Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I just purchased this on a popular website,it's in the mail to me now but I wanted to get some opinions on it(and get it's picture out the now before I receive it so I have proof I didn't alter it which I would never do),I have collected for 10 years and have never had any trouble with a stamp ID but I think this has a real shot at a 316,it looks like the first stamp on the postcard wasn't glued on enough and fell off and the suspected 316 was put on,probably at the P.O when it was noticed without postage on it by the sender(just a guess),all hopeful wishing on my part but it looks good to me,what do you guys think,the "first stamp" perf hole marks look higher than the suspect 316 perf holes,I know it could have been trimmed and reattached by why,I bought it for under $5 bucks so I don't think it was faked by the seller and I don't even have it yet so it wasn't me,lots of puzzles here.
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Look on the right side of the stamp.
What are all of those discolorations that look like there used to be perforations?
It's definitelty a 300 with natural straight edge at left and trimmed perfs at right.
No doubt on this one.
Why would the seller offer such a gem for "only" $5?
Because it's only worth 25 cents.
As a bonus, you may find that returning it costs as much as keeping it, and therefore you do nothing. You may provide negative feedback, but then you notice there is LOTS of negative feedback. The problem is that this person sells so much stuff that a few negatives are no deterrence.
Don't look at what's possible, look to validate what's likely. But you may yet find a rarity! You're more likely to find it in a box of old records or an Estate sale of an old collector, that an online listing.
Lars
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It is fun to hunt for rare treasures but you have to keep in mind that the simpler explanation is always the most likely explanation (Occam's razor).
First, let’s consider the known population of #316s. There are recorded nine pairs, three line pairs, and an unused single, for a grand total of 25 stamps. There are NO known used #316s. On the other hand, there were 11 BILLION #300 stamps released. So what is most likely?
Second, consider the history here. The #316 coil stamps were an experiment, regular sheets of 400 were printed and then perforated in only one direction. These were then cut into strips of 20 and the strips were then pasted together to form rolls. So how likely is it that an extremely limited experimental stamp would be sent to a Hot Springs AK post office for testing instead of just using the local Washington post offices?
Third, the perf shadow on the right hand side clearly indicates something has gone on with this postcard, they didn’t simply appear for no reason. The shadowed perfs perfectly fit the stamp. If the first stamp fell off, as you mention, then the most likely situation is that it would be replaced with a stamp from the same source of the same type. All indications and most likely explanation is that this stamp has been altered.
So the odds of this being a real used #316 are staggering remote, far exceeding any lotto drawing. Occam's razor. If you came home this afternoon and found some tress knocked over in your yard. Which is more likely; that aliens landed and their space ship knocked them over or that a thunderstorm simply blew them over?
"...all hopeful wishing on my part..."
The search for a treasure is always fun but I recommend that we all start with the assumption that a stamp is the most common variety (or is a reprint, faked, or altered) and not a newly discovered 'one of' rarity. Work your way through the process of elimination with this assumption and remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Don
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Hi,I actually purchased it because of the discolorations that are old perf holes that the glue shows up,the person I bought it off is a postcard dealer not a stamp dealer,I have bought probably 20 or cards from them over the years,I've got nice 578's and some nice Schermack's from them,a real nice Scott 352 last month too,she doesn't care what the stamps are or check them,she just takes front and back pictures and puts them up for sale at $4.99,so the stamp wasn't altered by her for sure,she has 100,000 postcards for sale.
So I bought it,I'm going to peel back the left side just enough to see if there are perf hole marks there,if there are then this stamp was placed on the card over-top of where the first stamp fell off,was it altered,who knows,no-one out there reading this can say yes or no by a picture,if it's a straight edge under the left side then it's altered,O-well.
Believe me I'm not wearing dollar sign glasses LOL,I know the odds and have never found anything yet that was of any value.I bought this only because I know who I got it from.
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Brando,
I was trying to help, knowledge is the best weapon in the battle to detect the large amounts of fakes and altered stamps out there. Note that many place the number of faked and altered US coils stamps listed at greater than 80%.
Faking and altering stamps is also not something that just started with eBay, they were faking and altering stamps by the late 1800s. (R. B. Earee's 500+ page 'Album Weeds' of faked and forged stamps was published within 45 years of the very first stamps that were issued.) So even stamps that do not look freshly altered can easily be fake.
The key to your stamp being real is if the sides are parallel.
If you do not feel that the feedback you have gotten here is of value, then by all means spend the money and send it in for certification. Please report the results when the certification comes back.
Don
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07:00:38am
" .... no-one out there reading this can say yes or no by a picture, if it's a straight edge under the left side then it's altered,O-well ..."
