Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Referring to Canadian stamps:
Going through Unitrade Canada 1900-1950 era many definitives are listed as existing single with a straight edge from a booklet pane. Am I right in thinking a pane of sheet stamps has straight edge stamps on 2 edges from being cut from the full sheet? I can't find a specific yes or no answer, picture of a pane etc. If the pane has 2 edges of straight edge stamps then once a stamp is separated from the booklet pane how is it identified as being from a booklet vs a pane?
Going on to Elizabethan issues, am I right in thinking the panes usually have selvedge all around (except for the mini-panes of the 60's(?)) so a straight edge on Elizabethan issues usually would indicate a booklet stamp?
Trying to understand
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As I sort some more George V and get to higher values not issued in booklets I am still finding straight edges. So that seems to answer part of my question. Panes have straight edges.
I still wonder how to identify a booklet single without the attached booklet. Looking at the booklet panes, the only way seems to require a vertical pair which would have to have straight edges at both the top and bottom of the pair. Meaning an unattached single can't be identified as to source. Does that hold true with George VI and Elizabeth II issues?
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Brian, any chance of putting up an image or two of the stamps in question. May be some help in solving the issue.
My initial thoughts are that they are merely scissor cut as the imperforate issues would be cut all round (and are quite rare).
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I stand to be corrected, but...I believe most/all Canadian sheets of stamps (typically 25/50/100) have selvedge around them, hence the source of corner plate/imprint blocks - and therefore no straight edges on the actual stamps.
A straight edge on the top and bottom - or left and right - would be a coil stamp (not from a booklet/sheet).
Booklets come in varying rows/columns and may include both stamps and labels. Depending on the configuration of the booklet the straight edges would have the following variations: top only, bottom only, left only, right only - and at the corners: left/top, left/bottom, right/top, right bottom.
I've just recently started to create some album pages to "recreate" the booklet straight-edge positions. Kind of fun to keep an eye out for them.
P.S. Some booklet stamps may have no straight edge (i..e. coming from the middle of a row/column) and can usually be recognized by the perforations being different for booklet vs regular-issue stamps. I only discovered this recently tracking down some booklet stamps for "Harvey".
Sorry I don't have time to post some images - maybe tomorrow if I get a chance.
Dave.
Edit Added: My Unitrade catalogue shows booklet stamps going all the way back to George V - I keep my eye out for these for "Opa".
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02:40:41pm
I just saw this thread and was about to respond...until I read David's post. He has everything dead on.
Note to Holocaust Stamps: I am about half finished putting together a box of stuff for you. It's about time!!! Never put off 'til tomorrow what can be put off until the next day!
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Joe/Harvey: My post was also a reminder for me to look for the last 3-4 booklet stamps you need then get them in the mail before Christmas!
Dave.
P.S. To Management Team: Hope you are ok with this PDA - we are Canadians after all...
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Stamps were printed in sheets of 400 stamps. Then these cut into sheets of 100 stamps. This resulted in the sheet having two straight edges.
A sheet of 100 would have either a left side and bottom with straight edges or
right side and bottom having straight edges, or
left side and top side with straight edges or
right side and top edge with straight edges.
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Scan of 1c to 3c which were available as panes or booklets of 4 to 6 stamps.
A scan of 5c to 20c having 1 straight edge - these were not sold as booklets. I also have some (not shown) of these have 2 adjacent straight edges.
Unitrade Canada catalogue shows the booklet panes when available.
After looking at the 5c-20c stamps with straight edge I realized the sheets must be cut into panes as d1stamper described, each pane of 100 having 2 straight edges and 2 selvedge edges. I think that later in Queen Elizabeth II time panes started being printed with selvedge all around as Holocauststamps described, especially as the panes got smaller. Someone in Stamporama-land likely knows more about that. I haven't had much to do with full sheet panes. (back pains yes, stamp panes not so much).
So, my question was how to tell a booklet stamp with a straight edge from a straight edge stamp from the cut edge of a pane of 100. It looks as though once a single booklet stamp is separated from its parent booklet it will look the same as the stamp from the post office pane of 100.
Later on when retail panes started having selvedge all around, this was no longer a problem. I was recently making album pages for more recent issues where only the booklet stamps had straight edges, which is likely why the question came to me while filling pages for George V.
I think I'm starting to understand this. Thanks for all your comments as I sort this out.
