Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Dear Richard,
Given your many years as a dealer and collector, I'd like to tap into some of that wisdom in the best way to handle the passage of personal collections on to heirs.
Specifically, you've come across auction houses you trust, and those you don't.The same with individual dealers and stamp stores. I believe that we at SOR could greatly benefit from your thoughts about how to market an inherited collection, who to consider to get a fair appraisal, who to trust to actually handle the transactions-things along those lines.
Your thoughts about insurances, types of insurance to look at for one's collection, and the folks who you personally are comfortable with along insurance lines for stamp collections.
In general, a primer of sorts that we could refer to when making estate planning decisions.That, my friend, would be a wonderful gift for us all.
Thanks for reading this, and hopefully considering doing it.
Respectfully,
Dan C.
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Well Dan, I am now having my own problem here. My kids, grand kids, family have no interest in the stamps or the postcards, and I thought that I had the postcards taken care of through an auction house Lyn Knight, but they have discontinued post cards, so I am back to square one.
I have not found an auction house that I trust for my foreign stamps, or a dealer. I have been trying to sell the foreign, but the "big shot" dealers want to steal it. I was fortunate enough to find a smaller dealer for my US, who I highly recommend, and will give his name to anyone that asks me for it. I think that the best way to sell a stock such as mine would be to a private collector or a group of people out there say three or four that want to get together and buy a large stock. On a smaller collection, let them contact SOR directly. Hey, this idea just came to me, SOR should have an "Estate" section for the sale. This section to be used only to sell an estate, everything at one shot, & not to be used to piecemeal out a collection.
I have found that if I can live another twelve years, I can make very, very much more than I am asking for my stamps. If I do not make it to 100, then I have asked a very close friend to take all the stamps, keep what he wants for his own collection, and sell off the balance as he sees fit, and give the proceeds to my estate. This will be done by a handshake as I would trust him with my life. As for the postcards, I am still looking for an auction house, otherwise they would also go to my friend.
If the collection is small, say under $10,000.00, then I would suggest contacting the APS, and see what they come up with.
As for insurance, I suggest contacting Collectibles Insurance Services, Dan Walker at 888-837-9537 or go to INFO@INSURECOLLECTIBLES.COM
I have been using this company for many years, and found that prices are fair, payments fast, service is excellent.You can mention my name as reference. I do not get anything extra for that, and you do not get anything cheaper. It is just them to know how you found them.
I used to use Hugh Wood Co, but they are expensive, slow pay, and have many restrictions.
If anyone has any questions I would be glad to answer them, if I can.
PS: Hey Dan, want to buy a collection?
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Correction on insurance company email. It should be
INFO@COLLECTINSURE.COM
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My collection is an heirlom for my children. Just as I have my great-grandmother's bible my stamp collection is not for sale. Regardless of value my family knows the work I put into it's creation and will keep it for future generations to enjoy. I do not expect my kids to continue the collecting part but I'm sure they will respect my wishes and never sell it. My father started me into collecting and as a tribute to him I will always keep in the family. Perry
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I am a member of the American Philatelic Society Estate Advisory Service, and would like to offer some information on this topic. Here is a link to the APS web page with information on this service:
http://www.stamps.org/Services/ser_estateadvice.htm
This service is available to the family or heirs of an APS member who has passed on to that portion of the sky where all stamps are MNH or if used easily soak off paper with the water in the clouds, and there are no forgeries.
The link takes you to a page where there are many different items, including information on the Estate Advisory Service, and how to plan and prepare your philatelic estate. You do not have to be a member of the APS to view this information, but you do have to be a member to have an adviser meet with your loved ones after you've moved on.
I can tell you that it is not an easy thing to do, meeting with the family as emotions are high, and often they have unrealistic expectations regarding the true value of the collection that they have inherited. Collectors will do well to educate their family about the collection's true value. I know we sometimes don't want a spouse to know how much we paid for that $5 Columbian, but it will make it easier for everyone concerned when the time comes. The advisers do not purchase the collection, but will offer a high-level appraisal and give some recommendations on how to dispose of it or even how to continue it in part or total. There usually is no fee for the service. Any fees have to be agreed upon in advance by the family, such as reimbursement for travel costs. An in-depth appraisal can be arranged, if requested by the family, and there generally will be a charge for that.
