Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
04:08:45pm
\image {prisonerFront}
\image {prisonerBack}
Check this link for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Forrest
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on February 06, 2010)
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04:14:57pm
Let me try the image again... How come I can never get this right?
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Hi Bob,
This is quite an interesting piece of postal history. The date on the front, December 16, 1942, indicates that it must be a very early POW letter (if it is a POW letter). German POWs did not begin to arrive in the US in great numbers until May 1943 upon capitulation of the German Africa Corps. So maybe it is in fact mail from a civilian detainee.
The POW number ISN-3-29-G-343-CI usually would give some insight into what we have here. ISN is Internment Serial Number. The G is for German (I = Italian etc.). The first digits usually should give an indication for the area where the POW was processed, i.e., captured (e.g., 81 = North Africa). I have only very scant references for POW mail and this exact number prefix is not listed -- maybe because it is so early. Also note that the actual POW number has only three digits (I have only seen 5 and 6 digit numbers otherwise). I don't have a definitive answer what the CI stands for -- but Civilian Internee looks like a a good possibility, given that the letter does not quite fit with the bulk of regular German POW mail.
The letter was censored by the censor office in in New York, where censorship of POW mail was centralized (the censor number 179 was assigned to that office -- I have a list for those numbers.) Cancellation was almost certainly in New York, but the postmarking dial of the cancellation machine was removed.
Most POW mail was sent home. There were restrictions on the number of letters/postcards allowed. Domestic usage of a POW letter is certainly unusal. Later the POWs were supplied with pre-printed forms for corrrespondence. So, the letter is also unusal in the respect of being a regular envelope having the name of the Camp printed on the back. Really a nice item. In sum, a lot of factors speak for Internee rather than POW mail, but can't tell for sure. More research would certainly be worthwhile.
Arno
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10:46:35pm
Thanks Arno... You have filled in many of the blank spaces. I'm going to keep researching. The reason I purchased this cover is because I live in Glen Ridge, NJ.
Bob
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05:39:39pm
Reattaching Images.
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Great cover, Bob, and very interesting history lesson, Arno! Thanks for sharing!
Lars
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Very Nice, keep on researching..theres bound to be more to be uncovered !!
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Were not some Germans in the US detained in a similar manner as the Japanese?
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i think not, Michael, although you'll enjoy this bit of history on German internees in Texas: https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/quwby. it's just not the same; these were deportees, sailors, and such, not resident families.
A second source cites 11,000 total German internees by war's end, but i'm guessing that's probably mostly of the sort quoted above. http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/8131/why-were-there-no-internment-camps-for-german-american-citizens-in-usa-during-ww
It would be an interesting exploration; it seems much work has already been done here, but a cursory reading also shows lots of agendas at play to obfuscate the reality. I found a second source that quotes 10,935 internees, again a small number.
David
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Dave, thanks for that link. I have it bookmarked.
Here's a link to a prisoner of war camp that was located in Hearne, TX.
http://camphearne.com/
It took a long time, but a professor at Texas A&M fought long and hard to get the land secure and some rebuilding of the camp done, turning it into a museum. At the Hearne Chamber of Commerce is a model that was constructed by women inmates at the county jail that shows the entire POW camp. I have been to the camp several times. It is only 90 minutes from me, plus it's a great train watching location!
While Crystal City, TX may be the spinach capital of the country, I can fully understand why there were no escapes from the internment camp there. If they got away, there's nothing around there!
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Yes, there were also German internment camps here in the US. Check out the following article about it:
Mike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-American_internment
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-31 06:28:20)
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German American internment camps ? they must have held 30 percent of the population !
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02:00:29am
When I researched WWII pow camps in the US as well as Canada, it blew my mind to see the actual number. Ironic as it may seem, it makes perfect sense. Germany occupied the majority of Europe. As the allies came in and captured German pows, where were they going to put them? They certainly couldn't create camps in territory that was still occupied by Germany. So they were shipped to North America. The majority of the pow camps were in the US, in terms of actual number of camps as well as the number of prisoners.
What surprises me is the date that some of those camps were created. A number of which have since served as US military training locations. The US primarily fought the Pacific war, whereas Royal forces (which includes England, Canada and Newfoundland amongst others were the earliest to fight Germany alongside France. The dates that some of the German pow camps were created on American soil does not correspond to when the US became a part of the war in Europe. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So my assumption (not knowledge) is that US pow camps with German prisoners could in fact have been Germans captured by the Royal forces and other early allies (France of course ranking at the top).
It appears that German pow camps on American soil significantly differed from those in Canada where for the most part, prisoners were sentenced to hard labour, not an aspect of many US German pow camps. In any case it is quite obvious these pows were treated significantly different from allies pow captured by the Germans, endured torture, often sent to concentration camps, commando units were executed and there were also some actual pow camps.
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Kelly,
i don't think this is fully correct. I am no expert on any of the things I relate here, but familiar enough that I feel comfortable discussing it.
A good overview of US POWs can be found here: http://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/SpecialReports/POWCY04Final4-7-05forweb.pdf. it's important to see where the prisoners were taken. You see the two single biggest takes were the Philippines and Ardennes, about 25,000 each. In the rest of the war in the Pacific, less than a 1,000 additional US men are taken, primarily because we were the attackers, pushing teh enemy who had neither the inclination nor the ability to take prisoners. Of the total 130,000 US prisoners taken about 15,000 died as POWs, the vast majority those taken in the Philippines. US servicemen taken in the Philippines died at nearly 40% compared to an overall rate of 11% (9% if we remove those taken in the Philippines).
I bring this up to showcase the relatively low number of US allied deaths in Germany, compared to Soviet POW rates, 3.5 million deceased out of 5.7 million, or 61%, or nearly 50% higher than the atrocious rates suffered by US under the Japanese.
So, there WAS tremendous cruelty by the Wehrmacht against Soviet POWs, but not against Allied POWs. Hitler had nothing but disdain for Slavs (including erstwhile allies in the Ukraine and other liberated Soviet republics) but great respect for the British.
as to US POW camps, i can find no listing for any that existed prior to 1942; and the British were taking huge numbers of Italian POWs in their Africa campaign in early 1941. It looks like the first US POW camps started in 1942, with most operational in 1943 and beyond. Most Axis prisoners would be from the Africa campaigns, and later the Sicily and Italian campaigns.
As to where the US fought, that's not quite true. We had 62 Army divisions in European theatre compared to 21 in the Pacific (although there were also Marine divisions in Pacific, and none in Europe).
The largest contributors to the war on the Allied side are, of course, the Soviets, followed by US and, drum roll, Indian forces. There's a great article on this, highlighting the overhighlighted role American forces played. US dominates in Europe, but only at war's end. Take a look at http://rethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/2011/02/statistical-confusion-whose-troops.html
David
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-31 09:27:19)
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There is no way that the US would have been able, under the Articles of War, to hold POWs captured by another country when the US was a neutral country. The US would have had to return the POWs to their own country, if they wanted to return. In any event it would have been a major international incident.
The purpose of bringing the soldiers captured by US troops to the US was to take the POWs totally out of the war theater. With the war being fought in Europe, German and Italian troops sitting in a POW camp in the US were unable to cause serious problems for the Allied forces fighting in Europe. Also, President Roosevelt wanted to use the POWs to replace the loss in the labor force caused by men going off to fight.