Now, if I could only a penny black or a 3 penny beaver with 4 straight edges hidden in some of those old albums!
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Glad you have it sorted to your satisfaction. I assumed, wrongly, that when you were mentioning high value you meant the 50c and $1 pictorial stamps.
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05:13:52pm
I have nothing to do with full sheets of stamps, the only full sheet I have for Canada is #610 (The Korny Krieghoff stamp) because of it's many errors. I looked at that sheet and it has selvage around all four sides, hence no stamps with straight sides. I know(?) it comes from a larger sheet of four normal sheets. If one of these large sheets were not separated we would have gutter pairs, which is why gutter pairs exist ( I think ). How were earlier stamps done? Does anyone out there have a full sheet they can show us that has stamps with one or two flat sides? My gut tells me most of the stamps with flat sides come from booklet panes! Are booklet panes printed separately or are they cut from larger sheets of booklet panes?
Edit: I just noticed in the Unitrade Canada Specialized there is an excellent picture of how sheets of booklet panes are set up and how you can get tete-beche pairs of the 1928 George V series. If you have the 2015 edition it's on page 92 - check it out! I don't have a working camera or scanner but it would be great if someone posted the picture!
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07:10:06pm
Many Canadian stamps until the mid-1930s were printed in sheets of 400 (200 for large format high values) and cut into panes of 100 (or 50). These earlier sheets were not perforated in the "gutters" where the vertical and horizontal cuts were made and therefore the stamps along the inside vertical and horizontal rows were "natural straight edges" (the "natural" nomenclature is used in the trade to distinguish a straight edge that is not the result of damage).
Here are some samples:
And here are a couple of booklet panes of the same period:
Unless there was a difference in printing the sheet stock and the booklet stock (i.e. flat plate or rotary) I do not think there would be any way to differentiate straight edges from sheets versus straight edges from booklet panes, for the values that are available in booklet panes.
You will note that the airmail stamp is part of the the Arch and Maple Leaf issue of 1930. I believe it is the last issue to be cut with straight edges this way. I do not believe that the Next "Medallion" issue has any straight edges in the sheet stock. But if someone finds a #201 (13c purple Quebec Citadel) with a straight edge, I will stand corrected. I will check some stock later in the week to see if I see one. By this time, the large sheets were designed with perforated gutters and the cut was made between perforations, leaving selvage all around the panes of 50 or 100.
Roy
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Thank you Roy, nice to see the examples. Wonder how many have been thrown away in the belief that they were damaged by being cut.
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09:01:27pm
I neglected to mention that there was a return to straight edges on two sides of panes (sheets of 200, panes of 50) of many commemorative issues of the late 1960s into 1970.
It appears they are all issues printed by the British American Banknote Company.
Scott / Unitrade numbers that come to mind are:
482 Nonsuch
483 Lacrosse
484 Brown
493,
494 (Alcock and Brown 15c)
495 Osler
499 Charlottetown
504 Leacock
507 UN Biology
512 Kelsey
and several others after
It seems they are all engraved issues. The Lithographed issues seemed to be spared the straight edge treatment.
I recall these met with significant collector disapproval.
Roy
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Not all coil-looking stamps are such. Here are 4 booklet panes with row of the stamps that mimic a coil! Just keeps us all on our toes!
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Thanks Roy and BrightonPete for that information and pictures.
Now I have a better idea of where I can ignore the 'single with straight edge' listed in the Unitrade catalogue when making album pages, at least for some issues. And I thought I had all these special stamps,Ha ha
I thought Unitrade would have this info but couldn't find anything. It seems like basic information that should be there.
Stamporama is like the Encyclopedia Britannica for stamps!
Brian
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Sheepshanks, by high values I meant relative to the regular values for letters etc. I was thinking too of the centennial definitives where the 8c was a large format high value when issued that soon was overtaken by inflation and 8c was 1st class letters, and then it went on and on
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11:18:39am
Speaking of the Centennial issue, the 6c is one of those BABNC printings that included straight edges:
Roy
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Well, I'll just have to sort as best I can and be careful of those straight edges. By the way I just came to #201 and it is behaving itself very well, perfs all around
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03:53:28pm
Just a coincidence, but Uchaos just put the 1927 Canada Confederation series on auction and two of the stamps have straight edges. I was tempted but with all the other things I collect I really don't want to start collecting "Canada stamps with straight edges". Someone out there might want to though!
