Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Commoner- Experience Collectors without Certification or Doctoral degree.
Internal Philatelist- Philatelic Investigators with certification in stamp authentication & grading (20+ years exp)
Processor- Philatelic Scientists with Doctoral degree (30+ years exp)
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Today, we focus a old letter (see below). This is doctor letter send by a French Polynesian resident in 1965. The destination is Netherlands (Holland). The post mark is at Papeete which is the capital city. The condition of letter is fine, the hand writing & 2 post marks are clear, can be read easily. A little discolored on envelope which is normal for old envelope.
This letter to me is average, nothing special. The only thing caught my attention is the stamp. That stamp is year 1959. The Polynesian postal office released only 1 issue that year. Overall, ok item. I wouldn't sell if I'm seller because little value $
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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I agree, the writing and post marks are clear visible. Slight discolored on the envelop.
That 1959 stamp is Yvette #13, Scott #192 and Michel #15. Not much value if you check catalogue.
Letter condition is fine, can sell for about $5...A question. How you know is doctor letter ?
Nathan Auti, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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Agree, not much value. Are you sure it's a doctor's letter? Anyway, here is my evaluation:
Condition: G
Texture: G
Postal Mark: XF
Letters imp: VF
Value: $5
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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Disagree! The grading shall be in point system in compliance with the Philatelic Foundation. Using G, VG, F, VF...etc is too general. Please be accurate! You indicated it's a doctor's letter. Please provide evidence, everything must be confirm!
Tuarii Araia, Professor
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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This is doctor's letter inside the envelop. It's medical report written in Dutch. My apology for not display earlier. The owner is selling for $16, but we valued at $5. Now, we conclude this evaluation. Next week, we will evaluate a burn letter that survived from a airplane crash. Thanks for everyone's input. Until next time.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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This is a Los Angeles cover that survived postal airplane crash in Sept. 1930. The Nordic Air depart Ohio to New York, but never reach New York. The plane crashed in Ohio (city or state). The pilot & this burn cover survived. We will evaluate this burn cover to determine the value.
ean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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05:59:56pm
"This is doctor letter send by a French Polynesian resident in 1965. The destination is Netherlands (Holland). "
Your discussion of this item misses the key element of its collectability, and the "family" of collectibles that it belongs to.
It is not a "medical report". It is, in fact, a drug advertising package for the antibiotic "Erythromicine" from Abbott Labs. In the 1950s and 1960s it was a common advertising technique to mail advertising literature like this to doctors around the world from exotic locations, like French Polynesia, so it would be noticed on arrival and read. So, it was not sent by a "French Polynesian resident", but rather a marketing firm that likely airlifted several thousand such letters to Tahiti to have them mailed.
I agree with the evaluation of $5 (I would say $5-10 at auction, depending on the day), but not because of the cover, but because the entire package with the advertising, is present.
Here is a 1965 example from my "Sold database" from Mali:
More common, and more popular with collectors are the "Dear Doctor" picture postcards sent from around the world. Abbott Labs was the most prolific generator of these for their drug Sodium Pentothal, followed by Poulenc.
Here is a quick sample. I'll follow up with more shortly, but right now it is my turn to watch over the new, rambunctious, puppy during the "puppy witching hour" -- the hour immediately before bedtime.
Spanish Sahara "Dear Doctor" Medical Advertising Picture Postcard
Roy
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Jean, the crash site is Warren, Ohio. Warren is the city, Ohio is the state. Warren is in the North East part of the state of Ohio, not far from Cleveland, the state's largest city.
Looking forward to reading more.
and enjoy the back and forth as you discuss these covers.
David
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Roy, thanks for the correction.
amsd, thanks for the information.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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I don't speak Dutch or have an advanced degree, but even without the advertising insert, I can see the Tahiti piece is addressed to a gynecology practice...
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Plane crash cover is always interesting. I don't know much about American postal transportation. The Nordic Air likely use Boeing 95 during 1930's for domestic flights. The burn is not bad on cover, but stamp is absent. The writing is readable & post mark is good. My evaluation:
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Condition: Good (30 points)
Texture: Fair (20 points)
Post mark: Good (30 points)
Letter imp: VG (50 points)
Burn mark: XF (85 points)
Value at: $100
Total points = 225. This is average airplane crash cover. All 4 corners burned is a big plus.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
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Quite an evaluation change.....
Any chance you will send this cover in to be expertised by a professional? And to get a certificate?
What information can you give that makes you state that Nordic Air likely used a Boeing 95?
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12:16:55am
"Plane crash cover is always interesting. I don't know much about American postal transportation. The Nordic Air likely use Boeing 95 during 1930's for domestic flights."