When someone requests assistance, the APS sends them a letter containing a list of three advisers who live in the family's general area. The letter also has the code of ethics that all advisers have agreed to abide by. The family picks one or all of the advisers, makes contact, and sets up an appointment for the adviser to come to their location to review the collection. When completed, the family files a report with the APS, and so does the adviser.
I try to get as much information as possible from the family before making the trip so that I will know what material to bring to help me, or perhaps the collection is of a type that I am not familiar and would have to pass on the request. The evaluation can take a day or more depending on the size of the collection and how it is organized. Collectors should have their collections well organized, and an inventory list of any kind would be most helpful and save the adviser (who does this strictly on a voluntary basis) valuable time. I have found that the longer I am in someone's home going through the collection, it brings back memories of their loved one, and of course emotions start running. Help us get in and out as easily as possible minimizing the stress on the family and the adviser.
I hope this helps, and I know that the APS link will give you some good information.
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I get many requests from heirs of stamp collectors who are struggling to find out what their inherited collection is worth, and how best to dispose of it. I get so many requests, in fact, that in self defence I wrote an article about the topic. Although it is aimed at British Columbians (I recommend dealers they can talk with), there is also a lot of basic information about stamp collecting, with emphasis on evaluation. The article is available on-line, through the web site of the BC Philatelic Society: "What to do when you inherit stamps".
Michael is certainly correct about the high expectations non-collectors have when it comes to the value of stamps. More difficult still is convincing them that stamp dealers are not the thieves that they believe them to be.
My advice must be worthwhile for some people, because they contact me to tell me how pleased they were to work with a dealer I recommended, and that they are completely satisfied with the outcome.
Bob Ingraham
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Dear All,
Much interesting stuff to think about. Michael's post was both timely and informative. Very much appreciated and will be able to be referenced by many both now & later. Thanks again to you all.
Dan C.
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Dear Michael & Bob,
You two seem to be naturals for dispensing the kind of information that our membership might find useful around estate planning time. Could we impose by having you available when/if needed?
Dan C.
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Certainly
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08:49:37am
Warning Klaxons are sounding !!!! Alert, alert, alert !!!
.
" ...If I do not make it to 100, then I have asked a very close friend to take all the stamps, keep what he wants for his own collection, and sell off the balance as he sees fit, and give the proceeds to my estate. This will be done by a handshake as I would trust him with my life. ...
.
Trusting a friend with your life is one thing, Richaard, but trusting everyone else to abide by what you, or your friend feels that handshake implies is beyond silly. You need to put your wishes in writing, have them signed in front of witnesses and the whole idea notorized, preferably as an integral part of your will.
All you need is for your great Aunt Penelope's second nephew by her third husband's sister to crawl out of the woodwork and that whole handshake deal will crumble before you do. Trust me, when there is the scent of money involved, the potential for that to happen becomes so large it approaches inevitability. Especially if someone believes that your collections and accumulations are valueable because they looked things up in the library copy of Scott's catalog or a similar joke book.
All an interested party needs to do is write a letter to the local probate court and ask for an accounting and the crap will hit the proverbial fan. Your friend, acting in good faith and that handshake, could be accused of looting the estate. Even people who mean well become suspicious and somewhat unreasonable when a significant amount of money is involved.
You need a will, establishing an executor for your estate, a back-up executor in case the primary desigated executor predeceases you and an explanation of your wishes for both the philatelic component of your estate and any other important assets. While almost any intelligent literate person could write a decent will, there are some important elements that need to be included, so for almost everyone your will needs to be at least reviewed by someone with the appropriate legal knowledge fo your County, State or Province.
Properly draw up, that document can be the best investment you have ever made.
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Open Letter to President SOR,
Dear David-
Would you think it appropriate to have available knowledgeable Estate Planning advisers for our group? Their services offered as a function of SOR membership, on behalf of the members?
If so, I'd like to propose that Michael and Bob be invited to man that post.
