Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
12:01:19pm
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It is probably the best idea to allow a dealer/auctioneer that you trust to dispose of your collections when the time comes.
I hope that it is a long time coming.
Clear instructions must be left for your executors and your collections must be clearly marked what they are and where they are listed in your will to ensure your wishes are met.
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01:11:00pm
Thanks for the comments Ian, I hope the day is a long time coming as well. I am 69 and in fair health, but... My wife had never been sick a day in her life until getting cancer and then taking an agonizing four years to die. I know this is morbid but, especially in these weird times, we have to consider our own vulnerability and make plans. It's really not fair to your families to put everything on them! 
, be 
.
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it's grand that you already have dealers who not only know your stuff, but likely sold it to you.
our local club has been lotting and selling collections from locals who've passed or are making arrangements.
Some of the material has been top notch; some, meh.
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It is a must to choose the right person to sell your collection.
Let me tell you a story, are you sitting comfortably, then I'll begin:-
Once upon a time a stamp collector passed away and the executor (who knew nothing about stamps) of his will asked the local Auction House to sell the collection.
Now this Aution House was based in a small village of some 2500 souls, some thirty miles from the nearest urban conurbations.
The proprieter of the auction house diligently broke up the collection into auction lots.
There were Albums, Country collections, sets and individual stamps.
He advertised the auction in all the papers he normally used with interested parties to ask for an Auction Catalogue. When one received the catalogue items were priced at 50% of catalogue and above.
The day of the auction arrived and despite the advertising there were only 14 of us. It turned out that there were no phone bids, no postal bids and worst of all the executor had told the auctioneer no reserves. All items to sell on the day!(I learned this after the sale).
The 14 of us lived happily ever after.
For a while. I did feel a bit sad when I discoverd the circumstances of how the items appeared at auction.
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04:11:01pm
Ian, I would have felt a bit bad as well, but at least you would have given your part of the collection a good home - you probably sold some, but I'm sure some of it found a good home in your collections. It really is a shame the way some things are handled when a person dies. I've been an attender of antique auctions for many years and I really get depressed when wonderful family items are scattered to the wind. I was at an auction a couple years ago and bought a few items from my home town of Liverpool, Nova Scotia. One thing was a set of Civil War era cast iron hand cuffs from the local jail. No one had even bothered to write a note to supply provenance for them. I treasure them, but when I'm gone they will just be an old pair of hand cuffs - G.O.K. what they will be used for! By the way, they have their key!! 
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A couple of thoughts…
Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell.
Catalog publishers have abused the hobby for over a century by advocating totally misleading valuations. (Why we continue to support catalog publishers is beyond me.) They increase the value each year because they know that if they were to drop prices or reflect actual market values their catalog sales would decline. In defense of increasing catalog prices, the publishers do have to deal with inflation and its impact of values. The truth is that if you stop and analyze stamp values since about 1920 you will see that stamp valuation is flat. If you purchased a set of US Zeps in 1940, the value is exactly the same as today when you factor in inflation. Stamps are not a very good investment; if folks want a good investment they should buy vintage Dennison hinges which have seen an increase of over 4000% since the 1970s. (Yes, there are examples of some good stamp investments but I think that the overwhelming majority of stamp collections and stamps are not good investments.)
Some wonder why our hobby’s health is not what it could be; in my opinion the setting of unrealistic value expectations serves to damage the hobby in a significant way. Time after time, year after year, we see potential new hobbyists enter the hobby with the expectation that they can quit their day job and retire on a ‘stamp collection’ that is barely more than a kids starter album. How much time, effort and money has been spent on trying to explain to these new potential hobbyists the real intrinsic value of our hobby? How much time How much time, effort and money have been spent on combatting ‘treasure hunting’ attitudes in our hobby? I think this is largely because less experience folks see a catalog values and think, ‘oh wow, look at the great deal I got’.
And as this thread suggests, the result of these issues manifests itself when a lifelong effort is dispositioned. I like that Harvey mentions dispositioning his material back to the dealer that sold him much of it; this highlights that we a just temporary stewards of this material. It also illustrates how the same material recycles through the hobby over and over again. I would guess that 9 out of 10 ‘new finds’ are not new at all but rather simply forgotten or lost in the evolutionary generational hand offs that occur regularly. I drop dead without very good documentation of what I own, the next owner(s) ‘rediscover’ material.
I think that one of the best things we can do is document our collections. I am not speaking of simply listing or inventory of what we own, I am talking about quality digital scans of everything. Not only is this important for insurance purposes, but it also helps preserves our research and organization. It is also important for folks who have purposely included fake/forgeries in their albums. And as we all now, it is likely that no matter how much time and effort you have put into an album and/or album pages after we are gone chances that it will stay that way is almost 0%.
Lastly, and coming from a person who was forced to face my mortality, it is far better to sell off your material while you are still alive. The issue is ‘when do you pull that trigger’? In my case, I stopped adding new material and gambled that I would not die even though doctors put my survival at 5%. I happened to beat the odds (this time) but frankly it was pretty selfish of me to gamble parking a roomful of heavy philatelic stuff on my wife. So over the last few years, I have been digitizing everything that I could. I am giving away and dispositioning a lot of things but my memories will always be mine own and the digital images and documentation helps me to reminisce. I also find that ‘giving back’ to the hobby is very cathartic and digitizing materials is a way to do just that.
