Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I understand that such postal cards were printed in two parts, one part for the address and postage-paid indicum on one side and the message from the sender on the opposite side. The second part of the postal card was intended to be removed by the recipient and used to send a return message.
My question is this: Do such cards, assuming they still exist, have an postage-paid indicum printed on the return section, or did stamps have to be added? In the case of a foreign destination, such as this postal card, I assume that postage would have to be added. But if such a card were used domestically, was the postage for the return-message card pre-paid?
An historical note: This is an "Israel" postal card, posted by a Jewish man, Erich "Israel" Lowenstein, and postmarked in Charlottenburg, Germany, in June, 1940. By that time in Germany, various sections of the anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws were in full effect: among the laws were regulations stating that German Jews had to take the middle name "Israel" in the case of men for use on official documents and foreign mail. (I don't believe that domestic mail was included in that regulation.) Jewish women had to take the middle name of "Sara". Both "Sara" and "Israel" covers are considered to be postal evidence of the Holocaust.
Bob
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Post cards would not necessarily have postage pre-paid as those are not normally provided by a post office. Paid Reply Postal Cards will have the reply postage pre-paid. The payment would have been made by the person who originally bought the Paid Reply Postal Card.
They still exist, at least in the USA. Scott lists such cards with the "UY" prefix.
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Hi Bob,
Yes, I would expect reply cards to have pre-printed stamps on both halves. These were covered by explicit UPU regulations.
Here's an example reply half (or "Part 2") showing the same pre-printed 15 pf Hindenburg stamp.
This was sent from from Hornsey in London back to Germany in June 1939.
This one is not mine - I found it in a Google search on one of John Barefoot's sites.
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Different countries tried printing Message-Reply pairs in different configurations.
Some were printed on one side only, which exposed the return postage indicia to cancellation.
It was some time before they were 'all' printed on two sides so that, when folded, the return postage was protected.
I've seen postal MRC pairs with domestic rate indicia; you can understand the difficulty in printing some other country's indicia for return use.
Privately printed MRC pairs would have added postage (or space to add postage) on both halves.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Thank you, Michael & Nigel, you confirmed what I thought the answer would be. But the amount of postage on my cover is curious. Perhaps it wasn't uprated, as I thought it was, but is an international reply card. But, one rate for international use? That doesn't make sense.
Bob
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Yes, these 15pf + 15pf reply cards were issued for international use.
I guess your card has the additional postage to pay for airmail.
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Bob: If you are showing us both sides of one half, then what you have is the outbound half of a German MRC bearing indicia for domestic use plus uprating German postage for international airmail.
The American recipient would have covered the valueless German 'return' indicia with American postage at whatever rate was required for a postcard with whatever uprates were required (airmail, registry, etc).
Of course, the sender could have split the German MRC, and used each half as a single postcard.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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08:43:57pm
The airmail surcharge for airmail to USA was 40 pfg during this period. Yours has an additional 42pfg applied, so it is what is known as a "convenience franking", where the sender did not care about the extra 2pfg.
Roy
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Hi IkeyPikey,
The German pre-printed stamp on the return half would have paid for return postage from the US to Germany by the standard surface route.
This card was intended for international use.
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Very interesting! Thank you, everyone, for helping to educate me. Top answer IkeyPikey's question, my postal card is indeed just the outgoing, Germany-to-America portion. I expect that having both outgoing and incoming halves would be collecting coup!
Bob
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Live, and learn.
No luck learning at the UPU site, though, where I searched on 'reply', etc, and had no joy beyond the well-known International Reply Coupons.
Thank you, Nigel.
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Bob- That card is one great piece of history!
Roughly translated:
My Dear Walter,
Since your card from November from Havana, I received only recently, I have received from you no news; And could learn nothing else about your location.
But I suppose that you are in the States , and I ask you to write to me again , how are you and your mother? What are you doing ?
From myself is little to report , it's been good to me nothing changed . At some point there will be a definite plan, I do not have the timing. My waiting number comes at normal port transition only in about one year. From my brother I hear too little , but will go well as all.