While it is the sworn duty of soldiers to attempt to escape and harass their captors, my understanding is that POWs brought to the US generally were well treated and responded in kind. That doesn't mean there weren't escape attempts.
http://voices.yahoo.com/german-wwii-pows-escaped-6370108.html
The largest escape from a US POW camp was in Phoenix, Arizona, where a 25-man breakout occurred lead by a German U-Boat commander.
http://www.examiner.com/article/german-pows-escape-from-phoenix
The History Channel did a documentary on this incident. It is considered to be the German version of "The Great Escape".
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i agree with Michael on America's declared neutrality, although we made no attempts to hide our preferences for British interests nor our antipathy for Japanese'.
Japan's strikes at Hawaii, Midway, Philippines, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Dutch Indies was in large response a frustration with US, British, and Dutch refusals to sell them oil and rubber.
And America was clearly selling Britain arms AND escorting them as far as Iceland, where they were turned over to British-flagged escorts, even before declared hostilities.
Still, holding combatants' troops as POWs might have been a tad overreaching, even for the US.
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07:52:52pm
The Japanese certainly went about venting their frustration in an extreme fashion. Sorry, cannot forget, cannot forgive!
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i like their trucks !!
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Bobby, it wasn't so much frustration as their perception that a soldier must fight to the death. Any soldier who surrendered was not a soldier, and was treated as dirt. They did, however, inflict many atrocities on not just the POWs they captured, but also civilians in the conquered lands.
The US thought that by treating the POWs in the US well, that US POWs, particularly in German hands, would also be treated well.
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so the odd thing about the Japanese response is that they played Wainwright's card, indicating that as overall commander, he MUST order his troops to surrender or those already captive would be executed. So he did, and the bulk of American and Philippino soldiers under his command did as ordered.
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Yes, and many of those prisoners died while in captivity too. The Japanese learned quickly that the Allies preferred life over an "honorable death", and exploited it. (Sounds Klingonish if you ask me...)
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yes, 10,000 of the 25,000 surrendered in the Philippines died in Japanese custody.
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War is a brutal thing..reading a book by John Prebble called Mutiny about how the Scottish Chiefs in the mid 1700s sold their men to the British army.
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Funny, that, Phil, because about the same time the Scottish regiments, notably the 42nd, 71st, and 74th, were among the most feared, and often at the center of any fight.
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01:46:22pm
" .... the US was a neutral country. ...."
October 31st is an interesting date to mention the US being neutral or that the US Navy protected convoys to what was called the "MOMP", (Mid-Ocesn Meeting Place) somewhere south of Iceland.
I meant to make a note about it being the anniversary of the loss of the "Good Ship
Reuben James," but have been at times off line for a day or so.
I wrote an article about that incident and the 1991 stamp issued to commemorate it a few years ago;
The sinking of the USS Reuben James DD-245
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David, being feared does not necessarily mean they were happy..read Culloden or Mutiny !
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I found the following Kriegsgefangenenlager (prisoner of war camp) Christmas card at my local stamp fair this past weekend. This is part of a somewhat new collecting avenue, even though I have had an interest in German related mail for a while.
Researching this sort of material seems to be something of a challenge, hindered firstly by the language and then the difficulty of finding the few records that exist:
The card front is in itself intriguing. The Germans must have been quite accommodating to allow standard issue POW postcards to be printed in this way. As yet I don’t know if this was a common practice in POW camps.
The message reads:
"Tho’ barbed strands hold us far apart
Our thoughts rise high and clear
To greet those who lie near our heart
With love with hope with cheer"
The card was sent by a Sgt John S Stewart to a Miss A Stewart in Glamorgan, England (sic) and censored by camp Examiner II. Unfortunately the machine applied CDS sheds no light as to when or where this card was posted:
However, from what little I can find about the fieldpost, it was assigned to the camp for only a short while; between 19 July 1941 to 14 February 1942 and thus the card must have been sent Christmas 1941.
It would seem that this particular camp was only assigned a Feldpost number and not given an Oflag or Stalag designation. As yet, I have not been able to find out why this was so, but the dates of use may suggest the camp may not have been permanent.
It appears that the Feldpost 47340 A was assigned to a the 1.– 3. Kompanie Kriegsgefangenen , 48th B.A.B ‘Bau und Arbeits Bataillon’ (prisoner of war construction and labour battalion). Curiously the fieldpost suffix ‘A’ is not mentioned in records.
The actual records found use this format: Stab u. 1.-3. Kompanie Kriegsgefangenen-Bau-u. Arbeits-Bataillon 48. I don’t know what ‘Stab u.’ denotes. Google translate suggest either ‘bar’ or ‘rod’ (too literal). The abbreviated ‘u.’ is no doubt ‘und’.
The actual location of Feldpost 47340 A remains a mystery.
One aspect of this card which amused me, more in irony than humour, is the slogan part of the machine cancel, which would probably have been applied in the main post office close to the camp.
Here’s a clearer image (ignore the CDS part):
Auf Reisen und Wanderungen – Postreisescheck : For travelling and hiking -Travelers cheques.
I’m sure the POW’s would have made a meal of that, had they known.
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"Stab" is 'staff' (thy rod and thy staff comfort me...)
Christmas 1941 - a time, perhaps, when treatment of British NCO POWs was more civilised than it would later become? Note that as NCOs they were put to work, as opposed to the officers, who could lounge about planning tunnel escapes.
This looks like a father's letter to his daughter. Pity that postmark is erased.
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Hello Ningpo,
Stab, as used here, simply means HQ.
BAB 48 apparently was located in Heydebreck, actually Kędzierzyn, Upper Silesia. The Nazis renamed the town for Peter von Heydebreck, a Nazi martyr, so the the city had that name only 1934-1945. There were many labor camps in this area (search for the Blechhammer labor camps) which housed forced laborers primarily for the construction and operations of major chemical plants. POWs were only a small minority.
Below is a clip from a British Red Cross magazine "The Prisoner of War" from April 1943
Edit/add: The town name in the postmark has been purposefully removed. The dumb postmarks of civilian postmarking equipment pressed into Fieldpost service should be listed in the Michel WWII Fieldpost Catalog, which I do not own.
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Thank you for supplying that little gem about the location. The 'censoring' of the CDS of course makes complete sense.
I see the date of the magazine clipping is April 1943. This raises the question of how up to date the information was at publication. Feldpost 27340 was supposedly used elsewhere after 14 February 1942. If the information was quite recent, then would the suffix 'A' have perhaps been used after that date just for the camp in question? In other words, were there two Feldpost 27340 designations. I can't see it myself, as surely this would be confusing.
The only other explanation I can think of is the 'last date of use' for the camp is wrong.
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Just to add a bit of further detail.
Alice Irene Stewart was born 22nd. January 1898 and in 1939 was at the address on envelope as a "paid domestic help" with the Hirst household, he being a wholesale fruit and veg merchant.
John Stanley Stewart was born c 1905, Portsmouth, Hampshire (as was Alice and rest of family), he was in the 3rd or 5th. Tank Battalion and was repatriated by the Red Cross in Poole, Dorset in 1943.