Don
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05:38:47pm
I agree with almost everything that Don says, which is why I don't expect my collection to bring more than 10% CV and then probably be redistributed at about 30 - 40% CV. That's if the seller is lucky! Some of my prize pieces might bring more but most will bring less, some far less.
The only place I disagree with Don is when to dispose of the collection. I'd like to imagine that on my death bed I will be putting stamps in an album. Maybe I'll have a really nice copy of U.S. #2 by then.
Edit: Also, remember that I am in a totally different situation than most of you. I have no family to burden with my stuff. That is why I want to enjoy it as long as I can and then have the proceeds go to charities. I picked smaller local charities with lower administration costs - things like animal rescue, animal shelters, the V.O.N. because they were a huge help when my wife was sick, The local Lions Club (same reason) and a few other small local groups that need money. Even my 5 acres of land will be sold for charity. I'm not implying it's good to not have family, but that makes my situation different. I'll enjoy my things while I'm here to enjoy them!
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"Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell. "
Truer words were never spoken. I was told this the first year I was in business - 1985. It can be a difficult concept to grasp but one that every person who makes a living as a stamp dealer eventually learns
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""Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell. ""
Yes I can see that point of view but I was brought up differently.
Namely that a percentage increase on the selling price is worth more than the same percentage decrease on the purchase price. So concentrate on your selling price.
If you can do both at the same time even better!
ie purchase price $10..... selling price $20
$10 - 10% = $1 extra made
$20 + 10% = $2 extra made
If you can do both = $3 extra made!!
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07:35:20pm
Just a question... Thanks to a SoR seller I have the series US #112 to #122 (the 1869 square series), all used unfortunately. Looking in my 2010 Scott's classic I have a CV of $5705. Also, thanks mostly to my long time dealer, I have the 1897 Canada Jubilee series, first half mint and the second half used. Using the same catalog I get $5510. All stamps in both series are fairly well centered with, if used, non-defacing post marks. These series are hard to find complete so surely in this case a buyer, if trying to be fair and honest, would offer more than 10%. If a person had enough good material and an honest buyer (they do exist) a collection could sell for good money. But it's up to us, the seller or owner, to have a rough idea what a fair price would be. If you had a large collection this would be a lot of work. Imagine the work that Mr. AntoniusRa would have to do!!
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Your question has a large dependency upon condition. Are the #112 to #122 series stamps certified? If not then many buyers (including dealers) are going to assume that there are condition issues with some/all of the stamps.
Reperfs, repairs, and other condition issues abound in many collections, some hobbyists can either have rose colored glasses or lack the experience (or money) needed to assemble all high quality items. Dealers are not going to sit there and go through every stamp in a collection to determine condition. If they spot a reperf, a forgery, or condition issues with a few stamps they will make assumptions on the entire collection that will impact its valuation.
Don
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Good morning Harvey,
Preparing your collection for disposal for when you are gone does not need to be daunting task. I'm surprised Don did not give a link to The Stamp Smarter site. Here is a link for inventorying your collection. It is a simple form that will help you decide how to dispose of your albums. It will make it easier for your executor and give you peace of mind.
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/FormAlbumDisposition.html
Here is a link to the APS that addresses disposing of a collection.
https://stamps.org/services/estate-advice
I have instructions in my will of who to contact and more importantly who not to contact to dispose of my collection.
I use an auction agent and he will help with my collection disposal.
I have a variety of collections so one dealer or auction company is not the way to go for me. Get your collection in some kind of order so you or your executor don't need to worry.
Vince
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11:46:46am
I really appreciate the advice, but I'm one of the lucky ones, I know who will be buying and selling my collection, my family of dealers that I've been with for 50 years. I'd estimate that at least 75% of the collection came directly from them, so they know the collection very well and I trust them completely. No person could be in the business that long without being honest! This thread was basically to raise a few questions about values. I think there is a fair bit of paranoia out there about certification. If we had every stamp over a certain amount certified the certifiers would get rich. I would have at least a hundred or so stamps to be checked. That really seems a bit insane to me. Maybe it is justified for overprints but most people look at those as album fillers and, like me, refuse to pay much for them. For example, my copy of US #122 has a CV (2010) of aver $2000 and I bought it from a very trusted SoR seller. I am sure it is genuine and having it certified is a waste of money, at least in my opinion. I am a careful buyer and almost always stay away from iffy sellers, if it's too good to be true 99.9% of the time I don't buy. Again, my opinion only!!
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The value of a collection is complex. I'm not sure if I can give a correct answer, but I can share my experience. It's an ideal method to pass on your collection to your children. However, if there's nobody to pass on to, then you will have to sell or donate them.
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In my stamp club, we have some elders who had to give up their collection due to age/ illness. None of them sell their collection. When we collect stamps, we expect to get $0 in return even thought there are some $ value. It's our culture not to re-sale our collection. Our elders donated their collection to national stamp museum. It's a safe place where stamps are displayed in the public. It's also a permanent home for the stamps because they're the property of the government & can never be sold. This insured the future generation to enjoy.