Please allow me to embellish your story of this cover and to make a few corrections. Air crash covers have been an interest of mine for about 20 years. I still retain a small collection, limited to "Airline Crash Covers" (i.e. planes carrying passengers, not just mail). I limited the scope of my collection because I found that the US mail plane crash covers were too numerous. My database shows that I have had about 100 crash covers go through my hands in those 20 years, including one from this flight, which I will show below.
Firstly, the flight was not "Nordic Air". That phrase has been borrowed from a gentleman in Denmark whose collection and website revolves around crash covers that involve one of the Nordic countries in some way. He mentions this flight in the context of "I have only seen one Nordic cover from this flight ... addressed to Denmark".
The flight crashed on Sept. 21, 1930 when the pilot, flying a Boeing 95 registration NC412E for National Air Transport, on a CAM-17 flight from Chicago to Newark developed engine trouble shortly after take-off from Cleveland. He attempted an emergency landing outside Warren Ohio but struck a telephone pole. The pilot, Ambrose M. Banks, was injured but survived. 900 lbs of mail was recovered, partly burned. Five different rubber stamp cachets were used to mark the damaged mail.
The American Airmail Catalog, Volume 1, lists this crash at $55. I believe that is a reasonable catalog value (on the low side for crash mail due to the volume of mail recovered.) I would place a more realistic value on the cover shown of more like $20-25.
Here is a photo of the actual airplane, registration NC412E
and here is the example from my collection, sold a few years ago, including the "ambulance cover" (not in great shape) which carried the burned cover to destination.
This sold for $56, with active bidding beginning at a starting price of $19.99. Likely because of the presence of the ambulance cover, the small, stamped cover and the great look for a crash cover.
I have an early, small example of my crash cover collection on Stamporama Exhibits (before I eliminated mail plane crashes):
When the Mail Crashes
And, just as a matter of interest, here is a crash cover I sold just last week. It is a "duplicate" (i.e. same flight) of a crash I already had in my collection, that is in the exhibit.
Hong Kong 1966 Air Crash Cover Tokyo March 66 to Canada with ambulance/letter
Cover mailed from Hong Kong to Canada on the Canadian Pacific Airlines Empress of Hong Kong which crashed on approach in heavy fog at Tokyo on March 4, 1966. Cover burned around the edges, complete with back of the envelope and contents. Accompanied by the ambulance cover which carried it to destination and the Post Office letter.
This sold for $99 to a collector in Hong Kong.
Roy
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musicman- we don''t know if owner of cover will get it certified, but that's a good idea. The reason I say Nordic Air likely used Boeing 95 because I found the information on this website: http://crashmail.dk/air-crashes/1930-09-21/
roy- Thanks for additional informacion. It's amazing you collect so many crash covers. I knew there a market for this. The airplane in your photo is amazing, I guess american postal service contract Air Nordic for transport.
The burn cover scored 225 points in my evaluation & value at $100 mainly for corners. All 4 corners of cover were burn at 90 degree angle, it's unusual. The burn at corners were medium, not too dark or too light. It's perfect, you can almost smell the burn, a wonderful fragrance few collectors get to inhale. Its like open a new bubble gum wrapper & smell the delicious gum, so refreshing. I would value this burn cover at $500 if it still have that beautiful burn smell today.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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08:37:19pm
"The reason I say Nordic Air likely used Boeing 95 because I found the information on this website: http://crashmail.dk/air-crashes/1930-09-21/"
Yes, that is exactly the website I was referring to. There was no "Nordic Air". That gentleman collects crash covers that have a "Nordic connection"
From his website:
"Welcome to my website devoted to Nordic Air Crash Mail. ...
"Nordic" Refers to the Nordic countries = Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden including the Faroe Islands and Greenland
Included in the collection is mail transported via a regular air mail route which was sent to or from one of the Nordic countries or
which was on board an aircraft which crashed on Nordic territory."
The aircraft was, in fact, operated by National Air Transport, operating on Contract Airmail Route 17 (CAM-17) from Chicago to Newark. Yes, "Contract" means under contract to the Post Office.
I feel your price evaluations are extreme. As I said, I have 100 "prices realized" for crash covers in my database and my buyers include several of the foremost crash cover specialists, including the authors of the most relevant literature. Want to buy any from my current holdings?
Roy
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I have several crash covers in my collection, representing four different disasters:
1934 — The KLM Douglas DC-2 Uiver, which crashed in the Syrian Deserts on its first commercial flight, from Amsterdam to Java. Just a few weeks previously, the Uiver had placed first in the handicap division of the McRobertson International Air Race from London to Melbourne.
