Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
09:49:26am
BTW, does anyone know why it was deemed important to issue a stamp on the 80th Anniversary of the Pony Express? Seems an odd number to me. I am used to 50th, 75th, 100th, etc. Don't think I've ever seen an 80th.
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According to the United States Postal Slogan Cancel Catalog by Moe Luff 1975 Edition, this slogan cancel was used in the 1924-1952 time frame.
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Bobby...try this link
http://arago.si.edu/index.asp?con=1&cmd=1&tid=2028688
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-26 11:57:17)
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Awesome stamp Bobby. Ironic indeed!
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I think it's unlikely that that cancellation was in use in 1924. The design looks very much like the DC-1/DC-2/DC-3 series of airliners, which first flew in 1934. Before that time, most airliners were boxy affairs, made of wood and cloth rather than metal, and were rarely if ever represented by pictorial cancellations. Here's a New Zealand stamp showing the DC-3; as you can tell, there are a lot of similarities between the DC-3 and the airliner pictured in your cancellation:
Among the few hundred airmail covers I have, there are only two other pictorial cancellations showing airliners, and those were in use after the Second World War in Canada, and both look like they were designed for use by Mickey Mouse.
Pictorial cancellations showing aircraft were in use in 1924 through 1928, at least, but they show the Curtis Jenny (I think), which was used as a mail plane in the U.S. in the 1920s. Here are two covers from my collection showing that cancellation:
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I think I’ve got it — the reason the Pony Express stamp was issued in 1940. In that year, in connection with a new movie filmed in Old Tucson, the “Old Tucson Post Office†was re-opened, apparently precipitating the issuance of the stamp. See Pony Express run re-enacted at 1940 Old Tucson Festival.
Bob
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Bob,
Very nice C11 First Day cover you have there!
Especially with the bi-plane cancel, which was the actual plane in the photograph used as the reference for the design of the stamp, as you probably know.
Too bad they felt the need to change it to a single wing; I liked it better the other way.
Randy
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FDC? Scott says that C11 was issued on July 25, not August 1. Darn! You got my hopes up, Randy. Now Scott has dashed them!
You're right about the stamp image being a monoplane. I'd never really thought about that, since my main aviation interest is in propeller airliners, not smaller planes. I scanned one of my copies of C11 to get a better look at the airplane image:
A biplane would have made more sense, since, as far as I know, there weren't any monoplanes flying the U.S. mails in 1928. I could be wrong about that.
Does anyone know if the cancellation image represents an actual aircraft? It sorta looks like a Curtis J-4 Jenny, but not quite.
Now here's something interesting. I have 18 or so examples of the biplane cancellation. I was just looking more closely at them than I ever have before, and noticed two different versions!:
And (I'll be darned, or not very observant!) here's yet another variety!:
No doubt someone has done an exhibit about this cancellation (these cancellations).
Bob
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Bob,
You are correct regarding the issue date of July 25th; however, the rate change (drop) did not take effect until Aug 1st, therefore any usage of the C11 BEFORE the 1st had to be accompanied by other postage to cover the difference.
So, the cover you have is the first day of the NEW rate, when it was allowed to be used without additional postage.
I have an article on here regarding that stamp, which is my favorite US issue
Randy
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"No doubt someone has done an exhibit about this cancellation (these cancellations)."
While not an exhibit, this Scribblings article from the Rocky Mountain Philatelic Library provides a good deal of background on these slogan cancels.
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11:48:05am
Ahhhh, the days of yore when postage rates actually decreased now and then! 
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"I have an article on here regarding that stamp, which is my favorite US issue"
Here's another:
Collector turns up unusual usages of the 5¢ Beacon airmail stamp
http://www.linns.com/en/insights/us-stamps-and-postal-history/2014/10/collector-turns-up-unusual-usages-of-the-5-beacon-.html
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-27 17:01:21)
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"Ahhhh, the days of yore when postage rates actually decreased now and then!"
Actually May 31, 2015, saw a drop in postage rates. The tracking fee ($1.05) for First Class Parcel, Media Mai, Library Mail, and any other domestic parcel service that already didn't have it provided, was eliminated.
