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Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Sorting a stamp mixture and noticed I have this stamp in 2 sizes. I had a 210 in my album, but found one which is taller and a bit wider (I called it 210a to differentiate it). Is this a listed difference in another catalog? I only have Scott standard world catalog.
Made composite images to show the difference:
Just curious. Don't know why I noticed it.
Thanks. Brian
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This is very interesting. I will be checking my dupe stock. Thanks.
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That's very interesting Brian. There is no mention of a size change in my 1985 SG South-East Asia catalog or in the locally printed 1998 Sakserm and the 2014 Hobby catalogues. The latter is the most recent catalogue published in Thailand.
We know it was recess printed by Waterlow & Sons and of England and Hobby says 14,500,000 were printed starting in 1928. There must have been quite a few in stock as it was overprinted as a provisional issue in 1955. I will certainly look through my stock.
My first thoughts are paper shrinkage as Thailand suffers from the two ills of stamp care, high humidity and high temperature. Maybe Waterlow did make new plates and if the size change was repeatable in other stamps it would point that way. The locally printed 1943 Victory Monument stamps seem to have two sizes which are uncatalogued.
Of course it could be a postal fake, but the quality looks quite good. This happened with the 1939 National Day 10 satang stamp, but I haven't heard of it on any other issue.
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I have 2 or 3 of each size. Would it be something like rotary vs flat plate printing?
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I think I've already exceeded my knowledge of printing technology;-) Could it be Waterlow changed the paper which shrunk slightly. I will check what I have. With the 1943 stamp someone was offering the size change as a rarity, but when I looked at mine about half were of each size.
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I started to look tonight but it's getting late and I don't trust my eyes. At first look there seems to be quite a bit of variation. I did see something similar to you in that the ones that are shorter are the ones that are wider. Below is a scan of most of my stock of this stamp. The third washed out stamp on the top row is a bit of an outlier I think.
In the earlier comment where I said there was something similar with a locally printed 1943 stamp I should have said showing the Bangkhem monument, not the Victory monument which is a different 1943 stamp altogether;-)
I wonder if it something to do with what direction the paper is laid in the printing press.
I will ask some of the TPS (Thailand Philatelic Society) members out of the UK if they have any information on this.
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This has exhausted my knowledge of printing. I know with US stamps they talk of flat plate vs rotary printing causing the rotary printed to be longer in 1 direction (if I remember correctly), but that's about it.
Brian
Here's a scan of the 2 that started this, together in 1 scan.
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Brian I received an email from Rory Morrisey, the secretary of the TPS (Thailand Philatelic Society) in answer to the query on the size difference of the King Prajadhipok definitives. It seems that the direction of the paper fibres during the printing process are the most likely cause. The experiment he conducted certainly points that way, but someone with a powerful microscope could prove the point. Below I'm quoting Rory:
"Interesting question about the size of the Rama VII definitives. As it happens I wrote an article recently on this issue and it's about to be printed in The Thai Times and sent to you. Rather than keep you in suspense, I'll spill the beans here."
"I believe that the "two sizes" basically represent the result of some sheets of paper going into the printing press with the weave vertical and some horizontal. There is a range of different measurements as the amount of shrinkage depends not only on the direction of the weave but also how wet the paper was when printed. Intaglio (or recess) printing requires that the paper is wet as it has to be supple to be squeezed into the engraved grooves in the printing plate under great pressure and pick up the ink."
"The first issue of 1883, particularly the 1 Att, shows the same range of sizes for the same reason."
"An alternative reason might be that there were two working dies of the stamps and they differed in size for some reason, but that would have been expensive and unnecessary."
"I did an experiment (described in my article) where I took two different size used stamps and soaked them in water for half an hour, measuring before and after soaking. After soaking they were the same size, or within a whisker."
Back to me - I must give the TPS a plug here. You can find them at
http://www.thailandphilsoc.org.uk/index.html
Annual subscription for members outside the UK is £16 or the dollar equivalent and they accept PayPal. For anyone collecting Siam/Thailand it has a wealth of information.
Christmas greetings to all, Danny
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Thanks Danny for that info. That would seem to explain it. I guess I have heard of "wet" printing but had no idea the results could be so different just by turning the paper.
Great information here. Thanks again.
Brian
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In hindsight I suspect if the stamps can be taller and thinner or shorter and wider, it points to directional paper shrinkage. I will now check if that is the case with the Thai 1943 Bangkhen Monument issue.