The Uiver established the practicality of using airliners for transcontinental and transoceanic transportation of passengers and freight. The flight to Java, advertised as a "Fast Christmas flight", killed all four crew and the three passengers. No formal investigation was carried out, but the plane probably crashed as a result of a violent system of thunderstorm that blanketed much of the Middle East. It may have been struck by lightning. A lot of the mail that the plane carried was salvaged. Some mail bags were undamaged, but others were ejected from the plane and burst open, spilling their contents. I have covers that show not only signs of fire, but also of damage by rain, oil and mud. Here are examples of an undamaged Uiver cover, and one that was damaged:
The other three crashes that I have become interested in all happened in 1954, when it was common for airliners to fall from he sky. In that year, 60 airliner crashes occurred, one less than the average for mid-century. The three crashes that I am especially interested in:
• The collision of a Royal Canadian Air Force Harvard trainer and a Trans-Canada Airlines Canadair DC-4M Northstar over Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. See my non-commercial web page, North Star Falling.
• The crash of a British Overseas Airways Corporation Boeing 377 Stratocruiser at Prestwick, Scotland. See my web page, Christmas Tragedy at Prestwick. I was fortunate to meet and interview the son of the airliner’s pilot, who is an actor based in Vancouver.
• The crash of an Linee Aeree Italiane (LAI) Douglas DC-6B at Idlewild Airport in New York City. LAI is popularly known today as Alitalia. I am currently working on a web page about this crash.
I have been collecting crash covers for about the same length of time as Roy Lingen. In that time, I don’t believe I’ve paid more than $100 for any crash cover, and considerably less than most of them one. Covers from the crash of the Uiver are sometimes not even identified as crash covers because they are undamaged, and available for little money.
My interest in plane crashes is “natural,” since I myself survived the crash of a small plane in 1962. Ever since then, I’ve been interested in the causes of plane crashes. I have learned that aircraft rarely fall from the sky because of one problem such as “pilot error” or “inclement weather”.
The primary cause of the Uiver’s crash was probably the storm that I mentioned, but there is strong evidence that the pilot was fatigued as a result of long talks with KLM about wages and working conditions for pilots. In fact, he had at first refused to take the flight, which he considered to be too dangerous, but did so because he was threatened with losing his job.
The crash at Moose Jaw happened at mid-day in clear air. Both the Harvard trainer and the Northstar were exactly where they were supposed to be, but neither pilot apparently was practicing situation awareness, a concept developed by American pilots in the Korean War. Situation awareness is nothing more than paying attention to…everything: how much fuel remains in the plane’s tanks, where the pilot’s wingmen are, where his plane is, how high or low it is, what attitude the plane is in, how much ammunition is left, what time it is, what the the weather is, whether there are enemy planes nearby, what time it is, what the weather is, what the weather will be like, whether the aircraft is operating well, and how far away the nearest landing field is. Neither pilot in the Moose Jaw crash took evasive action. It was reported at the time that the Harvard collided with the Northstar, but that’s impossible because the Northstar was flying almost twice as fast as the Harvard.
The Prestwick crash was blamed on the pilot, but the flight was running late because of mechanical problems (the crew and passengers had had to deplane and board another Stratocruiser). The pilot could have asked another crew to take over, but it was Christmas Eve and he didn’t want to ask other pilots and crew to leave their families. When the flight arrived at Prestwick, in low cloud and fog, they found the airport runway lights to be inoperable. There is evidence that the co-pilot lowered the flaps too soon, and that the pilot was blinded by glare from the plane’s landing lights on the fog.
The LAI DC-6B had flown all the way from Rome, stopping at Shannon, Gander, and Boston for fuel and, at Boston, to deplane some passengers.. At Idlewild, the crew encountered bad weather. Three times they attempted to land, but aborted each time. Before their fourth attempt, air traffic control suggested that they fly to an alternate airport which had better weather, but the crew, infected with “hurry-up-itis,” chose to try once more and struck the pier which supported the runways landing lights.
Bob
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Bobstamp - Great adventure. You survived the plane crash, that's incredible. I can see why you have interest in plane crash investigation.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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I recently picked up a cut corner from a crash cover, Los Angeles to Salt Lake City on Jan 10, 1930. Maurice Graham crash-landed a Boeing 95 on top of a 9500-ft mountain in a blizzard, and his body wasn't found until nearly 6 months later, frozen to death, still sitting on a fallen log several miles away from the crash site. Apparently ALL of the securities mail was found with Graham, who had carried it out with him, before dying of exposure.
January 10, 1930
Western Air Express, Corp.
