Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
03:11:12pm
Very hard to explain!! I compared #3 to #11A and #5 to #12A and the main difference I can see or feel is the overall roughness of the backs of the earlier series compared to the second series. The difference seems to be fairly significant and I'm pretty sure that's what I'd go with. The backs of the second series are very smooth compared to the first. In the first series I only have #'s 1, 3 and 5 - the rest I can't afford. In the second series I have #'s 11A, 12, 12A and 13 - a bit better! The roughness, or lack of it, seems consistent with the two series. The first series feels very rough and the second series seems much smoother. I don't know how much this helps because it doesn't seem to be like the early US stamps with meshes since they seem to be in defined patterns. The Newfoundland stamps are not, they just seem to be rough all over.
Thanks for any extra comments you might be able to give!!
Edit: There must be several Canada / Newfoundland collectors out there reading this. How would you describe the differences between these two series? All that Unitrade says is: First Series - Thick porous wove paper with mesh Second series - Thin to thick wove paper with no mesh. With #3 and #11A both are green #5 is brown violet and #12A is violet brown which they show as a bit darker but colours can fade and my #5 seems to be the darker one (?)! Is there anything else I might be missing?
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I had reached out to Joe with the original ID question. Then digging out my Newfoundland odds and ends I re-discovered The Pence Issues of Newfoundland 1857-1866 by Robert H. Pratt. Shows how long ago I obtained it and how often I have worked on Newfoundland.
Anyway I have answered my own question.
The 1857 issue used hand made paper and it varies in thickness, from sheet to sheet and often from stamp to stamp on the same sheet. It is generally thicker then the second issue. In the process of making the paper by hand a fine screen was used to gather the paper pulp, which left it's impression on the finished stamp, so the imprint of the screen or the "mesh" is only found on the 1857 issue. The manufactured paper in the second, 1861, issue is much brighter under a UV light.
Problem solved. Thanks to Joe for his assist.
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When you say series I assume the same transfer rolls were used?
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11:33:47am
"The manufactured paper in the second, 1861, issue is much brighter under a UV light."
Thanks for the information! Absolutely nothing is said about this in the catalogues!! Time to dig out the black light since I'm really not sure about my #1. I'm positive about the others because of the general look and feel of the paper. It's soft, thick and rough!!
"When you say series I assume the same transfer rolls were used?"
I really don't understand what you are saying! Could you please explain? I can't figure out how this would help ID the stamp. A transfer roll, I thought, just transfers the ink to the stamp. How does this help ID the stamp? I think the transfer roll might be the same for matching stamps in both series but I believe it's the paper itself that distinguishes between the stamps, but I might not be looking at this the right way!
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The transfer roll does not transfer ink to the stamp!
Perhaps when you said "Difference between the first two Newfoundland series" it sounded to me like the same design, but I was not sure that's why I asked about the transfer roll.
To me two series would normally refer to two different designs!
I'd suggest (only a suggestion) you go to the library and read the forward section in the "Scott Specialized", so you could learn what a transfer roll does, Scott explains it better than I could ever explain it!
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02:43:04pm
"I'd suggest (only a suggestion) you go to the library and read the forward section in the "Scott Specialized", so you could learn what a transfer roll does, Scott explains it better than I could ever explain it!"
OK, did that, it still has absolutely nothing to do with what I need to ID the differences between the two series. My guess is that individual stamps from the two series were made from the same PLATE but the difference between the two stamp series is base on the paper, not the design of the stamp. It's been a very productive day because at least now I know the difference between the plate and the transfer roll. I was always a bit curious how the plate was done. At least now I don't picture some overworked person carving, or etching, the whole plate! Imagine the number of varieties that would cause!
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Good!
When were as you call it the 2nd series issued? When was the first series issued?
I know you want to jump ahead and find out which paper is which. After over 66 years of collecting stamps I find it very important to establish a few facts before jumping ahead.
Please provise good detailed scans of front and reverse side of each stamp in question.
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06:27:33pm
David, no need to do all of that! It's only a question of the paper and that's totally under control. Sorry!!
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Harvey, what was the outcome, hope you made a good score!
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David
I wish that you would explain the transfer roll to us.
Scott explains it but I`m sure that your explanation would help many of us beginner collectors.
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Transfer roll as per "The language of Stamp Collecting by David Rennie,ISBN 0 352 31088 X
"Most plate-making processes at some stage or other require the transfer of the original engraving or design to the printing plate either directly or indirectly. This action is known as transferring. In recess printing it will be from the master die to the special roller (known as the transfer roller)which is used in turn to transfer the design to the plate as many times as there will be impressions on the sheet."
This video shows the engraving process from about two minutes in.
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When referring to a posting in my case use "1898", there are too many David's!
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Seems to me the Unitrade compounds the issues involved with this paper question, especially when they use first series and second series for stamps from the same transfer roll!
To my way of thinking the key point was to determine if there was one or two transfer rolls used!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 May 2023
03:11:12pm
A member sent me a question about the difference between the first two Newfoundland stamp series, mesh and no mesh. I'll give my answer below. If anyone can explain it better or differently I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated. Except for general roughness of the first series I couldn't notice anything else. Is my explanation correct and does it even make sense?
