Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Any information on these stamps would be tremendously appreciated, as usual!
Mike
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@CapeStampMan
I'm not sure I understand your posting?
Which one stated by you was never issued as a single, which one? My take on your posting these two stamps were printed one green and one red at the same time, is this correct?
This posting of yours really needs a good scan(s), might I suggest you wait and post again when you have your scanner up and running (perhaps its your software)?
1898
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David,
IMHO, I don't understand what the issue is about understanding what I was trying to explain about two simple stamps. It seems you seem to have a lot of issues about understanding questions on the DB, while I, such a simple person do not have trouble understanding most of them. If I don't understand something I do not interfere by asking for an explanation, but wait for someone more intelligent to be able to answer the question, without interference! In reality when someone asks a question, it is the polite people that understand the question are meant to to respond to that question, not ask another question to muddy the waters.
Mike
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From my Unitrade I see that the 1 cent 89 was issued as a sheet of 200 stamps perforated on all sides.
The 1 cent 89a was only issued as an imperforate pair.
The 2 cent 90 again was issued in perforated sheets alike the 1 cent. this is a type 2 wet printing perfed 12.
The 2 cent 90A was issued as an imperf pair, again type 2 perf 12.
However, there is a 2 cent 90bs which was a single with a straight edge from a booklet pane, could this be what you have?
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02:21:20pm
Allow me to clear a few things up:
1)Neither of the 1c and 2c imperfs were issued in pairs. Catalogues routinely price the imperf version of otherwise perforated stamps in pairs, because that is the only way to be sure you have true imperforates (with the exception of single copies that show adjoining stamps). Both of these stamps were issued in "sheets" (correctly called "panes") of 100 stamps printed from plates of either 200, (2 x 100), or 400 (4 x 100))
2) There are two versions of the 2c. Unitrade 90iv (not recognized in Scott) 90c, and 90A. 90A was available for sale to the public as late as 1920, and apparently 100,000 were printed. There is disagreement about the reason for this issue of imperforates. Jarrett (1929) repeats the story that a partial sheet of imperforates were blown out the chimney of the printers during destruction of waste and found by a collector. In order to avoid speculation in the issue, Canada Post ordered the print run of 100,000 imperforate 2c. Boggs (1945) discounts this story and points to the fact that the issuance of the 2c imperforate in 1909 is coincident with the activities of the U.S. Auto-Vending Co. and that the Post Office issued these stamps to accommodate that new market. The provisional coil stamps of the 2c (listed in Unitrade) tend to support this view, which I share. These stamps were printed by plates #13 and 14.
3) The 1c, and the Type 1 2c, were part of an offer of imperforates by Marks Stamp Co. in 1924 and 1928 that also included the 1c, 5c, 7c and 10c that are reported to have been from the estate of a former Postmaster General. The 2c in this case is from Plate 2. Unitrade shows 400 copies printed of the 1c, but earlier reports say "200" or "two sheets". I do not know when or where the discrepancy arose.
4) the 1c was never used. It was broken up by Marks Stamp Co. and large blocks went into such collections as Jarrett and Lichtenstein (Jarrett offers a list of 10 collections with known quantities).
Hope that helps.
Roy
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Sheepshank,
Therein lies the problem. #89 was issued in 200 imperf pairs only, so there are no accounting for any of them being used! Then they only printed 100,000 imperf, of #90 out of the almost 3B issued and they had to use 2 different plates to do so, wouldn't you think they could print 100,000 stamps with only one plate? This is one of those things that make some collectors happy with a challenge, while others get frustrated with these problems!
I also have a Unitrade catalog, but since it is made by Scott it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Thank you for your response.
Mike
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Yes Roy,
That seems reasonable. I didn't see your message, since I had started mine a couple of hours ago, but had to take my wife over to see her mother and still had my previous message still on the screen upon returning.
Some of those imperfs had to have gotten into the public hands, but how could they not be accounted for or any of them not show up in a sale somewhere. Even the most valuable stamps in the world have been sold numerous times, but none of these 100,000 pairs. AMAZING!!!!
Roy, so also it seems they may have been printed only to land in the hands of the rich and famous amongst us! Another (IMHO) strange coincidence?
Mike
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Roy, thank you for the excellent explanation, I think the confusion arises over the catalogue wording (Imperf. Pair,) which looked at logically, is for the pricing. Though it appears that we jump to the conclusion, wrongly, that it means issued in pairs.