Contract Air Mail Route (CAM-4)
Boeing 95 Mailplane (NC420E)
Near Cedar City, Utah
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roy- I evaluate covers & letters, but I don't collect them. My wife will kill me if I collect. Now, I only collect money.
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partsguy- you are the third person collect plane crash cover here. I surprise many collect. I guess the market for these items is lot bigger than I expected. I wonder if Airplane Crash Cover Expo exist ??
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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I’m not aware of any regular philatelic exhibitions dedicated to crash covers, but there are no doubt a variety of study groups and seminars sponsored by philatelic organizations. However, crash mail is included in the aerophilately section of the exhibiting manual of the American Philatelic Society. The following is excerpted from the manual:
APS Manual of Philatelic Judging and Exhibiting
2016
3.5.2 Aerophilately Exhibits…
An Aerophilately exhibit focuses on the development, operation or other defined aspect of airmail services. The exhibit would include postal items transported by air, preferably bearing evidence that the items actually traveled by air. Depending on your overall story, you might also consider airmail stamps, non-postal items documenting air services, forerunners to regular air postal services, or mail flown by carriers where postal services were not available. These exhibits may also show supporting documents such as schedules, photographs, and other ephemera closely related to the subject.
APP. 2.1.2. Aerophilately Exhibits
Aerophilatelic exhibits are comprised of postal documents transmitted by air and bearing evidence of having been flown. An aerophilatelic exhibit is a study of the development, operation or other defined scope of airmail services, presenting directly relevant items and documenting the treatment and analysis of the aerophilatelic material.
Aerophilately is aeropostal history; i.e., the postal history aspect of airmail. Defined above, its focus is the development, operation or other defined scope of airmail services. The term “airmail” includes aerophilately, i.e., “aerophilately” is within the broad scope of “airmail,” not vice-versa.
Airmail and aviation are inextricably intertwined and provide a wide range of potential exhibit subjects and development schemes. Any type of exhibit can be an airmail exhibit:
• Traditional: The focus is airmail stamps, i.e., stamps printed, overprinted or surcharged for use as postage for airmail usage (whether or not restricted to only airmail usages), including pre-production (essays, proofs, trials).
• Postal Stationery: Focus is airmail postal stationery (postal cards, aerogrammes).
• Postal History, i.e., aerophilately = aeropostal history: Focus is airmail services. (The usual “Four Corners” of postal history: rates, routes, means, and markings, as they apply to airmail services.) • Postal History sub-classes: Marcophily; Historical, Social and Special Studies.
• Also: Display, Illustrated Mail, Cinderellas, Thematic, Topical exhibit types. Judges will assess an airmail exhibit on the conventions used for the exhibit type shown. The “airmail” distinction is that the exhibit displays only airmail / aerophilatelic material and directly related items to achieve its stated purpose.
• When selecting aeropostal history items for exhibit, include a variety of origins, destinations, rates and airmail usages.
• Items prepared to be flown but not flown for legitimate reasons may be included.
• Air-forwarded forerunners to regular air postal services, or early airmail flown by carriers where postal services were not available, document the pioneer period and therefore are important in aerophilately parts to the development of airmail.
Additional Considerations
• “Airmail” includes airmail service-specific adhesive stamps, those overprinted and surcharged specifically for use on airmail, postal stationery (including aerogrammes), vignettes, and labels issued specifically for airmail use.
• Show commercially used rather than philatelically inspired covers whenever possible.
• Philatelic importance in aerophilately is the measure of the exhibit in relation to the overall development of airmail services, i.e., an exhibit covering a subject with a greater contribution to the development of world airmail service is more important than an exhibit with a lesser contribution.
Exhibits of wide geographical areas, earlier periods and longer time periods are more important than their opposites.
• Philatelic depth and diversity should be evident within the exhibit, evidenced by the inclusion of multiple rates, special mail classes, frankings, markings, and diverse users, origins and destinations.
• Many pioneer flights and most experimental, trial, and survey flights carried very limited numbers of covers, most or all of which were philatelic (prepared by or for a collector). However, they often represent the only evidence of the event and therefore, although philatelic, they may be both rare and essentially important.
• Mail recovered from crashes may be very limited. Crash covers are an exception to the rule on condition (see but postal markings applied to salvaged covers should be as clear as possible.
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Thank you everyone for participate. It has been educational & good discoveries.
This thread is close. I will start a new thread. Next week, we will evaluate a letter
send to International Space Station by Russian space aircraft.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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INTRODUCTION: This tread established by Internal Philatelist, a sub group in French Polynesia Stamp Club. The Internal Philatelists analyze & investigate stamps, letters & FDC. Advance level of philatelic study that's difficult to challenge. Professors are welcome to challenge us....Here's 3 sub groups in the club:
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Commoner- Experience Collectors without Certification or Doctoral degree.
