commercial Confidentiality is involved and it would be unethical for him to discuss the details with me and me with you, but there are times when he has to take legal advice from several sources.

I suspect that there are several cases where UK and EU companies with a presence in the US have come before US courts for things which here are completely legal whereas in the US they are not. Also I suspect that US law gives jurisdiction in other countries where US interests are involved in a way that is not given to courts in other countries. For example where extradition is concerned it is one way traffic - the US can extradite UK citizens from the UK while the reverse is palapably much more difficult.

The present shenanigans with FIFA appear to support the view that the US has more robust laws in certain areas than elsewhere. Several countries have been trying to pin something on FIFA for decades without success.

However we are talking about ethics and not the law here. It is commonly held that the Law has little to do with either ethics or fairness ( and even less so with justice - but that is another question).At the end of the day the only person who can make an ethical judgement is you based on your own moral orientation.

It is my interpretation that there are a few saints, probably slightly more sinners,but most people lie somewhere between the two - and we are back to my original proposition - it all depends. I am very wary of people who take a black and white view of right and wrong. Some rights are definitely white while some wrongs are definitely black. However the vast majority of both tend to be indeterminate shade of grey ( or gray in the US !!)

Malcolm

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sheepshanks
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12 Jun 2015
12:53:47pm
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think that we all make our judgement calls on a daily basis and what fits one situation may not fit the next. I probably would not identify a bargain when I saw one, so I no doubt lose out on some great items and overpay for others, but as long as I am pleased with my purchase thats fine.
What always amazes me as that the same people who decry burglars, muggers, murderers and other criminals are not adverse to breaking laws themselves, such as speeding, drinking/driving, texting and using mobile handhelds while driving. Doesn't that make us all lawbreakers, or are some laws Ok to break for some people.
Vic, now getting off my pet peeve.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

26 Nov 2016
01:35:18am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

Someone fifty or so comments back suggested an interesting point;
" .... You know, if I mis-ID a stamp, it's really my fault. ...."

By that logic a person speeding along a road who sees someone step off the curb, perhaps a Brit not used to the opposite direction of traffic here, or me struggling to safely cross a busy road in Southampton (In the day.), decides that hitting either pedestrian is just fine because he, or she, made a mistake, so the driver maintains course and speed just below the posted speed limit.

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philb
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26 Nov 2016
01:03:21pm

Auctions
re: An Ethical Dilemma

I'm a sinner !

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27 Nov 2016
08:19:18am
re: An Ethical Dilemma

An interesting discussion. Well-done, all.

Many of us share a tradition (a/k/a the Best Bronze Age Thinking on the subject) that obligates the return of lost property.

Interpreters of this rule have allowed an exception for materiality, eg, we need not run down the street shouting "Penny! Who dropped a penny?"

The return of lost property rule clearly does not apply to lots that are 'unpicked'. In this case, the seller has made the decision to not invest their time, and has invited the buyer to invest their time, and the investor gets the return (however generous).

But the obligation to return lost property clearly(-ish) applies to the innocent heir with an ancestor's album. In this case, by identifying something of value, we are returning a lost item to the estate of the owner.

Simple clerical mistakes are, to my mind, muddier waters. The bank's clerical error occurs because the bank did not invest the resources to prevent that error ... both the error in their favor, and the error in my favor.

Q/ When do the error-prone get to transfer their costs of doing business to me?

A/ When it is not business.

As noted above, dealer/collector relationships can get pretty personal, at which point all bets (and rules) are off.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

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Guthrum

29 May 2015
05:58:26am

Stamp collectors work to a budget, and will look for the lowest offer on a stamp, subject to the usual parameters. Then again, dealers know this, and while you may be able to save a few pence (or cents) by shopping around, prices are usually within an accepted range.

Very occasionally, though, a dealer makes a mistake, and one such came my way the other day. Here was a fairly pricey stamp ($27) which the dealer had entered into his lists at $2.70. (I compared the price with another online dealer: he had it at $29.) It was obviously a careless typing error, with a stray decimal point having crept in.

(I should say that these were UK dealers: I've converted to dollars for ease of understanding.)

I paid the cheaper price, but not without compunction: had I known this dealer personally, from regular business at stamp fairs, I would have been tempted at least to draw his attention to the price offered. As it is, it was a postal transaction and I did not.