Assuming your agreement as to the value of the intended service, would this need to go through the VC in a formal way, or are you comfortable in appointing them to the position?
If I'm out of bounds in proposing this in this way I apologize in advance.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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Dan
how about we discuss this off line to see what all is intended, etc.
No good intention is ever out of bounds; not all, however, are practical. Let's see how this fits. Why don't you write me what you intend, its limits, the services provided, etc., and we'll see how it fits.
David
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Although I have written an article intended to provide information and help to people who have inherited stamp collections, I cannot in any way be considered an "estate advisor," and certainly don't want people to think I are one! In other words, Estate Advisor R Not Me! Thank you for thinking so highly of me, but I must decline the offer!
Stamporama is not and never really has been in the business of providing anything but opportunities for collectors to communicate with other collectors and the means by which they can sell unwanted stamps through the auction or trade them through contacts in the Discussion Board. I don't think that we should even pretend that the organization as such is in the business of providing what amounts to professional advice, especially when it comes to financial planning, which is what estate advice is.
Bob
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Dear Bob,
Your statements are, as usual, quite accurate technically. And of course the in depth specifics of each particular unique situation would be beyond the scope of the proposed estate adviser. This was meant to be an intermediate step to assist those who might feel the need to tap into more experienced folk,with the opportunity to do so within the SOR itself. Nothing with legal limitations was intended.
As for your article, to my mind it would be a perfect addition to our archives, again as general info to assist.(Of course, Ralph will be the final word on this- I'm just a gad fly)
I personally would have no problem in reaching out privately to you and others for information I might need, but others are somewhat hesitant to do so. Having this as a 'perk' would make it easier for them I thought.
David, like yourself, is focused on the larger picture and we'll be chatting offline about the ramifications. Your thoughts, as always, are most valuable.
Dan C.
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I don't have any problem discussing this on a high level. I am not an attorney, I am a contract manager and a writer, so when things get to the legal arena, one needs to contact an attorney. With that in mind, nothing that I post should be considered or construed to be legal advice. If you need legal advice, you need to talk to an attorney.
(Message edited by michael78651 on February 21, 2011)
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Richaard, I believe you really need to learn alot about how things work. You seem to rely on your "gut" more than you should. I can tell you this that without you specifically having an attachment that states that your collection goes to your friend, the collection actually becomes part of your estate and you kinfolk have rights to equal shares of that collection, not your friend. Your friend could wind up getting sued for 100% of the proceeds of any stamps sold and for any stamps he removes from the collection without the permission of the executor of your estate. As I said before, do your research and communicate with professionals. The actions that you have posted that you intend to do could actually end up hurting many people, whether you intended for that to happen or not.
I know I just posted that I am not an attorney, but what I just posted is information that I obtained from an estate attorney.
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My friend is a well known lawyer, and mentioned all this to me, and I thank you for taking the time to write this.
Richard
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11:07:17am
One of the interesting things about lawyers is that they tend to specialize in certain areas of law and while their license allows them free reign, they are often quite incompetent in areas that they only vaguely recall from some class in law school.
Forty years ago I went to a property closing with my attorney and was surprised that the seller had retained a locally famous former state assemblyman who had not been re-elected earlier that year. Apparently he was known to the seller's family and had joined a local firm on the presteige of his name regognition. In my opinion despite his law degree I knew more and had more experience in real estate transactions. During the final negotiations of the closing this lawyer missed several items as we set up and implemented the final agreement as to who for paid what taxes, assessments and closing fees, I almost wanted to tell him what should have been his business. Twice my attorney nudged his foot into my leg to remind me to just sit there and stay quiet.
The moral of the story is to choose a lawyer who knows what he is doing, not a friend or relative who is there as a favor.
.
In the situation Richaard mentions it is hard to accept that a competent estate lawyer would agree to a "handshake agreement" that could bring him sanctions from the Bar Association, if not criminal charges.
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Open Letter to Richaard
Dear Richard,
Given your many years as a dealer and collector, I'd like to tap into some of that wisdom in the best way to handle the passage of personal collections on to heirs.