Internal Philatelist- Philatelic Investigators with certification in stamp authentication & grading (20+ years exp)
Processor- Philatelic Scientists with Doctoral degree (30+ years exp)
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Today, we focus a old letter (see below). This is doctor letter send by a French Polynesian resident in 1965. The destination is Netherlands (Holland). The post mark is at Papeete which is the capital city. The condition of letter is fine, the hand writing & 2 post marks are clear, can be read easily. A little discolored on envelope which is normal for old envelope.
This letter to me is average, nothing special. The only thing caught my attention is the stamp. That stamp is year 1959. The Polynesian postal office released only 1 issue that year. Overall, ok item. I wouldn't sell if I'm seller because little value $
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
I agree, the writing and post marks are clear visible. Slight discolored on the envelop.
That 1959 stamp is Yvette #13, Scott #192 and Michel #15. Not much value if you check catalogue.
Letter condition is fine, can sell for about $5...A question. How you know is doctor letter ?
Nathan Auti, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Agree, not much value. Are you sure it's a doctor's letter? Anyway, here is my evaluation:
Condition: G
Texture: G
Postal Mark: XF
Letters imp: VF
Value: $5
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Disagree! The grading shall be in point system in compliance with the Philatelic Foundation. Using G, VG, F, VF...etc is too general. Please be accurate! You indicated it's a doctor's letter. Please provide evidence, everything must be confirm!
Tuarii Araia, Professor
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
This is doctor's letter inside the envelop. It's medical report written in Dutch. My apology for not display earlier. The owner is selling for $16, but we valued at $5. Now, we conclude this evaluation. Next week, we will evaluate a burn letter that survived from a airplane crash. Thanks for everyone's input. Until next time.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
This is a Los Angeles cover that survived postal airplane crash in Sept. 1930. The Nordic Air depart Ohio to New York, but never reach New York. The plane crashed in Ohio (city or state). The pilot & this burn cover survived. We will evaluate this burn cover to determine the value.
ean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
27 Feb 2022
05:59:56pm
re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
"This is doctor letter send by a French Polynesian resident in 1965. The destination is Netherlands (Holland). "
Your discussion of this item misses the key element of its collectability, and the "family" of collectibles that it belongs to.
It is not a "medical report". It is, in fact, a drug advertising package for the antibiotic "Erythromicine" from Abbott Labs. In the 1950s and 1960s it was a common advertising technique to mail advertising literature like this to doctors around the world from exotic locations, like French Polynesia, so it would be noticed on arrival and read. So, it was not sent by a "French Polynesian resident", but rather a marketing firm that likely airlifted several thousand such letters to Tahiti to have them mailed.
I agree with the evaluation of $5 (I would say $5-10 at auction, depending on the day), but not because of the cover, but because the entire package with the advertising, is present.
Here is a 1965 example from my "Sold database" from Mali:
More common, and more popular with collectors are the "Dear Doctor" picture postcards sent from around the world. Abbott Labs was the most prolific generator of these for their drug Sodium Pentothal, followed by Poulenc.
Here is a quick sample. I'll follow up with more shortly, but right now it is my turn to watch over the new, rambunctious, puppy during the "puppy witching hour" -- the hour immediately before bedtime.
Spanish Sahara "Dear Doctor" Medical Advertising Picture Postcard
Roy
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Jean, the crash site is Warren, Ohio. Warren is the city, Ohio is the state. Warren is in the North East part of the state of Ohio, not far from Cleveland, the state's largest city.
Looking forward to reading more.
and enjoy the back and forth as you discuss these covers.
David
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Roy, thanks for the correction.
amsd, thanks for the information.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
I don't speak Dutch or have an advanced degree, but even without the advertising insert, I can see the Tahiti piece is addressed to a gynecology practice...
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Plane crash cover is always interesting. I don't know much about American postal transportation. The Nordic Air likely use Boeing 95 during 1930's for domestic flights. The burn is not bad on cover, but stamp is absent. The writing is readable & post mark is good. My evaluation:
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Condition: Good (30 points)
Texture: Fair (20 points)
Post mark: Good (30 points)
Letter imp: VG (50 points)
Burn mark: XF (85 points)
Value at: $100
Total points = 225. This is average airplane crash cover. All 4 corners burned is a big plus.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Quite an evaluation change.....
Any chance you will send this cover in to be expertised by a professional? And to get a certificate?
What information can you give that makes you state that Nordic Air likely used a Boeing 95?
