Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Whilst sorting through some penny roos I noticed this pair.
Now the one on the right has the break on the frame near the one penny, the other stamp does not.
So hopefully this is the elusive Die one & Die Two Pair.(refer to the enlargements, The top one is the stamp on the left, the other the right hand side.)
Regards
Horamakhet
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A pair of Die2 most likely from plates E or F.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Langtounlad
I respect you opinion, but die II does not have the break above the "One Penny Inscription,and Die I does
So therefore as one of them does, and the other doesn't, it would make sense that one of them has to be a die I
One of them does have the break, further up, near the actual penny symbol, which according to my copy or ACSC latest colour edition could not possibly make them a pair of Die II, due to one having the break on the left hand side near the One Penny Inscription
If you check page 2/8 of the current colour edition of the the current ACSC Kangaroo colour edition, it gives very good illustrations of Die I, Die II and Die IIA
So if you put that information together, it would be logical, that one is definitely a DIe I and the other is probably a Die II
If you have photos and evidence to support that DIe II has the same frame break in the same position as Die I, I would love a copy for future reference.
I know that this is a very difficult area, but the more information I amass, the more important it is when building a collection of Roos, and will save me the trouble of sending them out to be assessed for a certificate.
Horamakhet
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Horamakhet
The break is too high for a die 1. See scan below.
Tasnaki
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Hi Tasnaki
Thanks for that, but still can't be a Die II as the break on the Die Ii is much higher.
I am not as yet convinced.
I need more convincing
Regards
Horamakhet
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Horamakhet
Many of the 1d's have frame breaks in a number of places on all frames right around the stamp for all dies. To be die 1, 2a or 2b the breaks need to be in the exact location shown on the SG guide.
Other breaks may (or may not) help to establish the plate position.
Your example is NOT die 1.
Tasnaki.
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As tasnaki has said there is no Die 1 break on either stamp.
And before you quote ACSC at people who have considerable experience with the Roos you would do well to upgrade your expert knowledge. ACSC does not hold expert information about these stamps - it is very basic.
I identified these stamps and their possible plates from my considerable experience. I was able to pronounce the possible plates because of standard markings which appear on this class of 1d Roo but not necessarily on others.
As I said there is no Die1 break on either stamp therefore they must be either Die2 or 2A. Neither class has a constant break anywhere near the position of the Die1 break. Examine them properly and you will see a break in the first shading line above N of ONE at a point 4mm from left outer frame. Then examine the shade line below N of ONE and you will find a break 3mm from left frame.These markings do not appear in any Die1 Roo and appear only on Die2 Plates E/F and Die 2a Plates. Neither of your stamps can be Die2A as the post mark is dated March 1913 which is about one year before the Die2A 1d Roos were first printed.
These breaks are recorded in "The Kangaroo Issues of Australian Stamps " by Dormer Legge and will also be noted in any expert handbooks. They do not appear in ACSC as it is not an expert handbook. It is a catalogue.
You should also note that there are many breaks on the margins of Roos mainly caused by printing issues. I never use margin breaks as primary identifiers for this reason.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Tasnaki & Langtounlad
As said I respect all opinions, but Langtounlad, I think your last reply is a bit hostile in my opinion. No where did I say that you don't have expertise in any area, I said " I am not as yet convinced" "I need more convincing"
Nothing is finite in Philatiley, and I would say that Geoff Kellow has much expertise in the subject, even though he is only listed as the editor of the ACSC.
However, I do respect yours and Tasnaki opinions, but things can and do change in Philately. So what was fact yesterday can become questionable the next day
Let me refresh everyones' memories re a KGV stamp. One was found in a schoolboy collection with a sideways watermark, and was put on Ebay for 99 pence. It did not sell, because people thought it was a fake. After expert examination it was proclaimed genuine and sold for many tens of thousands of dollars, even though it was damaged.
