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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Auction Disc. : Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

 

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Woodstock

11 Feb 2012
06:48:08pm
I would like to suggest that a change be made in the auction rules as follows:

Instead of moving the closing time ahead 8 hours when a bid has been made on an item within the last ten hours, I would suggest that moving it ahead to the same time the next day would be much fairer to the bidders.

Case in point: I have bid on a lot that closes at 8:00 PM. Someone bids against me before the lot closes and I respond with a counter offer. I retire for the evening, feeling that I have won the lot. Unfortunately, the lot now closes at 4:00 AM when I do not have a chance to respond. I lose, the seller loses a higher bid, and the "sniper" wins.

Thank you for your consideration.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

11 Feb 2012
07:19:55pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

unless you sleep for more than 8 hours, there is always the possibility of you getting the lot during waking hours. A counter bid automatically increases the length for UP TO 8 hours, depending on when it's placed.

in either scenario, there are always possibilities of losing the lot because you're asleep or at work or....

or is my math wrong?

David

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Bobstamp
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11 Feb 2012
07:22:55pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm thinking that a 24-hour "grace period" would be unfair to sellers. In the case of an "auction duel," it could take days to resolve. Now I don't like losing lots either, so I am in the habit of bidding the maximum amount I want to spend. Then, if I lose, so be it. I do this on eBay as well. Snipers are basically wasting their time on me.

Bob

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auldstampguy
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Collector, Webmaster

11 Feb 2012
08:13:52pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

The auction is actually set for 10 hours, that is if the high bidder changes within 10 hours of the expected auction closure, the closing time is set to 10 hours from the time that the high bidder changed.

Regards ... Tim.

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Woodstock

11 Feb 2012
08:18:29pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David: Your math may be correct, but the fact remains that most people are not up and about at 4:00 AM. If I lose because I'm at work, school, etc., it is my fault. To tell me that I might have to sit up all night to counter bid is absurd.

Bob: Even under the present system "bidder wars" can take place. Unfair to the sellers, you say? I think not! If I were selling I would be overjoyed if the bidding went on and on, and up and up.

Tim: My case in point is real. Yes, I can bid what I feel is my maximum, but what might be my maximum right now may not be such at a later time. And, while I may be high bidder now, I would have to be "up all night" to guarantee a win.

Perhaps extending the bidding hours from 10 to 12 might be able to correct this without having to extend it a full 24. Any possibility that could be a consideration?

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michael78651
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11 Feb 2012
09:13:05pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

But if when you place a bid, you bid the highest amount that you are willing to pay for the item you don't need any additional time. The lot closes on time. If you are outbid, then the item sold for more than you were willing to pay for it anyway, so there is no reason to whine about it.

While I know that I will not win the argument here. The constant extension of end times is frustrating to me as a bidder. I have to constantly check to see if the closing time has changed and what time it will close. Sellers have to wait and wait for the items to close when all of their other items have closed before they can get payment. The process is frustrating and unfair as seen by the post complaining that the extended time isn't enough. How much extra time is enough? You win it from me, I was trying to get to the computer to check on my bid, but had to go to the bathroom and the lot closed. Not fair to me. I need more time, so extend it more. I beat you, you had a last minute phone call and missed the closing. Not fair. I do shift work; I have rotating shifts; I sleep at night; I sleep during the day; I live in a different time zone why should I have to get up at 4AM my time. Accommodate me!!!!! More time! More time!! Call the Wahmbulance. This can go on and on, and it will never be fair, because it can't be fair just by its nature. One closing time, finite in nature. No one can complain. Everyone knows when a lot is going to close, and don't have to worry about any games with the clock. Bid that highest amount that you are willing to pay for the item. By not bidding the highest amount, and not winning the item, then you only have yourself to blame, not the clock or the one who was the high bidder.


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Bobstamp
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11 Feb 2012
10:32:16pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Woodstock said, "I can bid what I feel is my maximum, but what might be my maximum right now may not be such at a later time."

I understand this sentiment. I have often increased my bid after an initial bid, having convinced myself that I really really really do want that stamp (or cover, or whatever). But isn't that my problem? If I am so unsure of my desires, can I really blame someone else if they outbid me, no matter when that bid comes in and proves to be the winning bid? I have lost bids not because I was asleep or at work or taking a shower or enjoying conjugal bliss, but simply because I forgot that the auction was closing! In the end, auction happiness depends on bidders placing their maximum bids and forgetting it. Anything else is gambling, no matter when the auction closes.

Bob

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11 Feb 2012
11:09:54pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

...and it makes no sense to adjust it so that in one time zone auctions don't close at 4AM, because it will be 4AM someplace else. If it's not fair for one time zone, it's not fair for any time zones.

It is what it is here. I don't care for it, but I tolerate it. If the site charged fees to sell, I wouldn't like it at all, so I guess that is the trade off.

