Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
07:16:53pm
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Hi Harvey,
Could you show us the stamp please?
It's not listed in SG or Michel either.
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07:50:27pm
Sorry Nigel, camera is not in working order at the moment. It's the red Romania RA2,postal tax stamp from 1915 with the TIMBRU/DE AJUTOR overprint upside down. I have the green RA1 with overprint right side up, it makes an interesting pair. I've got to buy a new camera - hopefully soon!
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No problem Harvey.
I just wondered if the overprint looked genuine.
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08:20:30am
When I can get my camera replaced I'll send a picture - it looks fine, but with all the fakes out there.... The overprints on RA1 and RA2 look the same to me.
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Having a flatbed scanner dissuades me completely from ever using a handheld camera to document a stamp or a cover. Too many advantages to the scanner to list.
-Paul
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Just a moment. RA2 inverted is strange! None of the Romanian specialized catalogs (and I have them all!) mention that a stamp like that exists. I will ask my philatelic connections there also.
An example.
In Scott is mentioned that CB1 exists with overprint "1 Mai 1941 Jamboreea Nationala". It took me some time to convince Scott that this is a fake overprint. They just continue to keep it as a private overprint! Ha-Ha. A lot of fake "overprints" on Romanian stamps were sold at Ebay in recent years as genuine! More than that. It is documented in Romanian literature that classic Romanian fake stamps were declared genuine by "experts" in other countries,than Romania, and issued certificate of authenticity! Sold for thousand of Euro!
Waiting to see the scan or picture of RA2.
Virgil
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"None of the Romanian specialized catalogs (and I have them all!)"
I'm becoming interested in Romania, and I'd appreciate knowing which references you would recommend
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There are three well known (in Romania) catalogs:
1. Catalogul Marcilor Postale Romanesti, published in 1974; one volume;
2. Catalogul Marcilor Postale Romanesti, published in 1984; two volumes;
3. Catalogul Timbrelor Postale Romanesti, published in 3 volumes, 2006, 2008 and 2009;
4. Catalogul Timbrelor Fiscale Romanesti, published in 2000.
The first two are the "bibles" of the Romanian stamps. The third is getting more appreciated, too. Maybe #3 can be still available. Contact directly the publishing house at: zimbrulcarpatin@xnet.ro
These catalogs are not available in book stores anymore. It is hard to get them. Working with Scott catalog, with a big effort I found the first two catalogs and offered them to Scott library. Anytime I "fight" with Scott, I use these catalogs to make my point of view.
An excellent publication is: Studii Filatelice Brasovene. This is a great journal, published in Romanian and English languages. It is extremely appreciated abroad. I can supply more info how to get it. Graphics is the highest possible quality and stamps pictures are extremely great. But it is not coming cheap!
Excellent "blogs" about Romanian Philately:
https://romanianstampnews.blogspot.com/ with some English translation. Many times there are presentations of philatelic news about other countries. Recently, October 2018, was presented the collection (sold) of William H Gross.
http://federatia-filatelica.ro/ the official site of Romanian Philatelic Federation (Association).
Good luck, Dave! If you have other questions, do not hesitate to contact me.
Virgil
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I liked the blog, went ok to translate to Norwegian. Link saved.
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Hi Harvey,
I started to contact some experts in Romania.
Do you have a story about RA2 inverted OVP?
Vigil
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06:48:16pm
I really didn't realize what I was starting here. I will get my camera up and running soon - got a few other things to do first. Actually, I procrastinate and will get to it when I can. I noticed the stamp a few weeks ago when I was looking through my Romanian stamps. I noticed RA1 was right side up and right alongside it was RA2 which has an inverted overprint. The overprints appear to be identical. I have no idea how long I have had the stamp and I certainly didn't buy it because of the overprint variety. I don't collect Romania as such but I have a small collection in my Scott's International volI. My gut tells me I've had RA1 and RA2 for a very long time. I do collect Poland and Russia where inverted overprints exist quite often. It would be nice to have something rare and I really will try to send you a picture fairly soon! If it is rare I suppose I would have to have it authenticated - something I've never had to do before. I don't care about value, but it is always nice to discover something a bit different!
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Virgil, thank you very much for the information. Now I'll start the hunt to add these to my shelf!
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What I got till now. Some of the BOB stamps were not investigated and studied very well.
As I mentioned, Romanian catalogs and Michel do not show that RA2 with inverted OVP may exist. But it may be possible to exist. Anyhow, I will try to get more info from Romania.