I mean this with all due respect but your statement is less than logical. Members, many of whom are very knowledgeable about certain issues, can and often do point out that certain characteristics they see in a picture demonstrate quite clearly that a given stamp or cancellation has been altered or is totally bogus.
So saying "no" is usually not that difficult, saying "yes" however, that something is genuine is much more difficult and I suspect the best you might get is, "Yes it appears genuine," get it certified.
It would be very nice if some reputable expertization service is able to state it is genuine and I am sure the members who have written here will all be very happy for you, envious perhaps, but happy, however, til then it is a suspect item. One other thing the seller may not be a dealer and may not have expertise, nor have any part in altering it, if it has indeed been altered. These things have been floating around the hobby for years. For instance, if I were the dealer, I would have no interest in it except as a post card or perhaps in the date and place of cancellation. And finally I would have sold it in pure innocence.
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Hi,As I said I purchased the postcard form a lady I know didn't fake it,I got it to look under the left side to see if there are old perf marks,if there is then this stamp is the second stamp put on the postcard,is it the original stamp trimmed ? no one one here can say by looking at a picture,it's impossible,so when it gets here I'll look under it and let you know.If it has a straight line which I fully expect line then yes "O-well I'm out 5 bucks",if it has perf marks under the stamp then I'll sent in,any of you out there that looked under this stamp if it was yours and saw perf marks under the left a didn't send it in should be stamp collector's not stamp hunters,this is how stuff is found.
Anyway this forum is not for me,you guys will never find a rare stamp,me either probably but this is how you try,you'll buy them from other people who hunt for them like I do,good-bye.
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Marlon Brando would never have just quit. I'll bet a genuine U.S. Scott 316 Brando comes back.
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Brando, in your first post you asked for opinions. Obviously you didn't get the answers/advice that you wanted. If you don't want to hear something other than what you want to hear, then don't ask others for their opinions.
Check the stamp out all you want. You bought it. However, be realistic too.
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Eureka.......and it only took two days
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One of the things I like about philately is that it forces you to really be observant and really figure out what you have. You have to be realistic and pragmatic. These are skills I am not naturally good at and studying and collecting stamps and postal history are a fun way to hone those life skills.
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11:00:33pm
I just purchased this on a popular website,it's in the mail to me now but I wanted to get some opinions on it(and get it's picture out the now before I receive it so I have proof I didn't alter it which I would never do),I have collected for 10 years and have never had any trouble with a stamp ID but I think this has a real shot at a 316,it looks like the first stamp on the postcard wasn't glued on enough and fell off and the suspected 316 was put on,probably at the P.O when it was noticed without postage on it by the sender(just a guess),all hopeful wishing on my part but it looks good to me,what do you guys think,the "first stamp" perf hole marks look higher than the suspect 316 perf holes,I know it could have been trimmed and reattached by why,I bought it for under $5 bucks so I don't think it was faked by the seller and I don't even have it yet so it wasn't me,lots of puzzles here.
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re: Possible first used 316.
Look on the right side of the stamp.
What are all of those discolorations that look like there used to be perforations?
It's definitelty a 300 with natural straight edge at left and trimmed perfs at right.
No doubt on this one.
Why would the seller offer such a gem for "only" $5?
Because it's only worth 25 cents.
As a bonus, you may find that returning it costs as much as keeping it, and therefore you do nothing. You may provide negative feedback, but then you notice there is LOTS of negative feedback. The problem is that this person sells so much stuff that a few negatives are no deterrence.
Don't look at what's possible, look to validate what's likely. But you may yet find a rarity! You're more likely to find it in a box of old records or an Estate sale of an old collector, that an online listing.
Lars
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re: Possible first used 316.
It is fun to hunt for rare treasures but you have to keep in mind that the simpler explanation is always the most likely explanation (Occam's razor).
First, let’s consider the known population of #316s. There are recorded nine pairs, three line pairs, and an unused single, for a grand total of 25 stamps. There are NO known used #316s. On the other hand, there were 11 BILLION #300 stamps released. So what is most likely?
Second, consider the history here. The #316 coil stamps were an experiment, regular sheets of 400 were printed and then perforated in only one direction. These were then cut into strips of 20 and the strips were then pasted together to form rolls. So how likely is it that an extremely limited experimental stamp would be sent to a Hot Springs AK post office for testing instead of just using the local Washington post offices?
Third, the perf shadow on the right hand side clearly indicates something has gone on with this postcard, they didn’t simply appear for no reason. The shadowed perfs perfectly fit the stamp. If the first stamp fell off, as you mention, then the most likely situation is that it would be replaced with a stamp from the same source of the same type. All indications and most likely explanation is that this stamp has been altered.
