Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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12:52:18pm
I have been an antique collector and dealer for most of my life so I have always had to consider value when buying or selling. Even though I mainly use CV's as a guide to comparative values of objects I guess using it is a habit with me!
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I use catalogue value as a guide when pricing items for sale.
Every catalogue producer (Whether on or off line) can have a different "price" for the same item. This makes it difficult to determine a stamps "value" whether as a collector or seller.
Scotts may value an item at $1.00 and Gibbons might value the same item at £1.00. The seller then has to decide whether the exchange rate of £1.00 to $1.35 comes into play. Should the sellers price be $1.35 or $1.00 or what percentage of either.
Basically the seller has to decide what they are willing to accept for the item and the buyer has to decide what they are willing to pay for the item. As we are all humans(?) there are bound to be differences of opinion!
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Harvey, when i was growing up..our local city Hudson, N.Y. had 20 some bars...it was a working mans town with cement mills and many displaced persons in the labor field after WW2. Now in the last 20 years it seems New York City has discovered Hudson..a two hour train ride straight up the river. So now most of the bars have been replaced by antique shops, there must be 2 dozen on Warren Street the main drag. The locals complain that they can not afford to eat lunch out anymore as prices have become upscale.
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Catalog values are often pretty meaningless. Leaving the really old and rare stamps aside, the rest are cataloged in a very inconsistent way.
Here is just one example:
1973 Hong-Kong - 1,992,500 copies printed; cataloged at $6.00 used or min in StampWorld
1970 Bulgaria - 220,000 copies printed; cataloged at $2.00 mint and only $0.75 used.
Which one will be harder to find? We can all guess the answer.
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07:58:33pm
Over my lifetime, I watched a section of Brooklyn that had been nice tidy well kept homes graduate into, more or less, a slum and then, since property had become so inexpensive, the old houses were torn down and replaced by town houses and stores became "boutiques," and eateries somewhat upscale cafes and such. family picnics, became unsafe after dark, and dangerous in daylight.
Recently one of my cousins commented in a letter about how much better the park has become in the last ten or twenty years. Her complaint now is that when she inherited the three story brownstone on my uncle's passing, she could not get a buyer to bid a decent price
and now there is a half million dollar ++ appraisal and she will likely have to pay a large capital gains tax if she sells it. When she sells it.
" ... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. ..."
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I'm sure most of us often think of catalogue values being far too high for the number of that issue for sale on the market. Funny enough you can find the reverse. If a 'common' low catalogue value stamp seems to be missing from online or local market supply, it could mean it's a bit rarer than the catalogue price indicates. I'm looking for 2010 Thai stamp which is an overprint and priced in the local catalogue at 30 cents used and not much more mint. On Saturday looking around the local dealers at the stamp fair, nobody had one.
Of course a good way to judge this is to look at the number printed. In the case above only 188,100 are recorded as being so. This compares to another similar overprint of 2 years previously of which 9.2M were printed. This one has half of the others price used and almost the same price mint.
Sometimes even the number printed can fool us because we don't know how many of that number went on sale and if any were withdrawn. This is especially true of earlier issues. An example would be an overprint which is often mislabeled on eBay, the 1895 10 att overprint of a 24 att stamp (Scott 49). 500,040 stamps were overprinted. The local catalogue price for this stamp is about $12 mint and $3 used. In 1899 the 24 att stamp was again overprinted 10 att (Scott 64). This time 120,000 were overprinted. In my local catalogue (2014) this is priced at about $454 mint and $757 used. If it were to be judged on printing numbers we could expect the 1899 stamp to be worth 4 times the 1895 issue, instead it is 38 times the price. In this case the used price being more than the mint gives the game away a bit. The 1899 collectors did pick up their mint copies, but very few stamps made it into use. We have to guess the stamp was withdrawn quite quickly. (I did use to know the story but it escaped from my memory banks right now and my reference book on the Thai oddities is missing. I will find where I put it sometime.)
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09:44:49pm
" ....Of course a good way to judge this is to look at the number printed. ...."