Have you ever come across mistakes in your favour? (Many of you deal in stamps: have you ever made such mistakes yourself?) If I'm a stranger, I make you pay for your carelessness; if I'm a regular customer whom you know in person I alert you to your error.

That's not consistent. What would you expect, as a dealer? What would you have done, as a customer?


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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
29 May 2015
06:50:10am

Approvals

re: An Ethical Dilemma

10% of catalogue value is not much, but do you know if this dealer based his pricing on a certain catalogue? The differences in price levels between catalogues can be huge. If for instance you use Stanley Gibbons (known to be overpriced) and your dealer used Scott (known to be underpriced in many cases), the price the dealer used could still be 30 or 40% of c.v. This does not even take the exchange rates into account.
And then again, perhaps he bought the stamp for less than 5 cents, making a price of 2.70 still commercially sound.

From my own experience as a seller: I often buy small collections and then break them up. Not always do I check each and every stamp for its c.v. Often I do a superficial sort and then price the stamps in such a way I will make a profit if I sell a certain amount of stamps. If that means some stamps are underpriced, so be it. My loss. But not really, because I look at the collection as a whole, not at the single stamps.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
29 May 2015
07:18:15am

Auctions

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I typically share my great finds with the dealer and thank him for his generosity. The good dealers are typically ecstatic that a customer walks away happy.

I will also pull out items that I don't want, but that I know are undervalued, and give them a head's up. Sometimes they say, throw it back in; other times they are happy for the lesson and may, or not, change the price.

I've never had a dealer, except once, try to change the price AFTER the buyer holds it in his hand, and that dealer to this day is known to everyone as the guy who doubled his price at point of sale. Ask Phil or Craig and they'll know exactly of whom I speak. it's that kind of dealings that will kill a dealer.

knowlege is power; share it any way you wish.

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TuskenRaider

29 May 2015
08:03:00am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hi Everyone;

I once bought a CD on eBay listed for $2.00. When it arrived I noticed that the shipping was more
than the total price I paid. So several days later I e-mail him $3.00 via PayPal. He was surprised
and very grateful. I figure it may well have been a very naive kid just trying to learn the ropes.

Another time a lady tried to buy some jewellery from me on eBid.net, and tried to tell me how to
pack it to save on S&H. I politely declined selling to her, explaining that the seller is responsible for
the item if damaged in shipping due to bad packaging. And also told her politely to not tell me how
to operate my business. That felt really good, and I never regretted loosing that sale.

Some people are very bossy and pushy and I won't stand for that sort of thing.

Just Gloatin'....
TuskenRaider

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michael78651

29 May 2015
09:21:18am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I used to contact the sellers if I saw that they had mis-identified and/or over/under-priced an item based on how they had their other offerings priced. I don't do it that much anymore as I grew tired of the responses I got back from many sellers basically telling me to either buy it or go away, and to stay out of their business. I expected that from the thieves who intentionally over-price. However, many that made listing mistakes and were under-priced as a result had the same attitude. Of course there were the sellers who were appreciative of my contacting them too. That includes those who mistakenly over-priced their items too.

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Wanting to bring the joy of stamp collecting to younger generations
29 May 2015
10:45:46am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I've done some online selling before, not stamps. If you are running a business and selling something, it is your responsibility as the seller to check your listing. If someone buys your item for $5.00 and you meant to list it at $50.00, well too bad. you are obligated. You can't just say "oops that's actually $50 send me an extra $45" lol

And how is someone to know if that was an error in pricing, or a special deal in order to get new customers?

What about those people who go to garage sales and buy a painting for a few dollars just to find out its worth hundreds. Is it cheating the person who is selling it because they didn't know what they had? The owner could have done a little research online, or had it checked out by someone to see if it was worth something.... I guess it boils down to the saying "One Man's Trash is another's treasure"

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michael78651

29 May 2015
11:02:04am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

"I guess it boils down to the saying "One Man's Trash is another's treasure""



While that holds true, when it comes to selling, I think what you said before that is more true. Know what you have before you put a price tag on it. Too many people think that they have a fortune in what they are selling, because, as they love to state, "It's old". That applies to more than just stamps.
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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
29 May 2015
11:25:24am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

No Dilemma for me as a buyer. If a seller offers something for a price, and I'm willing to pay that price, it's a meeting of the minds. And in collectibles those who do their homework, and gain skill and knowledge, can snag a bargain.

