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What we collect!
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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : CTO stamps

 

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

08 Nov 2019
01:53:03pm
Being a collector of Russia and Poland up to 1985 I have to deal with a lot of CTOs. If I'm missing one or two from a series of CTO stamps and see the series mint on a buying site for a reasonable price I will replace them. I have always assumed that the value of these stamps is about half the used price, so 10 cents becomes 5 cents. Value really doesn't matter but am I in the right ball park? In most cases I assume the value of the CTO stamp is less than the value of the mount so I usually just use a hinge. I have never seen the following "CTO OG" so I assume the hinge doesn't affect whatever value is there. Does any one out there waste good mounting on CTO stamps? I treat them as album fillers for the newer stamps and spend most of my money on the older part of the collections. Who started this fad of issuing CTO stamps and about when?
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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
rjan
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08 Nov 2019
02:03:25pm
re: CTO stamps

Most of eastern Europe and Russia have years of CTO stamp sets. I found these were more a danger of sticking and ruining pages so I soak out the gum and hinge the stamps in whenever possible.

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michael78651

08 Nov 2019
02:29:53pm
re: CTO stamps

All of my stamps are in mounts, regardless of the value. You are correct that for a good number of stamps, the mount costs more than the stamp!

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okstamps
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08 Nov 2019
03:41:31pm
re: CTO stamps

A number of Western European countries are presently selling sets of CTO stamps as used, with the selling price being the same as for a mint newly issued stamp (face value). A number of European collectors are building collections of these things and describing them as used. I have come across collections, sets and individual stamps in such condition and inadvertently purchased them assuming they were postally used. Germany and Switzerland are two countries where I am sure that I have such issues on hand. So European CTO issues have not ceased to exist with the demise of the communist regimes in Central and Eastern Europe.

Many other countries in the Middle East and Africa also issued CTO examples of their stamps. CTO examples from these countries are generally easy to find whereas postally used examples are almost impossible to locate.

As mentioned by another poster above, the gum on these stamps is useless and if hinged I usually soak off both any hinge remainders and the gum before posting them for sale.

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michael78651

08 Nov 2019
04:11:59pm
re: CTO stamps

Collecting CTO stamps is also popular in Australia.

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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

08 Nov 2019
05:36:52pm
re: CTO stamps

I could be convinced more if "CTO" meant Cheap To Own.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

08 Nov 2019
07:53:39pm
re: CTO stamps

Just one comment about one of the comments. If you soak the glue off a CTO it could be confused with a used stamp. I know some people assume any stamp with a cancellation on about a quarter of the stamp is a CTO, but it could also be a lightly cancelled used stamp. I would rather leave the glue on the stamp to eliminate confusion when/if the stamp is sold. I see a lot of stamps for sale on various sites called used that sure look as if they are cancelled to order.

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
michael78651

08 Nov 2019
09:17:08pm
re: CTO stamps

CTO cancels are usually distinct from postal cancels.

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StampCollector
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08 Nov 2019
10:32:25pm

Approvals
re: CTO stamps

...and the cancel is almost identical on every stamp on the set if a set is involved. I don't know the origens of CTO but when I started collecting stamps back in 1959 there were already around, hated it then and still hating them today.

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colnect.com/en/collectors/collector/StampCollector1
okstamps
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08 Nov 2019
11:27:57pm
re: CTO stamps

CTO cancels are usually very distinctive and easy to differentiate from cancels on stamps that have passed through the mail stream. When I make my decision on whether to soak off the gum and residual hinge(s), I will first look at the cancel and see whether it is of the distinctive CTO cancel type. They are often printed on the stamp just as if the stamp went through another run through a printing press. Or the cancel is very sharply printed, perfectly centered onto the corner of stamp, with none of the usual messiness and partial printing of an actual postal cancel. And I describe all such stamps in my auctions as CTO issues that have had the gum and hinge remainder(s) removed. If the gum is pristine on the back of the CTO issue, I will usually leave it alone but still describe the stamp as being CTO with full Mint-Never-Hinged gum on the back.

That is how I handle CTO issues in my auctions. Others are free to deal with them as they wish with no complaints from me.

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okstamps
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08 Nov 2019
11:54:12pm
re: CTO stamps

I believe certain countries started to create CTO issues in order to sell more stamps to collectors, especially countries that issued numerous stamps well beyond that necessary to meet their postal needs. Most typical world-wide collectors could afford the much cheaper CTO issues compared to much higher priced mint issues. Since many of these issues saw little usage on mail, authentic used stamps would be difficult to obtain. And it gave the government in these countries another revenue stream that otherwise would not exist if only mint stamps were sold.

