Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I came across two single used examples (which appear to have been a pair or were used side-by-side as two singles) among an envelope of mixed 2d used examples. The phosphor tagging, instead of being two bars one on either side of the stamp, appears to be one wide bar covering the whole of the left half of each stamp. A third single example appears to show the same misplacement, although to my eye is slightly less clear. They appear to be ex-sheet rather than coil, since there is no evidence of a cut edge, and unless I am not seeing clearly, the tagging is not a normal single centre bar as is the case for the coil issue.
Unless I am failing to read the Deegam catalogue correctly or thoroughly (which is quite possible), I do not find this variety listed. Two scans are attached. The date of the CDS cancel on the first (pair) appears to be June 4, 1971; in the second instance the partial slogan cancel appears to advertise something in 1971.
J. T. Hurd.
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Could you confirm that the dull areas do actually react to UV light?
Edit, also how far into the left margin of the right hand of the pair the phosphor band extends. ie, does it cover all the perfs and into the left stamp or does it stop before the margin?
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12:33:45am
If you can see the phosphor band's edges clearly, what is the width ?`
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You may have a 2B where the band that is supposed to straddle the perfs has shifted if you see a "wide" band.
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04:10:20pm
".... the band that is supposed to straddle the
perfs has shifted if you see a "wide" band. ...."
In the deegam Handbook, among the pages devoted
to the 1p and 2p, at the end of the lists, among
the numbered notes there is a drawing of exactly
that. Or four individual illustrations showing
the possibilities.
I think that I read somewhere in volume one of
the handbook that in rare instances either the
coils, or the booklet rolls are, or have been,
broken apart manually. If I can find that sentence
or paragraph I'll have the page number.
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This from the Hampstead Castle website, link below. The right hand column has retail price in pounds sterling.
U6 2d 2B PVA T2 1969 Cyl 5,6 .15
U6a Missing Phosphor 1969 Cyl 5,6 1.50
U6b Broad Band Right 1969 Vt. Coil 50.00
u6U Ex Coil 250 Scr 1969 Vt. Coil 8.00
u6US Ex Coil 150 Scr 1969 Vt. Coil 70.00
u6H Ex Coil 250 Scr 1969 Hz. Coil 5.00
http://www.machin-stamp.co.uk/
Really need you to confirm on the UV reaction.
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Thank you for the helpful observations and questions. I have much to learn -- especially about using my UV light and the reactions for which I should be looking. I find under the UV light no afterglow after having exposed the stamp to the light for several seconds.
Apart from the UV light, in a close examination under the magnifying glass with the naked eye, I notice that in the lower white margin the white border is "pebbled", and the pebbling effect extends from the half-way point of the stamp to half-way into the left margin of the stamp but not to the left hand perfs. This is consistent on each of the three examples shown in the scan. My best measurement is that the pebbling is 9 mm wide.
I have a mint example of what I believe to be the normal horizontal coil strip of 5 (SG Concise #725m) which includes a pair of the 2d each with a single centre band tag (and which after exposure to the UV light for a few seconds has a brief, clear bright after glow) -- but it does not appear to show any of the pebbling in either the upper or lower margin which is noticeable on my three used examples.
I am wondering therefore if the examples I have scanned which appear to the naked eye to have a phosphor band over the left half of the stamp are instead covered with some sort of a "varnish".
From the very helpful listing and link to the Hampstead site, I notice that the variety of the broad band is on the right of the stamp, rather than the left and that it originates with the vertical coil. Does anyone have a scan of an example of such, or of simply a vertical coil?
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In my experience, the luminescent reactions on the USED pre-decimal (checked with long wave and short wave) can be almost non-existent from what I have seen. You then try want to look for the residue varnish from phosphor application.
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There is a coil strip for sale on ebay.https://www.ebay.com/itm/324739786226
The vertical edges are cut whereas the ones on your images look torn.
Below are your two stamps in greyscale enhanced to show the dull areas. Using your uv lamp do the top and bottom margins look bright or dull, and on which part ?
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Thank you for your further responses, and especially for the grey scale enlargement which certainly shows the difference between the left and right halves of each stamp. The edges right and left do appear torn as opposed to cut.
Under UV light the margins of the stamps appear bright, generally, but there is no afterglow anywhere.
Thank you also for the link to the vertical coil, which appears to have the usual two side bars of tagging.
JTH
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When I check my centre band and 2 band copies with 254nm uv I get a dark patch in the margin where the phosphor band crosses from the design to the perfs.
There is hardly an afterglow even when the light is on for a minute or more. As Angore says, used stamps that have been soaked lose much of their phosphorescence.
Maybe email one of the Machin sites with an image and description, giving measurements and asking for comments.
Sorry not to be of more help.
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07:00:21pm
".... In my experience, the luminescent reactions
on the USED pre-decimal (checked with long wave
and short wave) can be almost non-existent ...."
Machins started in 1967. I started collecting them
by 1970. Decimalizations came in 1971.