Edit: I just noticed in the Unitrade Canada Specialized there is an excellent picture of how sheets of booklet panes are set up and how you can get tete-beche pairs of the 1928 George V series. If you have the 2015 edition it's on page 92 - check it out! I don't have a working camera or scanner but it would be great if someone posted the picture!
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Just a follow-up to my straight edges.
As I got to my George VI and QE2 stamps I have tried making places for the identifiable booklet stamps. Here is the page I made for booklet stamps of Elizabeth II 1954 Wilding definitives.
And this is what I found in my pile to populate the page.
Interesting for where the booklet (or miniature pane) stamps can be identified somehow.
Brian
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07:29:11am
Is there any way to identify the central stamps?
Edit: With some of the newer stamps I think different perfs were often used with panes of stamps. I've found this out the hard way trying to fill some gaps in my album for newer stamps!
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07:40:08am
Just one minor note.
While all the above may be true for Canada's stamps, other countries may create coils and booklet panes in large sheets that are cut using a tool that usually will pass right though the center of a row of perforations. Machins are usually done that way and on close examination the perforations cut that way are sharply and evenly cut.
Thus Machin coils will have two opposite perf edges that are rough from being torn apart and the other pair of opposite edges that were obviously cut. Sheet stamps are torn all around, Booklet stamps may have one or two adjacent perfed edges that were cut and look like the battlements of a castle.
Such stamps are identified as TCTC, vertical coils, or CTCT, horizontal coils, with the first letter referring to the top edge.
Booklet stamps can be TCTT, TCCT, TTCC, and TTTC, again starting clockwise rom the stamp's top edge.
Several other nations do it that way, Dutch and Danish, I think.
And naturally Sheet stamps are TTTT.
Machins cut through a non-perforated gutter use the letter "I" for imperforated edges; TITT, TIIT, TTII, and TTTL, for those who care about things like that,
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I know this has come up before but searching didn't quite clear it up in my thick head.
Referring to Canadian stamps:
Going through Unitrade Canada 1900-1950 era many definitives are listed as existing single with a straight edge from a booklet pane. Am I right in thinking a pane of sheet stamps has straight edge stamps on 2 edges from being cut from the full sheet? I can't find a specific yes or no answer, picture of a pane etc. If the pane has 2 edges of straight edge stamps then once a stamp is separated from the booklet pane how is it identified as being from a booklet vs a pane?
Going on to Elizabethan issues, am I right in thinking the panes usually have selvedge all around (except for the mini-panes of the 60's(?)) so a straight edge on Elizabethan issues usually would indicate a booklet stamp?
Trying to understand
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re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
As I sort some more George V and get to higher values not issued in booklets I am still finding straight edges. So that seems to answer part of my question. Panes have straight edges.
I still wonder how to identify a booklet single without the attached booklet. Looking at the booklet panes, the only way seems to require a vertical pair which would have to have straight edges at both the top and bottom of the pair. Meaning an unattached single can't be identified as to source. Does that hold true with George VI and Elizabeth II issues?
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Approvals
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Brian, any chance of putting up an image or two of the stamps in question. May be some help in solving the issue.
My initial thoughts are that they are merely scissor cut as the imperforate issues would be cut all round (and are quite rare).
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02:33:46pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
I stand to be corrected, but...I believe most/all Canadian sheets of stamps (typically 25/50/100) have selvedge around them, hence the source of corner plate/imprint blocks - and therefore no straight edges on the actual stamps.
A straight edge on the top and bottom - or left and right - would be a coil stamp (not from a booklet/sheet).
Booklets come in varying rows/columns and may include both stamps and labels. Depending on the configuration of the booklet the straight edges would have the following variations: top only, bottom only, left only, right only - and at the corners: left/top, left/bottom, right/top, right bottom.
I've just recently started to create some album pages to "recreate" the booklet straight-edge positions. Kind of fun to keep an eye out for them.
P.S. Some booklet stamps may have no straight edge (i..e. coming from the middle of a row/column) and can usually be recognized by the perforations being different for booklet vs regular-issue stamps. I only discovered this recently tracking down some booklet stamps for "Harvey".
Sorry I don't have time to post some images - maybe tomorrow if I get a chance.
Dave.