Possibly he is still alive as I have not found a death record for him but Alice died 1976, with the death registered in Pontypool, Gwent.
There are a couple of family trees on Ancestry that connect with the family, his father died before 1911.
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Thank you Sheepshanks for your research. I didn't think for one minute that I would get this far with the card. Ganz toll.
By the way, I just choked when I looked up Rheinlander's book nomination,"Michel Handbuch - Katalog Deutsche Feldpost 1937-1945"....
US$ 341.88 plus shipping. That's for the 2009 edition.
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Ningpo, I have a copy of the families 1911 census entry, pm me if you would like a copy.
Youch on the cost of the book, project Gutenberg does not have copy.
Possible death for John Stewart is 1956 in Surrey.
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Thank you Sir. I'll get back to you later, as I'm off to count sheep!
Just ordered a 1986 hardback edition (not ideal I know) but it was about £15 including shipping. Just a tad cheaper.
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Most impressed by these responses - it's an area in which I have some interest but (as my feeble first-responder effort shows) not a lot of expertise!
As custodians of these pieces of human/postal history, we should, I believe, do our best to find out about the people from whom or to whom they were sent. I have a few similar items, but not the wherewithal to delve much further than a Google search. Do I take it that the websites from which the info on Sgt Stewart and his older sister was obtained are not free to view?
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Guthrum, yes the sites used were Find my Past for the 1939 details and Ancestry for the births/deaths and their public trees for the Red cross detail, both subscription sites.
Limited birth/marriage and death records are available free on Freebmd, but do not contain more than basic detail.(1837-1973 UK)
Familysearch the Mormon centre has billions of worldwide records free to all but nothing much later than about 1850.
There are also a number of Military research sites that are subscription or pay to view.
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I happen to have a similar card in my collection from an American prisoner. The double circle cancel does not disclose a town name, as intended, I suppose. I am not sure where this POW camp was located in Germany.
Linus
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Well this card seems to have been sent from the most famous POW camp of WWII; Stalag Luft III. This is the camp upon which the films 'The Wooden Horse' and 'The Great Escape' were based.
The camp was in the German province of Lower Silesia near the town of Sagan (now Żagań in Poland), 160 kilometres (100 miles) southeast of Berlin. It operated between May 1942 and January 1945.
You may well know this already but each escape attempt resulted in only three prisoners reaching freedom.
The 'Great Escape' attempt, by which 76 prisoners fled the camp through a tunnel, resulted in 73 men being re-captured and of those, 50 were executed.
Stalag Luft III
The card is obviously worth more research.
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Linus,
I've just noticed that in addition to the Mit LuftPost cachet, there are two censor markings (one is probably American) and a nice Taxe Perçue cachet.
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Ningpo,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I was searching on the wrong words, while the answer was right there in front of me. I noticed the other faint markings, also. I read the Wikipedia article and learned that "the great escape" occurred on March 24, 1944 and this postcard was written on March 9, 1944. Very interesting. I recall buying this card at a postcard show in Iowa City, Iowa from a dealer who had boxes and boxes of disorganized common postcards. You had to dig and dig to find a "gem."
Thanks again,
Linus
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This cover, which I found on the internet, shows more clearly some of the markings on Linus's card.
The CDS in particular shows a distinct obliteration of its location. The Taxe Perçue cachet shows 40 pfennigs 'collected'. This seems to be the same rate on all examples I've seen around this time.
A circular US censor marking has been applied in this instance, in addition to the German one.
Notice the different camp designation; the word Luftwaffe has been omitted and replaced with the term M.-Stammlager, which is an abbreviation of 'Mannschafts-Stammlager'.
The term Stalag itself comes from a contraction of 'Kriegsgefangenen-Mannschafts-Stammlager'.
Edit:
There is a US based seller on eBay, who has a substantial amount of prisoner related covers, including the Stalag Luft III I posted here and others from concentration camps. The prices are not for the faint hearted.
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"Just to add a bit of further detail.
Alice Irene Stewart was born 22nd. January 1898 and in 1939 was at the address on envelope as a "paid domestic help" with the Hirst household, he being a wholesale fruit and veg merchant.
John Stanley Stewart was born c 1905, Portsmouth, Hampshire (as was Alice and rest of family), he was in the 3rd or 5th. Tank Battalion and was repatriated by the Red Cross in Poole, Dorset in 1943.
Possibly he is still alive as I have not found a death record for him but Alice died 1976, with the death registered in Pontypool, Gwent.
There are a couple of family trees on Ancestry that connect with the family, his father died before 1911."
Thanks to Sheepshanks sending me a copy of the 1911 census for the family, the writer of the POW card, John Stewart, mailed it to his older sister Alice.
Thanks again Sheepshanks.
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My pleasure, if anyone else wants a lookup of the censuses let me know and I'll see what I can find.
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Regarding the second card from Ralph J Gaston, the following was from Ancestry,
Ralph Jarvis Gaston was born on October 24, 1918, in Hollywood, California, the child of Ralph Smartt and Thelma. He married Amy Jarvis and they had three children together. He also married Jean Hill in Long Beach, California. He died on November 8, 1996, in Knoxville, Tennessee, at the age of 78, and was buried in Johnson City, Tennessee.
He enlisted 18th Aug 1941 In the Air Corps, height 72 inches, weight 160 lbs. He was in camp 013, from around Nov 1941 to about 1945.
As far as the recipient goes, her details are:-
Anna H (Jarvis) was born on September 7, 1877, in California. She married Ira Newton Jarvis about 1903, in Contra Costa County, California. They had one child during their marriage. She died on February 15, 1969, in Richmond, California, at the age of 91.
So she would have been in her 60's when he sent the card. Maybe an aunt, family friend, not sure.
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A POW repatriated as early as 1943 would have classified ( by the Germans) as unfit for further military duty i.e. very ill indeed. He would have been a useless mouth to feed in the light of food and other shortages, and that burden might as well be put on the UK.
It should be noted that Germany, like Japan, was not a signatory of the Geneva convention and so theoretically could treat it's prisoners however it liked. However, in general, it's armed forces ( and especially the professional officer corps) treated (western) allied prisoners according to the convention. There were however aberrations, scattered atrocities perpetrated by SS units ( some as early as the 1940 retreat from France), plus events carried out on the personal orders of Hitler ( commandos, great escape recaptures, bomber crews etc). The general breakdown in discipline at the end of the war increased such events by individuals and small groups, plus it should be noted that some deaths of prisoners was contributed to by lack of communication, food and resources generally rather than by gratuitous cruelty - not to mention death at the hands of RAF and USAF bombers while they were being moved.
It also has to be said ( although not officially admitted ) that the odd (revenge) atrocity was carried out by Allied troops. One of the essential ( and more difficult duties) of officers in wartime is to hold the other ranks in check when prisoners are taken - and feelings are running high.
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Although not true POW mail, I felt this was a steal for a £1 coin.
It would seem that the Town Hall in Macclesfield, Cheshire were trying to locate a soldier of the 2nd Battalion ('D' Company ?), the Cheshire Regiment, assigned to Middle East Forces.
Although the return date on the reverse is unclear, the signed pencil notation on the front suggests it took about 13 weeks to find that Private Bootomley (probably Bottomley) was incarcerated.