When I first started collecting many decades ago, CTO issues were plentiful in the packets of stamps that I received through the mail from stamp dealers (approvals). I would pick out the stamps I wanted, pay a few cents for each stamp I retained, and mailed the rest back to the stamp dealer along with my payment. I would keep the CTO issues if I didn't have another copy of that stamp already in my collection and thought nothing of it. It wasn't until I was "educated" by the American stamp hobby through Linn's Stamp News and other publications that CTO issues were evil that I started looking disdainfully upon them.

I may be wrong, but my impression is that CTO issues being "bad" is a North American thing and not so much a world-wide thing. As I mentioned previously, several Western European countries are actively creating them today for the philatelic market. And I still remember the "Black Blot" program that Scott started that for some time refused to list issues from many countries because they thought the stamps were issued only to rob collectors of their money. Many of these issues are still not listed in Scott because of that policy from decades ago. That upset me because some catalog editor was deciding what was appropriate for me to collect rather than just listing all the stamps a country issued that were made available for postal use. Michel and other stamp catalog companies did not make this decision and as a result I now have their catalogs to fill in the holes that Scott created artificially in their own catalogs.

That is the one thing that has always upset me about the American philatelic market - the burning desire from the self-defined experts to determine what is appropriate for another person to collect. I stay away from local stamp clubs and any type of philatelic get together just for this reason. It may be part of the reason the hobby appears to be dying; the "experts" drive away the casual collectors.

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jmh67

09 Nov 2019
11:09:14am
re: CTO stamps

I agree with okstamps on the topic of why CTOs were issued at all. I'd like to add that I do not believe they are evil per se. They are just another grade of stamps in addition to mint, unused, and postally used, and as long as the collectors know what they have got, all is well. Only if someone tries to pass CTOs off as postally used stamps, things turn fishy, but it may not be as clear-cut a distinction as it initially seems. My impression is that there is a whole gamut of cancellation types.

As far as I am concerned, I prefer postally used stamps, but will accept CTOs as placeholders, and if I find a replacement, perhaps a topical collector will be happy receiving my CTO stamp.

As for the "black spot", I cannot comment on American catalogs, never having seen one, but I remember having found a similar mark (actually, it was a black lozenge) in a 1957 Michel catalog. It was used for any sort of "speculative issues", among them those values which were printed in low numbers and whose sale was subject to restrictions. More roundabout ways of marking such issues (but not restricted to these) were prices in slanted type (meaning that the valuation is difficult), or price entries of the form "-.-" which meant that the stamps existed, but no valuation was currently possible.

Anyway, I don't think that there are many countries left who have not joined the club and do not issue way more stamps than necessary. It has also become rather common to sell certain stamps only by mail order or at selected outlets. Hence we would have catalogs full of "black marks" nowadays, and this might be the reason why we do not see these marks any more. Perhaps we do not need them at all. Let everyone collect what they like, nobody forces us to have a "complete" collection, whatever this means.

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ikeyPikey
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09 Nov 2019
12:45:30pm
re: CTO stamps

'
CTOs began simply enough: many collectors, back in the day, wanted one mint & one used.

The CTO (a/k/a courtesy cancel) meant that you could subscribe to both, and the new issue dealer could sell you both, and you did not have to maintain ever-growing want lists for used copies of stamps you might never see.

"... They are often printed on the stamp just as if the stamp went through another run through a printing press ..."



So close!

They often WERE printed on the stamp by another run through a printing press, or by adding a plate to a multi-plate press.

Why? Hand-cancelling gave an inconsistent result ... talk about printer's waste!

"... Scott started that for some time refused to list issues from many countries because they thought the stamps were issued only to rob collectors of their money ..."



During 1971-3, Ajman alone "issued" just shy of THREE THOUSAND stamps (Colnect's count).

Q/ Why should every Scott Standard Postage Stamp Catalogue issued in the last forty-odd years carry hundreds of pages that no collector could ever use?

Q/ Why should every Scott International Album issued in the last forty-odd years carry hundreds of pages that no collector could ever fill?

Legions of collectors did not want to pay for all those useless pages, let alone have to look at them, like, forever.

Legions of dealers did not want to pay for, and carry all those useless pages in stock.