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All but three examples of the biplane cancellation in my collection seem to be identical to this one, first shown to you earlier in this thread:
I'm going to keep my eyes open for the various versions and varieties that are mentioned in the article tomiseksj provided a link for.
Bob
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Hi Everyone;
I smell a new cancellation collection in somebodies future!
Good catch Bob, I never noticed those differences before, darn now I gotta check all mine!
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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Bob,
The "Air Mail Saves Time" slogan cancel has been widely researched. It is perhaps the most popular US slogan. There are several publications. To get started, I recommend the Aero-Marcophilately volume by the Machine Cancel Society (should be readily available to date).
The cuts you are showing are unfortunately worthless to a postmark collector. Generally entires are preferred, but if you only have a cut, at a minimum the cut needs to include the actually postmarking dial, so that the city can be identified. Someone cut these to be soaked as kiloware, not to preserve the cancellation.
The two major varieties, which can be distinguished by how the tires are attached to the plane, signify the slogan used on "Universal" machines (your 15) or "International" machines (your 3). The postmarking dials of these two machine types are a lot more distinctively different than this small difference in the drawing of the air plane. If you had the entire cancels, it would be very obvious to tell which one is which.
The International slogan dies were hand-engraved and show significant differences which allow specialists to track where specific dies were used. This exhibit probably has more than you ever want to know about the International dies.
To get started, you may want to find one from every city. Next, perhaps all the different machine numbers from each city. Then you may wish to add any die differences of the postmarking dial, and lastly you can fly-speck the die differences of the slogan.
Arno
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I looked at the exhibit that Arno provided a link to. Oh wow. Who knew? Last night I was thinking, yeah, an exhibit would be fun to put together. Now those dreams have been dashed. Instead, I'm seeing a very simple web page in my future, and perhaps an occasional purchase of a cover, assuming I can find one. I would need a great deal more money, time, patience, and even interest to pursue anything more complex.
I'm reminded of a one-frame exhibit at VANPEX a few years ago. As I recall it featured just one Canadian or perhaps U.S. definitive stamp, perhaps a KGV "Admiral" or one of the Washington-Franklins. It wasn't about usage, or constant-plate varieties, or shades. The collector's primary concern was the thickness of the paper used. Using a micrometer, he had found dozens of different thicknesses of the same stamp. I think he won a silver medal, perhaps vermeil. As I recall, the judges were impressed but criticized him for not providing information about the significance of the differing paper thicknesses. Just as I couldn't possibly commit myself to building an exhibit based on the thickness of stamps, neither could I manage to build an exhibit with the detail shown in the "Air-Mail Saves Time" exhibit. I have the greatest respect for any collector who manages such achievement, but I'm never going to be one of those collectors!
I did a bit of searching on eBay last night for "Air-Mail Saves Time" cancellations, and found a few cut squares (also called "2 X 4s" I believe, based on their very approximate 2:4 dimensions) and a few entires, mostly priced in the $7 - $20 range. If I do a web page, I might include some similar U.S. and Australian cancellations.
On an auction web site, I found this "rather nice" cover; fortunately, it had been sold so I didn't have to bid on it!
Bob
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The op's image in my mind- NICE!
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Hi Rhinelander;
Hate to burst your bubble (no I don't). I've sold dozens of stamps on here to postmark
collectors with fancy/town cancels without any 'cut' or attached paper at all. No entires
either. I've even sold several cut squares of postal cards. Which I've been told are not
collectible. I dare you to tell that to my buyers.
If you want to state such stuffed-shirt rules on here then please include a disclaimer, to
new collectors that it is fine to collect whatever they so choose. I listen to my buyers and
list what they ask for. Guess what....it usually sells in less than 48 hours. That is because
I didn't listen to the 'experts' but to the real experts....my buyers.
No disrespect to you sir, as I'm sure that is the way you were taught. If on the other hand,
you want to collect with the intention of an exhibit, then you are right and I am wrong, and
then the stuffed-shirt rules apply.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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05:56:08am
Ken, before this gets out of hand, may I remind you we treat one another with respect on on SOR. Referring to another member as a "stuffed shirt" is certainly not respectful. Obviously your opinion and Rhinelander's differ, but name calling is not conducive to productive argument. Rhinelander is entitled to his opinions as are you, but keep the discussion civil.