Many years ago there was a dispute on eBay. A seller listed a handful of superhero figures for a few dollars. Someone, and only one person, saw that one of the figures was very rare. He bought the lot at opening bid. Then he listed the rare figure for $3000. The original seller saw that and went nuts, saying that he had been swindled. Um no, you profess to be a seller of these action figures, then you should've known the rare ones!

On the other hand, I once saw a $100 model kit for sale for $20 at a show. The vendor wasn't at the booth, so I paid his wife the $20. A few minutes later the vendor had tracked me down in the hall. He told me that a mistake had been made. The $20 sticker was from when he bought it many years ago and the $100 PostIt he had over it must've come off. I kinda knew the guy from going to shows, so I returned the kit to him and he gave me the $20 back. No, I wasn't going to force him to honor a mistake. I wouldn't have felt right about that. And the hobby is a very small pond!

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smauggie

29 May 2015
02:30:44pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Early in my re-entry into serious stamp collecting, I tried to fill some spots in my plate# block collection (which I have now completely given up collecting for). I had only met this dealer (really his representative) a couple of times before. During this visit I bought like $3 in platebllocks (real nickel and dime stuff). On my way out I was admiring my purchase when I noticed he had given me one too many plateblocks. I went back and gave it back, and that was the start of a beautiful friendship which lasted for the rest of his life.


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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 May 2015
08:22:31pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I see no particular dilemma, ethical or otherwise.

1.) " ... What would you have done, as a customer? ..."
That's easy, I'd offer the $2.70 along with a note stating that I'd like to buy it as offered provided that the offer was not a typo. I was once surprised in a reasonably similar situation concerning an approval dealer by the response that it was an error, but he'd stand behind it.
Not all that many years ago I was sitting at a dealer's counter picking out 10¢
hinged, used stamps from a dated album that I assumed the dealer had stripped of valuable issues.. I had a pile and finished that album so he handed me another one and I continued as we chatted, I think into a third album so the pile, even at 10¢ was close to $100.00 or so.
Truthfully he was distracted by another customer at times and interrupted by several phone calls. I had a large pile and it was time to close the shop.
I began counting the stamps in the pile when suddenly he looked and said " Oh, some of those have higher cats." So I said " Lets go through the pile and pull out anything you want to keep." We did and he chose about twenty or thirty to sell for more, we settled up and I left with a lot of good stamps.
I began to be concerned that we had rushed at the end of his open hours as not only was he closing, but I had to be on my way, so I brought the whole pile, by then in 102 cards and told him that we had been rushed and I would be much happier if he took his time to be sure about the deal. He did glance at a few of them for a moment but then said, he was fine with the sale.
As far as I know he still operates one of the few brick and mortar shops in Fort Pierce, Florida

2.) ".... What would you expect, as a dealer?...."
Honesty, from my customer to match my honesty as a seller.

3.) "...it is your responsibility as the seller to check your listing. ..."
True enough, but it is my responsibility to be able to sleep at night.

Another time a few years ago I mistakenly inserted two bills, a $20 and a $100, in a darkened car as we were passing the post office to pay for a two kilo lot of Machins from a London bulk stamp dealer. A few days later I wondered where I had cashed the $100 bill but did not associate it with that mailing. Some two weeks later I received a note returning most of the overage along with the promise to send the rest as soon as he acquired enough US currency. That was easy, I just ordered another lot and eventually it all arrived with the balance in the parcel.

In some fifty years of stamping as an adult I have come across numerous dealers who are scrupulously honest, and if I've been cheated I don't recall it.

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malcolm197

31 May 2015
07:43:33am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

There is no simple answer to this. There has been a similar discussion on another board with a whole gamut of answers fom one extreme to the other. Surprisingly perhaps ( or not) a known "savvy" dealer was one of those who took the view that the dealers mistake is the dealers mistake. However what he did say is that he buys at "his" price, mArks up and sells at "his" profit so he has not in fact lost out, but made a modest and not exorbitant profit.
That is OK as far as it goes. You can say that someone who makes their living by buying or selling is obligated to make sure that they are "selling" at aprice acceptable to both the buyer and the vendor.

The problem comes with private( and Stamporama or similar) buys and sales (or trades) - or transactions with those dealers where the relationship overspills from business into friendship. There it becomes an issue not of honesty but of "fairness" however one wishes to define that. We are then into the realms of individual ethics and morals. I admit that while I might be willing to overlook a mistakenly low price from an "anonymous" dealer - I would be uncomfortable with an amateur ( who could be anticipated to be uninformed) or a dealer I "liked" for want of a better word.