I would guess that the two sets of initials in red pen were written by the army officer dealing with the search, as it is in the same pen as the ringed return address. The pencil signature and date might suggest acknowledgement by an official in Macclesfield.
I wonder if this sort of search was a service carried out by the Town Hall, on behalf of worried relatives. The soldier may of course have been an employee of the Town Hall itself:
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I thought I would continue this thread with a scan from my collection of a German officer's POW cover mailed from Camp 191 Great Britain. A Wikipedia search revealed that Camp 191 was actually a mansion named Crewe Hall, near the town of Crewe Green in the county of Cheshire. From the picture on Wikipedia of Crewe Hall, this German officer had it pretty good after his capture. The paper is a slick, finished style of paper stock.
Linus
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I was immediately attracted to the artwork on this newly acquired POW postcard when I saw it listed:
Although I knew the card was unused, I could see it had a tiny cachet on the reverse, which wasn't completely clear, until I scanned it:
So far, I can find only one reference to the "Lady Dodds' Prisoner of War Fund.", which again is on an unused card advertised on a New Zealand stamp site, with the comment, 'not seen this cachet on a postcard before'.
The other reference is to a brown paper package sent by the fund to a POW in Germany in 1918 but with no cachet. This is held by the Imperial War Museum.
Can anyone shed any light on either the card or the fund itself?
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A quick internet search shows a National Archives reference to a "Lady Dodd's Charity" based at Ellesborough near High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire. They hold records of accounts etc from 1616 to 1917.
It was the habit of the more progressive country gentry to set up charities for the improvement and relief of their tenants and servants ( usually administered by their wives).Noblesse oblige and all that. Usually an endowment was set up and the revenue accruing was used for the relief work. Sometimes almshouses were built ( there are in fact "Lady Dodd's Cottages" in Ellesborough - a historic listed building).
Many of these charities still exist today administered by trustees, and funds can be allocated to good works according to the constitution of the fund, sometimes by bodies or individuals applying to the trustees.The charity dating from 1616, the original family could have died out several generations before through lack of a male heir somewhere along the line,leaving the charity in the hands of the local trustees ( Vicar, Doctor,Schoolteacher and similar worthies ), or if the issue were daughters then the family may have carried on with a different surname.
It is very possible that during WW1 some of these funds were allocated to providing "comforts" for Prisoners of War from the locality ( or more generally), and this became an extention of the original charity.
Of course it could be the work of a different Lady Dodd altogether, but the balance of probability is that the lady from Ellesborough ( in 1616) is the original patron. Given access to genealogical records it may be possible to trace the family further ( or maybe locate a different Lady Dodd).Unfortunately the records on line only show the existence of the records and not their content.
Malcolm
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Thank you for that information. I wasn't sure myself if the Lady Dodd to which you refer was the right one, hence my question. I'm rather surprised that I could find very little about her (or the fund). However I didn't spend too much time looking. I'll need to dig a little further.
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I've been searching the Internet again - and I suspect what I have written above is a load of bull..
I have seen a tantalising reference to World War 1 and a Lady Dodds who was obviously a somewhat senior member of the British Red Cross in respect of a report to the BRC. I suspect that this is the Lady Dodds of the fund - particularly as the Imperial War Museum parcel is to a member of a Scottish army regiment ( and a Scot to boot) which probably means that the local charity angle is a dead duck.
A number of the upper middle and upper classes got involved with the Red Cross at a senior level - and it is quite likely that a number of these had their own fund-raising supporters.An e-mail to the archivist at the British Red Cross Society might be beneficiial. With the current interest in World War One it might be the right time.
Sorry about the probable wild goose chase.
Another point worth making It appears that the Lady Dodds is the Prisoner of War Fund while the Buckinghamshire Charity is Lady Dodd's( note the apostrophe )
Malcolm
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No wild goose chase at all. Your suggestion to contact the British Red Cross is a good one, particularly as further digging around on my part produced zilch.
I just find it remarkable that details about such a fund could seemingly disappear into the ether.
The fact that the postcard I bought attracted 10 bids, suggests that others may have spotted the uncommon cachet, together with an unusual design.
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This one has really got my juices going. At the risk of ( yawn yawn) boring you all, further research has revealed the following
(From the British Journal of Nursing 12 June 1915)
The British Prisoner of War Fund has been established under the direction of Lady Dodds at Room 119 at 83 Pall Mall. 1612 boxes ( parcels) have been sent to 42 different prisoner of war camps.
Second is a reference among a number of others on various subjects which may be Red Cross records
... a report received by Lady Dodds about the shooting of a Prisoner of War at Limburg Camp.This could indicate that her interest in POW welfare went beyond parcels.
Thirs is the 1918 King's Birthday Honours of an award of CBE ( Commander of the Order of the British Empire ) Helen,Lady Dodds for services to the Prisoner of War Fund. This is perhaps the most revealing as CBE is one of the higher ranks ( OBE and MBE are lower ). This indicates that her services are of some importance and gravitas. Although the fact that she was an aristocrat may have had some bearing but not decisive.
Incidentally the form of address - Helen, Lady Dodd suggests that she was by then a widow and her son married - as her Daughter in Law would be Lady Dodd.
It is strange that someone of her importance does not appear to have a biography on the internet. A number of the people who appear on the Honours list have a link to a biography.
Malcolm
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"It is strange that someone of her importance does not appear to have a biography on the internet."
That's what puzzled me too. Anyway, thank you Malcolm for finding those snippets. Such information always adds value (not monetary) even to an unused postcard.
It is a pity that the artwork wasn't signed, which would have added even more interest.
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I've just found the same postcard on this site: Picture postcards from the Great War
No cachet in this instance. If this card was actually printed in Germany, how then would my copy have received the Lady Dodds' cachet? Or was there some arrangement where postcards were printed and supplied by organisations in the UK directly to POW camps?
As for the artist; there is a curious reference to the subject of my card, on another earlier one:
Irritatingly, there is no image. However, the artist referred to, is Cecil A Tooke. And that same artist produced this card:
And what appears on the reverse?
A bit of a coincidence, methinks.
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I've now located the postcard image by Cecil A Tooke that was not shown on the Great War postcard site:
Notice the similarity between the scythes and hour glasses used in both postcards and the cobwebs. Could this be the same artist, or a bit of plagiarism?
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I wonder if these postcards with the "Lady Dodds" handstamps were blanks sent out with the parcels. The postcards were obviously produced in Britain as they are inscribed " post card" and not "postkarte". Perhaps the German inscription was meant to allay German sensibilities.
The problem with things so far in the past is that every question answered throws up new questions. Additionally as far as World War 1 is concerned many of the survivors ( and their relatives) were gone before the current interest in genealogy ( for ordinary folk anyway) had taken hold. The sheer volume of lost material must be immense.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
06 Feb 2010
04:08:45pm
Would like to get more info about this cover. My initial thought was that the sender Albert Benz was from the US but he may have been a civilian detainee or German Prisoner of War as Camp Forrest Tennessee became a prisoner of war camp in May of 1942.
\image {prisonerFront}
\image {prisonerBack}
Check this link for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Forrest
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on February 06, 2010)
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
06 Feb 2010
04:14:57pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Let me try the image again... How come I can never get this right?