Somewhere during the late 1980s or early 1990s I
discovered a note in the then thin printed Complete
Deegam Machin Handbook explaining that dampness or
soaking, especially in warm to hot water would erase
or dissolve the phosphors being used by Royal Mail.
My pleasure at learning why I often had difficulty
seeing the phosphor bands or bars on the barrels of
close cut on paper Machins that I had so diligently,
carefully soaked, washed and rinsed was actually at
cross purposes with my intent.
So I generally gave up on using a long or short wave
light and began to pay attention to the many secret
marks on the face of the stamps.
That is about when I read the entire CDMH Volume I
from cover to cover and began to learn a bit bout
both Machins as well as stamp production in general..
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The images are not very clear to me but this can explain my theory.
This is an image from Deegam showing the phosphor strip that leaves normal left and right bands. These bands have been improperly located (left or right)just like perforations. If the entire phosphor band is on the stamp it is around 8 to 9mm wide depending on issue.
There are dealers (google) that sell GB Machins with phosphor oddities (variety, error, etc).
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Angore, I can understand what you are getting at but that does not seem to be what the op is seeing.
Bearing in mind that the stamps are now 50 years old and that we see three of them, I find it strange that no others appear to have been reported. (sheet would have been of 240?)
My initial thought when seeing the images was that it was an adhesive tape mark, but if the first stamps are a joined or undisturbed pair, the date stamp looks continuous, then it would need two lengths of tape, not impossible, but is it likely?
If they were soaked in water hot enough to remove the tape then this could have also removed or diluted the phosphor enough to evade detection, unless a very powerful uv lamp is used for quite a period.
Short of sending the stamps to an expert I have no explanation, except that they are really the centre band issue but with some type of residue, varnish, tape glue or something similar.
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09:12:16am
Have you taken an accurate measurement of the distance
between the right edge of the "band " of the right
stamp to the right edge of the "band" of the left stamp?
Since the Machins are just about 2.1 cm wide that should
be what you get. The bands should be 9mm (0.9cm) wide and
the space between the bands would then be 1.2cm. (12mm)
The distance between the left edges of the bands ought to
be the same.
Iy eyes can't make out the edges myself.
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I looked at Deegam. A 2B phosphor shift would leave a 9.5mm wide band if shifted over the stamp. The pebbling is likely the phosphor screen that was 150 dpi on one 2d Deegam type. Thid type was available as sheet and coil. The other 2 types had a finer 250 dpi screen.
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Can anyone shed light from experience on misplaced phosphor bands on the 2d pre-decimal Machin (narrow-spaced numeral placement)?
I came across two single used examples (which appear to have been a pair or were used side-by-side as two singles) among an envelope of mixed 2d used examples. The phosphor tagging, instead of being two bars one on either side of the stamp, appears to be one wide bar covering the whole of the left half of each stamp. A third single example appears to show the same misplacement, although to my eye is slightly less clear. They appear to be ex-sheet rather than coil, since there is no evidence of a cut edge, and unless I am not seeing clearly, the tagging is not a normal single centre bar as is the case for the coil issue.
Unless I am failing to read the Deegam catalogue correctly or thoroughly (which is quite possible), I do not find this variety listed. Two scans are attached. The date of the CDS cancel on the first (pair) appears to be June 4, 1971; in the second instance the partial slogan cancel appears to advertise something in 1971.
J. T. Hurd.
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this post
Approvals
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
Could you confirm that the dull areas do actually react to UV light?
Edit, also how far into the left margin of the right hand of the pair the phosphor band extends. ie, does it cover all the perfs and into the left stamp or does it stop before the margin?
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
13 Dec 2021
12:33:45am
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
If you can see the phosphor band's edges clearly, what is the width ?`
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this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
You may have a 2B where the band that is supposed to straddle the perfs has shifted if you see a "wide" band.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
13 Dec 2021
04:10:20pm
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
".... the band that is supposed to straddle the
perfs has shifted if you see a "wide" band. ...."
In the deegam Handbook, among the pages devoted
to the 1p and 2p, at the end of the lists, among
the numbered notes there is a drawing of exactly
that. Or four individual illustrations showing
the possibilities.
I think that I read somewhere in volume one of
the handbook that in rare instances either the
coils, or the booklet rolls are, or have been,
broken apart manually. If I can find that sentence
or paragraph I'll have the page number.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
This from the Hampstead Castle website, link below. The right hand column has retail price in pounds sterling.
U6 2d 2B PVA T2 1969 Cyl 5,6 .15
U6a Missing Phosphor 1969 Cyl 5,6 1.50
U6b Broad Band Right 1969 Vt. Coil 50.00
u6U Ex Coil 250 Scr 1969 Vt. Coil 8.00
u6US Ex Coil 150 Scr 1969 Vt. Coil 70.00
u6H Ex Coil 250 Scr 1969 Hz. Coil 5.00
http://www.machin-stamp.co.uk/
Really need you to confirm on the UV reaction.
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
Thank you for the helpful observations and questions. I have much to learn -- especially about using my UV light and the reactions for which I should be looking. I find under the UV light no afterglow after having exposed the stamp to the light for several seconds.