I suppose the best answer is the standard cop-out "it all depends..."

Malcolm

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snowy12

31 May 2015
09:17:59am

Auctions

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I Remember a few years ago winning an auction for a page of Belgium railway stamps all mint never hinged.
The dealer had a few more sets up for sale of the same material.When my lots arrived still on the sheet I turned it over and the other sets he was selling were on the other side.
They were worth more than the one's I had won,by a fair sum .
I emailed the dealer who was in the US and told them what had happened ,after a few days I received a reply,thanking me for my honesty and to keep the stamps.
Wow was I a happy chappy.
Brian

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TuskenRaider

02 Jun 2015
11:18:37pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hi Everyone;

It would not matter to me if an "anonymous" dealer or a good friend on here, I could not take
advantage of someone's mistake, because it doesn't seem to be fair. Maybe I'm old school,
but that is the way I was brought up by my folks.

So for me it is simple, no moral or Ethical Dilemma at all.

Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
03 Jun 2015
05:15:44pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I agree with ken, I still see it as an ethical situation, but see no dilemma.
What is right is right and what is wrong is simply wrong.
Taking advantage of someone's mistake is the latter, and can never be the former.


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thebiggnome

03 Jun 2015
05:52:24pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think I fail to see the real dilemma. I routinely win lots on ebay for 10% of the catalog value or less. (In fact, I rarely bid more than that.) This guy just cut out the middleman and saved the ebay fee...

Chris, with perhaps a bit of tongue in my cheek

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Guthrum

03 Jun 2015
06:03:10pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

So you would have returned the stamp, or rather not bought it at all? Or bought it from the other dealer at the higher price?

We seem to be about evenly divided here between those who would buy, those who would not, and those who wouldn't if they knew the guy but would if they didn't.

Here's the stamp in question.

Image Not Found

Manolis Glezos, a Greek resistance fighter, still alive today. How much is he worth in Scott?

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larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
03 Jun 2015
06:18:41pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think if you pay the listed price, there is no problem. The only dilemma is if you suspect the price is too low and you are THINKING about notifying the seller instead of buying it. Alanna provided several good examples as to why the price may be set improperly. If I knew the seller and thought he had goofed, I would tell him. Otherwise, it's not my job to educate a seller. If I see a bargain I pounce! I really don't see a problem with the strategy employed by Guthrum. It's not my job to validate a seller's pricing, but if I know them I might do a FAVOR by letting them know what I saw in case they want to fix it before someone else pounces. And I sleep very well at night!

Lars

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
03 Jun 2015
08:07:52pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

The funny part... this is a hobby where every collector's dream is to find a British Guinea 1 penny in a stamp packet! And in that dream it was never mentioned that we needed to give the stamp back to the packet stuffing company!

And it's sport to go shopping for bargains. Heck, I troll eBay for cheap stuff nearly daily. In the Postal History / Covers category, I'll see a 1906 Puerto Rico or Indian Territory cancel cancel for $30, so I head over to the Postcard category and since the dealer is focused on the picture side of the card, I find both for less than $5 each. Is it my duty to hold some sort of seminar for postcard dealers so they can identify and profit from another hobby that they chose to ignore?

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TribalErnie

03 Jun 2015
08:22:55pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I gotta weigh in on this....

For me alot of the fun of the hobby comes from finding the best possible stamp at the best possible price. I buy early used US singles. These are not usually the kind of stamps found in lots or packets. I'm exploring ways to enjoy the hobby like thst but I digress.
I can't find any ethical dilemma when something is offered at a price and when that price is paid item received.

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hs2oca

03 Jun 2015
08:47:08pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Have you ever come across mistakes in your favour?

Not that I'm aware of! But then I'm new enough to collecting I haven't memorized catalogue values. I tend to trust my dealer...a lot.

(Many of you deal in stamps: have you ever made such mistakes yourself?)

I'm just starting and am continually making blunders in the selling arena. I do not have all the tools to properly id my stamps due to budget constraints. I rely on my local stamp club and stamp club members to help me. Unfortunately I do feel I was taken advantage of the other evening. But it's my own fault, so I really cannot complain. It was the attitude of the man who bought my discounted stamps that irritated me most. I told him he could buy for the prices in the album and even make me a deal. Which he did, but in a sly snarky kind of voice which, honestly, made me want to say 'no' to him. But a deal is a deal, and I just wanted to get rid of a bunch of those stamps. If he thought I was an idiot for selling so low, why not educate me instead of being rude?