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Whenever an elder wants to see his collection he donated, he would run to the museum & see his collection there - it's conventional, but old fashion. There are some elders who volunteered at the museum just to mingle with visitors & stamp collectors. Their attachment to the museum is strong because all of the volunteers have donated their collection there.
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.
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PS- There are some deceased people who buried their stamp collection with them in the coffin. It's strange.
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07:58:36pm
David - If I had a friend who collected stamps and promised to keep it together I would joyfully leave it to them. Your ideas sound great to me, I wish we did things the same way here. Thank you very much for showing us a situation where greed is less common!
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I don't envisage popping my clogs just yet but I am selling my collections with that in mind ! 
A good friend of mine (and a former very part-time member) started to sell his collection after he retired whilst still maintaining full interest in the hobby.
I semi-retired earlier this week and have started to plan a similar system.
I will be selling everything slowly, slowly but keeping those collections that are most dear and add to them when possible.
So the interest will never fade of course but now I have the best of both worlds. I will be making space in the house and giving a much lesser headache for family I leave behind.
It's a win-win situation and will be a lot of fun.
I'll be selling at very low prices because I have already had my enjoyment out of my stamps. Let someone else enjoy at less cost is how I want to move forward.
Happy Collecting to all.
Londonbus1
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I have a small two shelf collection. This issue of disposition came up recently because we are redoing our wills due to a recent move.
In the end I created a binder and labelled it “Overview & Technical”. Inside is a “Collection Summary” that includes: the main goals/themes of my collection, what I have (1 white binder Newfoundland, 3 black binders Canada, etc.), where everything is located, where I want it all to go, addresses and phone numbers of those to contact about my collection on my demise, After that I included a printed out report from StampManage.com (but you can use other valuation programs) of my holdings.
The “Technical” part of the binder is information on how to identify stamps, etc.
The idea for the collection summary came from the Royal Philatelic Society of Canada, under their services tab. Click on estate services and they links to articles on collection disposition.
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Since I began collecting 2 years ago I have used my local stamp shop. The proprietor has always been exceptionally nice and I've spent a bit of money in his shop. My wife, a much more "canny" collector with many years more experience, took acollection of Chinese stamps to the shop and was offered around 20% of the actual sales value, As a result, she now shops elsewhere.
Today this was reported on the BBC News;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-55735037
It just shows you can never trust anyone. Was this the first time he did it? My wife did not make images of the Chinese collection and cannot say it was entirely as it had been when handed over for valuation. The message is; If you are making arrangements to sell your collection, ensure you have images and details of every page and item.
(Modified by Moderator on 2021-01-21 12:00:21)
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I have on occasion been asked to "value" a collection.
I try to give an accurate estimation of value and where to and whom to sell it. They always ask if I would buy it. I always reply that I will not. That way I cannot be accused of under valuing it.
If their collection comes up for sale at an auction I may bid for it I may not.
The interesting point of the link that Gudgie posted is this:-
How was the sellers valuation reached? Did they use a stamp catalogue? Did they manage to sell the collection at that price?
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
I am only wondering if the actual value of the collection was £25,000, if so why take it to a small time dealer in a small town?
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I think you may have missed the points I was trying to make Ian.
I was a regular buyer at the Kinross Stamp Shop, and I feel I was always given a great deal. However, on the occasion my wife asked for a valuation on a collection, his valuation was nowhere close to the valuation my wife, with over 50 years of stamp collecting knowledge, had estimated. There were at least 2 stamps in her collection for sale elsewhere, valued at more than his estimate of the total album.
Secondly, on the point of trusting someone with your collection, is it safe to leave it with any dealer. This gentleman's action on this occasion will have knock on effects across the stamp world. I asked the question was this the first occasion, or had it happened before and a trap was set to catch him out?
The value of the collection is not relevant. No report of disagreement on valuation has been raised except by yourself. It was a dishonest action by a dealer which I suggest will result in collectors ensuring their collections are now fully catalogued.
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Gudgie:- I didn't miss the point you were making. I was raising the discrepancy in the "valuation" and that valuations can be in the eye of the beholder.
When disposing of a stamp or a collection it is the sellers decision to accept or reject the valuation of any dealer. Nobody puts a gun to their head to accept a valuation. (Why do people not get two or three valuations and then decide).
I reiterate what I said earlier :-
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
We all know that many people have an inflated opinion of the value of their collection as they get a stamp catalogue, add up the values and then say their collection is worth £X when we all know the value is less than £X. First Day covers are a classic example. (I would love to get full catalogue price here on Stamporama)
In this case the media state the stamp was worth £5,000 yet the dealer had it listed at £649.50. That is some difference in the "valuation".
People should remember that unless a dealer takes a lengthy time to examine a collection they may miss the "valuable" stamp(s) and the dealer has to make a profit.
