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Asia/Other : Japan copy ? Or ?

 

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Perf11

Of course I talk to myself. Sometimes I need expert advice !

14 Apr 2021
12:32:31pm
Image Not FoundImage Not Found


I was thinking the top stamp was a forgery and the bottom one was legitimate but then I turned the top one over and noticed a wavy line watermark. So is the bottom a forgery ? Thanks.
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"APS # 232803"
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
02:41:05pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Perf 11...

What resource are you consulting that leads you to conclude one of the stamps is a forgery?

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Philatarium
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APS #187980

14 Apr 2021
02:49:40pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?

I would bet they are both genuine. As far as I know, these were not forged, or, if they were, not widely forged (unlike the earlier stuff).*

There are 2 distinct Scott listings:

#434: with watermark, issued in 1949. 2021 cv: mnh 62.50 used 0.25

#520: no watermark, issued in 1952. 2021 cv: mnh 225.00 used 0.30

These are two instances of the workhorse definitives issued in the frenzied post-war period of occupation (1945-1952) and recovery, and you'll often encounter printing variations.

They are both printed by typography, and I would suspect differences in print quality had to do with plates wearing down, or newer plates hastily made to deal with the demand.

Edited to add:

* It has now floated back into my brain that there are forgeries of the Showa definitives, although not widespread. I think, in fact, there is an ISJP monograph on the subject, which in a perfect world, I would have within reach. Unfortunately, I do not have it handy. I think I would still assume they are genuine.


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Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
05:42:22pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Agree with philatarium’s comments.

Courtesy of “Within Reach Research”: ISJP Monograph 20: “The Showa Forgeries of Japan” by Ron Casey. June 2005.

By contrast Scott 363 was a common target of/for forgeries. Both in the First (New) Showa series (1947-47) and the Third Showa series (1945-46). Per Varro Tyler, sold chiefly through Philatelia Hungarica, the official Hungarian philatelic agency in Budapest.

Am a subscriber to the “never say never” school of thought. With that said, I again ask Perf11 to share why he believes his examples are forgeries.

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Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
05:47:13pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


The Showa forgeries are generally believed to include versions of the following Scott issues:

352, 353, 355, 356, 357, 360, 362, 363, 364, 364a, 364b, 365, and 367.

Again, info courtesy of Ron Casey and Ken Lewis.

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Philatarium
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APS #187980

14 Apr 2021
06:10:12pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?

Thanks, Calstamp, for doing the research and legwork to dig up that information!

It's very much appreciated!


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Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
06:47:42pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Douitash mashite.

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Bobstamp
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14 Apr 2021
06:58:58pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?

The wartime and immediate postwar stamps of Japan display many shade varieties and obvious differences in print and paper quality. Several years ago a member of my stamp club, the British Columbia Philatelic Society, presented a program about forgeries that included examples of the Showa forgeries. He said that printing plates from those issues were sold to a Hungarian firm that used them to print copies for the packet trade.

I was intrigued by that presentation, because I had assembled a small accumulation of Scott #364 ("Thunderstorm Below Fuji," based on a Hokusai print) which seem to include examples of all three Scott-listed varieties in ultramarine, deep ultramarine, and light blue. Of the 24 copies I have, few seem identical to any of the others. In trying to determine (and illustrate) the differences, I selected six of the stamps that showed the greatest differences, scanned them as a group, increased the contrast, saturation, and sharpness of the image in different ways, and included the resulting images in a a StampoRama article, "The Many Faces of Mt. Fuji".

The Scott catalogue listing of these stamps includes this warning, "Beware of nos. 362-364, 364a, 364b, 365 and 367 on unwatermarked paper." Several of my "Thunderstorm Below Fuji" stamps do not have watermarks, and are printed on hard, bright-white paper. Several of the other Showa issue in my collection show similar differences; some are printed on the same paper as the suspect "Thunderstorm Below Fuji" stamps.