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Hi Bob,
This is quite an interesting piece of postal history. The date on the front, December 16, 1942, indicates that it must be a very early POW letter (if it is a POW letter). German POWs did not begin to arrive in the US in great numbers until May 1943 upon capitulation of the German Africa Corps. So maybe it is in fact mail from a civilian detainee.
The POW number ISN-3-29-G-343-CI usually would give some insight into what we have here. ISN is Internment Serial Number. The G is for German (I = Italian etc.). The first digits usually should give an indication for the area where the POW was processed, i.e., captured (e.g., 81 = North Africa). I have only very scant references for POW mail and this exact number prefix is not listed -- maybe because it is so early. Also note that the actual POW number has only three digits (I have only seen 5 and 6 digit numbers otherwise). I don't have a definitive answer what the CI stands for -- but Civilian Internee looks like a a good possibility, given that the letter does not quite fit with the bulk of regular German POW mail.
The letter was censored by the censor office in in New York, where censorship of POW mail was centralized (the censor number 179 was assigned to that office -- I have a list for those numbers.) Cancellation was almost certainly in New York, but the postmarking dial of the cancellation machine was removed.
Most POW mail was sent home. There were restrictions on the number of letters/postcards allowed. Domestic usage of a POW letter is certainly unusal. Later the POWs were supplied with pre-printed forms for corrrespondence. So, the letter is also unusal in the respect of being a regular envelope having the name of the Camp printed on the back. Really a nice item. In sum, a lot of factors speak for Internee rather than POW mail, but can't tell for sure. More research would certainly be worthwhile.
Arno
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
06 Feb 2010
10:46:35pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Thanks Arno... You have filled in many of the blank spaces. I'm going to keep researching. The reason I purchased this cover is because I live in Glen Ridge, NJ.
Bob
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
27 Oct 2013
05:39:39pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Reattaching Images.
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Great cover, Bob, and very interesting history lesson, Arno! Thanks for sharing!
Lars
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Very Nice, keep on researching..theres bound to be more to be uncovered !!
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07:00:08pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Were not some Germans in the US detained in a similar manner as the Japanese?
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
i think not, Michael, although you'll enjoy this bit of history on German internees in Texas: https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/quwby. it's just not the same; these were deportees, sailors, and such, not resident families.
A second source cites 11,000 total German internees by war's end, but i'm guessing that's probably mostly of the sort quoted above. http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/8131/why-were-there-no-internment-camps-for-german-american-citizens-in-usa-during-ww
It would be an interesting exploration; it seems much work has already been done here, but a cursory reading also shows lots of agendas at play to obfuscate the reality. I found a second source that quotes 10,935 internees, again a small number.
David
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08:38:54pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Dave, thanks for that link. I have it bookmarked.
Here's a link to a prisoner of war camp that was located in Hearne, TX.
http://camphearne.com/
It took a long time, but a professor at Texas A&M fought long and hard to get the land secure and some rebuilding of the camp done, turning it into a museum. At the Hearne Chamber of Commerce is a model that was constructed by women inmates at the county jail that shows the entire POW camp. I have been to the camp several times. It is only 90 minutes from me, plus it's a great train watching location!
While Crystal City, TX may be the spinach capital of the country, I can fully understand why there were no escapes from the internment camp there. If they got away, there's nothing around there!
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Yes, there were also German internment camps here in the US. Check out the following article about it:
Mike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-American_internment
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-31 06:28:20)
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
German American internment camps ? they must have held 30 percent of the population !
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
31 Oct 2013
02:00:29am
re: Prisoner of War Mail
When I researched WWII pow camps in the US as well as Canada, it blew my mind to see the actual number. Ironic as it may seem, it makes perfect sense. Germany occupied the majority of Europe. As the allies came in and captured German pows, where were they going to put them? They certainly couldn't create camps in territory that was still occupied by Germany. So they were shipped to North America. The majority of the pow camps were in the US, in terms of actual number of camps as well as the number of prisoners.
What surprises me is the date that some of those camps were created. A number of which have since served as US military training locations. The US primarily fought the Pacific war, whereas Royal forces (which includes England, Canada and Newfoundland amongst others were the earliest to fight Germany alongside France. The dates that some of the German pow camps were created on American soil does not correspond to when the US became a part of the war in Europe. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So my assumption (not knowledge) is that US pow camps with German prisoners could in fact have been Germans captured by the Royal forces and other early allies (France of course ranking at the top).
It appears that German pow camps on American soil significantly differed from those in Canada where for the most part, prisoners were sentenced to hard labour, not an aspect of many US German pow camps. In any case it is quite obvious these pows were treated significantly different from allies pow captured by the Germans, endured torture, often sent to concentration camps, commando units were executed and there were also some actual pow camps.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Kelly,
i don't think this is fully correct. I am no expert on any of the things I relate here, but familiar enough that I feel comfortable discussing it.
A good overview of US POWs can be found here: http://www.va.gov/vetdata/docs/SpecialReports/POWCY04Final4-7-05forweb.pdf. it's important to see where the prisoners were taken. You see the two single biggest takes were the Philippines and Ardennes, about 25,000 each. In the rest of the war in the Pacific, less than a 1,000 additional US men are taken, primarily because we were the attackers, pushing teh enemy who had neither the inclination nor the ability to take prisoners. Of the total 130,000 US prisoners taken about 15,000 died as POWs, the vast majority those taken in the Philippines. US servicemen taken in the Philippines died at nearly 40% compared to an overall rate of 11% (9% if we remove those taken in the Philippines).
I bring this up to showcase the relatively low number of US allied deaths in Germany, compared to Soviet POW rates, 3.5 million deceased out of 5.7 million, or 61%, or nearly 50% higher than the atrocious rates suffered by US under the Japanese.
So, there WAS tremendous cruelty by the Wehrmacht against Soviet POWs, but not against Allied POWs. Hitler had nothing but disdain for Slavs (including erstwhile allies in the Ukraine and other liberated Soviet republics) but great respect for the British.
as to US POW camps, i can find no listing for any that existed prior to 1942; and the British were taking huge numbers of Italian POWs in their Africa campaign in early 1941. It looks like the first US POW camps started in 1942, with most operational in 1943 and beyond. Most Axis prisoners would be from the Africa campaigns, and later the Sicily and Italian campaigns.
As to where the US fought, that's not quite true. We had 62 Army divisions in European theatre compared to 21 in the Pacific (although there were also Marine divisions in Pacific, and none in Europe).
The largest contributors to the war on the Allied side are, of course, the Soviets, followed by US and, drum roll, Indian forces. There's a great article on this, highlighting the overhighlighted role American forces played. US dominates in Europe, but only at war's end. Take a look at http://rethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/2011/02/statistical-confusion-whose-troops.html
David
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-31 09:27:19)
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10:38:24am
re: Prisoner of War Mail
There is no way that the US would have been able, under the Articles of War, to hold POWs captured by another country when the US was a neutral country. The US would have had to return the POWs to their own country, if they wanted to return. In any event it would have been a major international incident.