Scott did not want to pay the cost of adding all that ballast to their products, and had a responsibility to listen to their customers.

The Ajmani tail was wagging the hobby dog ... as were many others.

Now, write Scott a nice note, and thank them!

"... Many of these issues are still not listed in Scott because of that policy from decades ago ..."



Hurray!

"... That upset me because some catalog editor was deciding what was appropriate for me to collect rather than just listing all the stamps a country issued that were made available for postal use ..."



Google the word "editor".

They were "deciding what was appropriate" to include in their catalog. There are zillions of things not in their catalog about which they have no opinion, but which you are free to philatelically collect: postal history (vs FDCs), stamp designer autographs, train schedules, passenger ship menus ...

"... That is the one thing that has always upset me about the American philatelic market - the burning desire from the self-defined experts to determine what is appropriate for another person to collect ..."



I've met exactly one ethnic German stamp collector; my guess is that you've met none.

"... I stay away from local stamp clubs and any type of philatelic get together just for this reason ... the "experts" drive away the casual collectors ..."



I cannot think of a human activity in which people do not sort themselves out by knowledge, experience, wealth, connections, style ... can you?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey (who pretty much never doubts whether a perfectly corner-canceled stamp is CTO/not)
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"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Brechinite

09 Nov 2019
02:27:42pm
re: CTO stamps

Let me tell you a story.

I joined a Philatelic Society back in the 1980's. The Presidents Display was GB Penny Blacks and GB Twopenny Blues (not your common or garden perforated ones, the real McCoy) off piece and on piece, in strips of three and blocks of 4, MNH as well. To be honest he was a bit of a bore on the subject. The main point is that he was part of a clique that could see no further than GB Line Engraved, they looked down on everyone else and what they collected.

There was one member who they constantly ignored, because he only collected Paintings on Stamps especially those cheap CTO's from Hungary, Mongolia and the likes.

What the clique missed was that this member knew all about the painting on every stamp he owned. Who painted it, the artists life story, when it was painted, who owned the painting, which gallery/museum you could view it in. The man had a bewildering knowledge of his subject and could illustrate it passionately and amusingly when you talked to him.

He/we got more enjoyment out of his cheap CTO's than from the members of the GB Line Engraved clique put together.



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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

09 Nov 2019
07:35:24pm
re: CTO stamps

".... I don't know the origins of CTO but
when I started collecting stamps back in
1959 there were already around, hated it
then and still hating them today ...."


Image Not Found

About a year go we discussed these Dutch remainders
that were cancelled and sold to whomever wanted a set
on he last day of usage. They were to raise funds for
the care, well being, and housing of Tuberculosis
patients, but had a limited validity time.

In the 1970s I managed to find and save a set with actual
postal cancels for my collection and several times have
pointed out to otherwise (supposedly) honest dealers that
they were offering a set of remainders (CTOs, listed at
$2.00 - 3.00 according to Mother Scott. )
at the genuine
postally cancelled "SCV $30.00 or so" value.

One dealer at that time had a shop in Centereach, L.I., N.Y.,
whom I visited just about every Saturday morning had such a
($35) set in his counter display pages. He made at least a
show of puzzlement, and opened his Scott Catalog, to verify
what I had said.
" Oh, i did not see that minor note," as he removed it from
the black Vario stock page.
Fast forward a few months and one Saturday I noticed what I
assumed was the same set back in his display page.
"Hey, George, that set of Dutch remainders must have slipped
into the counter book."

("Oh golly, Gee whiz, Shucks, Smokin' Rockets Commander, or
some other somewhat innocuous exclamation), I meant to
reprice them,"
so he then changed the little slips of paper
that we've all seen next to such stamp sets.
At least one more time I pointed to a Dutch TB set over the
four or five years I frequented his shop.
Over time, I found several sets of stamps that were grossly over
priced, always too high, never too low. For example there was an,
either George Vth, or George VIth, Ceylon set on which he had a
price that might have been fair were the less common perforation
varieties included, but it only took me a few minutes to figure
that out.
As I casually mentioned that situation, in a tone that implied
that it could have been an honest mistake, he said, "What do you
do, Charlie, read the Scott fineprint notes at night ?"
"No George, but I do keep my old Minkus catalog on a small shelf
in the bathroom as reading the notes relaxes me."

By then I was well aware of his proclivity to trim the edges of
probity.