I often think of the kind Sunday lunch that I spent with you! Write quite more details about you, how you live there, even your address . Hearty Greetings to you and your mother and I am happy.
Simply stated, (sincerely)
Erich
Reading between the lines, I believe he is waiting for an exit visa, and that it could take up to a year. I wonder how Erich made out.
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I doubt that he got the exit visa. WWII start just a few months later. I believe Germany issued very few, if any, exit visas after that. If he was Jewish, hope dwindles even more.
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Hi IkeyPikey,
I'm afraid I don't know what, if any, is the current status of international reply-paid postcards/postal cards but they were initially authorised by the 3rd UPU COngress in Lisbon in 1885 following earlier domestic use within Germany.
Here's the relevant decision from the 3rd Congress:
"ARTICLE II. The stipulations of this Convention extend to letters, post cards, both single and with reply paid, printed papers of every kind, commercial papers and patterns or samples of merchandise, originating in one of the countries of the Union, and intended for another of those countries. They also apply, as far as regards conveyance within the Union, to the exchange by post of the articles above mentioned between the countries of the Union and countries foreign to the Union, whenever the services of two of the Contracting Parties at least are used for that exchange.
All the Contracting Countries are not bound to issue cards with reply paid, but they assume the obligation of returning the reply halves of cards received from other countries of the Union.
"
I can only see the current (and very recent) acts and regulations on the UPU web site and like you see no references to reply-paid cards.
I think the first part of the 1885 document that I've quoted from is quite fun:
"
UNIVERSAL POSTAL UNION
ADDITIONAL ACT OF LISBON TO THE CONVENTION OF THE 1ST OF JUNE, 1878
March 21, 1885
Concluded between Germany, the United States of America, the Argentine Republic, Austro-Hungary, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Chili, the United States of Colombia, the Republic of Costa Rica, Denmark and the Danish Colonies, the Dominican Republic, Egypt, Ecuador, Spain and the Spanish colonies, Great Britain and certain British Colonies, Canada, British India, Greece, Guatemala, the Republic of Hayti, the Kingdom of Hawaii, the Republic of Honduras, Italy, Japan, the Republic of Paraguay, the Netherlands and the Netherland Colonies, Peru, Persia, Portugal and the Portuguese Colonies, Roumania, Russia, Salvador, Servia, the Kingdom of Siam, Sweden and Norway, Switzerland, Turkey, Uruguay and the United States of Venezuela.
The undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Governments of the countries specified below, assembled in Congress at Lisbon. In virtue of Article XIX of the Convention concluded at Paris on the 1st of June, 1878. Have by common consent, and subject to ratification, resolved upon the following Additional Act."
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The US has issued only six paid reply postal card for international use. The first one was issued in 1893 (Scott #UY2). The next were issued in 1924 (Scott #UY11) and 1926 (Scott #UY12). Then it was not until 1956 (Scott #UY16), followed with another in 1963 (Scott #UY19). Then in 1967 came the last one to be issued (Scott #UY20).
The total number of paid reply postal cards issued by the USA is 52, including those intended for international use. If you go after only the major catalog numbers, most are easily obtained. Just make sure to collect them whenever possible with both cards attached, and NOT folded over.
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Thank you for the translation, Tom. There is indeed much to read between the lines.
Michael said,
"I doubt that he got the exit visa. WWII start just a few months later."
I agree that Erich is unlikely to have received an exit visa, because the Second World War was already under way. The United Kingdom, most of the British Empire, and France had declared war on Germany after its Sept. 1, 1939 invasion of Poland. By June, 1940, the Low Countries and the north of France had been occupied by Germany. Japan had long since occupied large areas of China as well as Korea, and Italy had brutally expanded its empire in North and East Africa. Although the U.S. provided a lot of aid to the U.K. in the form of loans of dollars and war matériel, and even provided protection for convoys, it didn't declare war on the Axis until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has an interesting web page about the difficulties Jews faced in trying to escape Europe. See ESCAPE FROM GERMAN-OCCUPIED EUROPE.