The purpose of bringing the soldiers captured by US troops to the US was to take the POWs totally out of the war theater. With the war being fought in Europe, German and Italian troops sitting in a POW camp in the US were unable to cause serious problems for the Allied forces fighting in Europe. Also, President Roosevelt wanted to use the POWs to replace the loss in the labor force caused by men going off to fight.
While it is the sworn duty of soldiers to attempt to escape and harass their captors, my understanding is that POWs brought to the US generally were well treated and responded in kind. That doesn't mean there weren't escape attempts.
http://voices.yahoo.com/german-wwii-pows-escaped-6370108.html
The largest escape from a US POW camp was in Phoenix, Arizona, where a 25-man breakout occurred lead by a German U-Boat commander.
http://www.examiner.com/article/german-pows-escape-from-phoenix
The History Channel did a documentary on this incident. It is considered to be the German version of "The Great Escape".
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
i agree with Michael on America's declared neutrality, although we made no attempts to hide our preferences for British interests nor our antipathy for Japanese'.
Japan's strikes at Hawaii, Midway, Philippines, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Dutch Indies was in large response a frustration with US, British, and Dutch refusals to sell them oil and rubber.
And America was clearly selling Britain arms AND escorting them as far as Iceland, where they were turned over to British-flagged escorts, even before declared hostilities.
Still, holding combatants' troops as POWs might have been a tad overreaching, even for the US.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
31 Oct 2013
07:52:52pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
The Japanese certainly went about venting their frustration in an extreme fashion. Sorry, cannot forget, cannot forgive!
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
i like their trucks !!
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10:43:47pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Bobby, it wasn't so much frustration as their perception that a soldier must fight to the death. Any soldier who surrendered was not a soldier, and was treated as dirt. They did, however, inflict many atrocities on not just the POWs they captured, but also civilians in the conquered lands.
The US thought that by treating the POWs in the US well, that US POWs, particularly in German hands, would also be treated well.
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so the odd thing about the Japanese response is that they played Wainwright's card, indicating that as overall commander, he MUST order his troops to surrender or those already captive would be executed. So he did, and the bulk of American and Philippino soldiers under his command did as ordered.
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09:03:38am
re: Prisoner of War Mail
Yes, and many of those prisoners died while in captivity too. The Japanese learned quickly that the Allies preferred life over an "honorable death", and exploited it. (Sounds Klingonish if you ask me...)
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yes, 10,000 of the 25,000 surrendered in the Philippines died in Japanese custody.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
War is a brutal thing..reading a book by John Prebble called Mutiny about how the Scottish Chiefs in the mid 1700s sold their men to the British army.
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Funny, that, Phil, because about the same time the Scottish regiments, notably the 42nd, 71st, and 74th, were among the most feared, and often at the center of any fight.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Nov 2013
01:46:22pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
" .... the US was a neutral country. ...."
October 31st is an interesting date to mention the US being neutral or that the US Navy protected convoys to what was called the "MOMP", (Mid-Ocesn Meeting Place) somewhere south of Iceland.
I meant to make a note about it being the anniversary of the loss of the "Good Ship
Reuben James," but have been at times off line for a day or so.
I wrote an article about that incident and the 1991 stamp issued to commemorate it a few years ago;
The sinking of the USS Reuben James DD-245
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
David, being feared does not necessarily mean they were happy..read Culloden or Mutiny !
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
I found the following Kriegsgefangenenlager (prisoner of war camp) Christmas card at my local stamp fair this past weekend. This is part of a somewhat new collecting avenue, even though I have had an interest in German related mail for a while.
Researching this sort of material seems to be something of a challenge, hindered firstly by the language and then the difficulty of finding the few records that exist:
The card front is in itself intriguing. The Germans must have been quite accommodating to allow standard issue POW postcards to be printed in this way. As yet I don’t know if this was a common practice in POW camps.
The message reads:
"Tho’ barbed strands hold us far apart
Our thoughts rise high and clear
To greet those who lie near our heart
With love with hope with cheer"
The card was sent by a Sgt John S Stewart to a Miss A Stewart in Glamorgan, England (sic) and censored by camp Examiner II. Unfortunately the machine applied CDS sheds no light as to when or where this card was posted:
However, from what little I can find about the fieldpost, it was assigned to the camp for only a short while; between 19 July 1941 to 14 February 1942 and thus the card must have been sent Christmas 1941.
It would seem that this particular camp was only assigned a Feldpost number and not given an Oflag or Stalag designation. As yet, I have not been able to find out why this was so, but the dates of use may suggest the camp may not have been permanent.
It appears that the Feldpost 47340 A was assigned to a the 1.– 3. Kompanie Kriegsgefangenen , 48th B.A.B ‘Bau und Arbeits Bataillon’ (prisoner of war construction and labour battalion). Curiously the fieldpost suffix ‘A’ is not mentioned in records.
The actual records found use this format: Stab u. 1.-3. Kompanie Kriegsgefangenen-Bau-u. Arbeits-Bataillon 48. I don’t know what ‘Stab u.’ denotes. Google translate suggest either ‘bar’ or ‘rod’ (too literal). The abbreviated ‘u.’ is no doubt ‘und’.
The actual location of Feldpost 47340 A remains a mystery.
One aspect of this card which amused me, more in irony than humour, is the slogan part of the machine cancel, which would probably have been applied in the main post office close to the camp.
Here’s a clearer image (ignore the CDS part):
Auf Reisen und Wanderungen – Postreisescheck : For travelling and hiking -Travelers cheques.
I’m sure the POW’s would have made a meal of that, had they known.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
"Stab" is 'staff' (thy rod and thy staff comfort me...)
Christmas 1941 - a time, perhaps, when treatment of British NCO POWs was more civilised than it would later become? Note that as NCOs they were put to work, as opposed to the officers, who could lounge about planning tunnel escapes.
This looks like a father's letter to his daughter. Pity that postmark is erased.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Hello Ningpo,
Stab, as used here, simply means HQ.
BAB 48 apparently was located in Heydebreck, actually Kędzierzyn, Upper Silesia. The Nazis renamed the town for Peter von Heydebreck, a Nazi martyr, so the the city had that name only 1934-1945. There were many labor camps in this area (search for the Blechhammer labor camps) which housed forced laborers primarily for the construction and operations of major chemical plants. POWs were only a small minority.
Below is a clip from a British Red Cross magazine "The Prisoner of War" from April 1943
Edit/add: The town name in the postmark has been purposefully removed. The dumb postmarks of civilian postmarking equipment pressed into Fieldpost service should be listed in the Michel WWII Fieldpost Catalog, which I do not own.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Thank you for supplying that little gem about the location. The 'censoring' of the CDS of course makes complete sense.
I see the date of the magazine clipping is April 1943. This raises the question of how up to date the information was at publication. Feldpost 27340 was supposedly used elsewhere after 14 February 1942. If the information was quite recent, then would the suffix 'A' have perhaps been used after that date just for the camp in question? In other words, were there two Feldpost 27340 designations. I can't see it myself, as surely this would be confusing.
The only other explanation I can think of is the 'last date of use' for the camp is wrong.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Just to add a bit of further detail.
Alice Irene Stewart was born 22nd. January 1898 and in 1939 was at the address on envelope as a "paid domestic help" with the Hirst household, he being a wholesale fruit and veg merchant.