Thanks again and also for the background story, much appreciated.
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03:55:02pm
"Even the most valuable stamps in the world have been sold numerous times, but none of these 100,000 pairs. AMAZING!!!!"
There is confusion here. The 2c 90A, with it's 100,000 imperforate copies sold to the public at face value right up to 1920 are quite common, including used.
It is the 200 (or 400 if you believe Unitrade) copies of the other values and the Type 1 2c from Plate 2 that were never used. They came out of, supposedly, a former Postmaster-General's estate, were broken up and went straight into big-time collections. And yes, their provenance can be followed through auction catalogs if you have the resources and time to do so.
Roy
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@CapeStampMan
Your posting was addressed to David, was that meant to be addressed to me (I'm 1898)?
So sorry I asked my question, I will not ask you any more questions about the Canadian Stamps, I'll do what you suggest wait until someone who knows and I assume have collected Canadian stamps for a long time.
Any progress with fixing your scanner?
I'm trying to learn about classic Canadian stamps as I have a few hundred dating 1880 up to 1940 I guess. From what I've learned so far the Unitrade cat. is of little use.
Would you recommend another cat. that might be of help to me.
Right and proper identification of these Canadian stamps seems to be more difficult than what thought, if it wasn't that these were saved by a family member and passed along and end up with me I might just get rid of them.
Again thank you for your help.
1898
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If you want to check out the All Nations Auction for next Saturday, they have the following 90A pair.
55 Canada #90A VFNH 1903 2c Edward VI Imperforate Pair
Website :- https://allnationsstampandcoin.com/aucti ...
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David,
I see only one David in this conversation, unless you know of another David here, it was you! The stamps in question were Canadian stamps, but you seem to have issues with a lot of other stamps that you don't seem to know anything about. Why do you feel that you have to interject your responses to something you know nothing about into a discussion by asking for information that you seem to know nothing about. You are a very rude person and you have stepped into many conversations you have no knowledge of. I would ask you why you do that, but I don't actually care to know. I do think when ever you are reading this DB you stop and ask yourself, "Is there some information I can impart by joining this conversation, or am I going to show my ignorance of the subject and ask for more information so that I can become more confused about the subject?" You may not realize it, but when someone asks a question, they are seeking more knowledge on a subject, to gain assistance with an issue they need help with. What they don't need is a rude person asking for help with understanding the original question. How dumb is that????
On the other hand, if you have problems with catalog issues, there are plenty of catalogs available on the internet that are very handy for use and many are used by SOR people everyday and believe it or not, a lot of catalogs on sale through many sites also. Most of us have use of a lot of those catalogs since we have been collecting stamps a long time, collecting several different countries that we always need information about and they come in handy for any tidbits of information on a lot of occasions.
Mike
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@CapeStampMan
Simple solution, if you see I posted a reply, do not read it!
1898
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An interesting question Mike(Capestampman). Thank you Roy and Sheepshanks for some excellent information.
Let's take the squabbling off line guys.
Tim
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@auldstampguy
Good point, lets get back to the topic!!!
1898
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Tim, not sure I helped, maybe added to the confusion, Roy did all the correct explaining and now we are all somewhat wiser. (Hopefully).
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12:48:28pm
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/361591391702
Just in case someone wanted to check out what the actual series of pairs looks like. Since I had already looked at it I was offered it at a price of $2822.21 USD. This doesn't show up in the link so you would have to send me the money if you are interested!! Please don't send cash, I'll ask the seller to get in touch with you!
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01:02:09pm
Note the 2c is gummed, so it is not 90c from Plate 2, it is 90A from the issue of 100,000. I did not check to see if his quoted catalog value correctly adjusts for this, as I did not notice if he specified which catalog the quoted C.V. was from.
Roy
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02:10:10pm
He/she does call it 90A (actually 90a) but from what I can see the only way to tell 90A apart from 90c is whether the stamp is type I or type II and looking at the pictures the main difference there seems to be the cross hatching. I never even noticed 90c until you pointed it out. If anyone was going to spend that amount of money they would be much more likely to do so if the set included 90c. And also a certificate wouldn't hurt even though the stamps look fine, but almost anything can be faked now-a-days with a good enough printer. At least he seems to allow returns!! I would love to have that set, and after all I paid more than that for BC#1, but you can't go nuts every time you see something you want!! If I were serious about it, the fact that there was no certificate and that it had 90A instead of 90c would turn me away!