Then the another copy turned up ten years later in much better condition and was pronounced genuine, and the stamp featured in an article in the Australian Stamp Monthly. The finder of the second copy was even referred to in an unsavoury manner in another place on the internet, but lucky he does not get offended.
Then a new variety of SG 212 turned up, and I actually posted it on this forum, No less an authority than Hugh Geofferies of Stanley Gibbons said that he had never seen another copy of this new error and he will research it, so until another turns up it is a one only, but it will not surprise me when others are located.
everyone in the book world thought that all copies of the first folio of Shakespeares plays were accounted for, but a few years ago another turned up in Scotland.
The world thought that there were no more copies of the Gutenburg Bible, but in one year two new ones were found.
A few years ago a lost painting by Leonardo Da Vinci turned up and sold for half a billion dollars.
An unknown painting by a master was found in a roof cavity in France, and was proclaimed genuine, it sold prior to auction for 157 million dollars.
I always keep an open mind on all subjects and this has let me find some interesting varieties and errors and rarities in the both the world of Philately and Rare Books.
I appreciate everyone's opinion, and just because I quote a book, does not mean I agree with it, and any opinion I give is not meant to offend anyone, So I reiterate I still need convincing because nothing is finite in the world of Philately or collecting of books or objects vertu or object d'art
Regards
Horamakhet
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Sorry, but still not a Die 1.
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Hi Dave
As I said Nothing is finite, and that is my last word on this variety
Regards
Horamakhet
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This is an interesting thread. For those of us uneducated people, could you guys please post an example of a die 1, a die 2a and a die 2b?
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What has King George V got to do with it?
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auldstampguy
The primary difference is in breaks in the inner frame as shown below. There are other minor flaws that help but the breaks should be sufficient.
The 1d was only printed with dies 1, 2 and 2a, the 2b is from a 9d. Die 2 has no breaks in these positions.
Hope this helps
Tasnaki
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Tasnaki,
Thanks for the explanation.
Regards ... Tim.
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Hi to all
Whilst sorting through some penny roos I noticed this pair.
Now the one on the right has the break on the frame near the one penny, the other stamp does not.
So hopefully this is the elusive Die one & Die Two Pair.(refer to the enlargements, The top one is the stamp on the left, the other the right hand side.)
Regards
Horamakhet
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07:27:41pm
re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
A pair of Die2 most likely from plates E or F.
Regards
Frank
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Hi Langtounlad
I respect you opinion, but die II does not have the break above the "One Penny Inscription,and Die I does
So therefore as one of them does, and the other doesn't, it would make sense that one of them has to be a die I
One of them does have the break, further up, near the actual penny symbol, which according to my copy or ACSC latest colour edition could not possibly make them a pair of Die II, due to one having the break on the left hand side near the One Penny Inscription
If you check page 2/8 of the current colour edition of the the current ACSC Kangaroo colour edition, it gives very good illustrations of Die I, Die II and Die IIA
So if you put that information together, it would be logical, that one is definitely a DIe I and the other is probably a Die II
If you have photos and evidence to support that DIe II has the same frame break in the same position as Die I, I would love a copy for future reference.
I know that this is a very difficult area, but the more information I amass, the more important it is when building a collection of Roos, and will save me the trouble of sending them out to be assessed for a certificate.
Horamakhet
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Horamakhet
The break is too high for a die 1. See scan below.
Tasnaki
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Hi Tasnaki
Thanks for that, but still can't be a Die II as the break on the Die Ii is much higher.
I am not as yet convinced.
I need more convincing
Regards
Horamakhet
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Horamakhet
Many of the 1d's have frame breaks in a number of places on all frames right around the stamp for all dies. To be die 1, 2a or 2b the breaks need to be in the exact location shown on the SG guide.
Other breaks may (or may not) help to establish the plate position.
Your example is NOT die 1.
Tasnaki.
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01:16:09am
re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
As tasnaki has said there is no Die 1 break on either stamp.
And before you quote ACSC at people who have considerable experience with the Roos you would do well to upgrade your expert knowledge. ACSC does not hold expert information about these stamps - it is very basic.