Edit Added: My Unitrade catalogue shows booklet stamps going all the way back to George V - I keep my eye out for these for "Opa".
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Nov 2021
02:40:41pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
I just saw this thread and was about to respond...until I read David's post. He has everything dead on.
Note to Holocaust Stamps: I am about half finished putting together a box of stuff for you. It's about time!!! Never put off 'til tomorrow what can be put off until the next day!
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03:08:05pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Joe/Harvey: My post was also a reminder for me to look for the last 3-4 booklet stamps you need then get them in the mail before Christmas!
Dave.
P.S. To Management Team: Hope you are ok with this PDA - we are Canadians after all...
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Stamps were printed in sheets of 400 stamps. Then these cut into sheets of 100 stamps. This resulted in the sheet having two straight edges.
A sheet of 100 would have either a left side and bottom with straight edges or
right side and bottom having straight edges, or
left side and top side with straight edges or
right side and top edge with straight edges.
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re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Scan of 1c to 3c which were available as panes or booklets of 4 to 6 stamps.
A scan of 5c to 20c having 1 straight edge - these were not sold as booklets. I also have some (not shown) of these have 2 adjacent straight edges.
Unitrade Canada catalogue shows the booklet panes when available.
After looking at the 5c-20c stamps with straight edge I realized the sheets must be cut into panes as d1stamper described, each pane of 100 having 2 straight edges and 2 selvedge edges. I think that later in Queen Elizabeth II time panes started being printed with selvedge all around as Holocauststamps described, especially as the panes got smaller. Someone in Stamporama-land likely knows more about that. I haven't had much to do with full sheet panes. (back pains yes, stamp panes not so much).
So, my question was how to tell a booklet stamp with a straight edge from a straight edge stamp from the cut edge of a pane of 100. It looks as though once a single booklet stamp is separated from its parent booklet it will look the same as the stamp from the post office pane of 100.
Later on when retail panes started having selvedge all around, this was no longer a problem. I was recently making album pages for more recent issues where only the booklet stamps had straight edges, which is likely why the question came to me while filling pages for George V.
I think I'm starting to understand this. Thanks for all your comments as I sort this out.
Now, if I could only a penny black or a 3 penny beaver with 4 straight edges hidden in some of those old albums!
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Glad you have it sorted to your satisfaction. I assumed, wrongly, that when you were mentioning high value you meant the 50c and $1 pictorial stamps.
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this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Nov 2021
05:13:52pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
I have nothing to do with full sheets of stamps, the only full sheet I have for Canada is #610 (The Korny Krieghoff stamp) because of it's many errors. I looked at that sheet and it has selvage around all four sides, hence no stamps with straight sides. I know(?) it comes from a larger sheet of four normal sheets. If one of these large sheets were not separated we would have gutter pairs, which is why gutter pairs exist ( I think ). How were earlier stamps done? Does anyone out there have a full sheet they can show us that has stamps with one or two flat sides? My gut tells me most of the stamps with flat sides come from booklet panes! Are booklet panes printed separately or are they cut from larger sheets of booklet panes?
Edit: I just noticed in the Unitrade Canada Specialized there is an excellent picture of how sheets of booklet panes are set up and how you can get tete-beche pairs of the 1928 George V series. If you have the 2015 edition it's on page 92 - check it out! I don't have a working camera or scanner but it would be great if someone posted the picture!
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04 Nov 2021
07:10:06pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Many Canadian stamps until the mid-1930s were printed in sheets of 400 (200 for large format high values) and cut into panes of 100 (or 50). These earlier sheets were not perforated in the "gutters" where the vertical and horizontal cuts were made and therefore the stamps along the inside vertical and horizontal rows were "natural straight edges" (the "natural" nomenclature is used in the trade to distinguish a straight edge that is not the result of damage).
Here are some samples:
And here are a couple of booklet panes of the same period:
Unless there was a difference in printing the sheet stock and the booklet stock (i.e. flat plate or rotary) I do not think there would be any way to differentiate straight edges from sheets versus straight edges from booklet panes, for the values that are available in booklet panes.
You will note that the airmail stamp is part of the the Arch and Maple Leaf issue of 1930. I believe it is the last issue to be cut with straight edges this way. I do not believe that the Next "Medallion" issue has any straight edges in the sheet stock. But if someone finds a #201 (13c purple Quebec Citadel) with a straight edge, I will stand corrected. I will check some stock later in the week to see if I see one. By this time, the large sheets were designed with perforated gutters and the cut was made between perforations, leaving selvage all around the panes of 50 or 100.