Dealers normally specialise in one or two fields and are just "guessing" the rest of the time. (One cannot be an expert in everything)
I attended this particular dealers auction and picked up a mixed box for £30. Inside were 6 Penny Blacks. ( I had looked into the box and never found them until I got home.) I know that had the dealer spotted them then they would have been auctioned seperately. In another mixed box sold for £40 by the same dealer was a stamp that eventually sold for Aus$60,000.
Yes there will be aftershocks because of what this dealer has done. Other dealers will be "tarred with the same brush" but this happens throughout various trades on a regular basis (garages, plumbers etc) but the honest ones shall prevail.
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06:54:17pm
Let me add my 10 cents worth. I have a dealer who(m) I trust since I've been dealing with him and/or his father for 50 years. He knows my collection well since he sold me a lot of it. But I realize that when he eventually gets my collection he will probably pay at the most 20% of the CV. It is(!) a valuable collection and it will take him a long time to get his money back. He also sells for well under CV unless it is a very prime and special item. He has to at least double his money so to expect more than 20% CV for my collection is stupid! Too many people over value their collection. I was an antique dealer for many years and bought privately on a regular basis. I knew what CV was for most things and told the seller I couldn't come close to that and that I expected to double my money. If the seller didn't like that we parted company, almost always on good terms. So you have to be very realistic about your collection, what it's worth (CV) is not even close to what you will get. There are a couple SOR sellers who charge too much for their stuff, but most of you are very reasonable!
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Ian, I can only take what this gentleman, well maybe person is more apt, has done. The catalogue value, the auction value, the buyers value, the eBay value, or the Stamporama value are irrelevant. This person was given a collection by a customer and he proceeded to remove a stamp from the album and offer it for sale by auction on the same day, hoping to make money himself. By any name that is theft. My comment was also in line with the discussion on this particular forum.
Rather than trying to understand how difficult it is for dealers to make ends meet when gold slips through their fingers, I feel sorry for the person whom he attempted to cheat out of money, no matter how much it was. In conversations I've had with him he has spoken about how dishonest others in the same field are, and named names too.
I am 100% certain it will cost considerably more in damage to his business and reputation, and I repeat I was always happy to buy from him. But, as you are always so keen to use the Scottish vernacular, "Fae noo oan, Ah'll be suppin' wi a gey lang spoon"
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“Thou shalt not steal“ is one of the Ten Commandments and many of us learned ethics from them.
But there is no Commandment that says “Thou shalt not swap”, so I am pretty sure that the dealer did nothing wrong. 
Don
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Gudgie:-
I repeat the dealer was wrong.
In the Scottish Judicial System the value of the goods stolen determines the sentence handed down.
Therefore the value of the items stolen is crucial.
Should a person that steals a £5 piece of beef receive the same sentence as a person that steals a Ferrari?
No!
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i'm jumping in
the dealer is a thief, a poor liar, and a cad... these are from his theft of the single rare stamp that happened to be the sole stamp that fell out of the album.
As to his valuation of a collection, 20% of CV for a very good collection is a good offer in my view (knowing nothing more about it than it had a 5K pound stamp in it, which he offered on eBay at 13% of CV.
Yes, some of us will get a nice return on some of the choice bits in our collections, but i remember seeing multiple times that dealers expect to pay around 4% CV of a good collection if they are to make money from it.
Myself, I don't expect the dealers from whom I've bought material to give me anything near what I paid them for it (unless I were able to improve its value by identifying aspects that make it more valuable).
So, in my mind, dealer made a fair offer and dealer is a thief
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Ian,
It doesn't matter a jot if he stole a Second class stamp for postage or he stole a Ferrari, he is a thief. You think we should cut him some slack. Excuse me, but I don't understand the logic. If you were the person whom he stole from, would you still be so sympathetic?
I repeat, he will pay a far greater price in lost business and reputation than any find imposed by the court.
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Gudgie:-
I repeat
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
In the Scottish Judicial System the value of the goods stolen determines the sentence handed down.
Therefore the value of the items stolen is crucial and relevant.
I AM NOT BEING SYMPATHETIC. I AM NOT SAYING TO CUT HIM SOME SLACK
YES his business is finished (at the moment). Yes there will be consequences for others.
But you can bet your bottom dollar that he will continue selling on various internet platforms.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Jan 2021
12:01:19pm
I realize most people don't care about this since we collect for the fun of collecting and the joy of the hobby, myself included. But the value is important to me - I have no family to leave any of my many collections to, so when I am no longer here to collect, my "stuff" will be sold and the proceeds will go to several local charities named in my will. It's a difficult process to make sure this is properly done and I have it spelled out where things are to go. The stamp collection is something I have been working on for about 50 years and it has a very significant catalog value, which as you know means nothing. I've been informed that most appraisers just scan the collection very quickly and pull a low number out of the air - please correct me if I am wrong. I am lucky that I have been dealing with the same family of dealers for 50 years and asked them if they would buy and then sell my collection. He agreed, and even though he probably will still only pay about 10% CV, at least he has a good idea of the value and contents of the collection - a regular appraiser would not. I think a lot of us should think about our "stuff" and how to dispose of it - unless you are lucky enough to have someone to leave it to. I wish I did, I hate to think of my hard work being broken up. Sorry if I rambled, but this topic is important to me!