Apart from the UV light, in a close examination under the magnifying glass with the naked eye, I notice that in the lower white margin the white border is "pebbled", and the pebbling effect extends from the half-way point of the stamp to half-way into the left margin of the stamp but not to the left hand perfs. This is consistent on each of the three examples shown in the scan. My best measurement is that the pebbling is 9 mm wide.
I have a mint example of what I believe to be the normal horizontal coil strip of 5 (SG Concise #725m) which includes a pair of the 2d each with a single centre band tag (and which after exposure to the UV light for a few seconds has a brief, clear bright after glow) -- but it does not appear to show any of the pebbling in either the upper or lower margin which is noticeable on my three used examples.
I am wondering therefore if the examples I have scanned which appear to the naked eye to have a phosphor band over the left half of the stamp are instead covered with some sort of a "varnish".
From the very helpful listing and link to the Hampstead site, I notice that the variety of the broad band is on the right of the stamp, rather than the left and that it originates with the vertical coil. Does anyone have a scan of an example of such, or of simply a vertical coil?
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
In my experience, the luminescent reactions on the USED pre-decimal (checked with long wave and short wave) can be almost non-existent from what I have seen. You then try want to look for the residue varnish from phosphor application.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
There is a coil strip for sale on ebay.https://www.ebay.com/itm/324739786226
The vertical edges are cut whereas the ones on your images look torn.
Below are your two stamps in greyscale enhanced to show the dull areas. Using your uv lamp do the top and bottom margins look bright or dull, and on which part ?
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
Thank you for your further responses, and especially for the grey scale enlargement which certainly shows the difference between the left and right halves of each stamp. The edges right and left do appear torn as opposed to cut.
Under UV light the margins of the stamps appear bright, generally, but there is no afterglow anywhere.
Thank you also for the link to the vertical coil, which appears to have the usual two side bars of tagging.
JTH
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
When I check my centre band and 2 band copies with 254nm uv I get a dark patch in the margin where the phosphor band crosses from the design to the perfs.
There is hardly an afterglow even when the light is on for a minute or more. As Angore says, used stamps that have been soaked lose much of their phosphorescence.
Maybe email one of the Machin sites with an image and description, giving measurements and asking for comments.
Sorry not to be of more help.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2021
07:00:21pm
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
".... In my experience, the luminescent reactions
on the USED pre-decimal (checked with long wave
and short wave) can be almost non-existent ...."
Machins started in 1967. I started collecting them
by 1970. Decimalizations came in 1971.
Somewhere during the late 1980s or early 1990s I
discovered a note in the then thin printed Complete
Deegam Machin Handbook explaining that dampness or
soaking, especially in warm to hot water would erase
or dissolve the phosphors being used by Royal Mail.
My pleasure at learning why I often had difficulty
seeing the phosphor bands or bars on the barrels of
close cut on paper Machins that I had so diligently,
carefully soaked, washed and rinsed was actually at
cross purposes with my intent.
So I generally gave up on using a long or short wave
light and began to pay attention to the many secret
marks on the face of the stamps.
That is about when I read the entire CDMH Volume I
from cover to cover and began to learn a bit bout
both Machins as well as stamp production in general..
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
The images are not very clear to me but this can explain my theory.
This is an image from Deegam showing the phosphor strip that leaves normal left and right bands. These bands have been improperly located (left or right)just like perforations. If the entire phosphor band is on the stamp it is around 8 to 9mm wide depending on issue.
There are dealers (google) that sell GB Machins with phosphor oddities (variety, error, etc).
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
Angore, I can understand what you are getting at but that does not seem to be what the op is seeing.
Bearing in mind that the stamps are now 50 years old and that we see three of them, I find it strange that no others appear to have been reported. (sheet would have been of 240?)
My initial thought when seeing the images was that it was an adhesive tape mark, but if the first stamps are a joined or undisturbed pair, the date stamp looks continuous, then it would need two lengths of tape, not impossible, but is it likely?
If they were soaked in water hot enough to remove the tape then this could have also removed or diluted the phosphor enough to evade detection, unless a very powerful uv lamp is used for quite a period.
Short of sending the stamps to an expert I have no explanation, except that they are really the centre band issue but with some type of residue, varnish, tape glue or something similar.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Dec 2021
09:12:16am
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
Have you taken an accurate measurement of the distance
between the right edge of the "band " of the right
stamp to the right edge of the "band" of the left stamp?
Since the Machins are just about 2.1 cm wide that should
be what you get. The bands should be 9mm (0.9cm) wide and
the space between the bands would then be 1.2cm. (12mm)
The distance between the left edges of the bands ought to
be the same.
Iy eyes can't make out the edges myself.
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin 2d pre-decimal phosphor variety?
I looked at Deegam. A 2B phosphor shift would leave a 9.5mm wide band if shifted over the stamp. The pebbling is likely the phosphor screen that was 150 dpi on one 2d Deegam type. Thid type was available as sheet and coil. The other 2 types had a finer 250 dpi screen.
Login to Like
this post