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Thailand Scott #210
Sorting a stamp mixture and noticed I have this stamp in 2 sizes. I had a 210 in my album, but found one which is taller and a bit wider (I called it 210a to differentiate it). Is this a listed difference in another catalog? I only have Scott standard world catalog.
Made composite images to show the difference:
Just curious. Don't know why I noticed it.
Thanks. Brian
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re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
This is very interesting. I will be checking my dupe stock. Thanks.
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this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
That's very interesting Brian. There is no mention of a size change in my 1985 SG South-East Asia catalog or in the locally printed 1998 Sakserm and the 2014 Hobby catalogues. The latter is the most recent catalogue published in Thailand.
We know it was recess printed by Waterlow & Sons and of England and Hobby says 14,500,000 were printed starting in 1928. There must have been quite a few in stock as it was overprinted as a provisional issue in 1955. I will certainly look through my stock.
My first thoughts are paper shrinkage as Thailand suffers from the two ills of stamp care, high humidity and high temperature. Maybe Waterlow did make new plates and if the size change was repeatable in other stamps it would point that way. The locally printed 1943 Victory Monument stamps seem to have two sizes which are uncatalogued.
Of course it could be a postal fake, but the quality looks quite good. This happened with the 1939 National Day 10 satang stamp, but I haven't heard of it on any other issue.
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this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
I have 2 or 3 of each size. Would it be something like rotary vs flat plate printing?
Login to Like
this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
I think I've already exceeded my knowledge of printing technology;-) Could it be Waterlow changed the paper which shrunk slightly. I will check what I have. With the 1943 stamp someone was offering the size change as a rarity, but when I looked at mine about half were of each size.
Login to Like
this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
I started to look tonight but it's getting late and I don't trust my eyes. At first look there seems to be quite a bit of variation. I did see something similar to you in that the ones that are shorter are the ones that are wider. Below is a scan of most of my stock of this stamp. The third washed out stamp on the top row is a bit of an outlier I think.
In the earlier comment where I said there was something similar with a locally printed 1943 stamp I should have said showing the Bangkhem monument, not the Victory monument which is a different 1943 stamp altogether;-)
I wonder if it something to do with what direction the paper is laid in the printing press.
I will ask some of the TPS (Thailand Philatelic Society) members out of the UK if they have any information on this.
Login to Like
this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
This has exhausted my knowledge of printing. I know with US stamps they talk of flat plate vs rotary printing causing the rotary printed to be longer in 1 direction (if I remember correctly), but that's about it.
Brian
Here's a scan of the 2 that started this, together in 1 scan.
Login to Like
this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
Brian I received an email from Rory Morrisey, the secretary of the TPS (Thailand Philatelic Society) in answer to the query on the size difference of the King Prajadhipok definitives. It seems that the direction of the paper fibres during the printing process are the most likely cause. The experiment he conducted certainly points that way, but someone with a powerful microscope could prove the point. Below I'm quoting Rory:
"Interesting question about the size of the Rama VII definitives. As it happens I wrote an article recently on this issue and it's about to be printed in The Thai Times and sent to you. Rather than keep you in suspense, I'll spill the beans here."
"I believe that the "two sizes" basically represent the result of some sheets of paper going into the printing press with the weave vertical and some horizontal. There is a range of different measurements as the amount of shrinkage depends not only on the direction of the weave but also how wet the paper was when printed. Intaglio (or recess) printing requires that the paper is wet as it has to be supple to be squeezed into the engraved grooves in the printing plate under great pressure and pick up the ink."
"The first issue of 1883, particularly the 1 Att, shows the same range of sizes for the same reason."
"An alternative reason might be that there were two working dies of the stamps and they differed in size for some reason, but that would have been expensive and unnecessary."
"I did an experiment (described in my article) where I took two different size used stamps and soaked them in water for half an hour, measuring before and after soaking. After soaking they were the same size, or within a whisker."
Back to me - I must give the TPS a plug here. You can find them at
http://www.thailandphilsoc.org.uk/index.html
Annual subscription for members outside the UK is £16 or the dollar equivalent and they accept PayPal. For anyone collecting Siam/Thailand it has a wealth of information.
Christmas greetings to all, Danny
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re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
Thanks Danny for that info. That would seem to explain it. I guess I have heard of "wet" printing but had no idea the results could be so different just by turning the paper.
Great information here. Thanks again.
Brian
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this post
re: Thailand 1928 10s King Prajadhipok -Are there 2 sizes?
In hindsight I suspect if the stamps can be taller and thinner or shorter and wider, it points to directional paper shrinkage. I will now check if that is the case with the Thai 1943 Bangkhen Monument issue.
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