Or, perhaps, albumization has reared its ugly head?
I can see a philatelic hand-back cover, neatly & carefully favor-cancelled, only to later be cut up by someone who wanted their stamps to fit in their respective little boxes on an album page.
A wise man once told me: "Never ask how they got that way."
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
I concur with ikey; most likely a favor cancel, where the original collector affixed the stamps to a cover, or covers, and handed them to a postal clerk for nice neat postmarks.
As bad a rap as CTO's have today, among collectors back in the old days attitudes were different. Even today, though, in China, CTO's with full gum are the preferred collecting method.
Ted
Thank you both. I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely.
Actually, in the first half of the 20th century, stamp collectors were even more active during times of upheaval, because holding stamps was better than carrying currency. If you had to flee your country, your stamps were your bank account.
Ted
i'm going to add another possibility here: Europeans were far more conscious of CDS placement than their American cousins. Where I see smudges and blobs here, I see perfectly centered cancels throughout Europe during the hand-striking days. A careful clerk in an office might always strive for the best centering. So, I wouldn't go directly to the hand-back answer.
"
...I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely."
Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state.
A few other thoughts ...
CTOs? The near-universal practice in what became known as CTOs was a single strike to demonetize four stamps at once, as this would leave so much of the stamp unmolested.
(Yes, it is possible that, in the early days of CTOs, some postal agency did it differently, but in cases like this, I think that we should stick to the more likely explanations.)
Forgeries? Is this stamp set worth a good deal more when it is found GPU (Genuinely Postally Used)? If not, forgery seems unlikely.
And, finally, a few unkind words about smuggling:
Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.
But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.
I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
"Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state."
Easily done Guthrum!
As IkeyPikey says these could have come from a neatly cancelled cover or maybe a set of stamps cancelled on a piece of paper, i.e. a form of handback.
I wouldn't worry about the status of the cancellation as long as it's genuine.
I've not seen much information on these apart from the listing in my old Michel catalogue.
The overprints here look different in terms of detailed layout from the one shown in Michel but I suspect that the illustration in the catalogue is just meant to be indicative.
I have only four (mint) stamps of this set and the overprint looks the same as here for what it's worth.
Given that the cancellation looks ok to me (in terms of style, placename and date) it suggests that these stamps and mine may be genuine. However, Michel does have a warning of forgeries of this set.
The stamps here (and mine) have the lowest catalogue value which I find encouraging in terms of them being genuine.
I cannot find any reference to the two surcharged values in Michel.
My parents fled the advancing Soviet (Russian) army in 1944. My dad had a fairly comprehensive collection of Lithuania. He decided to bury his collection in favor of taking Russian gold coins as he and my mom fled west. As a pharmacist he also dragged along his manual of various medicines (which I treasure now.) The gold helped, the manual did not.
I've seen many Lithuanian stamps with similar cancels. Complete sets artistically arranged on large covers and postmarked. I've also seen complete sets or singles on piece all postmarked on the same date. A lot of favor cancels - even during times of major conflicts.
Tad
Undoubtedly favor cancels (or made to look so), which are not that uncommon. Are the overprints genuine (and hence the cancels)? First, the 20, 40, 50 and 50 filler and 1 Korona are the most common (e.g., 25,000 of the 1K printed). The 2K is a little rarer (1300 printed), so why forge the least common? But its been done before and Hungarian overprints are rife with forgeries.
The genuine overprint was printed using a machine press using black ink, so the ink should appear to squeeze to the outer edges of the letters. There should be serifs on the 1921 and the "a" in "megszallt" drops down out of alignment with the "z" and "llt". I see the "a" out of alignment on the "unissued" 250/15f and the 350/25f (the ones without the cancel), but not sure about the overprints on these in general. Not sure I see enough of anything on the canceled stamps to have an opinion.
As with most Hungarian overprints of this time period, expert opinion is the only certainty.
Thank you everyone. I feel much better about this set now and will try to add them to my collection.
As I recall, certain of the Harvesters, including the two surcharged values were "unissued" so I don't think they were ever released by the PO for use. I don't have my reference material at hand, but perhaps Western Hungary was annexed by Austria before they saw use.