"De mortuis nihil nisi bonum"
But is has been almost fifty years now and he closed
his store as well as his albums about that long ago.
So why did I return so often, ?
First off, his was the only shop, not just in
Centereach, but in the surrounding towns, as well. My
repair shop was a short fifteen minutes drive.
I enjoyed talking stamps with him, and sometimes with
other collectors who stumbled into the shop, even if
I had begun to realise that he was of questionable
character.
Also his shop almost always had a pot of hot coffee brewed,
and not instant coffee, old fashioned percolator Java.

Finally on Saturday mornings there were always folks
who would bring in some old album they had acquired through
inheritance or was a remainder from years past.
George would glance through the pages pand often made an
offer. He might explain in varying detail what he liked
or did not think added any value to the collection.
Sometimes he would up his offer, which I had come to learn
was never very much.
I am sure any of us has seen that scene as someone who had
entered the Stamp Store with plans to reserve the Queen's
Suite on the RMS QE II for a round the world vacation,
slowly become deflated and occasionally teary eyed. If it
became obvious that there was no deal in the offing, George
would glance at me and nod, usually then turning and becoming
busy with another possible customer or, to just freshen the
coffee cups.
If I could, I might try to start a conversation with
the disappointed customer and if possible get a look through
the collection. Most, as you might suspect were quite
worthless childlike accumulations of the very CTOs from
Mystic or Kenmore mail order approval stamp selections we
had been discussing, but some had enough for me, so,after
explaining that George, and dealer's in general, had to sell
at a profit from their cost, enough to contribute to the
covering of the heat/AC,, lights, rent, insurance and even
that cup of coffee we would likely be sipping, as well as
feed their children.
George's problem was a lack of funds on hand, he seldom had
enough money around to splurge on anything too speculative.
If he did see something really worthwhile he might call a
dealer friend and try to split things up. But it also seemed
he owed some well-heeled dealers for past arrangements.

On the other hand,I often had Friday's receipts in my pocket
to be dropped off at the bank's night deposit box later that
afternoon. If there had been something he really felt he
could sell quickly at a good profit, we'd work it out with him
offering me a store credit.
If possible, I would just about double what I usually thought
was George's preposterously low offer.
I realized the depths of his problem when he brought his old
hoopty station wagon to my shop for what few repairs he
desperately needed, asking for the bill to spread payments over a few weeks. He was one of the few people I allowed
that service because I'd get to his shop and take a store credit
which I'd quickly convert to some decent stock for my collections.
I never wanted to let him get too deeply in debt to me that way.

I guess I have again digressed but once I start a story it is
hard for me to not add a few details as memories, like the little Swans
tip tapping across a ballet stage, begin dancing their way to consciousness.

PS: The scan abovec was made by jlev a year ago.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Bobstamp
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09 Nov 2019
08:29:36pm
re: CTO stamps

Brechinite said,

"To be honest he was a bit of a bore on the subject."



Several years ago, my wife and I attended a play. We sat next to a middle-age couple with whom we exchanged the common "politenesses" that people exchange in such situations. Somehow it was revealed that the other man and I had something in common — we are both philatelists. My interests weren't his interests — I collect pretty much everything related to four different aviation disasters, four different wars, commercial aviation history, astronomy, chickens, etc. blah blah. He collects perkins. Perfins! Oh my...

We had arrived early, and for the next 15 minutes or so my wife and I learned a great deal about perfins, more than either of us wanted to know and nothing that we really needed to know. My wife got the best opportunity to learn, however, because she was sitting between me and the other man. But I don't think she could pass even a rudimentary test about perfins. The man's wife pretty much ignored the conversation, or what was actually a lecture. I think she'd heard it before.... Me? I'm sure that perfins are interesting. I once thought about collecting them. I didn't.

Bob
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musicman
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APS #213005

10 Nov 2019
09:48:04am
re: CTO stamps

Collect WHAT you want;

collect HOW you want.


And don't let anyone make up your mind FOR you about how, what and why you
collect the way you do.

If you ENJOY the how, what and why of your collection - you are
doing it RIGHT!


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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

10 Nov 2019
02:48:47pm
re: CTO stamps

" .... If you ENJOY the how, what and why of your collection - you are
doing it RIGHT! ...."