Specifically, you've come across auction houses you trust, and those you don't.The same with individual dealers and stamp stores. I believe that we at SOR could greatly benefit from your thoughts about how to market an inherited collection, who to consider to get a fair appraisal, who to trust to actually handle the transactions-things along those lines.
Your thoughts about insurances, types of insurance to look at for one's collection, and the folks who you personally are comfortable with along insurance lines for stamp collections.
In general, a primer of sorts that we could refer to when making estate planning decisions.That, my friend, would be a wonderful gift for us all.
Thanks for reading this, and hopefully considering doing it.
Respectfully,
Dan C.
Login to Like
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re: Estate Planning
Well Dan, I am now having my own problem here. My kids, grand kids, family have no interest in the stamps or the postcards, and I thought that I had the postcards taken care of through an auction house Lyn Knight, but they have discontinued post cards, so I am back to square one.
I have not found an auction house that I trust for my foreign stamps, or a dealer. I have been trying to sell the foreign, but the "big shot" dealers want to steal it. I was fortunate enough to find a smaller dealer for my US, who I highly recommend, and will give his name to anyone that asks me for it. I think that the best way to sell a stock such as mine would be to a private collector or a group of people out there say three or four that want to get together and buy a large stock. On a smaller collection, let them contact SOR directly. Hey, this idea just came to me, SOR should have an "Estate" section for the sale. This section to be used only to sell an estate, everything at one shot, & not to be used to piecemeal out a collection.
I have found that if I can live another twelve years, I can make very, very much more than I am asking for my stamps. If I do not make it to 100, then I have asked a very close friend to take all the stamps, keep what he wants for his own collection, and sell off the balance as he sees fit, and give the proceeds to my estate. This will be done by a handshake as I would trust him with my life. As for the postcards, I am still looking for an auction house, otherwise they would also go to my friend.
If the collection is small, say under $10,000.00, then I would suggest contacting the APS, and see what they come up with.
As for insurance, I suggest contacting Collectibles Insurance Services, Dan Walker at 888-837-9537 or go to INFO@INSURECOLLECTIBLES.COM
I have been using this company for many years, and found that prices are fair, payments fast, service is excellent.You can mention my name as reference. I do not get anything extra for that, and you do not get anything cheaper. It is just them to know how you found them.
I used to use Hugh Wood Co, but they are expensive, slow pay, and have many restrictions.
If anyone has any questions I would be glad to answer them, if I can.
PS: Hey Dan, want to buy a collection?
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re: Estate Planning
Correction on insurance company email. It should be
INFO@COLLECTINSURE.COM
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re: Estate Planning
My collection is an heirlom for my children. Just as I have my great-grandmother's bible my stamp collection is not for sale. Regardless of value my family knows the work I put into it's creation and will keep it for future generations to enjoy. I do not expect my kids to continue the collecting part but I'm sure they will respect my wishes and never sell it. My father started me into collecting and as a tribute to him I will always keep in the family. Perry
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10:19:53pm
re: Estate Planning
I am a member of the American Philatelic Society Estate Advisory Service, and would like to offer some information on this topic. Here is a link to the APS web page with information on this service:
http://www.stamps.org/Services/ser_estateadvice.htm
This service is available to the family or heirs of an APS member who has passed on to that portion of the sky where all stamps are MNH or if used easily soak off paper with the water in the clouds, and there are no forgeries.
The link takes you to a page where there are many different items, including information on the Estate Advisory Service, and how to plan and prepare your philatelic estate. You do not have to be a member of the APS to view this information, but you do have to be a member to have an adviser meet with your loved ones after you've moved on.
I can tell you that it is not an easy thing to do, meeting with the family as emotions are high, and often they have unrealistic expectations regarding the true value of the collection that they have inherited. Collectors will do well to educate their family about the collection's true value. I know we sometimes don't want a spouse to know how much we paid for that $5 Columbian, but it will make it easier for everyone concerned when the time comes. The advisers do not purchase the collection, but will offer a high-level appraisal and give some recommendations on how to dispose of it or even how to continue it in part or total. There usually is no fee for the service. Any fees have to be agreed upon in advance by the family, such as reimbursement for travel costs. An in-depth appraisal can be arranged, if requested by the family, and there generally will be a charge for that.