I identified these stamps and their possible plates from my considerable experience. I was able to pronounce the possible plates because of standard markings which appear on this class of 1d Roo but not necessarily on others.
As I said there is no Die1 break on either stamp therefore they must be either Die2 or 2A. Neither class has a constant break anywhere near the position of the Die1 break. Examine them properly and you will see a break in the first shading line above N of ONE at a point 4mm from left outer frame. Then examine the shade line below N of ONE and you will find a break 3mm from left frame.These markings do not appear in any Die1 Roo and appear only on Die2 Plates E/F and Die 2a Plates. Neither of your stamps can be Die2A as the post mark is dated March 1913 which is about one year before the Die2A 1d Roos were first printed.
These breaks are recorded in "The Kangaroo Issues of Australian Stamps " by Dormer Legge and will also be noted in any expert handbooks. They do not appear in ACSC as it is not an expert handbook. It is a catalogue.
You should also note that there are many breaks on the margins of Roos mainly caused by printing issues. I never use margin breaks as primary identifiers for this reason.
Regards
Frank
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Hi Tasnaki & Langtounlad
As said I respect all opinions, but Langtounlad, I think your last reply is a bit hostile in my opinion. No where did I say that you don't have expertise in any area, I said " I am not as yet convinced" "I need more convincing"
Nothing is finite in Philatiley, and I would say that Geoff Kellow has much expertise in the subject, even though he is only listed as the editor of the ACSC.
However, I do respect yours and Tasnaki opinions, but things can and do change in Philately. So what was fact yesterday can become questionable the next day
Let me refresh everyones' memories re a KGV stamp. One was found in a schoolboy collection with a sideways watermark, and was put on Ebay for 99 pence. It did not sell, because people thought it was a fake. After expert examination it was proclaimed genuine and sold for many tens of thousands of dollars, even though it was damaged.
Then the another copy turned up ten years later in much better condition and was pronounced genuine, and the stamp featured in an article in the Australian Stamp Monthly. The finder of the second copy was even referred to in an unsavoury manner in another place on the internet, but lucky he does not get offended.
Then a new variety of SG 212 turned up, and I actually posted it on this forum, No less an authority than Hugh Geofferies of Stanley Gibbons said that he had never seen another copy of this new error and he will research it, so until another turns up it is a one only, but it will not surprise me when others are located.
everyone in the book world thought that all copies of the first folio of Shakespeares plays were accounted for, but a few years ago another turned up in Scotland.
The world thought that there were no more copies of the Gutenburg Bible, but in one year two new ones were found.
A few years ago a lost painting by Leonardo Da Vinci turned up and sold for half a billion dollars.
An unknown painting by a master was found in a roof cavity in France, and was proclaimed genuine, it sold prior to auction for 157 million dollars.
I always keep an open mind on all subjects and this has let me find some interesting varieties and errors and rarities in the both the world of Philately and Rare Books.
I appreciate everyone's opinion, and just because I quote a book, does not mean I agree with it, and any opinion I give is not meant to offend anyone, So I reiterate I still need convincing because nothing is finite in the world of Philately or collecting of books or objects vertu or object d'art
Regards
Horamakhet
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Sorry, but still not a Die 1.
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Hi Dave
As I said Nothing is finite, and that is my last word on this variety
Regards
Horamakhet
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
This is an interesting thread. For those of us uneducated people, could you guys please post an example of a die 1, a die 2a and a die 2b?
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09:53:43am
re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
What has King George V got to do with it?
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
auldstampguy
The primary difference is in breaks in the inner frame as shown below. There are other minor flaws that help but the breaks should be sufficient.
The 1d was only printed with dies 1, 2 and 2a, the 2b is from a 9d. Die 2 has no breaks in these positions.
Hope this helps
Tasnaki
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re: KING GEORGE V PENNY DIE ONE & DIE TWO
Tasnaki,
Thanks for the explanation.
Regards ... Tim.
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