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01 Mar 2022
12:16:55am
re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
"Plane crash cover is always interesting. I don't know much about American postal transportation. The Nordic Air likely use Boeing 95 during 1930's for domestic flights."
Please allow me to embellish your story of this cover and to make a few corrections. Air crash covers have been an interest of mine for about 20 years. I still retain a small collection, limited to "Airline Crash Covers" (i.e. planes carrying passengers, not just mail). I limited the scope of my collection because I found that the US mail plane crash covers were too numerous. My database shows that I have had about 100 crash covers go through my hands in those 20 years, including one from this flight, which I will show below.
Firstly, the flight was not "Nordic Air". That phrase has been borrowed from a gentleman in Denmark whose collection and website revolves around crash covers that involve one of the Nordic countries in some way. He mentions this flight in the context of "I have only seen one Nordic cover from this flight ... addressed to Denmark".
The flight crashed on Sept. 21, 1930 when the pilot, flying a Boeing 95 registration NC412E for National Air Transport, on a CAM-17 flight from Chicago to Newark developed engine trouble shortly after take-off from Cleveland. He attempted an emergency landing outside Warren Ohio but struck a telephone pole. The pilot, Ambrose M. Banks, was injured but survived. 900 lbs of mail was recovered, partly burned. Five different rubber stamp cachets were used to mark the damaged mail.
The American Airmail Catalog, Volume 1, lists this crash at $55. I believe that is a reasonable catalog value (on the low side for crash mail due to the volume of mail recovered.) I would place a more realistic value on the cover shown of more like $20-25.
Here is a photo of the actual airplane, registration NC412E
and here is the example from my collection, sold a few years ago, including the "ambulance cover" (not in great shape) which carried the burned cover to destination.
This sold for $56, with active bidding beginning at a starting price of $19.99. Likely because of the presence of the ambulance cover, the small, stamped cover and the great look for a crash cover.
I have an early, small example of my crash cover collection on Stamporama Exhibits (before I eliminated mail plane crashes):
When the Mail Crashes
And, just as a matter of interest, here is a crash cover I sold just last week. It is a "duplicate" (i.e. same flight) of a crash I already had in my collection, that is in the exhibit.
Hong Kong 1966 Air Crash Cover Tokyo March 66 to Canada with ambulance/letter
Cover mailed from Hong Kong to Canada on the Canadian Pacific Airlines Empress of Hong Kong which crashed on approach in heavy fog at Tokyo on March 4, 1966. Cover burned around the edges, complete with back of the envelope and contents. Accompanied by the ambulance cover which carried it to destination and the Post Office letter.
This sold for $99 to a collector in Hong Kong.
Roy
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
musicman- we don''t know if owner of cover will get it certified, but that's a good idea. The reason I say Nordic Air likely used Boeing 95 because I found the information on this website: http://crashmail.dk/air-crashes/1930-09-21/
roy- Thanks for additional informacion. It's amazing you collect so many crash covers. I knew there a market for this. The airplane in your photo is amazing, I guess american postal service contract Air Nordic for transport.
The burn cover scored 225 points in my evaluation & value at $100 mainly for corners. All 4 corners of cover were burn at 90 degree angle, it's unusual. The burn at corners were medium, not too dark or too light. It's perfect, you can almost smell the burn, a wonderful fragrance few collectors get to inhale. Its like open a new bubble gum wrapper & smell the delicious gum, so refreshing. I would value this burn cover at $500 if it still have that beautiful burn smell today.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
02 Mar 2022
08:37:19pm
re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
"The reason I say Nordic Air likely used Boeing 95 because I found the information on this website: http://crashmail.dk/air-crashes/1930-09-21/"
Yes, that is exactly the website I was referring to. There was no "Nordic Air". That gentleman collects crash covers that have a "Nordic connection"
From his website:
"Welcome to my website devoted to Nordic Air Crash Mail. ...
"Nordic" Refers to the Nordic countries = Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden including the Faroe Islands and Greenland
Included in the collection is mail transported via a regular air mail route which was sent to or from one of the Nordic countries or
which was on board an aircraft which crashed on Nordic territory."
The aircraft was, in fact, operated by National Air Transport, operating on Contract Airmail Route 17 (CAM-17) from Chicago to Newark. Yes, "Contract" means under contract to the Post Office.
I feel your price evaluations are extreme. As I said, I have 100 "prices realized" for crash covers in my database and my buyers include several of the foremost crash cover specialists, including the authors of the most relevant literature. Want to buy any from my current holdings?
Roy
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
I have several crash covers in my collection, representing four different disasters:
1934 — The KLM Douglas DC-2 Uiver, which crashed in the Syrian Deserts on its first commercial flight, from Amsterdam to Java. Just a few weeks previously, the Uiver had placed first in the handicap division of the McRobertson International Air Race from London to Melbourne.