What would you expect, as a dealer?

You know, if I mis-ID a stamp, it's really my fault. But I have to admit that I would love training in how to properly ID stamps, and I think that means finding the right books, having the right tools and equipment, and knowing the current market value for the stamps I'm selling. Ideally it would mean an apprenticeship with a trained philatelist, whatever that is! But I know there are people in the club who have far more knowledge than I do, that I'd like to gain experience from. I'm hoping by going to the stamp meetings and being on online boards that I can learn enough to not appear too much of a doofus (as we say here).

What would you have done, as a customer?

I would have asked the dealer if that was the correct price. But that's me. I'd rather sleep well at night.

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cocollectibles

04 Jun 2015
12:32:00pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Well ... I see neither an ethical issue nor a dilemma here. If a dealer lists an item for a price, that is the price at which they are selling this item. Anything more is YOUR inference as to why that item is priced as it is or for how much it "should be" priced.

Consider these scenarios:

1. You go to a store to buy something usually priced around $50 and find it with a tag for $5.

2. An airline posts a fare of $199 from New York to London, which usually runs at $600 or higher.

I bet that in each of these cases you would NOT contact the store clerk or airline representative to see if this is REALLY the price they meant, but instead would snatch up those deals. Why no "dilemma" here?

I've been on the other end of this situation where, because of inattention, laziness, being rushed, whatever reason, I mis-priced items on eBay and they were scooped up quickly and I'm sure, with glee. I wrote off each loss as my mistake.

Peter

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04 Jun 2015
04:57:07pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: An Ethical Dilemma

The beauty of the stamp hobby is that no one knows everything about everything, Whether it's scarce color variations of common stamps or scarce postal history items the average show can be a treasure trove for specialists. Whenever I sit down at a dollar cover box I'm asked "What are you looking for?" I honestly can't say because I am looking for anything out of the ordinary: Scarce DPO's, grilled banknotes, scarce usages, scarce destinations, routings, scarce machine cancels, content, US Scott #25's, etc. I've watched a friend flipping through a dollar box pull out a Great Britain cover - I said "What's that" - he said "it's a Charles Dickens cover". I do the same with stampless letters sent by Gerrit Smith - the penmanship is distinctive. Control markings of private perfs are another thing that can be found - some catalog several hundred dollars. Letters to important people, it's all there at every show and most of it is sold for a small percentage of it's identified worth.......

Knowledge is the key -

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Ningpo

04 Jun 2015
10:37:05pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

There may be a slightly different slant to this. By my understanding, the seller had the opportunity to cancel the sale, if he had noticed a pricing error at the point you placed the order and paid.

Now it may differ in other countries but here in the UK our Sale of Goods Act permits a seller to refuse to sell goods if an error in pricing has been made, as long as the goods are either withdrawn completely, or re-priced immediately; and for long distance selling: regardless of whether payment has been accepted. A seller may act in this way up to the point of fulfilling the sale (delivery). I am assuming here that this law applies to sellers who operate from a platform such as eBay, or similar. Which it should.

So, the seller had two opportunities to get things right: when listing it in the first place and second; by refusing to sell at that price when the order was placed.

I dare say this probably will not clear your conscience though.

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Guthrum

05 Jun 2015
05:12:08pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Oh it does, it does!

I am a humble buyer; I don't do selling. The other chap (or multi-million pound corporate enterprise) is a seller, a dealer with massive internet presence. No contest. I took him for a mighty fifteen pounds. Possibly. Nobody's told me the Scott value.

The point was abstractly ethical. I would not have done this to Andy or Howard, who sort of know me. I did do it to some chap (or corporation etc.) who does not. If that is not a dilemma, it is at least a moral inconsistency. It's been interesting to read the reactions of members.

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thebiggnome

05 Jun 2015
05:23:03pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

If you are making the distinction between protecting friends and perceivedly taking advantage of strangers, there is a scientific reason for it. There is an evolutionary advantage to protecting members of one's own clan, tribe, group, family, whatever. Those with whom we have close contact become de facto family members in our minds and we naturally look out for them.

Chris

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larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
05 Jun 2015
05:34:26pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

"there is a scientific reason for it"



Chris, you are correct in the sub-conscious sense of evolutionary biology, but for me there is also the conscious decision that I would likely point out the error to someone I know with the knowledge that it would quite likely be repaid, or at least paid forward. I have no such expectation of a stranger or inanimate corporation.