And even that may be deceptive. Royal Mail printed and sold the Machin values in a large number. You will have to search high and low to find it on the regular stamp market, And if you do find a used example it has somewhat high catalog value. The problem is that the printing was in rolls of 10,000 and only sold to mass marketers who used it on some kind of advertising. Most people who received the mailing simply tossed it in the nearest trash bin. Very few were saved used and even less mint. Few were available to the general public for regular usage envelopes..
I happen to have such an envelope here that carried a letter from Doug Myall himself. In his note he mentions the stamp he used and prompted me to save it intact.m Apparently he acquired a strip for study and was using the extras on his mailings to his correspondents..
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Catalog values aren't too terribly important to me when I'm buying as I have a pretty good handle on the small area I focus on and the relative values of the stamps. Or at least I think I do. They do come a bit more into play if I'm selling off duplicates or making a trade, particularly if the items are tough to find, and I make no apologies for listing certain items in the neighborhood of their respective catalog values, taking condition and eye-appeal into consideration, of course. Scott is not the catalog I use as it simply doesn't come close to covering all of the printings.
That said, it is important to me to have a "value" on my collection should it need to be sold (and to be insured properly). I even have a very short list of dealers and auction houses to sell it through in my estate planning documents as they are the most qualified to handle the material and have the right audience for it.
In my focus area, there are the "major" varieties, and the "minor" varieties. The major varieties were identified long-ago, have been cataloged for a hundred years or more, and are thus widely-recognized and tend to command pretty good prices and are listed in Scott. The minor varieties are often just as challenging, are not listed in Scott, but are listed in AFA and/or Facit -- they don't "get the love" and are very "undervalued" due to the low demand for them, though a couple have been picking up steam. As mentioned in a previous post, some of the "cheap" stamps are really hard to find in great condition!!
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There are other sources of information that can be used to determine value if you are willing to put in the time and effort.
Namely other philatelic companies price lists and auction catalogue results.
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In a few months, Scott will begin releasing its 2023 Catalogues in the year 2022, using data that was collected in 2021. Catalogue values are out of date even before the catalogues are published.
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Here is a scan of Guatemala C69 the high value of a 1937 airmail set. There was a total of 10,000 of these issued and yet with an active Guatemala collecting society and worldwide collectors who collect to completion...this stamp is not hard to find at 7 dollars unused and $4.00 used.
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South and Central America is indeed another under rated region.
There are probably at least two things going on.
1. Not as many people collect Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia or Venezuela, as those collecting Britain, France, USA, Australia, Germany, etc.
2. Once an item catalogs well, more collectors or dealers are interested to have it or stock up on it
3. Usually Michel will catalog German stamps high, Yvert will list French stamps and colonies high, Scott will list the British commonwealth high....Is there a Spanish or Portugese stamp catalog? I have not heard of one.
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"Scott will list the British commonwealth high."
Are you suggesting by inference that the United States are still a British Colony?
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I meant Gibbons. Sorry Ian, names are jumping off my head now and then.
Good to see your illustrations reminding me of the sad state of affairs. 
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Jules you should really stop partaking of the old Hudson's Bay Overproof Rum.
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"Not that long ago i don't know if it was just myself or were most collectors very concerned with catalog value. It has dawned on me in my infinite wisdom that i am doing this thing for me (what a selfish thought). It seems more enjoyable now."
I think the original post was about enjoying stamps for what they are and not about financial aspects of the collection. I interpret catalog obsession as value obsession.
There are those that just collect for fun but do they have some finite goal? Enjoy the ride or is there a destination?
Then there are that live their life by how much they paid (the bargain or paying whatever it takes).
If someone is an organized collector (such as completing a collection based upon some catalog listing) then what you pay to complete the collector will likely come into play since it requires getting specific material to complete the collection.
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I am definitely into collecting for the joy of the ride, as you say. But having said that part of the fun is seeing the total catalog value of each country increase as I process the new stamps.
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Not that long ago i don't know if it was just myself or were most collectors very concerned with catalog value. It has dawned on me in my infinite wisdom that i am doing this thing for me (what a selfish thought). It seems more enjoyable now.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Dec 2021
12:52:18pm
re: catalog value obsession ?
I have been an antique collector and dealer for most of my life so I have always had to consider value when buying or selling. Even though I mainly use CV's as a guide to comparative values of objects I guess using it is a habit with me!
Login to Like
this post
01:46:39pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: catalog value obsession ?