Edit: As to price. Using my 2023 Unitrade with 90A and the highest quality (VF) for each mint pair the price works out to $4950 CD which works out to $6600 USD using today's rate. So maybe he was considering 90A and not 90c.
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02:37:49pm
"the only way to tell 90A apart from 90c is whether the stamp is type I or type II "
That, plus the fact that 90c and all the other imperfs from the "former Postmaster-General's estate" were ungummed sheets. He states that: "#90a Is Original Gum Never Hinged", thus 90A from the issue of 100,000 that didn't sell out until 10 years after Edward VII's passing.
"price works out to $4950 CD which works out to $6600 USD using today's rate. "
Afraid you have that exchange rate backwards. CAD$4950 is equivalent US$3695 today at C$1.34 = US$1.00
Roy
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02:53:28pm
Sorry Roy. Not with it today at all!! That makes a huge difference, obviously!! That's something that I would expect my not so "with it" math students to do!! I guess what I was also thinking is that if you very carefully cleaned the gum off 90A you would have to use type I and II.
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03:19:55pm
"I guess what I was also thinking is that if you very carefully cleaned the gum off 90A you would have to use type I and II."
Absolutely correct, and a very good reason to insist on a certificate for a purported 90c. Even if one is confident in one's own abilities to identify the Type, it helps enormously in selling when the time comes for a new owner.
Roy
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I have a question about Canada stamps 89a and 90a, that I have in my possession and one of them was never issued as a single, but only in pairs. My thought is maybe someone bought a pair and cut them apart because they wanted a single and not knowing they were going to be a "collectible" in the future used it as postage. Both stamps are the same size so I don't suspect perfs being cut off them. Both of them are used with the 2¢ has a London cancel. I am having trouble with my scanner so can't show them, but they both appear to be normal in all respects, except the one cent, obviously.
Any information on these stamps would be tremendously appreciated, as usual!
Mike
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02:00:36pm
re: Canadian imperfs
@CapeStampMan
I'm not sure I understand your posting?
Which one stated by you was never issued as a single, which one? My take on your posting these two stamps were printed one green and one red at the same time, is this correct?
This posting of yours really needs a good scan(s), might I suggest you wait and post again when you have your scanner up and running (perhaps its your software)?
1898
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re: Canadian imperfs
David,
IMHO, I don't understand what the issue is about understanding what I was trying to explain about two simple stamps. It seems you seem to have a lot of issues about understanding questions on the DB, while I, such a simple person do not have trouble understanding most of them. If I don't understand something I do not interfere by asking for an explanation, but wait for someone more intelligent to be able to answer the question, without interference! In reality when someone asks a question, it is the polite people that understand the question are meant to to respond to that question, not ask another question to muddy the waters.
Mike
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re: Canadian imperfs
From my Unitrade I see that the 1 cent 89 was issued as a sheet of 200 stamps perforated on all sides.
The 1 cent 89a was only issued as an imperforate pair.
The 2 cent 90 again was issued in perforated sheets alike the 1 cent. this is a type 2 wet printing perfed 12.
The 2 cent 90A was issued as an imperf pair, again type 2 perf 12.
However, there is a 2 cent 90bs which was a single with a straight edge from a booklet pane, could this be what you have?
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06 Aug 2023
02:21:20pm
re: Canadian imperfs
Allow me to clear a few things up:
1)Neither of the 1c and 2c imperfs were issued in pairs. Catalogues routinely price the imperf version of otherwise perforated stamps in pairs, because that is the only way to be sure you have true imperforates (with the exception of single copies that show adjoining stamps). Both of these stamps were issued in "sheets" (correctly called "panes") of 100 stamps printed from plates of either 200, (2 x 100), or 400 (4 x 100))
2) There are two versions of the 2c. Unitrade 90iv (not recognized in Scott) 90c, and 90A. 90A was available for sale to the public as late as 1920, and apparently 100,000 were printed. There is disagreement about the reason for this issue of imperforates. Jarrett (1929) repeats the story that a partial sheet of imperforates were blown out the chimney of the printers during destruction of waste and found by a collector. In order to avoid speculation in the issue, Canada Post ordered the print run of 100,000 imperforate 2c. Boggs (1945) discounts this story and points to the fact that the issuance of the 2c imperforate in 1909 is coincident with the activities of the U.S. Auto-Vending Co. and that the Post Office issued these stamps to accommodate that new market. The provisional coil stamps of the 2c (listed in Unitrade) tend to support this view, which I share. These stamps were printed by plates #13 and 14.