When you will get a scan or picture of it, make it clear, big enough and place it to a link to be easily accessed. Thanks.
Virgil
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Hi Dave,
All those books are written in Romanian. Good luck with Romanian language! It is closed to Italian and French. It is based on Latin language. 15% of vocabulary is coming from Slavic influence.
An advice for everyone who would like to get classic Romanian stamps. There are a lot of forgeries, some extremely very good. I am not an expert. This is the reason that I will not buy first ~100 stamps in mint condition without a very careful consideration.
A link to Romanian stamps, including forgeries is: http://www.romaniastamps.com/. There are many other sites considering Romanian forgeries.
www.romfilatelia.ro is the official agency (not Romanian Post Office!) printing Romanian stamps. They exploit collectors, issuing a lot of stamps, some very expensive. And strange, many stamps are not offered to Postal Service, which makes almost impossible to find complete circulated sets! For somebody really interested, I can explain this strange situation.
It is interesting how a low value stamp like RA2 (40c unused) opened a can of ...
I stop here!
Virgil
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Hi Harvey,
Is RA2 inverted ovp. ready to be seen?
Thanks, Virgil
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02:07:31pm
Hi VirgilP
If I don't get my camera set up this weekend I'm going to get a friend of mine to send a picture to your personal E-Mail and maybe I can get you to post it for me as part of a message from you. I am one of the worst procrastinators imaginable. When my wife died a few years ago I lost the person who bugged me to do things. I'm getting better, but it's slow!
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01:28:15pm
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01:30:54pm
Hi all
I got a friend to take the picture of RA1 and RA2 for me in the proper format and I think in uploaded OK in the message before this one. If it's actually there I need an opinion! Thanks!
Addition: I'm not sure if they are real or fake, but they both look about the same. Also if you invert an overprint that is a bit above the center of the stamp it should end up a bit below the center of the stamp - that fits. I really doubt if the market would allow it to be worth much. I have a couple Russia inverted overprints with a CV of about $100. I'd be happy with a similar valuation and at that value it really wouldn't be worth it to have it authenticated.
Another addition: The two R's look a bit different, unless one is smudged.
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Unfortunately, there are too many differences to justify a genuine invert
The letters on the invert have rounded ends instead of square ones
Both sections of the B are the same size
The opening of the O is narrower
The tail of the J is shorter
All the letters are rough and blurred as if applied with a hand stamp
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07:06:02pm
I guess I agree, but it would have to have been done at least 30 years ago since I had this as part of an early lot as far as I can remember. Why would anyone bother to do that and then have it end up as part of a lot? It really makes no sense, but then I guess it really doesn't have to. Does anyone else out there have an overprint to compare, either real or false to see how consistent the overprint is? Oh well, so much for selling it to pay off a mortgage - good thing I don't have one! I also collect Poland and Russia and those countries are rife with reproductions, especially overprints. So I guess Romania is no different!
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Few Romanian connections told me that there is no knowledge about a reversed OVP on the red 10B stamp, in Scott listed as RA2. No Romanian catalogs (see all 3 listed before) would mention that such a stamp would exist.
Not being an expert, and I emphasize it, observing and comparing the letters with the letters from my 5 stamps (all genuine), I can say:
1. Leg of R from "TIMBRU" is not straight;
2. Letter E from "DE" is deformed and different that real E;
3. Letters D are a little different, too;
3. Bottom part of letter A from "AJUTOR" is not aligned with J or the letter is poorly printed;
4. Letter R from "AJUTOR" is quite different than real R.
5. The complete overprint is a very low quality and does not look to be done by printing machines.
Anyhow, my "expertise", is based on what I see, what I have and what I know from Romanian catalogs. And not being an expert, all I said is just based on my observation.
Virgil
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Sorry, missed to add my scan!
See the quality of overprint.
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One more larger scan
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08:25:07pm
Mine are nowhere near the quality, I just can't figure out why anyone would bother. I'll leave them there as forgeries, a conversation piece anyway. Thanks for the help! At least most of the early Poland forgeries would have had significant value if real.
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I do not know anything about Poland forgeries. But Romania RA2 reversed OVP was an interesting situation for me. Thanks, Virgil
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Jun 2019
07:16:53pm
Usually inverted overprints are listed in Scott's - I have a few Russian and Poland ones. This one is not noted in Scott's for Romania. Do I have something a bit rare, or is it too common to mention. The inverted Poland and Russia overprints seem to list for about $100. It's not the $$$$ I care about, it's just nice to find something unusual. I'll never sell my stamp collection - just one more thing for my executors to worry about!!!