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12:22:47pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
It is probably the best idea to allow a dealer/auctioneer that you trust to dispose of your collections when the time comes.
I hope that it is a long time coming.
Clear instructions must be left for your executors and your collections must be clearly marked what they are and where they are listed in your will to ensure your wishes are met.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Jan 2021
01:11:00pm
re: Value of a collection
Thanks for the comments Ian, I hope the day is a long time coming as well. I am 69 and in fair health, but... My wife had never been sick a day in her life until getting cancer and then taking an agonizing four years to die. I know this is morbid but, especially in these weird times, we have to consider our own vulnerability and make plans. It's really not fair to your families to put everything on them! , be .
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re: Value of a collection
it's grand that you already have dealers who not only know your stuff, but likely sold it to you.
our local club has been lotting and selling collections from locals who've passed or are making arrangements.
Some of the material has been top notch; some, meh.
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02:52:33pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
It is a must to choose the right person to sell your collection.
Let me tell you a story, are you sitting comfortably, then I'll begin:-
Once upon a time a stamp collector passed away and the executor (who knew nothing about stamps) of his will asked the local Auction House to sell the collection.
Now this Aution House was based in a small village of some 2500 souls, some thirty miles from the nearest urban conurbations.
The proprieter of the auction house diligently broke up the collection into auction lots.
There were Albums, Country collections, sets and individual stamps.
He advertised the auction in all the papers he normally used with interested parties to ask for an Auction Catalogue. When one received the catalogue items were priced at 50% of catalogue and above.
The day of the auction arrived and despite the advertising there were only 14 of us. It turned out that there were no phone bids, no postal bids and worst of all the executor had told the auctioneer no reserves. All items to sell on the day!(I learned this after the sale).
The 14 of us lived happily ever after.
For a while. I did feel a bit sad when I discoverd the circumstances of how the items appeared at auction.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Jan 2021
04:11:01pm
re: Value of a collection
Ian, I would have felt a bit bad as well, but at least you would have given your part of the collection a good home - you probably sold some, but I'm sure some of it found a good home in your collections. It really is a shame the way some things are handled when a person dies. I've been an attender of antique auctions for many years and I really get depressed when wonderful family items are scattered to the wind. I was at an auction a couple years ago and bought a few items from my home town of Liverpool, Nova Scotia. One thing was a set of Civil War era cast iron hand cuffs from the local jail. No one had even bothered to write a note to supply provenance for them. I treasure them, but when I'm gone they will just be an old pair of hand cuffs - G.O.K. what they will be used for! By the way, they have their key!!
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re: Value of a collection
A couple of thoughts…
Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell.
Catalog publishers have abused the hobby for over a century by advocating totally misleading valuations. (Why we continue to support catalog publishers is beyond me.) They increase the value each year because they know that if they were to drop prices or reflect actual market values their catalog sales would decline. In defense of increasing catalog prices, the publishers do have to deal with inflation and its impact of values. The truth is that if you stop and analyze stamp values since about 1920 you will see that stamp valuation is flat. If you purchased a set of US Zeps in 1940, the value is exactly the same as today when you factor in inflation. Stamps are not a very good investment; if folks want a good investment they should buy vintage Dennison hinges which have seen an increase of over 4000% since the 1970s. (Yes, there are examples of some good stamp investments but I think that the overwhelming majority of stamp collections and stamps are not good investments.)
Some wonder why our hobby’s health is not what it could be; in my opinion the setting of unrealistic value expectations serves to damage the hobby in a significant way. Time after time, year after year, we see potential new hobbyists enter the hobby with the expectation that they can quit their day job and retire on a ‘stamp collection’ that is barely more than a kids starter album. How much time, effort and money has been spent on trying to explain to these new potential hobbyists the real intrinsic value of our hobby? How much time How much time, effort and money have been spent on combatting ‘treasure hunting’ attitudes in our hobby? I think this is largely because less experience folks see a catalog values and think, ‘oh wow, look at the great deal I got’.
And as this thread suggests, the result of these issues manifests itself when a lifelong effort is dispositioned. I like that Harvey mentions dispositioning his material back to the dealer that sold him much of it; this highlights that we a just temporary stewards of this material. It also illustrates how the same material recycles through the hobby over and over again. I would guess that 9 out of 10 ‘new finds’ are not new at all but rather simply forgotten or lost in the evolutionary generational hand offs that occur regularly. I drop dead without very good documentation of what I own, the next owner(s) ‘rediscover’ material.
I think that one of the best things we can do is document our collections. I am not speaking of simply listing or inventory of what we own, I am talking about quality digital scans of everything. Not only is this important for insurance purposes, but it also helps preserves our research and organization. It is also important for folks who have purposely included fake/forgeries in their albums. And as we all now, it is likely that no matter how much time and effort you have put into an album and/or album pages after we are gone chances that it will stay that way is almost 0%.