I'd add that if you enjoy the sensation when you open
an album to a page you've not done so in some time
and you are immediately assailed by the color and
smells of the day you acquired the stamps, you can
imagine the shop or the day you opened the envelope
that brought them to you, that is a signal that
you have been doing it right, and possibly you that
have had a good life.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

 

Author/Postings

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Nov 2019
01:53:03pm

Being a collector of Russia and Poland up to 1985 I have to deal with a lot of CTOs. If I'm missing one or two from a series of CTO stamps and see the series mint on a buying site for a reasonable price I will replace them. I have always assumed that the value of these stamps is about half the used price, so 10 cents becomes 5 cents. Value really doesn't matter but am I in the right ball park? In most cases I assume the value of the CTO stamp is less than the value of the mount so I usually just use a hinge. I have never seen the following "CTO OG" so I assume the hinge doesn't affect whatever value is there. Does any one out there waste good mounting on CTO stamps? I treat them as album fillers for the newer stamps and spend most of my money on the older part of the collections. Who started this fad of issuing CTO stamps and about when?

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
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rjan

08 Nov 2019
02:03:25pm

re: CTO stamps

Most of eastern Europe and Russia have years of CTO stamp sets. I found these were more a danger of sticking and ruining pages so I soak out the gum and hinge the stamps in whenever possible.

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michael78651

08 Nov 2019
02:29:53pm

re: CTO stamps

All of my stamps are in mounts, regardless of the value. You are correct that for a good number of stamps, the mount costs more than the stamp!

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okstamps

08 Nov 2019
03:41:31pm

re: CTO stamps

A number of Western European countries are presently selling sets of CTO stamps as used, with the selling price being the same as for a mint newly issued stamp (face value). A number of European collectors are building collections of these things and describing them as used. I have come across collections, sets and individual stamps in such condition and inadvertently purchased them assuming they were postally used. Germany and Switzerland are two countries where I am sure that I have such issues on hand. So European CTO issues have not ceased to exist with the demise of the communist regimes in Central and Eastern Europe.

Many other countries in the Middle East and Africa also issued CTO examples of their stamps. CTO examples from these countries are generally easy to find whereas postally used examples are almost impossible to locate.

As mentioned by another poster above, the gum on these stamps is useless and if hinged I usually soak off both any hinge remainders and the gum before posting them for sale.

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michael78651

08 Nov 2019
04:11:59pm

re: CTO stamps

Collecting CTO stamps is also popular in Australia.

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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
08 Nov 2019
05:36:52pm

re: CTO stamps

I could be convinced more if "CTO" meant Cheap To Own.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Nov 2019
07:53:39pm

re: CTO stamps

Just one comment about one of the comments. If you soak the glue off a CTO it could be confused with a used stamp. I know some people assume any stamp with a cancellation on about a quarter of the stamp is a CTO, but it could also be a lightly cancelled used stamp. I would rather leave the glue on the stamp to eliminate confusion when/if the stamp is sold. I see a lot of stamps for sale on various sites called used that sure look as if they are cancelled to order.

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
michael78651

08 Nov 2019
09:17:08pm

re: CTO stamps

CTO cancels are usually distinct from postal cancels.

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StampCollector

08 Nov 2019
10:32:25pm

Approvals

re: CTO stamps

...and the cancel is almost identical on every stamp on the set if a set is involved. I don't know the origens of CTO but when I started collecting stamps back in 1959 there were already around, hated it then and still hating them today.

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colnect.com/en/colle ...
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okstamps

08 Nov 2019
11:27:57pm

re: CTO stamps

CTO cancels are usually very distinctive and easy to differentiate from cancels on stamps that have passed through the mail stream. When I make my decision on whether to soak off the gum and residual hinge(s), I will first look at the cancel and see whether it is of the distinctive CTO cancel type. They are often printed on the stamp just as if the stamp went through another run through a printing press. Or the cancel is very sharply printed, perfectly centered onto the corner of stamp, with none of the usual messiness and partial printing of an actual postal cancel. And I describe all such stamps in my auctions as CTO issues that have had the gum and hinge remainder(s) removed. If the gum is pristine on the back of the CTO issue, I will usually leave it alone but still describe the stamp as being CTO with full Mint-Never-Hinged gum on the back.

That is how I handle CTO issues in my auctions. Others are free to deal with them as they wish with no complaints from me.

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okstamps

08 Nov 2019
11:54:12pm

re: CTO stamps

I believe certain countries started to create CTO issues in order to sell more stamps to collectors, especially countries that issued numerous stamps well beyond that necessary to meet their postal needs. Most typical world-wide collectors could afford the much cheaper CTO issues compared to much higher priced mint issues. Since many of these issues saw little usage on mail, authentic used stamps would be difficult to obtain. And it gave the government in these countries another revenue stream that otherwise would not exist if only mint stamps were sold.