The Uiver established the practicality of using airliners for transcontinental and transoceanic transportation of passengers and freight. The flight to Java, advertised as a "Fast Christmas flight", killed all four crew and the three passengers. No formal investigation was carried out, but the plane probably crashed as a result of a violent system of thunderstorm that blanketed much of the Middle East. It may have been struck by lightning. A lot of the mail that the plane carried was salvaged. Some mail bags were undamaged, but others were ejected from the plane and burst open, spilling their contents. I have covers that show not only signs of fire, but also of damage by rain, oil and mud. Here are examples of an undamaged Uiver cover, and one that was damaged:
The other three crashes that I have become interested in all happened in 1954, when it was common for airliners to fall from he sky. In that year, 60 airliner crashes occurred, one less than the average for mid-century. The three crashes that I am especially interested in:
• The collision of a Royal Canadian Air Force Harvard trainer and a Trans-Canada Airlines Canadair DC-4M Northstar over Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. See my non-commercial web page, North Star Falling.
• The crash of a British Overseas Airways Corporation Boeing 377 Stratocruiser at Prestwick, Scotland. See my web page, Christmas Tragedy at Prestwick. I was fortunate to meet and interview the son of the airliner’s pilot, who is an actor based in Vancouver.
• The crash of an Linee Aeree Italiane (LAI) Douglas DC-6B at Idlewild Airport in New York City. LAI is popularly known today as Alitalia. I am currently working on a web page about this crash.
I have been collecting crash covers for about the same length of time as Roy Lingen. In that time, I don’t believe I’ve paid more than $100 for any crash cover, and considerably less than most of them one. Covers from the crash of the Uiver are sometimes not even identified as crash covers because they are undamaged, and available for little money.
My interest in plane crashes is “natural,” since I myself survived the crash of a small plane in 1962. Ever since then, I’ve been interested in the causes of plane crashes. I have learned that aircraft rarely fall from the sky because of one problem such as “pilot error” or “inclement weather”.
The primary cause of the Uiver’s crash was probably the storm that I mentioned, but there is strong evidence that the pilot was fatigued as a result of long talks with KLM about wages and working conditions for pilots. In fact, he had at first refused to take the flight, which he considered to be too dangerous, but did so because he was threatened with losing his job.
The crash at Moose Jaw happened at mid-day in clear air. Both the Harvard trainer and the Northstar were exactly where they were supposed to be, but neither pilot apparently was practicing situation awareness, a concept developed by American pilots in the Korean War. Situation awareness is nothing more than paying attention to…everything: how much fuel remains in the plane’s tanks, where the pilot’s wingmen are, where his plane is, how high or low it is, what attitude the plane is in, how much ammunition is left, what time it is, what the the weather is, whether there are enemy planes nearby, what time it is, what the weather is, what the weather will be like, whether the aircraft is operating well, and how far away the nearest landing field is. Neither pilot in the Moose Jaw crash took evasive action. It was reported at the time that the Harvard collided with the Northstar, but that’s impossible because the Northstar was flying almost twice as fast as the Harvard.
The Prestwick crash was blamed on the pilot, but the flight was running late because of mechanical problems (the crew and passengers had had to deplane and board another Stratocruiser). The pilot could have asked another crew to take over, but it was Christmas Eve and he didn’t want to ask other pilots and crew to leave their families. When the flight arrived at Prestwick, in low cloud and fog, they found the airport runway lights to be inoperable. There is evidence that the co-pilot lowered the flaps too soon, and that the pilot was blinded by glare from the plane’s landing lights on the fog.
The LAI DC-6B had flown all the way from Rome, stopping at Shannon, Gander, and Boston for fuel and, at Boston, to deplane some passengers.. At Idlewild, the crew encountered bad weather. Three times they attempted to land, but aborted each time. Before their fourth attempt, air traffic control suggested that they fly to an alternate airport which had better weather, but the crew, infected with “hurry-up-itis,” chose to try once more and struck the pier which supported the runways landing lights.
Bob
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Bobstamp - Great adventure. You survived the plane crash, that's incredible. I can see why you have interest in plane crash investigation.
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
I recently picked up a cut corner from a crash cover, Los Angeles to Salt Lake City on Jan 10, 1930. Maurice Graham crash-landed a Boeing 95 on top of a 9500-ft mountain in a blizzard, and his body wasn't found until nearly 6 months later, frozen to death, still sitting on a fallen log several miles away from the crash site. Apparently ALL of the securities mail was found with Graham, who had carried it out with him, before dying of exposure.