You are correct Lewis. According to my Brainard catalog, the two surcharged harvesters were "unissued".
"Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.
But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.
I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported."
"... highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections ..."
Here is another example, but a little different. The stamps and the overprints look good to me. This person applied them all to a piece of paper then had them canceled. Is there a reason they did this? It's not a cover so no historical significance there.
The story of refugees smuggling stamps from WW11 Europe sounded familiar. I have several of Herman Herst's books. Stories to Collect Stamps By, More Stories to Collect Stamps By and Nassau Street.
In Nassua Street there are two stories that refer to refugees smuggling stamps. the first is chapter 11, page 96. The next story is chapter 13, page 116. he starts off chapter 13 with "You could always tell when a steamship arrived from Europe. Within 24 hours the parade of the pitiful would commence. gaunt and hungry, the refugees find Nassau Street, the place where they would start their fight back to respectability and human dignity. There they would convert the stamps that at the risk of their lives they had smuggled out of Germany."
In More Stories to Collect Stamps By. On page 172, the story titled Profits Can Be Losses he refers to smuggling stamps out of Czechoslovakia.
I am sure I read elsewhere other stories about refugees smuggling but I am not sure where.
Vince
Ikey, vinman, I have shifted my response to the 'portable asset?' debate onto the 'General' part of the DB, as I felt it was hi-jacking Sean's original CTO theme.
Sean, apologies for this (and for implying you did not know what Hungary was!).
I am trying to figure out if these are cto's. I find it hard to believe that even a part of a set has such perfect and identical cancels, especially on such an obscure issue as this. Does it point to outright forgeries?
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Or, perhaps, albumization has reared its ugly head?
I can see a philatelic hand-back cover, neatly & carefully favor-cancelled, only to later be cut up by someone who wanted their stamps to fit in their respective little boxes on an album page.
A wise man once told me: "Never ask how they got that way."
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
re: Hungarian CTO's?
I concur with ikey; most likely a favor cancel, where the original collector affixed the stamps to a cover, or covers, and handed them to a postal clerk for nice neat postmarks.
As bad a rap as CTO's have today, among collectors back in the old days attitudes were different. Even today, though, in China, CTO's with full gum are the preferred collecting method.
Ted
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Thank you both. I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Actually, in the first half of the 20th century, stamp collectors were even more active during times of upheaval, because holding stamps was better than carrying currency. If you had to flee your country, your stamps were your bank account.
Ted
re: Hungarian CTO's?
i'm going to add another possibility here: Europeans were far more conscious of CDS placement than their American cousins. Where I see smudges and blobs here, I see perfectly centered cancels throughout Europe during the hand-striking days. A careful clerk in an office might always strive for the best centering. So, I wouldn't go directly to the hand-back answer.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
"
...I thought that in an area and time of such great upheaval, and such a short-lived country, that this type of thing would have been unlikely."
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
A few other thoughts ...
CTOs? The near-universal practice in what became known as CTOs was a single strike to demonetize four stamps at once, as this would leave so much of the stamp unmolested.
(Yes, it is possible that, in the early days of CTOs, some postal agency did it differently, but in cases like this, I think that we should stick to the more likely explanations.)
Forgeries? Is this stamp set worth a good deal more when it is found GPU (Genuinely Postally Used)? If not, forgery seems unlikely.
And, finally, a few unkind words about smuggling:
Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.
But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.
I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
re: Hungarian CTO's?
"Guthrum, these stamps are from Western Hungary / Lajtabanat / Lajtabánság (basically today's Burgenland) which was a very short-lived state."
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Easily done Guthrum!
As IkeyPikey says these could have come from a neatly cancelled cover or maybe a set of stamps cancelled on a piece of paper, i.e. a form of handback.
I wouldn't worry about the status of the cancellation as long as it's genuine.
I've not seen much information on these apart from the listing in my old Michel catalogue.
The overprints here look different in terms of detailed layout from the one shown in Michel but I suspect that the illustration in the catalogue is just meant to be indicative.