When I first started collecting many decades ago, CTO issues were plentiful in the packets of stamps that I received through the mail from stamp dealers (approvals). I would pick out the stamps I wanted, pay a few cents for each stamp I retained, and mailed the rest back to the stamp dealer along with my payment. I would keep the CTO issues if I didn't have another copy of that stamp already in my collection and thought nothing of it. It wasn't until I was "educated" by the American stamp hobby through Linn's Stamp News and other publications that CTO issues were evil that I started looking disdainfully upon them.

I may be wrong, but my impression is that CTO issues being "bad" is a North American thing and not so much a world-wide thing. As I mentioned previously, several Western European countries are actively creating them today for the philatelic market. And I still remember the "Black Blot" program that Scott started that for some time refused to list issues from many countries because they thought the stamps were issued only to rob collectors of their money. Many of these issues are still not listed in Scott because of that policy from decades ago. That upset me because some catalog editor was deciding what was appropriate for me to collect rather than just listing all the stamps a country issued that were made available for postal use. Michel and other stamp catalog companies did not make this decision and as a result I now have their catalogs to fill in the holes that Scott created artificially in their own catalogs.

That is the one thing that has always upset me about the American philatelic market - the burning desire from the self-defined experts to determine what is appropriate for another person to collect. I stay away from local stamp clubs and any type of philatelic get together just for this reason. It may be part of the reason the hobby appears to be dying; the "experts" drive away the casual collectors.

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jmh67

09 Nov 2019
11:09:14am

re: CTO stamps

I agree with okstamps on the topic of why CTOs were issued at all. I'd like to add that I do not believe they are evil per se. They are just another grade of stamps in addition to mint, unused, and postally used, and as long as the collectors know what they have got, all is well. Only if someone tries to pass CTOs off as postally used stamps, things turn fishy, but it may not be as clear-cut a distinction as it initially seems. My impression is that there is a whole gamut of cancellation types.

As far as I am concerned, I prefer postally used stamps, but will accept CTOs as placeholders, and if I find a replacement, perhaps a topical collector will be happy receiving my CTO stamp.

As for the "black spot", I cannot comment on American catalogs, never having seen one, but I remember having found a similar mark (actually, it was a black lozenge) in a 1957 Michel catalog. It was used for any sort of "speculative issues", among them those values which were printed in low numbers and whose sale was subject to restrictions. More roundabout ways of marking such issues (but not restricted to these) were prices in slanted type (meaning that the valuation is difficult), or price entries of the form "-.-" which meant that the stamps existed, but no valuation was currently possible.

Anyway, I don't think that there are many countries left who have not joined the club and do not issue way more stamps than necessary. It has also become rather common to sell certain stamps only by mail order or at selected outlets. Hence we would have catalogs full of "black marks" nowadays, and this might be the reason why we do not see these marks any more. Perhaps we do not need them at all. Let everyone collect what they like, nobody forces us to have a "complete" collection, whatever this means.

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ikeyPikey

09 Nov 2019
12:45:30pm

re: CTO stamps

'
CTOs began simply enough: many collectors, back in the day, wanted one mint & one used.

The CTO (a/k/a courtesy cancel) meant that you could subscribe to both, and the new issue dealer could sell you both, and you did not have to maintain ever-growing want lists for used copies of stamps you might never see.

"... They are often printed on the stamp just as if the stamp went through another run through a printing press ..."



So close!

They often WERE printed on the stamp by another run through a printing press, or by adding a plate to a multi-plate press.

Why? Hand-cancelling gave an inconsistent result ... talk about printer's waste!

"... Scott started that for some time refused to list issues from many countries because they thought the stamps were issued only to rob collectors of their money ..."



During 1971-3, Ajman alone "issued" just shy of THREE THOUSAND stamps (Colnect's count).

Q/ Why should every Scott Standard Postage Stamp Catalogue issued in the last forty-odd years carry hundreds of pages that no collector could ever use?

Q/ Why should every Scott International Album issued in the last forty-odd years carry hundreds of pages that no collector could ever fill?

Legions of collectors did not want to pay for all those useless pages, let alone have to look at them, like, forever.

Legions of dealers did not want to pay for, and carry all those useless pages in stock.