Lastly, and coming from a person who was forced to face my mortality, it is far better to sell off your material while you are still alive. The issue is ‘when do you pull that trigger’? In my case, I stopped adding new material and gambled that I would not die even though doctors put my survival at 5%. I happened to beat the odds (this time) but frankly it was pretty selfish of me to gamble parking a roomful of heavy philatelic stuff on my wife. So over the last few years, I have been digitizing everything that I could. I am giving away and dispositioning a lot of things but my memories will always be mine own and the digital images and documentation helps me to reminisce. I also find that ‘giving back’ to the hobby is very cathartic and digitizing materials is a way to do just that.
Don
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Jan 2021
05:38:47pm
re: Value of a collection
I agree with almost everything that Don says, which is why I don't expect my collection to bring more than 10% CV and then probably be redistributed at about 30 - 40% CV. That's if the seller is lucky! Some of my prize pieces might bring more but most will bring less, some far less.
The only place I disagree with Don is when to dispose of the collection. I'd like to imagine that on my death bed I will be putting stamps in an album. Maybe I'll have a really nice copy of U.S. #2 by then.
Edit: Also, remember that I am in a totally different situation than most of you. I have no family to burden with my stuff. That is why I want to enjoy it as long as I can and then have the proceeds go to charities. I picked smaller local charities with lower administration costs - things like animal rescue, animal shelters, the V.O.N. because they were a huge help when my wife was sick, The local Lions Club (same reason) and a few other small local groups that need money. Even my 5 acres of land will be sold for charity. I'm not implying it's good to not have family, but that makes my situation different. I'll enjoy my things while I'm here to enjoy them!
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06:03:27pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
"Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell. "
Truer words were never spoken. I was told this the first year I was in business - 1985. It can be a difficult concept to grasp but one that every person who makes a living as a stamp dealer eventually learns
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06:23:39pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
""Dealers make their money when they buy, not when they sell. ""
Yes I can see that point of view but I was brought up differently.
Namely that a percentage increase on the selling price is worth more than the same percentage decrease on the purchase price. So concentrate on your selling price.
If you can do both at the same time even better!
ie purchase price $10..... selling price $20
$10 - 10% = $1 extra made
$20 + 10% = $2 extra made
If you can do both = $3 extra made!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Jan 2021
07:35:20pm
re: Value of a collection
Just a question... Thanks to a SoR seller I have the series US #112 to #122 (the 1869 square series), all used unfortunately. Looking in my 2010 Scott's classic I have a CV of $5705. Also, thanks mostly to my long time dealer, I have the 1897 Canada Jubilee series, first half mint and the second half used. Using the same catalog I get $5510. All stamps in both series are fairly well centered with, if used, non-defacing post marks. These series are hard to find complete so surely in this case a buyer, if trying to be fair and honest, would offer more than 10%. If a person had enough good material and an honest buyer (they do exist) a collection could sell for good money. But it's up to us, the seller or owner, to have a rough idea what a fair price would be. If you had a large collection this would be a lot of work. Imagine the work that Mr. AntoniusRa would have to do!!
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re: Value of a collection
Your question has a large dependency upon condition. Are the #112 to #122 series stamps certified? If not then many buyers (including dealers) are going to assume that there are condition issues with some/all of the stamps.
Reperfs, repairs, and other condition issues abound in many collections, some hobbyists can either have rose colored glasses or lack the experience (or money) needed to assemble all high quality items. Dealers are not going to sit there and go through every stamp in a collection to determine condition. If they spot a reperf, a forgery, or condition issues with a few stamps they will make assumptions on the entire collection that will impact its valuation.
Don
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re: Value of a collection
Good morning Harvey,
Preparing your collection for disposal for when you are gone does not need to be daunting task. I'm surprised Don did not give a link to The Stamp Smarter site. Here is a link for inventorying your collection. It is a simple form that will help you decide how to dispose of your albums. It will make it easier for your executor and give you peace of mind.
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/FormAlbumDisposition.html
Here is a link to the APS that addresses disposing of a collection.
https://stamps.org/services/estate-advice
I have instructions in my will of who to contact and more importantly who not to contact to dispose of my collection.
I use an auction agent and he will help with my collection disposal.
I have a variety of collections so one dealer or auction company is not the way to go for me. Get your collection in some kind of order so you or your executor don't need to worry.
Vince
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Jan 2021
11:46:46am
re: Value of a collection
I really appreciate the advice, but I'm one of the lucky ones, I know who will be buying and selling my collection, my family of dealers that I've been with for 50 years. I'd estimate that at least 75% of the collection came directly from them, so they know the collection very well and I trust them completely. No person could be in the business that long without being honest! This thread was basically to raise a few questions about values. I think there is a fair bit of paranoia out there about certification. If we had every stamp over a certain amount certified the certifiers would get rich. I would have at least a hundred or so stamps to be checked. That really seems a bit insane to me. Maybe it is justified for overprints but most people look at those as album fillers and, like me, refuse to pay much for them. For example, my copy of US #122 has a CV (2010) of aver $2000 and I bought it from a very trusted SoR seller. I am sure it is genuine and having it certified is a waste of money, at least in my opinion. I am a careful buyer and almost always stay away from iffy sellers, if it's too good to be true 99.9% of the time I don't buy. Again, my opinion only!!