Bobby
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@ Bob
I am not sure about the AMST covers you found mostly priced in the $7 - $20 range on ebay. These postmarks are typically $1 box items. The slogan was used for years on any regular mail to promote air mail service. However, the slogan was also used purposefully on the occasion of special flight events. For instance, the Detroit cover you show, signed by Charles Lindbergh. In these cases, you have to consider what you are actually buying. As always, postal history items can be different things to different people. If you want the postmark only, you may not want to pay a premium for the Lindbergh signature. This is, BTW, an "International" machine which has the year engraved in a half-circle at the bottom of the dial. The "Universal" machines, one example is shown by tomiseksj from Springfield, Ill, has the year inside the dial and the state at the bottom of the dial.
If you stick to one example each from each town, or at most include different machine numbers in the dial, such as Detroit '4', or Boston, Mass. 'A', shown above, it could still be a very simple, yet challenging, collection. Lists of existing towns are readily available. No need to get into the flyspecking of re-engraved dies, shown in the exhibit. Very few people collect postmarks at that level, similarly to very few people collecting stamps at that level.
Arno
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My plans, which are not more than daydreams at this point, are to collect just the boxed portion of the cancellations in a few obvious varieties. If better items, including entires, come my way, so much the better. I enjoy building web pages which point out little-known "philatelic curiosities" that other collectors and non-collectors might find interesting.
Along the same lines is another web page I'd like to do someday, showing stamps, overprints, and some pictorial cancellations featuring airplanes with design flaws that prevent them from getting off the ground, much less flying. It would combine detail images of some stamps in my collection, along with information about the science of flight, which many stamp designers in the 1920s and 1930s and even later apparently knew little about. Here an example — aircraft generally need horizontal stabilizers and elevators to control pitch!:
In fact, the biplane cancellations that we've been discussing have some design issues, among them "free-floating" axels unsupported by struts, the fuselage offset slightly to the right, and a propeller with one blade considerably shorter than the other.
About the Lindbergh cover: I realize that has value (and a lot of value, at that) only because of Lindbergh's signature. The stamp and cancellation are just frosting on the cake. But I would never have bid on it anyway, because there are many other covers and stamps I would far rather have.
I agree, those eBay prices are, like so much on eBay, just plain ridiculous.
Bob
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Hi Arno;
The 'stuffed shirt' remark was not intended to refer to anyone, you included. My apologies if it
was perceived that way.
It was referring to boring rules especially exhibit rules, which has kept many collectors from
even considering entering items or collections into so called exhibits. The only rules I go by are
what I like to collect and how....and secondly what do my buyers ask for me to provide them.
I like the way bobstamp does his web pages, his way and his rules, and they look great. Very
professional looking and a fun easy read.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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"... an "International" machine ... has the year engraved in a half-circle at the bottom of the dial. The "Universal" machines ... has the year inside the dial and the state at the bottom of the dial ..."
Oops! Mine has the state in the dial and the slogan at the bottom, perhaps because it was set-up specifically for a show substation.
What's the message behind that diving single-winger in the show cachet?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Thank you, TuskenRaider, for the compliment about my web pages. I'd like to add that I've approached exhibiting in much the same way that I determine the content of my web pages, and how they're designed: I like them both to be uncluttered and easy to read; web pages should be easy to navigate. But I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll start a new one about exhibiting.
Bob
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Hi everyone;
@ babstamp;
Maybe you should do a small website about the variations in Slogan cancels. Not necessarily
showing all the varieties, but just illustrating that there are differences and give new collectors
on here a few ideas for starting their own specialized collections.
I'm sure that many other slogan cancels have differences that nobody has noticed. Until you
mentioned it I was not aware of all the Jennies variations. There must be just as many on
some of the others.