I use catalogue value as a guide when pricing items for sale.
Every catalogue producer (Whether on or off line) can have a different "price" for the same item. This makes it difficult to determine a stamps "value" whether as a collector or seller.
Scotts may value an item at $1.00 and Gibbons might value the same item at £1.00. The seller then has to decide whether the exchange rate of £1.00 to $1.35 comes into play. Should the sellers price be $1.35 or $1.00 or what percentage of either.
Basically the seller has to decide what they are willing to accept for the item and the buyer has to decide what they are willing to pay for the item. As we are all humans(?) there are bound to be differences of opinion!
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: catalog value obsession ?
Harvey, when i was growing up..our local city Hudson, N.Y. had 20 some bars...it was a working mans town with cement mills and many displaced persons in the labor field after WW2. Now in the last 20 years it seems New York City has discovered Hudson..a two hour train ride straight up the river. So now most of the bars have been replaced by antique shops, there must be 2 dozen on Warren Street the main drag. The locals complain that they can not afford to eat lunch out anymore as prices have become upscale.
Login to Like
this post
re: catalog value obsession ?
Catalog values are often pretty meaningless. Leaving the really old and rare stamps aside, the rest are cataloged in a very inconsistent way.
Here is just one example:
1973 Hong-Kong - 1,992,500 copies printed; cataloged at $6.00 used or min in StampWorld
1970 Bulgaria - 220,000 copies printed; cataloged at $2.00 mint and only $0.75 used.
Which one will be harder to find? We can all guess the answer.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Dec 2021
07:58:33pm
re: catalog value obsession ?
Over my lifetime, I watched a section of Brooklyn that had been nice tidy well kept homes graduate into, more or less, a slum and then, since property had become so inexpensive, the old houses were torn down and replaced by town houses and stores became "boutiques," and eateries somewhat upscale cafes and such. family picnics, became unsafe after dark, and dangerous in daylight.
Recently one of my cousins commented in a letter about how much better the park has become in the last ten or twenty years. Her complaint now is that when she inherited the three story brownstone on my uncle's passing, she could not get a buyer to bid a decent price
and now there is a half million dollar ++ appraisal and she will likely have to pay a large capital gains tax if she sells it. When she sells it.
" ... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. ..."
Login to Like
this post
re: catalog value obsession ?
I'm sure most of us often think of catalogue values being far too high for the number of that issue for sale on the market. Funny enough you can find the reverse. If a 'common' low catalogue value stamp seems to be missing from online or local market supply, it could mean it's a bit rarer than the catalogue price indicates. I'm looking for 2010 Thai stamp which is an overprint and priced in the local catalogue at 30 cents used and not much more mint. On Saturday looking around the local dealers at the stamp fair, nobody had one.
Of course a good way to judge this is to look at the number printed. In the case above only 188,100 are recorded as being so. This compares to another similar overprint of 2 years previously of which 9.2M were printed. This one has half of the others price used and almost the same price mint.
Sometimes even the number printed can fool us because we don't know how many of that number went on sale and if any were withdrawn. This is especially true of earlier issues. An example would be an overprint which is often mislabeled on eBay, the 1895 10 att overprint of a 24 att stamp (Scott 49). 500,040 stamps were overprinted. The local catalogue price for this stamp is about $12 mint and $3 used. In 1899 the 24 att stamp was again overprinted 10 att (Scott 64). This time 120,000 were overprinted. In my local catalogue (2014) this is priced at about $454 mint and $757 used. If it were to be judged on printing numbers we could expect the 1899 stamp to be worth 4 times the 1895 issue, instead it is 38 times the price. In this case the used price being more than the mint gives the game away a bit. The 1899 collectors did pick up their mint copies, but very few stamps made it into use. We have to guess the stamp was withdrawn quite quickly. (I did use to know the story but it escaped from my memory banks right now and my reference book on the Thai oddities is missing. I will find where I put it sometime.)
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Dec 2021
09:44:49pm
re: catalog value obsession ?
" ....Of course a good way to judge this is to look at the number printed. ...."