John Stanley Stewart was born c 1905, Portsmouth, Hampshire (as was Alice and rest of family), he was in the 3rd or 5th. Tank Battalion and was repatriated by the Red Cross in Poole, Dorset in 1943.
Possibly he is still alive as I have not found a death record for him but Alice died 1976, with the death registered in Pontypool, Gwent.
There are a couple of family trees on Ancestry that connect with the family, his father died before 1911.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Thank you Sheepshanks for your research. I didn't think for one minute that I would get this far with the card. Ganz toll.
By the way, I just choked when I looked up Rheinlander's book nomination,"Michel Handbuch - Katalog Deutsche Feldpost 1937-1945"....
US$ 341.88 plus shipping. That's for the 2009 edition.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Ningpo, I have a copy of the families 1911 census entry, pm me if you would like a copy.
Youch on the cost of the book, project Gutenberg does not have copy.
Possible death for John Stewart is 1956 in Surrey.
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Thank you Sir. I'll get back to you later, as I'm off to count sheep!
Just ordered a 1986 hardback edition (not ideal I know) but it was about £15 including shipping. Just a tad cheaper.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Most impressed by these responses - it's an area in which I have some interest but (as my feeble first-responder effort shows) not a lot of expertise!
As custodians of these pieces of human/postal history, we should, I believe, do our best to find out about the people from whom or to whom they were sent. I have a few similar items, but not the wherewithal to delve much further than a Google search. Do I take it that the websites from which the info on Sgt Stewart and his older sister was obtained are not free to view?
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Guthrum, yes the sites used were Find my Past for the 1939 details and Ancestry for the births/deaths and their public trees for the Red cross detail, both subscription sites.
Limited birth/marriage and death records are available free on Freebmd, but do not contain more than basic detail.(1837-1973 UK)
Familysearch the Mormon centre has billions of worldwide records free to all but nothing much later than about 1850.
There are also a number of Military research sites that are subscription or pay to view.
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I happen to have a similar card in my collection from an American prisoner. The double circle cancel does not disclose a town name, as intended, I suppose. I am not sure where this POW camp was located in Germany.
Linus
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Well this card seems to have been sent from the most famous POW camp of WWII; Stalag Luft III. This is the camp upon which the films 'The Wooden Horse' and 'The Great Escape' were based.
The camp was in the German province of Lower Silesia near the town of Sagan (now Żagań in Poland), 160 kilometres (100 miles) southeast of Berlin. It operated between May 1942 and January 1945.
You may well know this already but each escape attempt resulted in only three prisoners reaching freedom.
The 'Great Escape' attempt, by which 76 prisoners fled the camp through a tunnel, resulted in 73 men being re-captured and of those, 50 were executed.
Stalag Luft III
The card is obviously worth more research.
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Linus,
I've just noticed that in addition to the Mit LuftPost cachet, there are two censor markings (one is probably American) and a nice Taxe Perçue cachet.
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Ningpo,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I was searching on the wrong words, while the answer was right there in front of me. I noticed the other faint markings, also. I read the Wikipedia article and learned that "the great escape" occurred on March 24, 1944 and this postcard was written on March 9, 1944. Very interesting. I recall buying this card at a postcard show in Iowa City, Iowa from a dealer who had boxes and boxes of disorganized common postcards. You had to dig and dig to find a "gem."
Thanks again,
Linus
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
This cover, which I found on the internet, shows more clearly some of the markings on Linus's card.
The CDS in particular shows a distinct obliteration of its location. The Taxe Perçue cachet shows 40 pfennigs 'collected'. This seems to be the same rate on all examples I've seen around this time.
A circular US censor marking has been applied in this instance, in addition to the German one.
Notice the different camp designation; the word Luftwaffe has been omitted and replaced with the term M.-Stammlager, which is an abbreviation of 'Mannschafts-Stammlager'.
The term Stalag itself comes from a contraction of 'Kriegsgefangenen-Mannschafts-Stammlager'.
Edit:
There is a US based seller on eBay, who has a substantial amount of prisoner related covers, including the Stalag Luft III I posted here and others from concentration camps. The prices are not for the faint hearted.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
"Just to add a bit of further detail.
Alice Irene Stewart was born 22nd. January 1898 and in 1939 was at the address on envelope as a "paid domestic help" with the Hirst household, he being a wholesale fruit and veg merchant.
John Stanley Stewart was born c 1905, Portsmouth, Hampshire (as was Alice and rest of family), he was in the 3rd or 5th. Tank Battalion and was repatriated by the Red Cross in Poole, Dorset in 1943.
Possibly he is still alive as I have not found a death record for him but Alice died 1976, with the death registered in Pontypool, Gwent.
There are a couple of family trees on Ancestry that connect with the family, his father died before 1911."
Thanks to Sheepshanks sending me a copy of the 1911 census for the family, the writer of the POW card, John Stewart, mailed it to his older sister Alice.
Thanks again Sheepshanks.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
My pleasure, if anyone else wants a lookup of the censuses let me know and I'll see what I can find.
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Regarding the second card from Ralph J Gaston, the following was from Ancestry,
Ralph Jarvis Gaston was born on October 24, 1918, in Hollywood, California, the child of Ralph Smartt and Thelma. He married Amy Jarvis and they had three children together. He also married Jean Hill in Long Beach, California. He died on November 8, 1996, in Knoxville, Tennessee, at the age of 78, and was buried in Johnson City, Tennessee.
He enlisted 18th Aug 1941 In the Air Corps, height 72 inches, weight 160 lbs. He was in camp 013, from around Nov 1941 to about 1945.
As far as the recipient goes, her details are:-
Anna H (Jarvis) was born on September 7, 1877, in California. She married Ira Newton Jarvis about 1903, in Contra Costa County, California. They had one child during their marriage. She died on February 15, 1969, in Richmond, California, at the age of 91.
So she would have been in her 60's when he sent the card. Maybe an aunt, family friend, not sure.
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10:51:10am
re: Prisoner of War Mail
A POW repatriated as early as 1943 would have classified ( by the Germans) as unfit for further military duty i.e. very ill indeed. He would have been a useless mouth to feed in the light of food and other shortages, and that burden might as well be put on the UK.
It should be noted that Germany, like Japan, was not a signatory of the Geneva convention and so theoretically could treat it's prisoners however it liked. However, in general, it's armed forces ( and especially the professional officer corps) treated (western) allied prisoners according to the convention. There were however aberrations, scattered atrocities perpetrated by SS units ( some as early as the 1940 retreat from France), plus events carried out on the personal orders of Hitler ( commandos, great escape recaptures, bomber crews etc). The general breakdown in discipline at the end of the war increased such events by individuals and small groups, plus it should be noted that some deaths of prisoners was contributed to by lack of communication, food and resources generally rather than by gratuitous cruelty - not to mention death at the hands of RAF and USAF bombers while they were being moved.
It also has to be said ( although not officially admitted ) that the odd (revenge) atrocity was carried out by Allied troops. One of the essential ( and more difficult duties) of officers in wartime is to hold the other ranks in check when prisoners are taken - and feelings are running high.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Although not true POW mail, I felt this was a steal for a £1 coin.