Scott did not want to pay the cost of adding all that ballast to their products, and had a responsibility to listen to their customers.

The Ajmani tail was wagging the hobby dog ... as were many others.

Now, write Scott a nice note, and thank them!

"... Many of these issues are still not listed in Scott because of that policy from decades ago ..."



Hurray!

"... That upset me because some catalog editor was deciding what was appropriate for me to collect rather than just listing all the stamps a country issued that were made available for postal use ..."



Google the word "editor".

They were "deciding what was appropriate" to include in their catalog. There are zillions of things not in their catalog about which they have no opinion, but which you are free to philatelically collect: postal history (vs FDCs), stamp designer autographs, train schedules, passenger ship menus ...

"... That is the one thing that has always upset me about the American philatelic market - the burning desire from the self-defined experts to determine what is appropriate for another person to collect ..."



I've met exactly one ethnic German stamp collector; my guess is that you've met none.

"... I stay away from local stamp clubs and any type of philatelic get together just for this reason ... the "experts" drive away the casual collectors ..."



I cannot think of a human activity in which people do not sort themselves out by knowledge, experience, wealth, connections, style ... can you?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey (who pretty much never doubts whether a perfectly corner-canceled stamp is CTO/not)
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"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Brechinite

09 Nov 2019
02:27:42pm

re: CTO stamps

Let me tell you a story.

I joined a Philatelic Society back in the 1980's. The Presidents Display was GB Penny Blacks and GB Twopenny Blues (not your common or garden perforated ones, the real McCoy) off piece and on piece, in strips of three and blocks of 4, MNH as well. To be honest he was a bit of a bore on the subject. The main point is that he was part of a clique that could see no further than GB Line Engraved, they looked down on everyone else and what they collected.

There was one member who they constantly ignored, because he only collected Paintings on Stamps especially those cheap CTO's from Hungary, Mongolia and the likes.

What the clique missed was that this member knew all about the painting on every stamp he owned. Who painted it, the artists life story, when it was painted, who owned the painting, which gallery/museum you could view it in. The man had a bewildering knowledge of his subject and could illustrate it passionately and amusingly when you talked to him.

He/we got more enjoyment out of his cheap CTO's than from the members of the GB Line Engraved clique put together.



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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
09 Nov 2019
07:35:24pm

re: CTO stamps

".... I don't know the origins of CTO but
when I started collecting stamps back in
1959 there were already around, hated it
then and still hating them today ...."


Image Not Found

About a year go we discussed these Dutch remainders
that were cancelled and sold to whomever wanted a set
on he last day of usage. They were to raise funds for
the care, well being, and housing of Tuberculosis
patients, but had a limited validity time.

In the 1970s I managed to find and save a set with actual
postal cancels for my collection and several times have
pointed out to otherwise (supposedly) honest dealers that
they were offering a set of remainders (CTOs, listed at
$2.00 - 3.00 according to Mother Scott. )
at the genuine
postally cancelled "SCV $30.00 or so" value.

One dealer at that time had a shop in Centereach, L.I., N.Y.,
whom I visited just about every Saturday morning had such a
($35) set in his counter display pages. He made at least a
show of puzzlement, and opened his Scott Catalog, to verify
what I had said.
" Oh, i did not see that minor note," as he removed it from
the black Vario stock page.
Fast forward a few months and one Saturday I noticed what I
assumed was the same set back in his display page.
"Hey, George, that set of Dutch remainders must have slipped
into the counter book."

("Oh golly, Gee whiz, Shucks, Smokin' Rockets Commander, or
some other somewhat innocuous exclamation), I meant to
reprice them,"
so he then changed the little slips of paper
that we've all seen next to such stamp sets.
At least one more time I pointed to a Dutch TB set over the
four or five years I frequented his shop.
Over time, I found several sets of stamps that were grossly over
priced, always too high, never too low. For example there was an,
either George Vth, or George VIth, Ceylon set on which he had a
price that might have been fair were the less common perforation
varieties included, but it only took me a few minutes to figure
that out.
As I casually mentioned that situation, in a tone that implied
that it could have been an honest mistake, he said, "What do you
do, Charlie, read the Scott fineprint notes at night ?"
"No George, but I do keep my old Minkus catalog on a small shelf
in the bathroom as reading the notes relaxes me."

By then I was well aware of his proclivity to trim the edges of
probity.