When someone requests assistance, the APS sends them a letter containing a list of three advisers who live in the family's general area. The letter also has the code of ethics that all advisers have agreed to abide by. The family picks one or all of the advisers, makes contact, and sets up an appointment for the adviser to come to their location to review the collection. When completed, the family files a report with the APS, and so does the adviser.
I try to get as much information as possible from the family before making the trip so that I will know what material to bring to help me, or perhaps the collection is of a type that I am not familiar and would have to pass on the request. The evaluation can take a day or more depending on the size of the collection and how it is organized. Collectors should have their collections well organized, and an inventory list of any kind would be most helpful and save the adviser (who does this strictly on a voluntary basis) valuable time. I have found that the longer I am in someone's home going through the collection, it brings back memories of their loved one, and of course emotions start running. Help us get in and out as easily as possible minimizing the stress on the family and the adviser.
I hope this helps, and I know that the APS link will give you some good information.
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re: Estate Planning
I get many requests from heirs of stamp collectors who are struggling to find out what their inherited collection is worth, and how best to dispose of it. I get so many requests, in fact, that in self defence I wrote an article about the topic. Although it is aimed at British Columbians (I recommend dealers they can talk with), there is also a lot of basic information about stamp collecting, with emphasis on evaluation. The article is available on-line, through the web site of the BC Philatelic Society: "What to do when you inherit stamps".
Michael is certainly correct about the high expectations non-collectors have when it comes to the value of stamps. More difficult still is convincing them that stamp dealers are not the thieves that they believe them to be.
My advice must be worthwhile for some people, because they contact me to tell me how pleased they were to work with a dealer I recommended, and that they are completely satisfied with the outcome.
Bob Ingraham
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re: Estate Planning
Dear All,
Much interesting stuff to think about. Michael's post was both timely and informative. Very much appreciated and will be able to be referenced by many both now & later. Thanks again to you all.
Dan C.
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re: Estate Planning
Dear Michael & Bob,
You two seem to be naturals for dispensing the kind of information that our membership might find useful around estate planning time. Could we impose by having you available when/if needed?
Dan C.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Feb 2011
08:49:37am
re: Estate Planning
Warning Klaxons are sounding !!!! Alert, alert, alert !!!
.
" ...If I do not make it to 100, then I have asked a very close friend to take all the stamps, keep what he wants for his own collection, and sell off the balance as he sees fit, and give the proceeds to my estate. This will be done by a handshake as I would trust him with my life. ...
.
Trusting a friend with your life is one thing, Richaard, but trusting everyone else to abide by what you, or your friend feels that handshake implies is beyond silly. You need to put your wishes in writing, have them signed in front of witnesses and the whole idea notorized, preferably as an integral part of your will.
All you need is for your great Aunt Penelope's second nephew by her third husband's sister to crawl out of the woodwork and that whole handshake deal will crumble before you do. Trust me, when there is the scent of money involved, the potential for that to happen becomes so large it approaches inevitability. Especially if someone believes that your collections and accumulations are valueable because they looked things up in the library copy of Scott's catalog or a similar joke book.
All an interested party needs to do is write a letter to the local probate court and ask for an accounting and the crap will hit the proverbial fan. Your friend, acting in good faith and that handshake, could be accused of looting the estate. Even people who mean well become suspicious and somewhat unreasonable when a significant amount of money is involved.
You need a will, establishing an executor for your estate, a back-up executor in case the primary desigated executor predeceases you and an explanation of your wishes for both the philatelic component of your estate and any other important assets. While almost any intelligent literate person could write a decent will, there are some important elements that need to be included, so for almost everyone your will needs to be at least reviewed by someone with the appropriate legal knowledge fo your County, State or Province.
Properly draw up, that document can be the best investment you have ever made.
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re: Estate Planning
Open Letter to President SOR,
Dear David-
Would you think it appropriate to have available knowledgeable Estate Planning advisers for our group? Their services offered as a function of SOR membership, on behalf of the members?
If so, I'd like to propose that Michael and Bob be invited to man that post.