Lars

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thebiggnome

05 Jun 2015
05:37:43pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Of course, humans have the capability of using our brains to override whatever instinctual urges we feel; we may be driven by them, but we are not bound by them. They do explain Ian's remorse (or lack of it).

Chris

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usrevenues

08 Jun 2015
10:44:15pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I have zero reservations about cherrypicking. It's part of the game. I have seen dealers cherrypick other dealers. It happens all the time.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
09 Jun 2015
08:50:04am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

"I have seen dealers cherrypick other dealers. It happens all the time."



I suspect this happens in all hobbies. In the antique arena, they sell "floor rights" to greedy dealers who pretty much pay the same price they would've for a table to be able to walk the hall and scoop up bargains while the dealers are setting up.

In the model car hobby, the more seasoned dealers will descend on a hobbyist guy who has taken a table to sell off some of his duplicates. They'll hard ball him with prices and his stuff will be at their tables marked up to double before the show doors even open. I've literally seen empty tables at shows where a dealer just bought the guy out completely.

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copy55555

09 Jun 2015
05:15:16pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I actually do not see a problem with buying items for far less than their retail value if the seller set the price and accepts payment.

I recently read an article where a person cleared out old electronics from their garage and dropped them off a recycling center. Appears one of the items was a rare early Apple computer. The recycling center sold it for $200k and is offering to give half ($100k) to the person who dropped it off if they can be located. That was very nice of the center but you notice that they didn't offer $200k minus scrap value plus costs. It was the recycling center's expertise that saved it from ending up as scrap not the person's who dropped it off. So what is the ethical dilemma, if any?

I'm sure all of us have examples of buying something at a flea market or auction or stamp show for a very favorable price and later finding out that it was very very favorable. A Picasso under a 4 yr old's finger painting, a mint block of US #1's tucked between pages 122 and 123 in Stephen King's 1st edition of "It," a bottle full of quarters in a public auction box lot for $2 because you like the old stapler was in it.

No, I didn't find a Picasso or a block of 1's. Not even a used block or a used single. I did find the bottle of quarters after arriving home. The stapler was broken, though. I did not return the lot and didn't feel I was cheating anyone. Or should I have?

Speaking of those greedy dealers who go to antique shows early to scoop up bargains - such is the nature of the business. I believe many flea markets and antique shows sell expensive ($50) tickets to get on the floor a day early. I'm sure that many stamp shows have a dealer only night before the show opens.

If I attend a public auction and spot a Sholes & Glidden typewriter with an opening bid of $100, I will be happy to jump in. If none of the other bidders know anything about vintage typewriters and run the bid up to only $150 or $200, I will be happy to buy it and bring it home. It would not be my job to stand up and inform the crowd that this is one of the first machines produced in the 1870's and is worth several thousand dollars or more. Or should I? No, I never came across a Sholes.

This was a bit longer than I planned.

Tad

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Guthrum

09 Jun 2015
06:59:28pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Perhaps it's time to move the discussion along to something along the lines of: What's the best unexpected bonus you've experienced when buying stamps?

Unfortunately, I don't think anything in my collection would qualify - or perhaps I should say that I wouldn't recognise it even if it actually were to exist somewhere in my stockbooks.

The same does not go for books, and I have a bought a couple over the years with autographs or inscriptions which the seller clearly didn't spot, or value. When offering a copy of Stolen Journey, by Oliver Philpot, on a well-known internet mart for 1p, the seller didn't realise that the author had autographed a dedication on the title page, signing off with "29 Oct 1968 (25 yrs to the day!)". Oliver Philpot was the lesser known of the Wooden Horse escapers (Eric Williams wrote the more popular account) from Stalag Luft III in, of course, October 1943.

If you like foreign films, some of you may remember French filmstar Delphine Seyrig or director Louis Malle, who sometime before 1970 co-autographed (for some reason) an entirely unrelated book I picked up for 3/6.

No doubt any one of these three is now worth, oh, $5 at least!

But back to stamps - have you ever struck lucky without immediately realising it?

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cocollectibles

09 Jun 2015
07:44:53pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I suspect this new branch will be moved to a new topic, but until then ...