Rather than having to find and buy all those examples, I'm sure members on here would be
glad to give you scans of ones that you are missing so you can fill in the missing bits. I think
this is a lot more fun that plating a sheet of stamps, which usually requires advanced know-
ledge. These differences you pointed out are easy, even for beginners to spot, with very little
time and experience at stamps.
Just thinkin'....
TuskenRaider
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@ ikeyPikey
Perhaps I should have said that the state is "typically" at the bottom of a Universal machine cancellation . The key difference is that the International machines have the year curved at the bottom of the rim whereas the year is inside the dial of Universals. In the case of stations and otherwise busy cancels with lots of information to fit in the dial, the state can occasionally move to the top at times. Nice item, in any event. Also, welcome here on SOR!
As to your question, I do not own all volumes of the American Air Mail Catalogue, and also I am traveling and therefore cannot check right now, but if an answer to your question can be found from readily available resources, someone perhaps could check the AAMC.
@ tuskenraider
No worries.
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A minor-ish point about the American Air Mail Catalogue: As with any resource, it should be used with caution. Ninety-nine percent of the information it contains is probably accurate, but it's always worth attempting to find other sources to confirm it.
A cover in my collection was recovered from the crash of a KLM DC-2 airliner in 1934. The first reference I found to the crash was in one of the AAMC volumes; although I didn't realize it at the time, the AAMC was wildly incorrect in the "facts" it presented. The catalogue had the type of aircraft and the airline correct (a Douglas DC-2 owned by KLM), as well as the date (December 20, 1934), but it located the crash site in North Africa (it was actually in the Syrian Desert, near Rutbah Wells in present day Iraq) and indicated that there were no fatalities (in fact, everyone on board was killed — the four crew members and the three passengers). Although I didn't doubt the AAMC at the time, I continued doing my research and soon learned how wrong the AAMC was.
I contacted a representative of the AAMC, who acknowledged the accuracy of my information, but he said he didn't know when an updated version of the catalogue would be published. I gather that it never has been updated.
It always pays to be skeptical of philatelic offerings. Another cover in my collection is from a British freighter, S.S. Eros. When it was offered to me, it was described as mail from a ship that had struck a mine, and I purchased it with that understanding, as an interesting Battle of the Atlantic artifact. However, I subsequently learned Eros was actually torpedoed by a German U-boat, U-48,* in May, 1940. Subsequently, I have learned a great deal about both Eros and U-48.*
Bob
* U-48 was the most successful of all German U-boats in the Second World War, sinking 55 Allied ships. She earned everlasting infamy in September, 1940 when she torpedoed and sank S.S. City of Benares, a refugee ship which was evacuating British children to Canada to escape the Blitz; 77 of the children died.
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Here are a few more Bi-plane cancels;
Randy
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@TuskenRaider:
I probably will do a small web page about the biplane cancellation varieties, but not right away. You suggested that other Stamporama members could donate images from their own collections, but as a rule I don't include philatelic items in my web pages that aren't in my own collection, unless they are so rare and/or expensive that I could never own one. But I appreciate your suggestion.
Bob
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"A minor-ish point about the American Air Mail Catalogue ... it's always worth attempting to find other sources to confirm it. "
For safety incident (crash/+) data, I rely on Harro Ranter:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19341220-0 ...
... if that were my crash cover, I'd add it to that page, but that's me.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-01 13:01:04)
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@IkeyPikey: I added an original photograph of the Uiver to the Aviation Safety Network web site, as well as a cover that was recovered from the Uiver's crash site. The images haven't shown up yet; they probably have to be approved by a moderator.
Bob
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Bob, moderators don't approve what people post (before they appear on the Discussion Boards). The system doesn't hold anything for us to look at prior to it being posted on the Discussion Boards. Maybe the images you tried to upload were too large?
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Michael,
I wasn't referring to a post to Stamporama, but to the Aviation Safety Network, on IkeyPikey's suggestion. I should have clarified that in my post here.
Bob
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
26 Jun 2015
09:49:26am
I found this one in an old collection I acquired. At first I just thought it a cool airplane cancel, then I noticed the stamp to which it was applied: Pont Express Anniversary issue of 1940. Ironic in that the Pony express was the way to "save time" in 1860. Anyway, I like the stamp and thought others might also.