"De mortuis nihil nisi bonum"
But is has been almost fifty years now and he closed
his store as well as his albums about that long ago.
So why did I return so often, ?
First off, his was the only shop, not just in
Centereach, but in the surrounding towns, as well. My
repair shop was a short fifteen minutes drive.
I enjoyed talking stamps with him, and sometimes with
other collectors who stumbled into the shop, even if
I had begun to realise that he was of questionable
character.
Also his shop almost always had a pot of hot coffee brewed,
and not instant coffee, old fashioned percolator Java.

Finally on Saturday mornings there were always folks
who would bring in some old album they had acquired through
inheritance or was a remainder from years past.
George would glance through the pages pand often made an
offer. He might explain in varying detail what he liked
or did not think added any value to the collection.
Sometimes he would up his offer, which I had come to learn
was never very much.
I am sure any of us has seen that scene as someone who had
entered the Stamp Store with plans to reserve the Queen's
Suite on the RMS QE II for a round the world vacation,
slowly become deflated and occasionally teary eyed. If it
became obvious that there was no deal in the offing, George
would glance at me and nod, usually then turning and becoming
busy with another possible customer or, to just freshen the
coffee cups.
If I could, I might try to start a conversation with
the disappointed customer and if possible get a look through
the collection. Most, as you might suspect were quite
worthless childlike accumulations of the very CTOs from
Mystic or Kenmore mail order approval stamp selections we
had been discussing, but some had enough for me, so,after
explaining that George, and dealer's in general, had to sell
at a profit from their cost, enough to contribute to the
covering of the heat/AC,, lights, rent, insurance and even
that cup of coffee we would likely be sipping, as well as
feed their children.
George's problem was a lack of funds on hand, he seldom had
enough money around to splurge on anything too speculative.
If he did see something really worthwhile he might call a
dealer friend and try to split things up. But it also seemed
he owed some well-heeled dealers for past arrangements.

On the other hand,I often had Friday's receipts in my pocket
to be dropped off at the bank's night deposit box later that
afternoon. If there had been something he really felt he
could sell quickly at a good profit, we'd work it out with him
offering me a store credit.
If possible, I would just about double what I usually thought
was George's preposterously low offer.
I realized the depths of his problem when he brought his old
hoopty station wagon to my shop for what few repairs he
desperately needed, asking for the bill to spread payments over a few weeks. He was one of the few people I allowed
that service because I'd get to his shop and take a store credit
which I'd quickly convert to some decent stock for my collections.
I never wanted to let him get too deeply in debt to me that way.

I guess I have again digressed but once I start a story it is
hard for me to not add a few details as memories, like the little Swans
tip tapping across a ballet stage, begin dancing their way to consciousness.

PS: The scan abovec was made by jlev a year ago.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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Bobstamp

09 Nov 2019
08:29:36pm

re: CTO stamps

Brechinite said,

"To be honest he was a bit of a bore on the subject."



Several years ago, my wife and I attended a play. We sat next to a middle-age couple with whom we exchanged the common "politenesses" that people exchange in such situations. Somehow it was revealed that the other man and I had something in common — we are both philatelists. My interests weren't his interests — I collect pretty much everything related to four different aviation disasters, four different wars, commercial aviation history, astronomy, chickens, etc. blah blah. He collects perkins. Perfins! Oh my...

We had arrived early, and for the next 15 minutes or so my wife and I learned a great deal about perfins, more than either of us wanted to know and nothing that we really needed to know. My wife got the best opportunity to learn, however, because she was sitting between me and the other man. But I don't think she could pass even a rudimentary test about perfins. The man's wife pretty much ignored the conversation, or what was actually a lecture. I think she'd heard it before.... Me? I'm sure that perfins are interesting. I once thought about collecting them. I didn't.

Bob
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musicman

APS #213005
10 Nov 2019
09:48:04am

re: CTO stamps

Collect WHAT you want;

collect HOW you want.


And don't let anyone make up your mind FOR you about how, what and why you
collect the way you do.

If you ENJOY the how, what and why of your collection - you are
doing it RIGHT!


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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Nov 2019
02:48:47pm

re: CTO stamps

" .... If you ENJOY the how, what and why of your collection - you are
doing it RIGHT! ...."


I'd add that if you enjoy the sensation when you open
an album to a page you've not done so in some time
and you are immediately assailed by the color and
smells of the day you acquired the stamps, you can
imagine the shop or the day you opened the envelope
that brought them to you, that is a signal that
you have been doing it right, and possibly you that
have had a good life.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

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