January 10, 1930
Western Air Express, Corp.
Contract Air Mail Route (CAM-4)
Boeing 95 Mailplane (NC420E)
Near Cedar City, Utah
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
roy- I evaluate covers & letters, but I don't collect them. My wife will kill me if I collect. Now, I only collect money.
.
partsguy- you are the third person collect plane crash cover here. I surprise many collect. I guess the market for these items is lot bigger than I expected. I wonder if Airplane Crash Cover Expo exist ??
René Tamarino, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
I’m not aware of any regular philatelic exhibitions dedicated to crash covers, but there are no doubt a variety of study groups and seminars sponsored by philatelic organizations. However, crash mail is included in the aerophilately section of the exhibiting manual of the American Philatelic Society. The following is excerpted from the manual:
APS Manual of Philatelic Judging and Exhibiting
2016
3.5.2 Aerophilately Exhibits…
An Aerophilately exhibit focuses on the development, operation or other defined aspect of airmail services. The exhibit would include postal items transported by air, preferably bearing evidence that the items actually traveled by air. Depending on your overall story, you might also consider airmail stamps, non-postal items documenting air services, forerunners to regular air postal services, or mail flown by carriers where postal services were not available. These exhibits may also show supporting documents such as schedules, photographs, and other ephemera closely related to the subject.
APP. 2.1.2. Aerophilately Exhibits
Aerophilatelic exhibits are comprised of postal documents transmitted by air and bearing evidence of having been flown. An aerophilatelic exhibit is a study of the development, operation or other defined scope of airmail services, presenting directly relevant items and documenting the treatment and analysis of the aerophilatelic material.
Aerophilately is aeropostal history; i.e., the postal history aspect of airmail. Defined above, its focus is the development, operation or other defined scope of airmail services. The term “airmail” includes aerophilately, i.e., “aerophilately” is within the broad scope of “airmail,” not vice-versa.
Airmail and aviation are inextricably intertwined and provide a wide range of potential exhibit subjects and development schemes. Any type of exhibit can be an airmail exhibit:
• Traditional: The focus is airmail stamps, i.e., stamps printed, overprinted or surcharged for use as postage for airmail usage (whether or not restricted to only airmail usages), including pre-production (essays, proofs, trials).
• Postal Stationery: Focus is airmail postal stationery (postal cards, aerogrammes).
• Postal History, i.e., aerophilately = aeropostal history: Focus is airmail services. (The usual “Four Corners” of postal history: rates, routes, means, and markings, as they apply to airmail services.) • Postal History sub-classes: Marcophily; Historical, Social and Special Studies.
• Also: Display, Illustrated Mail, Cinderellas, Thematic, Topical exhibit types. Judges will assess an airmail exhibit on the conventions used for the exhibit type shown. The “airmail” distinction is that the exhibit displays only airmail / aerophilatelic material and directly related items to achieve its stated purpose.
• When selecting aeropostal history items for exhibit, include a variety of origins, destinations, rates and airmail usages.
• Items prepared to be flown but not flown for legitimate reasons may be included.
• Air-forwarded forerunners to regular air postal services, or early airmail flown by carriers where postal services were not available, document the pioneer period and therefore are important in aerophilately parts to the development of airmail.
Additional Considerations
• “Airmail” includes airmail service-specific adhesive stamps, those overprinted and surcharged specifically for use on airmail, postal stationery (including aerogrammes), vignettes, and labels issued specifically for airmail use.
• Show commercially used rather than philatelically inspired covers whenever possible.
• Philatelic importance in aerophilately is the measure of the exhibit in relation to the overall development of airmail services, i.e., an exhibit covering a subject with a greater contribution to the development of world airmail service is more important than an exhibit with a lesser contribution.
Exhibits of wide geographical areas, earlier periods and longer time periods are more important than their opposites.
• Philatelic depth and diversity should be evident within the exhibit, evidenced by the inclusion of multiple rates, special mail classes, frankings, markings, and diverse users, origins and destinations.
• Many pioneer flights and most experimental, trial, and survey flights carried very limited numbers of covers, most or all of which were philatelic (prepared by or for a collector). However, they often represent the only evidence of the event and therefore, although philatelic, they may be both rare and essentially important.
• Mail recovered from crashes may be very limited. Crash covers are an exception to the rule on condition (see but postal markings applied to salvaged covers should be as clear as possible.
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re: Internal Philatelist - Examine covers
Thank you everyone for participate. It has been educational & good discoveries.
This thread is close. I will start a new thread. Next week, we will evaluate a letter
send to International Space Station by Russian space aircraft.
Jean LeMay, Internal Philatelist
French Polynesia Stamp Club
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