3) The 1c, and the Type 1 2c, were part of an offer of imperforates by Marks Stamp Co. in 1924 and 1928 that also included the 1c, 5c, 7c and 10c that are reported to have been from the estate of a former Postmaster General. The 2c in this case is from Plate 2. Unitrade shows 400 copies printed of the 1c, but earlier reports say "200" or "two sheets". I do not know when or where the discrepancy arose.
4) the 1c was never used. It was broken up by Marks Stamp Co. and large blocks went into such collections as Jarrett and Lichtenstein (Jarrett offers a list of 10 collections with known quantities).
Hope that helps.
Roy
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re: Canadian imperfs
Sheepshank,
Therein lies the problem. #89 was issued in 200 imperf pairs only, so there are no accounting for any of them being used! Then they only printed 100,000 imperf, of #90 out of the almost 3B issued and they had to use 2 different plates to do so, wouldn't you think they could print 100,000 stamps with only one plate? This is one of those things that make some collectors happy with a challenge, while others get frustrated with these problems!
I also have a Unitrade catalog, but since it is made by Scott it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Thank you for your response.
Mike
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re: Canadian imperfs
Yes Roy,
That seems reasonable. I didn't see your message, since I had started mine a couple of hours ago, but had to take my wife over to see her mother and still had my previous message still on the screen upon returning.
Some of those imperfs had to have gotten into the public hands, but how could they not be accounted for or any of them not show up in a sale somewhere. Even the most valuable stamps in the world have been sold numerous times, but none of these 100,000 pairs. AMAZING!!!!
Roy, so also it seems they may have been printed only to land in the hands of the rich and famous amongst us! Another (IMHO) strange coincidence?
Mike
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re: Canadian imperfs
Roy, thank you for the excellent explanation, I think the confusion arises over the catalogue wording (Imperf. Pair,) which looked at logically, is for the pricing. Though it appears that we jump to the conclusion, wrongly, that it means issued in pairs.
Thanks again and also for the background story, much appreciated.
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06 Aug 2023
03:55:02pm
re: Canadian imperfs
"Even the most valuable stamps in the world have been sold numerous times, but none of these 100,000 pairs. AMAZING!!!!"
There is confusion here. The 2c 90A, with it's 100,000 imperforate copies sold to the public at face value right up to 1920 are quite common, including used.
It is the 200 (or 400 if you believe Unitrade) copies of the other values and the Type 1 2c from Plate 2 that were never used. They came out of, supposedly, a former Postmaster-General's estate, were broken up and went straight into big-time collections. And yes, their provenance can be followed through auction catalogs if you have the resources and time to do so.
Roy
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05:22:04pm
re: Canadian imperfs
@CapeStampMan
Your posting was addressed to David, was that meant to be addressed to me (I'm 1898)?
So sorry I asked my question, I will not ask you any more questions about the Canadian Stamps, I'll do what you suggest wait until someone who knows and I assume have collected Canadian stamps for a long time.
Any progress with fixing your scanner?
I'm trying to learn about classic Canadian stamps as I have a few hundred dating 1880 up to 1940 I guess. From what I've learned so far the Unitrade cat. is of little use.
Would you recommend another cat. that might be of help to me.
Right and proper identification of these Canadian stamps seems to be more difficult than what thought, if it wasn't that these were saved by a family member and passed along and end up with me I might just get rid of them.
Again thank you for your help.
1898
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re: Canadian imperfs
If you want to check out the All Nations Auction for next Saturday, they have the following 90A pair.
55 Canada #90A VFNH 1903 2c Edward VI Imperforate Pair
Website :- https://allnationsstampandcoin.com/aucti ...