Very hard to explain!! I compared #3 to #11A and #5 to #12A and the main difference I can see or feel is the overall roughness of the backs of the earlier series compared to the second series. The difference seems to be fairly significant and I'm pretty sure that's what I'd go with. The backs of the second series are very smooth compared to the first. In the first series I only have #'s 1, 3 and 5 - the rest I can't afford. In the second series I have #'s 11A, 12, 12A and 13 - a bit better! The roughness, or lack of it, seems consistent with the two series. The first series feels very rough and the second series seems much smoother. I don't know how much this helps because it doesn't seem to be like the early US stamps with meshes since they seem to be in defined patterns. The Newfoundland stamps are not, they just seem to be rough all over.
Thanks for any extra comments you might be able to give!!
Edit: There must be several Canada / Newfoundland collectors out there reading this. How would you describe the differences between these two series? All that Unitrade says is: First Series - Thick porous wove paper with mesh Second series - Thin to thick wove paper with no mesh. With #3 and #11A both are green #5 is brown violet and #12A is violet brown which they show as a bit darker but colours can fade and my #5 seems to be the darker one (?)! Is there anything else I might be missing?
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re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
I had reached out to Joe with the original ID question. Then digging out my Newfoundland odds and ends I re-discovered The Pence Issues of Newfoundland 1857-1866 by Robert H. Pratt. Shows how long ago I obtained it and how often I have worked on Newfoundland.
Anyway I have answered my own question.
The 1857 issue used hand made paper and it varies in thickness, from sheet to sheet and often from stamp to stamp on the same sheet. It is generally thicker then the second issue. In the process of making the paper by hand a fine screen was used to gather the paper pulp, which left it's impression on the finished stamp, so the imprint of the screen or the "mesh" is only found on the 1857 issue. The manufactured paper in the second, 1861, issue is much brighter under a UV light.
Problem solved. Thanks to Joe for his assist.
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10:40:13am
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
When you say series I assume the same transfer rolls were used?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 May 2023
11:33:47am
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
"The manufactured paper in the second, 1861, issue is much brighter under a UV light."
Thanks for the information! Absolutely nothing is said about this in the catalogues!! Time to dig out the black light since I'm really not sure about my #1. I'm positive about the others because of the general look and feel of the paper. It's soft, thick and rough!!
"When you say series I assume the same transfer rolls were used?"
I really don't understand what you are saying! Could you please explain? I can't figure out how this would help ID the stamp. A transfer roll, I thought, just transfers the ink to the stamp. How does this help ID the stamp? I think the transfer roll might be the same for matching stamps in both series but I believe it's the paper itself that distinguishes between the stamps, but I might not be looking at this the right way!
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01:31:47pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
The transfer roll does not transfer ink to the stamp!
Perhaps when you said "Difference between the first two Newfoundland series" it sounded to me like the same design, but I was not sure that's why I asked about the transfer roll.
To me two series would normally refer to two different designs!
I'd suggest (only a suggestion) you go to the library and read the forward section in the "Scott Specialized", so you could learn what a transfer roll does, Scott explains it better than I could ever explain it!
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 May 2023
02:43:04pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
"I'd suggest (only a suggestion) you go to the library and read the forward section in the "Scott Specialized", so you could learn what a transfer roll does, Scott explains it better than I could ever explain it!"
OK, did that, it still has absolutely nothing to do with what I need to ID the differences between the two series. My guess is that individual stamps from the two series were made from the same PLATE but the difference between the two stamp series is base on the paper, not the design of the stamp. It's been a very productive day because at least now I know the difference between the plate and the transfer roll. I was always a bit curious how the plate was done. At least now I don't picture some overworked person carving, or etching, the whole plate! Imagine the number of varieties that would cause!
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06:23:34pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
Good!
When were as you call it the 2nd series issued? When was the first series issued?
I know you want to jump ahead and find out which paper is which. After over 66 years of collecting stamps I find it very important to establish a few facts before jumping ahead.
Please provise good detailed scans of front and reverse side of each stamp in question.
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 May 2023
06:27:33pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
David, no need to do all of that! It's only a question of the paper and that's totally under control. Sorry!!
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06:30:05pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
Harvey, what was the outcome, hope you made a good score!
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06:55:39pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
David
I wish that you would explain the transfer roll to us.
Scott explains it but I`m sure that your explanation would help many of us beginner collectors.
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this post
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
Transfer roll as per "The language of Stamp Collecting by David Rennie,ISBN 0 352 31088 X
"Most plate-making processes at some stage or other require the transfer of the original engraving or design to the printing plate either directly or indirectly. This action is known as transferring. In recess printing it will be from the master die to the special roller (known as the transfer roller)which is used in turn to transfer the design to the plate as many times as there will be impressions on the sheet."
This video shows the engraving process from about two minutes in.
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12:35:25pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
When referring to a posting in my case use "1898", there are too many David's!
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07:49:27pm
re: Difference between the first two Newfoundland series?
Seems to me the Unitrade compounds the issues involved with this paper question, especially when they use first series and second series for stamps from the same transfer roll!
To my way of thinking the key point was to determine if there was one or two transfer rolls used!
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this post