Bob

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Philatarium
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APS #187980

14 Apr 2021
07:46:06pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?

That's great, Bob!

I keep accumulating mint and used examples of all the definitives of that era. Someday I hope to finally get to trying to study and display them in more depth.

Thanks very much for reminding us about that article!


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"You gotta put down the duckie if you wanna play the saxophone. (Hoots the Owl -- Sesame Street)"

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Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
07:59:43pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Thanks for your posting, Bob.

Believe the “Showa forgeries” and “Hungarian connection” story has been circulating for
many years now, including a variety of twists.

Another posits that the forged stamps were printed locally and shipped to Budapest where the official philatelic agency placed them into the “packet trade” in an effort to generate “hard currency” from the West. And so are the challenges of verifying informal (often oral) history.

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Perf11

Of course I talk to myself. Sometimes I need expert advice !

15 Apr 2021
01:17:10pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Thank you gentlemen.

First of all my knowledge on Japanese definitives is rather limited compared to what I have just read.

The reason I thought the first one pictured might be a forgery was the printing quality. But you explained that rather nicely. Although the cancellation looked authentic.

Thank you for your time and research. Much appreciated.


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"APS # 232803"
Calstamp

15 Apr 2021
02:51:14pm
re: Japan copy ? Or ?

Appreciate your (candid) response. As Philatarium noted, the printing quality of stamps of this period varied based on ink, paper, and condition of the plates.

The Scott catalogue is a good starting point. However, if this becomes an area of interest for you,
recommend checking out the resources available through the APRL.

Lastly, the ISJP is a good group. It publishes a high quality journal, which at first can be a bit intimidating. However, the journal served as a mechanism for meeting fellow collectors, a number of whom proved very generous with their time and knowledge. (Personally, it greatly accelerated my knowledge and understanding of Japanese revenue and fiscal issues.)

Have fun!

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Author/Postings
Perf11

Of course I talk to myself. Sometimes I need expert advice !

14 Apr 2021
12:32:31pm

Image Not FoundImage Not Found


I was thinking the top stamp was a forgery and the bottom one was legitimate but then I turned the top one over and noticed a wavy line watermark. So is the bottom a forgery ? Thanks.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS # 232803"
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
02:41:05pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Perf 11...

What resource are you consulting that leads you to conclude one of the stamps is a forgery?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Philatarium

APS #187980
14 Apr 2021
02:49:40pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?

I would bet they are both genuine. As far as I know, these were not forged, or, if they were, not widely forged (unlike the earlier stuff).*

There are 2 distinct Scott listings:

#434: with watermark, issued in 1949. 2021 cv: mnh 62.50 used 0.25

#520: no watermark, issued in 1952. 2021 cv: mnh 225.00 used 0.30

These are two instances of the workhorse definitives issued in the frenzied post-war period of occupation (1945-1952) and recovery, and you'll often encounter printing variations.

They are both printed by typography, and I would suspect differences in print quality had to do with plates wearing down, or newer plates hastily made to deal with the demand.

Edited to add:

* It has now floated back into my brain that there are forgeries of the Showa definitives, although not widespread. I think, in fact, there is an ISJP monograph on the subject, which in a perfect world, I would have within reach. Unfortunately, I do not have it handy. I think I would still assume they are genuine.


Like 
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Login to Like.

"You gotta put down the duckie if you wanna play the saxophone. (Hoots the Owl -- Sesame Street)"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
05:42:22pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Agree with philatarium’s comments.

Courtesy of “Within Reach Research”: ISJP Monograph 20: “The Showa Forgeries of Japan” by Ron Casey. June 2005.

By contrast Scott 363 was a common target of/for forgeries. Both in the First (New) Showa series (1947-47) and the Third Showa series (1945-46). Per Varro Tyler, sold chiefly through Philatelia Hungarica, the official Hungarian philatelic agency in Budapest.