BTW, does anyone know why it was deemed important to issue a stamp on the 80th Anniversary of the Pony Express? Seems an odd number to me. I am used to 50th, 75th, 100th, etc. Don't think I've ever seen an 80th.
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
According to the United States Postal Slogan Cancel Catalog by Moe Luff 1975 Edition, this slogan cancel was used in the 1924-1952 time frame.
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10:19:53am
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Bobby...try this link
http://arago.si.edu/index.asp?con=1&cmd=1&tid=2028688
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-26 11:57:17)
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10:52:19am
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Awesome stamp Bobby. Ironic indeed!
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
I think it's unlikely that that cancellation was in use in 1924. The design looks very much like the DC-1/DC-2/DC-3 series of airliners, which first flew in 1934. Before that time, most airliners were boxy affairs, made of wood and cloth rather than metal, and were rarely if ever represented by pictorial cancellations. Here's a New Zealand stamp showing the DC-3; as you can tell, there are a lot of similarities between the DC-3 and the airliner pictured in your cancellation:
Among the few hundred airmail covers I have, there are only two other pictorial cancellations showing airliners, and those were in use after the Second World War in Canada, and both look like they were designed for use by Mickey Mouse.
Pictorial cancellations showing aircraft were in use in 1924 through 1928, at least, but they show the Curtis Jenny (I think), which was used as a mail plane in the U.S. in the 1920s. Here are two covers from my collection showing that cancellation:
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
I think I’ve got it — the reason the Pony Express stamp was issued in 1940. In that year, in connection with a new movie filmed in Old Tucson, the “Old Tucson Post Office†was re-opened, apparently precipitating the issuance of the stamp. See Pony Express run re-enacted at 1940 Old Tucson Festival.
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Bob,
Very nice C11 First Day cover you have there!
Especially with the bi-plane cancel, which was the actual plane in the photograph used as the reference for the design of the stamp, as you probably know.
Too bad they felt the need to change it to a single wing; I liked it better the other way.
Randy
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
FDC? Scott says that C11 was issued on July 25, not August 1. Darn! You got my hopes up, Randy. Now Scott has dashed them!
You're right about the stamp image being a monoplane. I'd never really thought about that, since my main aviation interest is in propeller airliners, not smaller planes. I scanned one of my copies of C11 to get a better look at the airplane image:
A biplane would have made more sense, since, as far as I know, there weren't any monoplanes flying the U.S. mails in 1928. I could be wrong about that.
Does anyone know if the cancellation image represents an actual aircraft? It sorta looks like a Curtis J-4 Jenny, but not quite.
Now here's something interesting. I have 18 or so examples of the biplane cancellation. I was just looking more closely at them than I ever have before, and noticed two different versions!:
And (I'll be darned, or not very observant!) here's yet another variety!:
No doubt someone has done an exhibit about this cancellation (these cancellations).
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Bob,
You are correct regarding the issue date of July 25th; however, the rate change (drop) did not take effect until Aug 1st, therefore any usage of the C11 BEFORE the 1st had to be accompanied by other postage to cover the difference.
So, the cover you have is the first day of the NEW rate, when it was allowed to be used without additional postage.
I have an article on here regarding that stamp, which is my favorite US issue
Randy
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
"No doubt someone has done an exhibit about this cancellation (these cancellations)."
While not an exhibit, this Scribblings article from the Rocky Mountain Philatelic Library provides a good deal of background on these slogan cancels.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
27 Jun 2015
11:48:05am
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Ahhhh, the days of yore when postage rates actually decreased now and then!
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
"I have an article on here regarding that stamp, which is my favorite US issue"
Here's another:
Collector turns up unusual usages of the 5¢ Beacon airmail stamp
http://www.linns.com/en/insights/us-stamps-and-postal-history/2014/10/collector-turns-up-unusual-usages-of-the-5-beacon-.html
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-06-27 17:01:21)
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01:51:44pm
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
"Ahhhh, the days of yore when postage rates actually decreased now and then!"