Yes! I have had a nice surprise or two in my bulk purchases. There was a UK seller on eBay, the Ten-O'Clock Show, who once had large clearance boxes of unsorted lots(GB, Commonwealth, Asia, etc.); in one I purchased I found a small box containing a few dozen GB Queen Victoria stamps, including about a half-dozen Penny Blacks! In an Asian box I found several HK stamps with interesting cancels (treaty ports; some foreign cancels on HK stamps).

I love such surprises but they are quite uncommon.

Peter

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larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
09 Jun 2015
10:16:46pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Hopefully Noernberg will retell his tale of finding a complete set of Zeppelins in the back of a stockbook that he purchased for a pittance!!!

Lars

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
09 Jun 2015
11:17:13pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

"If I attend a public auction and spot a Sholes & Glidden typewriter with an opening bid of $100, I will be happy to jump in. If none of the other bidders know anything about vintage typewriters and run the bid up to only $150 or $200, I will be happy to buy it and bring it home. It would not be my job to stand up and inform the crowd that this is one of the first machines produced in the 1870's and is worth several thousand dollars or more. Or should I? No, I never came across a Sholes."



Just the opposite. I'd stand up and tell the crowd that it's worthless since the monitor is missing! Winking

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Jun 2015
08:40:18am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Here is a news flash for those who believe that they are under no obligation to ascertain that the seller is aware of the true value of his item.
I remember a case in contract law where a situation like that occurred. It is called a "Unilateral mistake" and the seller upon learning that the buyer knew that the item was worth significantly more and an honest mistake had been made by the seller there was a suit filed, the sale was cancelled.
I am also pretty sure that in one of his books, Herman Hurst writes of just such a situation concerning a stamp sale in the 1930s.

If I can find my copy of Praust and Upp on the law of contracts I'd copy the citation.

Here is a decent explanation of the law under which such a contract is voidable.



Unilateral Mistake

".....A unilateral mistake is a mechanical error of calculation or perception concerning a basic assumption on which the contract is formed. For example:

The Boston Red Sox and Ramon Garcia orally negotiate a contract where Garcia will play for the Red Sox and the Red Sox will pay him $15,000. During the negotiation, Garcia thought he heard the Red Sox say $50,000. This is a unilateral mistake.


The general rule involving unilateral mistakes is that, if the non-mistaken party either knew or should have known of the other party’s mistake, the mistake is a “palpable unilateral mistake” which makes the contract voidable by the mistaken party. For example:

The Pentagon is accepting bids from ship building companies to build a new aircraft carrier. Ten different companies submit bids. Nine of those bids range in price from $140 million to $150 million. The tenth bid, belonging to Seven Seas Shipbuilding Inc., comes in at $43 million. The Pentagon quickly signs Seven Seas to the contract. The next day, Seven Seas reviews its bid submission and discovers some calculating errors that resulted in their bid being $43 million when it should have been $136 million. In this case, the contract will be voidable by Seven Seas. The fact that there was a $97 million difference between Seven Seas’ bid and the next lowest bid should have been a clear indication to the Pentagon that Seven Seas had made a mistake somewhere. Therefore, the Pentagon either
knew or should have known that Seven Seas made a mistake. That being the case, the mistake was a palpable unilateral mistake and Seven Seas can void the contract. See M.F. Kemper Construction Co. v. City of Los Angeles, 37 Cal.2d 696 (1951).

Please note that palpable unilateral mistakes will only make a contract voidable if the mistake is a mechanical error (ex: mistakes in calculation or perception). Mistakes in judgment as to the value or quality of an object will not make the contract voidable. For example:

George is the owner and manager of Babe’s Baseball Memorabilia. Mickey is rummaging through his attic one day when he finds a baseball bat signed by Ted Williams. Mickey, who is not a sports fan, has no idea who Ted Williams is but he remembers that there is a baseball memorabilia shop a few blocks away that buys things with signatures on them. Mickey brings the bat to George who offers Mickey $200 for it. Mickey gladly contracts with George to sell the bat for $200. A few weeks later, Mickey is telling Roger, an avid sports fan, about the bat and Roger informs Mickey that the bat was worth $5000. Unfortunately for Mickey, the contract he made with George is enforceable because Mickey’s mistake was not a palpable unilateral mistake. It was simply a mistake in judgment as to the value of the bat.

If the non-mistaken party either did not know, or had no reason to know, of the other party’s mistake, there is a binding contract. In this case, if the mistaken party discovers the mistake and refuses to perform, the non-mistaken party is entitled to damages.