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi Harvey,
Could you show us the stamp please?
It's not listed in SG or Michel either.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Jun 2019
07:50:27pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Sorry Nigel, camera is not in working order at the moment. It's the red Romania RA2,postal tax stamp from 1915 with the TIMBRU/DE AJUTOR overprint upside down. I have the green RA1 with overprint right side up, it makes an interesting pair. I've got to buy a new camera - hopefully soon!
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
No problem Harvey.
I just wondered if the overprint looked genuine.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Jun 2019
08:20:30am
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
When I can get my camera replaced I'll send a picture - it looks fine, but with all the fakes out there.... The overprints on RA1 and RA2 look the same to me.
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08:24:20am
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Having a flatbed scanner dissuades me completely from ever using a handheld camera to document a stamp or a cover. Too many advantages to the scanner to list.
-Paul
2 Members
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01:05:09am
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Just a moment. RA2 inverted is strange! None of the Romanian specialized catalogs (and I have them all!) mention that a stamp like that exists. I will ask my philatelic connections there also.
An example.
In Scott is mentioned that CB1 exists with overprint "1 Mai 1941 Jamboreea Nationala". It took me some time to convince Scott that this is a fake overprint. They just continue to keep it as a private overprint! Ha-Ha. A lot of fake "overprints" on Romanian stamps were sold at Ebay in recent years as genuine! More than that. It is documented in Romanian literature that classic Romanian fake stamps were declared genuine by "experts" in other countries,than Romania, and issued certificate of authenticity! Sold for thousand of Euro!
Waiting to see the scan or picture of RA2.
Virgil
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
"None of the Romanian specialized catalogs (and I have them all!)"
I'm becoming interested in Romania, and I'd appreciate knowing which references you would recommend
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11:35:58am
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
There are three well known (in Romania) catalogs:
1. Catalogul Marcilor Postale Romanesti, published in 1974; one volume;
2. Catalogul Marcilor Postale Romanesti, published in 1984; two volumes;
3. Catalogul Timbrelor Postale Romanesti, published in 3 volumes, 2006, 2008 and 2009;
4. Catalogul Timbrelor Fiscale Romanesti, published in 2000.
The first two are the "bibles" of the Romanian stamps. The third is getting more appreciated, too. Maybe #3 can be still available. Contact directly the publishing house at: zimbrulcarpatin@xnet.ro
These catalogs are not available in book stores anymore. It is hard to get them. Working with Scott catalog, with a big effort I found the first two catalogs and offered them to Scott library. Anytime I "fight" with Scott, I use these catalogs to make my point of view.
An excellent publication is: Studii Filatelice Brasovene. This is a great journal, published in Romanian and English languages. It is extremely appreciated abroad. I can supply more info how to get it. Graphics is the highest possible quality and stamps pictures are extremely great. But it is not coming cheap!
Excellent "blogs" about Romanian Philately:
https://romanianstampnews.blogspot.com/ with some English translation. Many times there are presentations of philatelic news about other countries. Recently, October 2018, was presented the collection (sold) of William H Gross.
http://federatia-filatelica.ro/ the official site of Romanian Philatelic Federation (Association).
Good luck, Dave! If you have other questions, do not hesitate to contact me.
Virgil
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
I liked the blog, went ok to translate to Norwegian. Link saved.
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12:13:24pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi Harvey,
I started to contact some experts in Romania.
Do you have a story about RA2 inverted OVP?
Vigil
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
30 Jun 2019
06:48:16pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
I really didn't realize what I was starting here. I will get my camera up and running soon - got a few other things to do first. Actually, I procrastinate and will get to it when I can. I noticed the stamp a few weeks ago when I was looking through my Romanian stamps. I noticed RA1 was right side up and right alongside it was RA2 which has an inverted overprint. The overprints appear to be identical. I have no idea how long I have had the stamp and I certainly didn't buy it because of the overprint variety. I don't collect Romania as such but I have a small collection in my Scott's International volI. My gut tells me I've had RA1 and RA2 for a very long time. I do collect Poland and Russia where inverted overprints exist quite often. It would be nice to have something rare and I really will try to send you a picture fairly soon! If it is rare I suppose I would have to have it authenticated - something I've never had to do before. I don't care about value, but it is always nice to discover something a bit different!
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Virgil, thank you very much for the information. Now I'll start the hunt to add these to my shelf!
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09:28:40pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
What I got till now. Some of the BOB stamps were not investigated and studied very well.