Actually May 31, 2015, saw a drop in postage rates. The tracking fee ($1.05) for First Class Parcel, Media Mai, Library Mail, and any other domestic parcel service that already didn't have it provided, was eliminated.
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
All but three examples of the biplane cancellation in my collection seem to be identical to this one, first shown to you earlier in this thread:
I'm going to keep my eyes open for the various versions and varieties that are mentioned in the article tomiseksj provided a link for.
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Hi Everyone;
I smell a new cancellation collection in somebodies future!
Good catch Bob, I never noticed those differences before, darn now I gotta check all mine!
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Bob,
The "Air Mail Saves Time" slogan cancel has been widely researched. It is perhaps the most popular US slogan. There are several publications. To get started, I recommend the Aero-Marcophilately volume by the Machine Cancel Society (should be readily available to date).
The cuts you are showing are unfortunately worthless to a postmark collector. Generally entires are preferred, but if you only have a cut, at a minimum the cut needs to include the actually postmarking dial, so that the city can be identified. Someone cut these to be soaked as kiloware, not to preserve the cancellation.
The two major varieties, which can be distinguished by how the tires are attached to the plane, signify the slogan used on "Universal" machines (your 15) or "International" machines (your 3). The postmarking dials of these two machine types are a lot more distinctively different than this small difference in the drawing of the air plane. If you had the entire cancels, it would be very obvious to tell which one is which.
The International slogan dies were hand-engraved and show significant differences which allow specialists to track where specific dies were used. This exhibit probably has more than you ever want to know about the International dies.
To get started, you may want to find one from every city. Next, perhaps all the different machine numbers from each city. Then you may wish to add any die differences of the postmarking dial, and lastly you can fly-speck the die differences of the slogan.
Arno
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
I looked at the exhibit that Arno provided a link to. Oh wow. Who knew? Last night I was thinking, yeah, an exhibit would be fun to put together. Now those dreams have been dashed. Instead, I'm seeing a very simple web page in my future, and perhaps an occasional purchase of a cover, assuming I can find one. I would need a great deal more money, time, patience, and even interest to pursue anything more complex.
I'm reminded of a one-frame exhibit at VANPEX a few years ago. As I recall it featured just one Canadian or perhaps U.S. definitive stamp, perhaps a KGV "Admiral" or one of the Washington-Franklins. It wasn't about usage, or constant-plate varieties, or shades. The collector's primary concern was the thickness of the paper used. Using a micrometer, he had found dozens of different thicknesses of the same stamp. I think he won a silver medal, perhaps vermeil. As I recall, the judges were impressed but criticized him for not providing information about the significance of the differing paper thicknesses. Just as I couldn't possibly commit myself to building an exhibit based on the thickness of stamps, neither could I manage to build an exhibit with the detail shown in the "Air-Mail Saves Time" exhibit. I have the greatest respect for any collector who manages such achievement, but I'm never going to be one of those collectors!
I did a bit of searching on eBay last night for "Air-Mail Saves Time" cancellations, and found a few cut squares (also called "2 X 4s" I believe, based on their very approximate 2:4 dimensions) and a few entires, mostly priced in the $7 - $20 range. If I do a web page, I might include some similar U.S. and Australian cancellations.
On an auction web site, I found this "rather nice" cover; fortunately, it had been sold so I didn't have to bid on it!
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
The op's image in my mind- NICE!
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Hi Rhinelander;
Hate to burst your bubble (no I don't). I've sold dozens of stamps on here to postmark
collectors with fancy/town cancels without any 'cut' or attached paper at all. No entires
either. I've even sold several cut squares of postal cards. Which I've been told are not
collectible. I dare you to tell that to my buyers.
If you want to state such stuffed-shirt rules on here then please include a disclaimer, to
new collectors that it is fine to collect whatever they so choose. I listen to my buyers and
list what they ask for. Guess what....it usually sells in less than 48 hours. That is because
I didn't listen to the 'experts' but to the real experts....my buyers.