Am a subscriber to the “never say never” school of thought. With that said, I again ask Perf11 to share why he believes his examples are forgeries.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
05:47:13pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


The Showa forgeries are generally believed to include versions of the following Scott issues:

352, 353, 355, 356, 357, 360, 362, 363, 364, 364a, 364b, 365, and 367.

Again, info courtesy of Ron Casey and Ken Lewis.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Philatarium

APS #187980
14 Apr 2021
06:10:12pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?

Thanks, Calstamp, for doing the research and legwork to dig up that information!

It's very much appreciated!


Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"You gotta put down the duckie if you wanna play the saxophone. (Hoots the Owl -- Sesame Street)"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
06:47:42pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Douitash mashite.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Bobstamp

14 Apr 2021
06:58:58pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?

The wartime and immediate postwar stamps of Japan display many shade varieties and obvious differences in print and paper quality. Several years ago a member of my stamp club, the British Columbia Philatelic Society, presented a program about forgeries that included examples of the Showa forgeries. He said that printing plates from those issues were sold to a Hungarian firm that used them to print copies for the packet trade.

I was intrigued by that presentation, because I had assembled a small accumulation of Scott #364 ("Thunderstorm Below Fuji," based on a Hokusai print) which seem to include examples of all three Scott-listed varieties in ultramarine, deep ultramarine, and light blue. Of the 24 copies I have, few seem identical to any of the others. In trying to determine (and illustrate) the differences, I selected six of the stamps that showed the greatest differences, scanned them as a group, increased the contrast, saturation, and sharpness of the image in different ways, and included the resulting images in a a StampoRama article, "The Many Faces of Mt. Fuji".

The Scott catalogue listing of these stamps includes this warning, "Beware of nos. 362-364, 364a, 364b, 365 and 367 on unwatermarked paper." Several of my "Thunderstorm Below Fuji" stamps do not have watermarks, and are printed on hard, bright-white paper. Several of the other Showa issue in my collection show similar differences; some are printed on the same paper as the suspect "Thunderstorm Below Fuji" stamps.

Bob

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www.ephemeraltreasur ...
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Philatarium

APS #187980
14 Apr 2021
07:46:06pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?

That's great, Bob!

I keep accumulating mint and used examples of all the definitives of that era. Someday I hope to finally get to trying to study and display them in more depth.

Thanks very much for reminding us about that article!


Like
Login to Like
this post

"You gotta put down the duckie if you wanna play the saxophone. (Hoots the Owl -- Sesame Street)"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Calstamp

14 Apr 2021
07:59:43pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Thanks for your posting, Bob.

Believe the “Showa forgeries” and “Hungarian connection” story has been circulating for
many years now, including a variety of twists.

Another posits that the forged stamps were printed locally and shipped to Budapest where the official philatelic agency placed them into the “packet trade” in an effort to generate “hard currency” from the West. And so are the challenges of verifying informal (often oral) history.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Perf11

Of course I talk to myself. Sometimes I need expert advice !

15 Apr 2021
01:17:10pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?


Thank you gentlemen.

First of all my knowledge on Japanese definitives is rather limited compared to what I have just read.

The reason I thought the first one pictured might be a forgery was the printing quality. But you explained that rather nicely. Although the cancellation looked authentic.

Thank you for your time and research. Much appreciated.


Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS # 232803"
Calstamp

15 Apr 2021
02:51:14pm

re: Japan copy ? Or ?

Appreciate your (candid) response. As Philatarium noted, the printing quality of stamps of this period varied based on ink, paper, and condition of the plates.

The Scott catalogue is a good starting point. However, if this becomes an area of interest for you,
recommend checking out the resources available through the APRL.

Lastly, the ISJP is a good group. It publishes a high quality journal, which at first can be a bit intimidating. However, the journal served as a mechanism for meeting fellow collectors, a number of whom proved very generous with their time and knowledge. (Personally, it greatly accelerated my knowledge and understanding of Japanese revenue and fiscal issues.)

Have fun!

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
        

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