So the odds of this being a real used #316 are staggering remote, far exceeding any lotto drawing. Occam's razor. If you came home this afternoon and found some tress knocked over in your yard. Which is more likely; that aliens landed and their space ship knocked them over or that a thunderstorm simply blew them over?
"...all hopeful wishing on my part..."
The search for a treasure is always fun but I recommend that we all start with the assumption that a stamp is the most common variety (or is a reprint, faked, or altered) and not a newly discovered 'one of' rarity. Work your way through the process of elimination with this assumption and remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Don
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09:16:09pm
re: Possible first used 316.
Hi,I actually purchased it because of the discolorations that are old perf holes that the glue shows up,the person I bought it off is a postcard dealer not a stamp dealer,I have bought probably 20 or cards from them over the years,I've got nice 578's and some nice Schermack's from them,a real nice Scott 352 last month too,she doesn't care what the stamps are or check them,she just takes front and back pictures and puts them up for sale at $4.99,so the stamp wasn't altered by her for sure,she has 100,000 postcards for sale.
So I bought it,I'm going to peel back the left side just enough to see if there are perf hole marks there,if there are then this stamp was placed on the card over-top of where the first stamp fell off,was it altered,who knows,no-one out there reading this can say yes or no by a picture,if it's a straight edge under the left side then it's altered,O-well.
Believe me I'm not wearing dollar sign glasses LOL,I know the odds and have never found anything yet that was of any value.I bought this only because I know who I got it from.
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re: Possible first used 316.
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re: Possible first used 316.
Brando,
I was trying to help, knowledge is the best weapon in the battle to detect the large amounts of fakes and altered stamps out there. Note that many place the number of faked and altered US coils stamps listed at greater than 80%.
Faking and altering stamps is also not something that just started with eBay, they were faking and altering stamps by the late 1800s. (R. B. Earee's 500+ page 'Album Weeds' of faked and forged stamps was published within 45 years of the very first stamps that were issued.) So even stamps that do not look freshly altered can easily be fake.
The key to your stamp being real is if the sides are parallel.
If you do not feel that the feedback you have gotten here is of value, then by all means spend the money and send it in for certification. Please report the results when the certification comes back.
Don
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
31 Aug 2017
07:00:38am
re: Possible first used 316.
" .... no-one out there reading this can say yes or no by a picture, if it's a straight edge under the left side then it's altered,O-well ..."
I mean this with all due respect but your statement is less than logical. Members, many of whom are very knowledgeable about certain issues, can and often do point out that certain characteristics they see in a picture demonstrate quite clearly that a given stamp or cancellation has been altered or is totally bogus.
So saying "no" is usually not that difficult, saying "yes" however, that something is genuine is much more difficult and I suspect the best you might get is, "Yes it appears genuine," get it certified.
It would be very nice if some reputable expertization service is able to state it is genuine and I am sure the members who have written here will all be very happy for you, envious perhaps, but happy, however, til then it is a suspect item. One other thing the seller may not be a dealer and may not have expertise, nor have any part in altering it, if it has indeed been altered. These things have been floating around the hobby for years. For instance, if I were the dealer, I would have no interest in it except as a post card or perhaps in the date and place of cancellation. And finally I would have sold it in pure innocence.
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10:35:58am
re: Possible first used 316.
Hi,As I said I purchased the postcard form a lady I know didn't fake it,I got it to look under the left side to see if there are old perf marks,if there is then this stamp is the second stamp put on the postcard,is it the original stamp trimmed ? no one one here can say by looking at a picture,it's impossible,so when it gets here I'll look under it and let you know.If it has a straight line which I fully expect line then yes "O-well I'm out 5 bucks",if it has perf marks under the stamp then I'll sent in,any of you out there that looked under this stamp if it was yours and saw perf marks under the left a didn't send it in should be stamp collector's not stamp hunters,this is how stuff is found.
Anyway this forum is not for me,you guys will never find a rare stamp,me either probably but this is how you try,you'll buy them from other people who hunt for them like I do,good-bye.
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12:11:17pm
re: Possible first used 316.
Marlon Brando would never have just quit. I'll bet a genuine U.S. Scott 316 Brando comes back.
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01:41:00pm
re: Possible first used 316.
Brando, in your first post you asked for opinions. Obviously you didn't get the answers/advice that you wanted. If you don't want to hear something other than what you want to hear, then don't ask others for their opinions.
Check the stamp out all you want. You bought it. However, be realistic too.
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re: Possible first used 316.
Eureka.......and it only took two days
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re: Possible first used 316.
One of the things I like about philately is that it forces you to really be observant and really figure out what you have. You have to be realistic and pragmatic. These are skills I am not naturally good at and studying and collecting stamps and postal history are a fun way to hone those life skills.
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