No disrespect to you sir, as I'm sure that is the way you were taught. If on the other hand,
you want to collect with the intention of an exhibit, then you are right and I am wrong, and
then the stuffed-shirt rules apply.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
29 Jun 2015
05:56:08am
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Ken, before this gets out of hand, may I remind you we treat one another with respect on on SOR. Referring to another member as a "stuffed shirt" is certainly not respectful. Obviously your opinion and Rhinelander's differ, but name calling is not conducive to productive argument. Rhinelander is entitled to his opinions as are you, but keep the discussion civil.
Bobby
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
@ Bob
I am not sure about the AMST covers you found mostly priced in the $7 - $20 range on ebay. These postmarks are typically $1 box items. The slogan was used for years on any regular mail to promote air mail service. However, the slogan was also used purposefully on the occasion of special flight events. For instance, the Detroit cover you show, signed by Charles Lindbergh. In these cases, you have to consider what you are actually buying. As always, postal history items can be different things to different people. If you want the postmark only, you may not want to pay a premium for the Lindbergh signature. This is, BTW, an "International" machine which has the year engraved in a half-circle at the bottom of the dial. The "Universal" machines, one example is shown by tomiseksj from Springfield, Ill, has the year inside the dial and the state at the bottom of the dial.
If you stick to one example each from each town, or at most include different machine numbers in the dial, such as Detroit '4', or Boston, Mass. 'A', shown above, it could still be a very simple, yet challenging, collection. Lists of existing towns are readily available. No need to get into the flyspecking of re-engraved dies, shown in the exhibit. Very few people collect postmarks at that level, similarly to very few people collecting stamps at that level.
Arno
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
My plans, which are not more than daydreams at this point, are to collect just the boxed portion of the cancellations in a few obvious varieties. If better items, including entires, come my way, so much the better. I enjoy building web pages which point out little-known "philatelic curiosities" that other collectors and non-collectors might find interesting.
Along the same lines is another web page I'd like to do someday, showing stamps, overprints, and some pictorial cancellations featuring airplanes with design flaws that prevent them from getting off the ground, much less flying. It would combine detail images of some stamps in my collection, along with information about the science of flight, which many stamp designers in the 1920s and 1930s and even later apparently knew little about. Here an example — aircraft generally need horizontal stabilizers and elevators to control pitch!:
In fact, the biplane cancellations that we've been discussing have some design issues, among them "free-floating" axels unsupported by struts, the fuselage offset slightly to the right, and a propeller with one blade considerably shorter than the other.
About the Lindbergh cover: I realize that has value (and a lot of value, at that) only because of Lindbergh's signature. The stamp and cancellation are just frosting on the cake. But I would never have bid on it anyway, because there are many other covers and stamps I would far rather have.
I agree, those eBay prices are, like so much on eBay, just plain ridiculous.
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Hi Arno;
The 'stuffed shirt' remark was not intended to refer to anyone, you included. My apologies if it
was perceived that way.
It was referring to boring rules especially exhibit rules, which has kept many collectors from
even considering entering items or collections into so called exhibits. The only rules I go by are
what I like to collect and how....and secondly what do my buyers ask for me to provide them.
I like the way bobstamp does his web pages, his way and his rules, and they look great. Very
professional looking and a fun easy read.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
"... an "International" machine ... has the year engraved in a half-circle at the bottom of the dial. The "Universal" machines ... has the year inside the dial and the state at the bottom of the dial ..."
Oops! Mine has the state in the dial and the slogan at the bottom, perhaps because it was set-up specifically for a show substation.
What's the message behind that diving single-winger in the show cachet?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Thank you, TuskenRaider, for the compliment about my web pages. I'd like to add that I've approached exhibiting in much the same way that I determine the content of my web pages, and how they're designed: I like them both to be uncluttered and easy to read; web pages should be easy to navigate. But I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll start a new one about exhibiting.
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Hi everyone;
@ babstamp;
Maybe you should do a small website about the variations in Slogan cancels. Not necessarily
showing all the varieties, but just illustrating that there are differences and give new collectors
on here a few ideas for starting their own specialized collections.
I'm sure that many other slogan cancels have differences that nobody has noticed. Until you
mentioned it I was not aware of all the Jennies variations. There must be just as many on
some of the others.