Roy
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Approvals
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Thank you Roy, nice to see the examples. Wonder how many have been thrown away in the belief that they were damaged by being cut.
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04 Nov 2021
09:01:27pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
I neglected to mention that there was a return to straight edges on two sides of panes (sheets of 200, panes of 50) of many commemorative issues of the late 1960s into 1970.
It appears they are all issues printed by the British American Banknote Company.
Scott / Unitrade numbers that come to mind are:
482 Nonsuch
483 Lacrosse
484 Brown
493,
494 (Alcock and Brown 15c)
495 Osler
499 Charlottetown
504 Leacock
507 UN Biology
512 Kelsey
and several others after
It seems they are all engraved issues. The Lithographed issues seemed to be spared the straight edge treatment.
I recall these met with significant collector disapproval.
Roy
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re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Not all coil-looking stamps are such. Here are 4 booklet panes with row of the stamps that mimic a coil! Just keeps us all on our toes!
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this post
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Thanks Roy and BrightonPete for that information and pictures.
Now I have a better idea of where I can ignore the 'single with straight edge' listed in the Unitrade catalogue when making album pages, at least for some issues. And I thought I had all these special stamps,Ha ha
I thought Unitrade would have this info but couldn't find anything. It seems like basic information that should be there.
Stamporama is like the Encyclopedia Britannica for stamps!
Brian
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like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Sheepshanks, by high values I meant relative to the regular values for letters etc. I was thinking too of the centennial definitives where the 8c was a large format high value when issued that soon was overtaken by inflation and 8c was 1st class letters, and then it went on and on
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
05 Nov 2021
11:18:39am
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Speaking of the Centennial issue, the 6c is one of those BABNC printings that included straight edges:
Roy
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re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Well, I'll just have to sort as best I can and be careful of those straight edges. By the way I just came to #201 and it is behaving itself very well, perfs all around
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
05 Nov 2021
03:53:28pm
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Just a coincidence, but Uchaos just put the 1927 Canada Confederation series on auction and two of the stamps have straight edges. I was tempted but with all the other things I collect I really don't want to start collecting "Canada stamps with straight edges". Someone out there might want to though!
Edit: I just noticed in the Unitrade Canada Specialized there is an excellent picture of how sheets of booklet panes are set up and how you can get tete-beche pairs of the 1928 George V series. If you have the 2015 edition it's on page 92 - check it out! I don't have a working camera or scanner but it would be great if someone posted the picture!
Login to Like
this post
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Just a follow-up to my straight edges.
As I got to my George VI and QE2 stamps I have tried making places for the identifiable booklet stamps. Here is the page I made for booklet stamps of Elizabeth II 1954 Wilding definitives.
And this is what I found in my pile to populate the page.
Interesting for where the booklet (or miniature pane) stamps can be identified somehow.
Brian
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Login to Like.
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Nov 2021
07:29:11am
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Is there any way to identify the central stamps?
Edit: With some of the newer stamps I think different perfs were often used with panes of stamps. I've found this out the hard way trying to fill some gaps in my album for newer stamps!
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Feb 2022
07:40:08am
re: Canadian stamps with straight edge
Just one minor note.
While all the above may be true for Canada's stamps, other countries may create coils and booklet panes in large sheets that are cut using a tool that usually will pass right though the center of a row of perforations. Machins are usually done that way and on close examination the perforations cut that way are sharply and evenly cut.
Thus Machin coils will have two opposite perf edges that are rough from being torn apart and the other pair of opposite edges that were obviously cut. Sheet stamps are torn all around, Booklet stamps may have one or two adjacent perfed edges that were cut and look like the battlements of a castle.
Such stamps are identified as TCTC, vertical coils, or CTCT, horizontal coils, with the first letter referring to the top edge.
Booklet stamps can be TCTT, TCCT, TTCC, and TTTC, again starting clockwise rom the stamp's top edge.
Several other nations do it that way, Dutch and Danish, I think.
And naturally Sheet stamps are TTTT.
Machins cut through a non-perforated gutter use the letter "I" for imperforated edges; TITT, TIIT, TTII, and TTTL, for those who care about things like that,
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