Assuming your agreement as to the value of the intended service, would this need to go through the VC in a formal way, or are you comfortable in appointing them to the position?
If I'm out of bounds in proposing this in this way I apologize in advance.
All good thoughts,
Dan C.
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re: Estate Planning
Dan
how about we discuss this off line to see what all is intended, etc.
No good intention is ever out of bounds; not all, however, are practical. Let's see how this fits. Why don't you write me what you intend, its limits, the services provided, etc., and we'll see how it fits.
David
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re: Estate Planning
Although I have written an article intended to provide information and help to people who have inherited stamp collections, I cannot in any way be considered an "estate advisor," and certainly don't want people to think I are one! In other words, Estate Advisor R Not Me! Thank you for thinking so highly of me, but I must decline the offer!
Stamporama is not and never really has been in the business of providing anything but opportunities for collectors to communicate with other collectors and the means by which they can sell unwanted stamps through the auction or trade them through contacts in the Discussion Board. I don't think that we should even pretend that the organization as such is in the business of providing what amounts to professional advice, especially when it comes to financial planning, which is what estate advice is.
Bob
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re: Estate Planning
Dear Bob,
Your statements are, as usual, quite accurate technically. And of course the in depth specifics of each particular unique situation would be beyond the scope of the proposed estate adviser. This was meant to be an intermediate step to assist those who might feel the need to tap into more experienced folk,with the opportunity to do so within the SOR itself. Nothing with legal limitations was intended.
As for your article, to my mind it would be a perfect addition to our archives, again as general info to assist.(Of course, Ralph will be the final word on this- I'm just a gad fly)
I personally would have no problem in reaching out privately to you and others for information I might need, but others are somewhat hesitant to do so. Having this as a 'perk' would make it easier for them I thought.
David, like yourself, is focused on the larger picture and we'll be chatting offline about the ramifications. Your thoughts, as always, are most valuable.
Dan C.
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02:15:06pm
re: Estate Planning
I don't have any problem discussing this on a high level. I am not an attorney, I am a contract manager and a writer, so when things get to the legal arena, one needs to contact an attorney. With that in mind, nothing that I post should be considered or construed to be legal advice. If you need legal advice, you need to talk to an attorney.
(Message edited by michael78651 on February 21, 2011)
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02:20:47pm
re: Estate Planning
Richaard, I believe you really need to learn alot about how things work. You seem to rely on your "gut" more than you should. I can tell you this that without you specifically having an attachment that states that your collection goes to your friend, the collection actually becomes part of your estate and you kinfolk have rights to equal shares of that collection, not your friend. Your friend could wind up getting sued for 100% of the proceeds of any stamps sold and for any stamps he removes from the collection without the permission of the executor of your estate. As I said before, do your research and communicate with professionals. The actions that you have posted that you intend to do could actually end up hurting many people, whether you intended for that to happen or not.
I know I just posted that I am not an attorney, but what I just posted is information that I obtained from an estate attorney.
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re: Estate Planning
My friend is a well known lawyer, and mentioned all this to me, and I thank you for taking the time to write this.
Richard
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Feb 2011
11:07:17am
re: Estate Planning
One of the interesting things about lawyers is that they tend to specialize in certain areas of law and while their license allows them free reign, they are often quite incompetent in areas that they only vaguely recall from some class in law school.
Forty years ago I went to a property closing with my attorney and was surprised that the seller had retained a locally famous former state assemblyman who had not been re-elected earlier that year. Apparently he was known to the seller's family and had joined a local firm on the presteige of his name regognition. In my opinion despite his law degree I knew more and had more experience in real estate transactions. During the final negotiations of the closing this lawyer missed several items as we set up and implemented the final agreement as to who for paid what taxes, assessments and closing fees, I almost wanted to tell him what should have been his business. Twice my attorney nudged his foot into my leg to remind me to just sit there and stay quiet.
The moral of the story is to choose a lawyer who knows what he is doing, not a friend or relative who is there as a favor.
.
In the situation Richaard mentions it is hard to accept that a competent estate lawyer would agree to a "handshake agreement" that could bring him sanctions from the Bar Association, if not criminal charges.
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