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re: Value of a collection
The value of a collection is complex. I'm not sure if I can give a correct answer, but I can share my experience. It's an ideal method to pass on your collection to your children. However, if there's nobody to pass on to, then you will have to sell or donate them.
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In my stamp club, we have some elders who had to give up their collection due to age/ illness. None of them sell their collection. When we collect stamps, we expect to get $0 in return even thought there are some $ value. It's our culture not to re-sale our collection. Our elders donated their collection to national stamp museum. It's a safe place where stamps are displayed in the public. It's also a permanent home for the stamps because they're the property of the government & can never be sold. This insured the future generation to enjoy.
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Whenever an elder wants to see his collection he donated, he would run to the museum & see his collection there - it's conventional, but old fashion. There are some elders who volunteered at the museum just to mingle with visitors & stamp collectors. Their attachment to the museum is strong because all of the volunteers have donated their collection there.
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PS- There are some deceased people who buried their stamp collection with them in the coffin. It's strange.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Jan 2021
07:58:36pm
re: Value of a collection
David - If I had a friend who collected stamps and promised to keep it together I would joyfully leave it to them. Your ideas sound great to me, I wish we did things the same way here. Thank you very much for showing us a situation where greed is less common!
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re: Value of a collection
I don't envisage popping my clogs just yet but I am selling my collections with that in mind !
A good friend of mine (and a former very part-time member) started to sell his collection after he retired whilst still maintaining full interest in the hobby.
I semi-retired earlier this week and have started to plan a similar system.
I will be selling everything slowly, slowly but keeping those collections that are most dear and add to them when possible.
So the interest will never fade of course but now I have the best of both worlds. I will be making space in the house and giving a much lesser headache for family I leave behind.
It's a win-win situation and will be a lot of fun.
I'll be selling at very low prices because I have already had my enjoyment out of my stamps. Let someone else enjoy at less cost is how I want to move forward.
Happy Collecting to all.
Londonbus1
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08:00:39am
re: Value of a collection
I have a small two shelf collection. This issue of disposition came up recently because we are redoing our wills due to a recent move.
In the end I created a binder and labelled it “Overview & Technical”. Inside is a “Collection Summary” that includes: the main goals/themes of my collection, what I have (1 white binder Newfoundland, 3 black binders Canada, etc.), where everything is located, where I want it all to go, addresses and phone numbers of those to contact about my collection on my demise, After that I included a printed out report from StampManage.com (but you can use other valuation programs) of my holdings.
The “Technical” part of the binder is information on how to identify stamps, etc.
The idea for the collection summary came from the Royal Philatelic Society of Canada, under their services tab. Click on estate services and they links to articles on collection disposition.
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11:44:34am
re: Value of a collection
Since I began collecting 2 years ago I have used my local stamp shop. The proprietor has always been exceptionally nice and I've spent a bit of money in his shop. My wife, a much more "canny" collector with many years more experience, took acollection of Chinese stamps to the shop and was offered around 20% of the actual sales value, As a result, she now shops elsewhere.
Today this was reported on the BBC News;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-55735037
It just shows you can never trust anyone. Was this the first time he did it? My wife did not make images of the Chinese collection and cannot say it was entirely as it had been when handed over for valuation. The message is; If you are making arrangements to sell your collection, ensure you have images and details of every page and item.
(Modified by Moderator on 2021-01-21 12:00:21)
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11:59:44am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
I have on occasion been asked to "value" a collection.
I try to give an accurate estimation of value and where to and whom to sell it. They always ask if I would buy it. I always reply that I will not. That way I cannot be accused of under valuing it.
If their collection comes up for sale at an auction I may bid for it I may not.
The interesting point of the link that Gudgie posted is this:-
How was the sellers valuation reached? Did they use a stamp catalogue? Did they manage to sell the collection at that price?
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
I am only wondering if the actual value of the collection was £25,000, if so why take it to a small time dealer in a small town?
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05:37:08pm
re: Value of a collection
I think you may have missed the points I was trying to make Ian.
I was a regular buyer at the Kinross Stamp Shop, and I feel I was always given a great deal. However, on the occasion my wife asked for a valuation on a collection, his valuation was nowhere close to the valuation my wife, with over 50 years of stamp collecting knowledge, had estimated. There were at least 2 stamps in her collection for sale elsewhere, valued at more than his estimate of the total album.
Secondly, on the point of trusting someone with your collection, is it safe to leave it with any dealer. This gentleman's action on this occasion will have knock on effects across the stamp world. I asked the question was this the first occasion, or had it happened before and a trap was set to catch him out?
The value of the collection is not relevant. No report of disagreement on valuation has been raised except by yourself. It was a dishonest action by a dealer which I suggest will result in collectors ensuring their collections are now fully catalogued.
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06:29:47pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
Gudgie:- I didn't miss the point you were making. I was raising the discrepancy in the "valuation" and that valuations can be in the eye of the beholder.
When disposing of a stamp or a collection it is the sellers decision to accept or reject the valuation of any dealer. Nobody puts a gun to their head to accept a valuation. (Why do people not get two or three valuations and then decide).