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re: Canadian imperfs
David,
I see only one David in this conversation, unless you know of another David here, it was you! The stamps in question were Canadian stamps, but you seem to have issues with a lot of other stamps that you don't seem to know anything about. Why do you feel that you have to interject your responses to something you know nothing about into a discussion by asking for information that you seem to know nothing about. You are a very rude person and you have stepped into many conversations you have no knowledge of. I would ask you why you do that, but I don't actually care to know. I do think when ever you are reading this DB you stop and ask yourself, "Is there some information I can impart by joining this conversation, or am I going to show my ignorance of the subject and ask for more information so that I can become more confused about the subject?" You may not realize it, but when someone asks a question, they are seeking more knowledge on a subject, to gain assistance with an issue they need help with. What they don't need is a rude person asking for help with understanding the original question. How dumb is that????
On the other hand, if you have problems with catalog issues, there are plenty of catalogs available on the internet that are very handy for use and many are used by SOR people everyday and believe it or not, a lot of catalogs on sale through many sites also. Most of us have use of a lot of those catalogs since we have been collecting stamps a long time, collecting several different countries that we always need information about and they come in handy for any tidbits of information on a lot of occasions.
Mike
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01:28:38pm
re: Canadian imperfs
@CapeStampMan
Simple solution, if you see I posted a reply, do not read it!
1898
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re: Canadian imperfs
An interesting question Mike(Capestampman). Thank you Roy and Sheepshanks for some excellent information.
Let's take the squabbling off line guys.
Tim
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06:02:12pm
re: Canadian imperfs
@auldstampguy
Good point, lets get back to the topic!!!
1898
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re: Canadian imperfs
Tim, not sure I helped, maybe added to the confusion, Roy did all the correct explaining and now we are all somewhat wiser. (Hopefully).
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Aug 2023
12:48:28pm
re: Canadian imperfs
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/361591391702
Just in case someone wanted to check out what the actual series of pairs looks like. Since I had already looked at it I was offered it at a price of $2822.21 USD. This doesn't show up in the link so you would have to send me the money if you are interested!! Please don't send cash, I'll ask the seller to get in touch with you!
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09 Aug 2023
01:02:09pm
re: Canadian imperfs
Note the 2c is gummed, so it is not 90c from Plate 2, it is 90A from the issue of 100,000. I did not check to see if his quoted catalog value correctly adjusts for this, as I did not notice if he specified which catalog the quoted C.V. was from.
Roy
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Aug 2023
02:10:10pm
re: Canadian imperfs
He/she does call it 90A (actually 90a) but from what I can see the only way to tell 90A apart from 90c is whether the stamp is type I or type II and looking at the pictures the main difference there seems to be the cross hatching. I never even noticed 90c until you pointed it out. If anyone was going to spend that amount of money they would be much more likely to do so if the set included 90c. And also a certificate wouldn't hurt even though the stamps look fine, but almost anything can be faked now-a-days with a good enough printer. At least he seems to allow returns!! I would love to have that set, and after all I paid more than that for BC#1, but you can't go nuts every time you see something you want!! If I were serious about it, the fact that there was no certificate and that it had 90A instead of 90c would turn me away!
Edit: As to price. Using my 2023 Unitrade with 90A and the highest quality (VF) for each mint pair the price works out to $4950 CD which works out to $6600 USD using today's rate. So maybe he was considering 90A and not 90c.
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09 Aug 2023
02:37:49pm
re: Canadian imperfs
"the only way to tell 90A apart from 90c is whether the stamp is type I or type II "
That, plus the fact that 90c and all the other imperfs from the "former Postmaster-General's estate" were ungummed sheets. He states that: "#90a Is Original Gum Never Hinged", thus 90A from the issue of 100,000 that didn't sell out until 10 years after Edward VII's passing.
"price works out to $4950 CD which works out to $6600 USD using today's rate. "
Afraid you have that exchange rate backwards. CAD$4950 is equivalent US$3695 today at C$1.34 = US$1.00
Roy
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09 Aug 2023
02:53:28pm
re: Canadian imperfs
Sorry Roy. Not with it today at all!! That makes a huge difference, obviously!! That's something that I would expect my not so "with it" math students to do!! I guess what I was also thinking is that if you very carefully cleaned the gum off 90A you would have to use type I and II.
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09 Aug 2023
03:19:55pm
re: Canadian imperfs
"I guess what I was also thinking is that if you very carefully cleaned the gum off 90A you would have to use type I and II."
Absolutely correct, and a very good reason to insist on a certificate for a purported 90c. Even if one is confident in one's own abilities to identify the Type, it helps enormously in selling when the time comes for a new owner.
Roy
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