I have only four (mint) stamps of this set and the overprint looks the same as here for what it's worth.
Given that the cancellation looks ok to me (in terms of style, placename and date) it suggests that these stamps and mine may be genuine. However, Michel does have a warning of forgeries of this set.
The stamps here (and mine) have the lowest catalogue value which I find encouraging in terms of them being genuine.
I cannot find any reference to the two surcharged values in Michel.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
My parents fled the advancing Soviet (Russian) army in 1944. My dad had a fairly comprehensive collection of Lithuania. He decided to bury his collection in favor of taking Russian gold coins as he and my mom fled west. As a pharmacist he also dragged along his manual of various medicines (which I treasure now.) The gold helped, the manual did not.
I've seen many Lithuanian stamps with similar cancels. Complete sets artistically arranged on large covers and postmarked. I've also seen complete sets or singles on piece all postmarked on the same date. A lot of favor cancels - even during times of major conflicts.
Tad
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Undoubtedly favor cancels (or made to look so), which are not that uncommon. Are the overprints genuine (and hence the cancels)? First, the 20, 40, 50 and 50 filler and 1 Korona are the most common (e.g., 25,000 of the 1K printed). The 2K is a little rarer (1300 printed), so why forge the least common? But its been done before and Hungarian overprints are rife with forgeries.
The genuine overprint was printed using a machine press using black ink, so the ink should appear to squeeze to the outer edges of the letters. There should be serifs on the 1921 and the "a" in "megszallt" drops down out of alignment with the "z" and "llt". I see the "a" out of alignment on the "unissued" 250/15f and the 350/25f (the ones without the cancel), but not sure about the overprints on these in general. Not sure I see enough of anything on the canceled stamps to have an opinion.
As with most Hungarian overprints of this time period, expert opinion is the only certainty.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Thank you everyone. I feel much better about this set now and will try to add them to my collection.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
As I recall, certain of the Harvesters, including the two surcharged values were "unissued" so I don't think they were ever released by the PO for use. I don't have my reference material at hand, but perhaps Western Hungary was annexed by Austria before they saw use.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
You are correct Lewis. According to my Brainard catalog, the two surcharged harvesters were "unissued".
re: Hungarian CTO's?
"Yes, a knowledgeable stamp collector with valuable stamps would take their best stamps with them as they fled.
But, for an outsider, stamps were a very poor choice, one reason being the very real problem of arbitrage, eg, different stamps being worth different amounts of money in different places. Never mind regimes falling, and their stamps along with them.
I think that the instances of refugees carrying stamps are vastly over-reported."
re: Hungarian CTO's?
"... highly-placed officials from around 1944 used and in some cases created collections ..."
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Here is another example, but a little different. The stamps and the overprints look good to me. This person applied them all to a piece of paper then had them canceled. Is there a reason they did this? It's not a cover so no historical significance there.
re: Hungarian CTO's?
The story of refugees smuggling stamps from WW11 Europe sounded familiar. I have several of Herman Herst's books. Stories to Collect Stamps By, More Stories to Collect Stamps By and Nassau Street.
In Nassua Street there are two stories that refer to refugees smuggling stamps. the first is chapter 11, page 96. The next story is chapter 13, page 116. he starts off chapter 13 with "You could always tell when a steamship arrived from Europe. Within 24 hours the parade of the pitiful would commence. gaunt and hungry, the refugees find Nassau Street, the place where they would start their fight back to respectability and human dignity. There they would convert the stamps that at the risk of their lives they had smuggled out of Germany."
In More Stories to Collect Stamps By. On page 172, the story titled Profits Can Be Losses he refers to smuggling stamps out of Czechoslovakia.
I am sure I read elsewhere other stories about refugees smuggling but I am not sure where.
Vince
re: Hungarian CTO's?
Ikey, vinman, I have shifted my response to the 'portable asset?' debate onto the 'General' part of the DB, as I felt it was hi-jacking Sean's original CTO theme.
Sean, apologies for this (and for implying you did not know what Hungary was!).