Bob
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I have this "Israel" return-message reply postal card in my collection:
I understand that such postal cards were printed in two parts, one part for the address and postage-paid indicum on one side and the message from the sender on the opposite side. The second part of the postal card was intended to be removed by the recipient and used to send a return message.
My question is this: Do such cards, assuming they still exist, have an postage-paid indicum printed on the return section, or did stamps have to be added? In the case of a foreign destination, such as this postal card, I assume that postage would have to be added. But if such a card were used domestically, was the postage for the return-message card pre-paid?
An historical note: This is an "Israel" postal card, posted by a Jewish man, Erich "Israel" Lowenstein, and postmarked in Charlottenburg, Germany, in June, 1940. By that time in Germany, various sections of the anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws were in full effect: among the laws were regulations stating that German Jews had to take the middle name "Israel" in the case of men for use on official documents and foreign mail. (I don't believe that domestic mail was included in that regulation.) Jewish women had to take the middle name of "Sara". Both "Sara" and "Israel" covers are considered to be postal evidence of the Holocaust.
Bob
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06:47:40pm
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Post cards would not necessarily have postage pre-paid as those are not normally provided by a post office. Paid Reply Postal Cards will have the reply postage pre-paid. The payment would have been made by the person who originally bought the Paid Reply Postal Card.
They still exist, at least in the USA. Scott lists such cards with the "UY" prefix.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Hi Bob,
Yes, I would expect reply cards to have pre-printed stamps on both halves. These were covered by explicit UPU regulations.
Here's an example reply half (or "Part 2") showing the same pre-printed 15 pf Hindenburg stamp.
This was sent from from Hornsey in London back to Germany in June 1939.
This one is not mine - I found it in a Google search on one of John Barefoot's sites.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Different countries tried printing Message-Reply pairs in different configurations.
Some were printed on one side only, which exposed the return postage indicia to cancellation.
It was some time before they were 'all' printed on two sides so that, when folded, the return postage was protected.
I've seen postal MRC pairs with domestic rate indicia; you can understand the difficulty in printing some other country's indicia for return use.
Privately printed MRC pairs would have added postage (or space to add postage) on both halves.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Thank you, Michael & Nigel, you confirmed what I thought the answer would be. But the amount of postage on my cover is curious. Perhaps it wasn't uprated, as I thought it was, but is an international reply card. But, one rate for international use? That doesn't make sense.
Bob
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re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Yes, these 15pf + 15pf reply cards were issued for international use.
I guess your card has the additional postage to pay for airmail.
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re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Bob: If you are showing us both sides of one half, then what you have is the outbound half of a German MRC bearing indicia for domestic use plus uprating German postage for international airmail.
The American recipient would have covered the valueless German 'return' indicia with American postage at whatever rate was required for a postcard with whatever uprates were required (airmail, registry, etc).
Of course, the sender could have split the German MRC, and used each half as a single postcard.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
21 Apr 2016
08:43:57pm
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
The airmail surcharge for airmail to USA was 40 pfg during this period. Yours has an additional 42pfg applied, so it is what is known as a "convenience franking", where the sender did not care about the extra 2pfg.
Roy
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Hi IkeyPikey,
The German pre-printed stamp on the return half would have paid for return postage from the US to Germany by the standard surface route.
This card was intended for international use.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Very interesting! Thank you, everyone, for helping to educate me. Top answer IkeyPikey's question, my postal card is indeed just the outgoing, Germany-to-America portion. I expect that having both outgoing and incoming halves would be collecting coup!
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Live, and learn.
No luck learning at the UPU site, though, where I searched on 'reply', etc, and had no joy beyond the well-known International Reply Coupons.
Thank you, Nigel.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Bob- That card is one great piece of history!
Roughly translated:
My Dear Walter,
Since your card from November from Havana, I received only recently, I have received from you no news; And could learn nothing else about your location.
But I suppose that you are in the States , and I ask you to write to me again , how are you and your mother? What are you doing ?
From myself is little to report , it's been good to me nothing changed . At some point there will be a definite plan, I do not have the timing. My waiting number comes at normal port transition only in about one year. From my brother I hear too little , but will go well as all.