I reiterate what I said earlier :-
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
We all know that many people have an inflated opinion of the value of their collection as they get a stamp catalogue, add up the values and then say their collection is worth £X when we all know the value is less than £X. First Day covers are a classic example. (I would love to get full catalogue price here on Stamporama)
In this case the media state the stamp was worth £5,000 yet the dealer had it listed at £649.50. That is some difference in the "valuation".
People should remember that unless a dealer takes a lengthy time to examine a collection they may miss the "valuable" stamp(s) and the dealer has to make a profit.
Dealers normally specialise in one or two fields and are just "guessing" the rest of the time. (One cannot be an expert in everything)
I attended this particular dealers auction and picked up a mixed box for £30. Inside were 6 Penny Blacks. ( I had looked into the box and never found them until I got home.) I know that had the dealer spotted them then they would have been auctioned seperately. In another mixed box sold for £40 by the same dealer was a stamp that eventually sold for Aus$60,000.
Yes there will be aftershocks because of what this dealer has done. Other dealers will be "tarred with the same brush" but this happens throughout various trades on a regular basis (garages, plumbers etc) but the honest ones shall prevail.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
21 Jan 2021
06:54:17pm
re: Value of a collection
Let me add my 10 cents worth. I have a dealer who(m) I trust since I've been dealing with him and/or his father for 50 years. He knows my collection well since he sold me a lot of it. But I realize that when he eventually gets my collection he will probably pay at the most 20% of the CV. It is(!) a valuable collection and it will take him a long time to get his money back. He also sells for well under CV unless it is a very prime and special item. He has to at least double his money so to expect more than 20% CV for my collection is stupid! Too many people over value their collection. I was an antique dealer for many years and bought privately on a regular basis. I knew what CV was for most things and told the seller I couldn't come close to that and that I expected to double my money. If the seller didn't like that we parted company, almost always on good terms. So you have to be very realistic about your collection, what it's worth (CV) is not even close to what you will get. There are a couple SOR sellers who charge too much for their stuff, but most of you are very reasonable!
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08:41:57pm
re: Value of a collection
Ian, I can only take what this gentleman, well maybe person is more apt, has done. The catalogue value, the auction value, the buyers value, the eBay value, or the Stamporama value are irrelevant. This person was given a collection by a customer and he proceeded to remove a stamp from the album and offer it for sale by auction on the same day, hoping to make money himself. By any name that is theft. My comment was also in line with the discussion on this particular forum.
Rather than trying to understand how difficult it is for dealers to make ends meet when gold slips through their fingers, I feel sorry for the person whom he attempted to cheat out of money, no matter how much it was. In conversations I've had with him he has spoken about how dishonest others in the same field are, and named names too.
I am 100% certain it will cost considerably more in damage to his business and reputation, and I repeat I was always happy to buy from him. But, as you are always so keen to use the Scottish vernacular, "Fae noo oan, Ah'll be suppin' wi a gey lang spoon"
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re: Value of a collection
“Thou shalt not steal“ is one of the Ten Commandments and many of us learned ethics from them.
But there is no Commandment that says “Thou shalt not swap”, so I am pretty sure that the dealer did nothing wrong.
Don
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05:08:36am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
Gudgie:-
I repeat the dealer was wrong.
In the Scottish Judicial System the value of the goods stolen determines the sentence handed down.
Therefore the value of the items stolen is crucial.
Should a person that steals a £5 piece of beef receive the same sentence as a person that steals a Ferrari?
No!
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re: Value of a collection
i'm jumping in
the dealer is a thief, a poor liar, and a cad... these are from his theft of the single rare stamp that happened to be the sole stamp that fell out of the album.
As to his valuation of a collection, 20% of CV for a very good collection is a good offer in my view (knowing nothing more about it than it had a 5K pound stamp in it, which he offered on eBay at 13% of CV.
Yes, some of us will get a nice return on some of the choice bits in our collections, but i remember seeing multiple times that dealers expect to pay around 4% CV of a good collection if they are to make money from it.
Myself, I don't expect the dealers from whom I've bought material to give me anything near what I paid them for it (unless I were able to improve its value by identifying aspects that make it more valuable).
So, in my mind, dealer made a fair offer and dealer is a thief
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05:40:30pm
re: Value of a collection
Ian,
It doesn't matter a jot if he stole a Second class stamp for postage or he stole a Ferrari, he is a thief. You think we should cut him some slack. Excuse me, but I don't understand the logic. If you were the person whom he stole from, would you still be so sympathetic?
I repeat, he will pay a far greater price in lost business and reputation than any find imposed by the court.
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07:18:48pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Value of a collection
Gudgie:-
I repeat
I am not condoning what the dealer did! He was wrong!
In the Scottish Judicial System the value of the goods stolen determines the sentence handed down.
Therefore the value of the items stolen is crucial and relevant.
I AM NOT BEING SYMPATHETIC. I AM NOT SAYING TO CUT HIM SOME SLACK
YES his business is finished (at the moment). Yes there will be consequences for others.
But you can bet your bottom dollar that he will continue selling on various internet platforms.
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