And even that may be deceptive. Royal Mail printed and sold the Machin values in a large number. You will have to search high and low to find it on the regular stamp market, And if you do find a used example it has somewhat high catalog value. The problem is that the printing was in rolls of 10,000 and only sold to mass marketers who used it on some kind of advertising. Most people who received the mailing simply tossed it in the nearest trash bin. Very few were saved used and even less mint. Few were available to the general public for regular usage envelopes..
I happen to have such an envelope here that carried a letter from Doug Myall himself. In his note he mentions the stamp he used and prompted me to save it intact.m Apparently he acquired a strip for study and was using the extras on his mailings to his correspondents..
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re: catalog value obsession ?
Catalog values aren't too terribly important to me when I'm buying as I have a pretty good handle on the small area I focus on and the relative values of the stamps. Or at least I think I do. They do come a bit more into play if I'm selling off duplicates or making a trade, particularly if the items are tough to find, and I make no apologies for listing certain items in the neighborhood of their respective catalog values, taking condition and eye-appeal into consideration, of course. Scott is not the catalog I use as it simply doesn't come close to covering all of the printings.
That said, it is important to me to have a "value" on my collection should it need to be sold (and to be insured properly). I even have a very short list of dealers and auction houses to sell it through in my estate planning documents as they are the most qualified to handle the material and have the right audience for it.
In my focus area, there are the "major" varieties, and the "minor" varieties. The major varieties were identified long-ago, have been cataloged for a hundred years or more, and are thus widely-recognized and tend to command pretty good prices and are listed in Scott. The minor varieties are often just as challenging, are not listed in Scott, but are listed in AFA and/or Facit -- they don't "get the love" and are very "undervalued" due to the low demand for them, though a couple have been picking up steam. As mentioned in a previous post, some of the "cheap" stamps are really hard to find in great condition!!
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05:14:34am
Auctions - Approvals
re: catalog value obsession ?
There are other sources of information that can be used to determine value if you are willing to put in the time and effort.
Namely other philatelic companies price lists and auction catalogue results.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
10:02:05am
re: catalog value obsession ?
In a few months, Scott will begin releasing its 2023 Catalogues in the year 2022, using data that was collected in 2021. Catalogue values are out of date even before the catalogues are published.
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this post
Auctions
re: catalog value obsession ?
Here is a scan of Guatemala C69 the high value of a 1937 airmail set. There was a total of 10,000 of these issued and yet with an active Guatemala collecting society and worldwide collectors who collect to completion...this stamp is not hard to find at 7 dollars unused and $4.00 used.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: catalog value obsession ?
South and Central America is indeed another under rated region.
There are probably at least two things going on.
1. Not as many people collect Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia or Venezuela, as those collecting Britain, France, USA, Australia, Germany, etc.
2. Once an item catalogs well, more collectors or dealers are interested to have it or stock up on it
3. Usually Michel will catalog German stamps high, Yvert will list French stamps and colonies high, Scott will list the British commonwealth high....Is there a Spanish or Portugese stamp catalog? I have not heard of one.
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02:26:40pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: catalog value obsession ?
"Scott will list the British commonwealth high."
Are you suggesting by inference that the United States are still a British Colony?
2 Members
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re: catalog value obsession ?
I meant Gibbons. Sorry Ian, names are jumping off my head now and then.
Good to see your illustrations reminding me of the sad state of affairs.
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03:22:07pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: catalog value obsession ?
Jules you should really stop partaking of the old Hudson's Bay Overproof Rum.
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this post
re: catalog value obsession ?
"Not that long ago i don't know if it was just myself or were most collectors very concerned with catalog value. It has dawned on me in my infinite wisdom that i am doing this thing for me (what a selfish thought). It seems more enjoyable now."
I think the original post was about enjoying stamps for what they are and not about financial aspects of the collection. I interpret catalog obsession as value obsession.
There are those that just collect for fun but do they have some finite goal? Enjoy the ride or is there a destination?
Then there are that live their life by how much they paid (the bargain or paying whatever it takes).
If someone is an organized collector (such as completing a collection based upon some catalog listing) then what you pay to complete the collector will likely come into play since it requires getting specific material to complete the collection.
Login to Like
this post
re: catalog value obsession ?
I am definitely into collecting for the joy of the ride, as you say. But having said that part of the fun is seeing the total catalog value of each country increase as I process the new stamps.
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