It would seem that the Town Hall in Macclesfield, Cheshire were trying to locate a soldier of the 2nd Battalion ('D' Company ?), the Cheshire Regiment, assigned to Middle East Forces.
Although the return date on the reverse is unclear, the signed pencil notation on the front suggests it took about 13 weeks to find that Private Bootomley (probably Bottomley) was incarcerated.
I would guess that the two sets of initials in red pen were written by the army officer dealing with the search, as it is in the same pen as the ringed return address. The pencil signature and date might suggest acknowledgement by an official in Macclesfield.
I wonder if this sort of search was a service carried out by the Town Hall, on behalf of worried relatives. The soldier may of course have been an employee of the Town Hall itself:
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
I thought I would continue this thread with a scan from my collection of a German officer's POW cover mailed from Camp 191 Great Britain. A Wikipedia search revealed that Camp 191 was actually a mansion named Crewe Hall, near the town of Crewe Green in the county of Cheshire. From the picture on Wikipedia of Crewe Hall, this German officer had it pretty good after his capture. The paper is a slick, finished style of paper stock.
Linus
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
I was immediately attracted to the artwork on this newly acquired POW postcard when I saw it listed:
Although I knew the card was unused, I could see it had a tiny cachet on the reverse, which wasn't completely clear, until I scanned it:
So far, I can find only one reference to the "Lady Dodds' Prisoner of War Fund.", which again is on an unused card advertised on a New Zealand stamp site, with the comment, 'not seen this cachet on a postcard before'.
The other reference is to a brown paper package sent by the fund to a POW in Germany in 1918 but with no cachet. This is held by the Imperial War Museum.
Can anyone shed any light on either the card or the fund itself?
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04:10:33pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
A quick internet search shows a National Archives reference to a "Lady Dodd's Charity" based at Ellesborough near High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire. They hold records of accounts etc from 1616 to 1917.
It was the habit of the more progressive country gentry to set up charities for the improvement and relief of their tenants and servants ( usually administered by their wives).Noblesse oblige and all that. Usually an endowment was set up and the revenue accruing was used for the relief work. Sometimes almshouses were built ( there are in fact "Lady Dodd's Cottages" in Ellesborough - a historic listed building).
Many of these charities still exist today administered by trustees, and funds can be allocated to good works according to the constitution of the fund, sometimes by bodies or individuals applying to the trustees.The charity dating from 1616, the original family could have died out several generations before through lack of a male heir somewhere along the line,leaving the charity in the hands of the local trustees ( Vicar, Doctor,Schoolteacher and similar worthies ), or if the issue were daughters then the family may have carried on with a different surname.
It is very possible that during WW1 some of these funds were allocated to providing "comforts" for Prisoners of War from the locality ( or more generally), and this became an extention of the original charity.
Of course it could be the work of a different Lady Dodd altogether, but the balance of probability is that the lady from Ellesborough ( in 1616) is the original patron. Given access to genealogical records it may be possible to trace the family further ( or maybe locate a different Lady Dodd).Unfortunately the records on line only show the existence of the records and not their content.
Malcolm
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
Thank you for that information. I wasn't sure myself if the Lady Dodd to which you refer was the right one, hence my question. I'm rather surprised that I could find very little about her (or the fund). However I didn't spend too much time looking. I'll need to dig a little further.
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05:18:09pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
I've been searching the Internet again - and I suspect what I have written above is a load of bull..
I have seen a tantalising reference to World War 1 and a Lady Dodds who was obviously a somewhat senior member of the British Red Cross in respect of a report to the BRC. I suspect that this is the Lady Dodds of the fund - particularly as the Imperial War Museum parcel is to a member of a Scottish army regiment ( and a Scot to boot) which probably means that the local charity angle is a dead duck.
A number of the upper middle and upper classes got involved with the Red Cross at a senior level - and it is quite likely that a number of these had their own fund-raising supporters.An e-mail to the archivist at the British Red Cross Society might be beneficiial. With the current interest in World War One it might be the right time.
Sorry about the probable wild goose chase.
Another point worth making It appears that the Lady Dodds is the Prisoner of War Fund while the Buckinghamshire Charity is Lady Dodd's( note the apostrophe )
Malcolm
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
No wild goose chase at all. Your suggestion to contact the British Red Cross is a good one, particularly as further digging around on my part produced zilch.
I just find it remarkable that details about such a fund could seemingly disappear into the ether.
The fact that the postcard I bought attracted 10 bids, suggests that others may have spotted the uncommon cachet, together with an unusual design.
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01:05:53pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
This one has really got my juices going. At the risk of ( yawn yawn) boring you all, further research has revealed the following
(From the British Journal of Nursing 12 June 1915)
The British Prisoner of War Fund has been established under the direction of Lady Dodds at Room 119 at 83 Pall Mall. 1612 boxes ( parcels) have been sent to 42 different prisoner of war camps.
Second is a reference among a number of others on various subjects which may be Red Cross records
... a report received by Lady Dodds about the shooting of a Prisoner of War at Limburg Camp.This could indicate that her interest in POW welfare went beyond parcels.
Thirs is the 1918 King's Birthday Honours of an award of CBE ( Commander of the Order of the British Empire ) Helen,Lady Dodds for services to the Prisoner of War Fund. This is perhaps the most revealing as CBE is one of the higher ranks ( OBE and MBE are lower ). This indicates that her services are of some importance and gravitas. Although the fact that she was an aristocrat may have had some bearing but not decisive.
Incidentally the form of address - Helen, Lady Dodd suggests that she was by then a widow and her son married - as her Daughter in Law would be Lady Dodd.
It is strange that someone of her importance does not appear to have a biography on the internet. A number of the people who appear on the Honours list have a link to a biography.
Malcolm
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
"It is strange that someone of her importance does not appear to have a biography on the internet."
That's what puzzled me too. Anyway, thank you Malcolm for finding those snippets. Such information always adds value (not monetary) even to an unused postcard.
It is a pity that the artwork wasn't signed, which would have added even more interest.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
I've just found the same postcard on this site: Picture postcards from the Great War
No cachet in this instance. If this card was actually printed in Germany, how then would my copy have received the Lady Dodds' cachet? Or was there some arrangement where postcards were printed and supplied by organisations in the UK directly to POW camps?
As for the artist; there is a curious reference to the subject of my card, on another earlier one:
Irritatingly, there is no image. However, the artist referred to, is Cecil A Tooke. And that same artist produced this card:
And what appears on the reverse?
A bit of a coincidence, methinks.
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re: Prisoner of War Mail
I've now located the postcard image by Cecil A Tooke that was not shown on the Great War postcard site:
Notice the similarity between the scythes and hour glasses used in both postcards and the cobwebs. Could this be the same artist, or a bit of plagiarism?
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05:43:21pm
re: Prisoner of War Mail
I wonder if these postcards with the "Lady Dodds" handstamps were blanks sent out with the parcels. The postcards were obviously produced in Britain as they are inscribed " post card" and not "postkarte". Perhaps the German inscription was meant to allay German sensibilities.
The problem with things so far in the past is that every question answered throws up new questions. Additionally as far as World War 1 is concerned many of the survivors ( and their relatives) were gone before the current interest in genealogy ( for ordinary folk anyway) had taken hold. The sheer volume of lost material must be immense.
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