Several modern cases, however, have determined that if the mistaken party notifies the other party of the mistake before the non-mistaken party relies on the mistake, the mistaken party can rescind the contract. ...."

http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/contracts/DefensesToFormation/Mistake.asp


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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
11 Jun 2015
11:11:49am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I was wondering if Canada and the UK use a similar "document" to the ever popular UCC (Uniform Commercial Code.)
Since the established body of British Common Law remained the basis for laws in the colonies after the Articles of Confederation were agreed to and logically after the Constitution was ratified most concepts should be very similar.
I would think that there would be similar laws in effect to facilitate commerce and commercial transactions.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
malcolm197

12 Jun 2015
11:37:47am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

My son works as a procurement manager for an American-owned multi-national company.

He has to be reasonably conversant with US contract law as well as with UK and EU law. They ARE different - and as he works for a US company there are certain instances where US law is applicable even where the transaction is between the UK subsidiary and another UK company.Obviously I can't give an example as Commercial Confidentiality is involved and it would be unethical for him to discuss the details with me and me with you, but there are times when he has to take legal advice from several sources.

I suspect that there are several cases where UK and EU companies with a presence in the US have come before US courts for things which here are completely legal whereas in the US they are not. Also I suspect that US law gives jurisdiction in other countries where US interests are involved in a way that is not given to courts in other countries. For example where extradition is concerned it is one way traffic - the US can extradite UK citizens from the UK while the reverse is palapably much more difficult.

The present shenanigans with FIFA appear to support the view that the US has more robust laws in certain areas than elsewhere. Several countries have been trying to pin something on FIFA for decades without success.

However we are talking about ethics and not the law here. It is commonly held that the Law has little to do with either ethics or fairness ( and even less so with justice - but that is another question).At the end of the day the only person who can make an ethical judgement is you based on your own moral orientation.

It is my interpretation that there are a few saints, probably slightly more sinners,but most people lie somewhere between the two - and we are back to my original proposition - it all depends. I am very wary of people who take a black and white view of right and wrong. Some rights are definitely white while some wrongs are definitely black. However the vast majority of both tend to be indeterminate shade of grey ( or gray in the US !!)

Malcolm

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sheepshanks

12 Jun 2015
12:53:47pm

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I think that we all make our judgement calls on a daily basis and what fits one situation may not fit the next. I probably would not identify a bargain when I saw one, so I no doubt lose out on some great items and overpay for others, but as long as I am pleased with my purchase thats fine.
What always amazes me as that the same people who decry burglars, muggers, murderers and other criminals are not adverse to breaking laws themselves, such as speeding, drinking/driving, texting and using mobile handhelds while driving. Doesn't that make us all lawbreakers, or are some laws Ok to break for some people.
Vic, now getting off my pet peeve.

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26 Nov 2016
01:35:18am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

Someone fifty or so comments back suggested an interesting point;
" .... You know, if I mis-ID a stamp, it's really my fault. ...."

By that logic a person speeding along a road who sees someone step off the curb, perhaps a Brit not used to the opposite direction of traffic here, or me struggling to safely cross a busy road in Southampton (In the day.), decides that hitting either pedestrian is just fine because he, or she, made a mistake, so the driver maintains course and speed just below the posted speed limit.

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philb

26 Nov 2016
01:03:21pm

Auctions

re: An Ethical Dilemma

I'm a sinner !

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ikeyPikey

27 Nov 2016
08:19:18am

re: An Ethical Dilemma

An interesting discussion. Well-done, all.

Many of us share a tradition (a/k/a the Best Bronze Age Thinking on the subject) that obligates the return of lost property.

Interpreters of this rule have allowed an exception for materiality, eg, we need not run down the street shouting "Penny! Who dropped a penny?"

The return of lost property rule clearly does not apply to lots that are 'unpicked'. In this case, the seller has made the decision to not invest their time, and has invited the buyer to invest their time, and the investor gets the return (however generous).

But the obligation to return lost property clearly(-ish) applies to the innocent heir with an ancestor's album. In this case, by identifying something of value, we are returning a lost item to the estate of the owner.

Simple clerical mistakes are, to my mind, muddier waters. The bank's clerical error occurs because the bank did not invest the resources to prevent that error ... both the error in their favor, and the error in my favor.

Q/ When do the error-prone get to transfer their costs of doing business to me?

A/ When it is not business.

As noted above, dealer/collector relationships can get pretty personal, at which point all bets (and rules) are off.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

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