I often think of the kind Sunday lunch that I spent with you! Write quite more details about you, how you live there, even your address . Hearty Greetings to you and your mother and I am happy.
Simply stated, (sincerely)
Erich
Reading between the lines, I believe he is waiting for an exit visa, and that it could take up to a year. I wonder how Erich made out.
Login to Like
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05:47:17pm
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
I doubt that he got the exit visa. WWII start just a few months later. I believe Germany issued very few, if any, exit visas after that. If he was Jewish, hope dwindles even more.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Hi IkeyPikey,
I'm afraid I don't know what, if any, is the current status of international reply-paid postcards/postal cards but they were initially authorised by the 3rd UPU COngress in Lisbon in 1885 following earlier domestic use within Germany.
Here's the relevant decision from the 3rd Congress:
"ARTICLE II. The stipulations of this Convention extend to letters, post cards, both single and with reply paid, printed papers of every kind, commercial papers and patterns or samples of merchandise, originating in one of the countries of the Union, and intended for another of those countries. They also apply, as far as regards conveyance within the Union, to the exchange by post of the articles above mentioned between the countries of the Union and countries foreign to the Union, whenever the services of two of the Contracting Parties at least are used for that exchange.
All the Contracting Countries are not bound to issue cards with reply paid, but they assume the obligation of returning the reply halves of cards received from other countries of the Union.
"
I can only see the current (and very recent) acts and regulations on the UPU web site and like you see no references to reply-paid cards.
I think the first part of the 1885 document that I've quoted from is quite fun:
"
UNIVERSAL POSTAL UNION
ADDITIONAL ACT OF LISBON TO THE CONVENTION OF THE 1ST OF JUNE, 1878
March 21, 1885
Concluded between Germany, the United States of America, the Argentine Republic, Austro-Hungary, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Chili, the United States of Colombia, the Republic of Costa Rica, Denmark and the Danish Colonies, the Dominican Republic, Egypt, Ecuador, Spain and the Spanish colonies, Great Britain and certain British Colonies, Canada, British India, Greece, Guatemala, the Republic of Hayti, the Kingdom of Hawaii, the Republic of Honduras, Italy, Japan, the Republic of Paraguay, the Netherlands and the Netherland Colonies, Peru, Persia, Portugal and the Portuguese Colonies, Roumania, Russia, Salvador, Servia, the Kingdom of Siam, Sweden and Norway, Switzerland, Turkey, Uruguay and the United States of Venezuela.
The undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Governments of the countries specified below, assembled in Congress at Lisbon. In virtue of Article XIX of the Convention concluded at Paris on the 1st of June, 1878. Have by common consent, and subject to ratification, resolved upon the following Additional Act."
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06:11:46pm
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
The US has issued only six paid reply postal card for international use. The first one was issued in 1893 (Scott #UY2). The next were issued in 1924 (Scott #UY11) and 1926 (Scott #UY12). Then it was not until 1956 (Scott #UY16), followed with another in 1963 (Scott #UY19). Then in 1967 came the last one to be issued (Scott #UY20).
The total number of paid reply postal cards issued by the USA is 52, including those intended for international use. If you go after only the major catalog numbers, most are easily obtained. Just make sure to collect them whenever possible with both cards attached, and NOT folded over.
Login to Like
this post
re: Question regarding return-message reply postal cards
Thank you for the translation, Tom. There is indeed much to read between the lines.
Michael said,
"I doubt that he got the exit visa. WWII start just a few months later."
I agree that Erich is unlikely to have received an exit visa, because the Second World War was already under way. The United Kingdom, most of the British Empire, and France had declared war on Germany after its Sept. 1, 1939 invasion of Poland. By June, 1940, the Low Countries and the north of France had been occupied by Germany. Japan had long since occupied large areas of China as well as Korea, and Italy had brutally expanded its empire in North and East Africa. Although the U.S. provided a lot of aid to the U.K. in the form of loans of dollars and war matériel, and even provided protection for convoys, it didn't declare war on the Axis until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has an interesting web page about the difficulties Jews faced in trying to escape Europe. See ESCAPE FROM GERMAN-OCCUPIED EUROPE.
Bob
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