Rather than having to find and buy all those examples, I'm sure members on here would be
glad to give you scans of ones that you are missing so you can fill in the missing bits. I think
this is a lot more fun that plating a sheet of stamps, which usually requires advanced know-
ledge. These differences you pointed out are easy, even for beginners to spot, with very little
time and experience at stamps.
Just thinkin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
@ ikeyPikey
Perhaps I should have said that the state is "typically" at the bottom of a Universal machine cancellation . The key difference is that the International machines have the year curved at the bottom of the rim whereas the year is inside the dial of Universals. In the case of stations and otherwise busy cancels with lots of information to fit in the dial, the state can occasionally move to the top at times. Nice item, in any event. Also, welcome here on SOR!
As to your question, I do not own all volumes of the American Air Mail Catalogue, and also I am traveling and therefore cannot check right now, but if an answer to your question can be found from readily available resources, someone perhaps could check the AAMC.
@ tuskenraider
No worries.
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
A minor-ish point about the American Air Mail Catalogue: As with any resource, it should be used with caution. Ninety-nine percent of the information it contains is probably accurate, but it's always worth attempting to find other sources to confirm it.
A cover in my collection was recovered from the crash of a KLM DC-2 airliner in 1934. The first reference I found to the crash was in one of the AAMC volumes; although I didn't realize it at the time, the AAMC was wildly incorrect in the "facts" it presented. The catalogue had the type of aircraft and the airline correct (a Douglas DC-2 owned by KLM), as well as the date (December 20, 1934), but it located the crash site in North Africa (it was actually in the Syrian Desert, near Rutbah Wells in present day Iraq) and indicated that there were no fatalities (in fact, everyone on board was killed — the four crew members and the three passengers). Although I didn't doubt the AAMC at the time, I continued doing my research and soon learned how wrong the AAMC was.
I contacted a representative of the AAMC, who acknowledged the accuracy of my information, but he said he didn't know when an updated version of the catalogue would be published. I gather that it never has been updated.
It always pays to be skeptical of philatelic offerings. Another cover in my collection is from a British freighter, S.S. Eros. When it was offered to me, it was described as mail from a ship that had struck a mine, and I purchased it with that understanding, as an interesting Battle of the Atlantic artifact. However, I subsequently learned Eros was actually torpedoed by a German U-boat, U-48,* in May, 1940. Subsequently, I have learned a great deal about both Eros and U-48.*
Bob
* U-48 was the most successful of all German U-boats in the Second World War, sinking 55 Allied ships. She earned everlasting infamy in September, 1940 when she torpedoed and sank S.S. City of Benares, a refugee ship which was evacuating British children to Canada to escape the Blitz; 77 of the children died.
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Here are a few more Bi-plane cancels;
Randy
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
@TuskenRaider:
I probably will do a small web page about the biplane cancellation varieties, but not right away. You suggested that other Stamporama members could donate images from their own collections, but as a rule I don't include philatelic items in my web pages that aren't in my own collection, unless they are so rare and/or expensive that I could never own one. But I appreciate your suggestion.
Bob
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
"A minor-ish point about the American Air Mail Catalogue ... it's always worth attempting to find other sources to confirm it. "
For safety incident (crash/+) data, I rely on Harro Ranter:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19341220-0 ...
... if that were my crash cover, I'd add it to that page, but that's me.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-07-01 13:01:04)
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
@IkeyPikey: I added an original photograph of the Uiver to the Aviation Safety Network web site, as well as a cover that was recovered from the Uiver's crash site. The images haven't shown up yet; they probably have to be approved by a moderator.
Bob
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02:31:21pm
re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Bob, moderators don't approve what people post (before they appear on the Discussion Boards). The system doesn't hold anything for us to look at prior to it being posted on the Discussion Boards. Maybe the images you tried to upload were too large?
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re: Cool "Airplane" cancel
Michael,
I wasn't referring to a post to Stamporama, but to the Aviation Safety Network, on IkeyPikey's suggestion. I should have clarified that in my post here.
Bob
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