As I mentioned, Romanian catalogs and Michel do not show that RA2 with inverted OVP may exist. But it may be possible to exist. Anyhow, I will try to get more info from Romania.
When you will get a scan or picture of it, make it clear, big enough and place it to a link to be easily accessed. Thanks.
Virgil
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10:05:01pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi Dave,
All those books are written in Romanian. Good luck with Romanian language! It is closed to Italian and French. It is based on Latin language. 15% of vocabulary is coming from Slavic influence.
An advice for everyone who would like to get classic Romanian stamps. There are a lot of forgeries, some extremely very good. I am not an expert. This is the reason that I will not buy first ~100 stamps in mint condition without a very careful consideration.
A link to Romanian stamps, including forgeries is: http://www.romaniastamps.com/. There are many other sites considering Romanian forgeries.
www.romfilatelia.ro is the official agency (not Romanian Post Office!) printing Romanian stamps. They exploit collectors, issuing a lot of stamps, some very expensive. And strange, many stamps are not offered to Postal Service, which makes almost impossible to find complete circulated sets! For somebody really interested, I can explain this strange situation.
It is interesting how a low value stamp like RA2 (40c unused) opened a can of ...
I stop here!
Virgil
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11:01:29pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi Harvey,
Is RA2 inverted ovp. ready to be seen?
Thanks, Virgil
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Jul 2019
02:07:31pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi VirgilP
If I don't get my camera set up this weekend I'm going to get a friend of mine to send a picture to your personal E-Mail and maybe I can get you to post it for me as part of a message from you. I am one of the worst procrastinators imaginable. When my wife died a few years ago I lost the person who bugged me to do things. I'm getting better, but it's slow!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
18 Jul 2019
01:28:15pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
18 Jul 2019
01:30:54pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Hi all
I got a friend to take the picture of RA1 and RA2 for me in the proper format and I think in uploaded OK in the message before this one. If it's actually there I need an opinion! Thanks!
Addition: I'm not sure if they are real or fake, but they both look about the same. Also if you invert an overprint that is a bit above the center of the stamp it should end up a bit below the center of the stamp - that fits. I really doubt if the market would allow it to be worth much. I have a couple Russia inverted overprints with a CV of about $100. I'd be happy with a similar valuation and at that value it really wouldn't be worth it to have it authenticated.
Another addition: The two R's look a bit different, unless one is smudged.
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re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Unfortunately, there are too many differences to justify a genuine invert
The letters on the invert have rounded ends instead of square ones
Both sections of the B are the same size
The opening of the O is narrower
The tail of the J is shorter
All the letters are rough and blurred as if applied with a hand stamp
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
18 Jul 2019
07:06:02pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
I guess I agree, but it would have to have been done at least 30 years ago since I had this as part of an early lot as far as I can remember. Why would anyone bother to do that and then have it end up as part of a lot? It really makes no sense, but then I guess it really doesn't have to. Does anyone else out there have an overprint to compare, either real or false to see how consistent the overprint is? Oh well, so much for selling it to pay off a mortgage - good thing I don't have one! I also collect Poland and Russia and those countries are rife with reproductions, especially overprints. So I guess Romania is no different!
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08:07:58pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Few Romanian connections told me that there is no knowledge about a reversed OVP on the red 10B stamp, in Scott listed as RA2. No Romanian catalogs (see all 3 listed before) would mention that such a stamp would exist.
Not being an expert, and I emphasize it, observing and comparing the letters with the letters from my 5 stamps (all genuine), I can say:
1. Leg of R from "TIMBRU" is not straight;
2. Letter E from "DE" is deformed and different that real E;
3. Letters D are a little different, too;
3. Bottom part of letter A from "AJUTOR" is not aligned with J or the letter is poorly printed;
4. Letter R from "AJUTOR" is quite different than real R.
5. The complete overprint is a very low quality and does not look to be done by printing machines.
Anyhow, my "expertise", is based on what I see, what I have and what I know from Romanian catalogs. And not being an expert, all I said is just based on my observation.
Virgil
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08:12:55pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Sorry, missed to add my scan!
See the quality of overprint.
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08:18:38pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
One more larger scan
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
18 Jul 2019
08:25:07pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
Mine are nowhere near the quality, I just can't figure out why anyone would bother. I'll leave them there as forgeries, a conversation piece anyway. Thanks for the help! At least most of the early Poland forgeries would have had significant value if real.
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11:01:13pm
re: Inverted overprint Romania RA2
I do not know anything about Poland forgeries. But Romania RA2 reversed OVP was an interesting situation for me. Thanks, Virgil
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