I understand that SOR wants to keep things on friendlier terms like a "club", and not have the competitiveness of the commercial sites.

I just like it when people complain about the current way not being fair. Their arguments fall right into the reasons for having fixed end dates and times for auctions.

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PDougherty999
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11 Feb 2012
11:29:18pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I guess I'm not seeing the issue of where someone feels that they are not getting enough time to counter bid on our site.

If you are out bid, you recieve and email notification AND 10 hours to get back and counter bid. So if you went to bed at 9PM as a high bidder, and someone outbid you as at 10PM, you still have until 8AM the next morning to counter the bid.

If the lot is important to you, then I would think that you would be checking up on it in the morning to see if you won or if you need to up your bid again. I think the system here is more fair than on eBay. If someone bids there in the last few seconds, then you would be screwed as they don't extend the time. At least here, that sniper actually screws himself in that he has just set himself up for a counter bid by extending the time for another 10 hours. And when someone does that to me here, i know that I really need to get serious and that's when I break down and use that maximum bid tool.

---Pat

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michael78651
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11 Feb 2012
11:44:24pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

ditto, Pat

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youpiao
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12 Feb 2012
12:54:04am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Ditto, Miguel.

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Woodstock

12 Feb 2012
06:22:47am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

There will be no further posts from this member. The point has been lost.


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Stampme

13 Feb 2012
11:27:33am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I like the system the way it is set up. Have I lost items because someone bid just before the ten hour end time, extending the auction. Yes. An auction is always an unknown. Winning and losing is part of life. There is usually a balance.

Bruce

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Mike

13 Feb 2012
05:21:43pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

This whole subject just goes to prove what a great place SOR is, with all of the diverse opinions, concerning every aspect of stamp collecting and no one has to jump, shout, point fingers, cuss or swear, simply because they don't get their way. That's probably the main reason SOR is growing at such a tremendous rate and still attacting good, quality members worldwide.

Thank all of you, ladies and gentlemen, for making Stamporama such a wonderful site to enjoy.

Mike

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Madame
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14 Feb 2012
09:26:06am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I've never heard of an auction that doesn't end when it is scheduled to end. I may not be the most prolific bidder or seller, but I personally would like to see the auctions end on time and with no extensions.

Judy

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Bobstamp
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14 Feb 2012
10:18:56am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Before internet auctions, all auctions went on until there were no more bids, which is precisely why I don't like eBay and other on-line auctions, but nevertheless use them.

As far as I'm concerned, our Stamporama auction emulates in-person auctions. The only difference is that in an actual auction the time between the last bid and the hammer is a matter of seconds, because everyone who is interested in buying is right there in person or connected by phone, and has the opportunity to place another bid. Since not everyone can be at their computer at the scheduled closing time of an auction, and a new bid comes in, it makes sense to have an extension which gives them time. Both buyer and seller benefit.

Bob

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michael78651
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14 Feb 2012
12:59:31pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's not exactly true. Mail Bid auctions end at a finite date and time. Internet auctions are a hybrid of those.

In live auctions there are strategies that are very similar to sniping, and other strategies are used to "attack" one's competition. Also, live auctions have a finite date in which the selling price of an item will be resolved.

Different venues for auctions require different tactics be used to be successful. The "floating" auction here is like a baseball game that goes to extra innings, so one doesn't know when it will end. I stick a bid on an item, and don't have the time to play this type of game by checking back all the time to see what the new end date is for the item. I know I miss out on many items, and probably so do many others. If there was a finite end date and time many lots would probably receive more bidding competition near the closing time, resulting in higher sales prices for sellers.

The structure of the auctions here makes it more conducive for buyers, because lower sales prices are the result. However, you have to understand that the rationale of the Stamporama founders for this is to keep things friendly in a club atmosphere.

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Bobstamp
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14 Feb 2012
01:24:29pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thanks for educating me, michael78651. (michael78651… Sounds like a dystopian sic-fi moniker… Perhaps it is, since the internet certainly shows dystopic signs!)

Anyway, I hadn't thought of mail-bid auctions, nor was I aware that brick-mortar-flesh-and-blood auctions had time limits. How would that work, assuming two people were competing and both had bottomless pockets?

I have never thought of the Stamporama Auction as being broken in any way, so I see no need to fix it.

Bob

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

14 Feb 2012
01:29:27pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Supreme Auctioneer for life:

I'm with Madame Judy on this issue, firm auction lot bid-closing times. But, what the heck, I'll retain my membership and auction participation whatever rules are in place.

I've been outbid on a considerable number of "wanted" Stamporama auction lots and, truth be known, it's always been my fault.

John Derry

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Woodstock

14 Feb 2012
03:18:19pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I wasn't going to comment on this issue again, but recent comments require clarification.

I would like to make something absolutely clear. I never stated that I thought anything on Stamporama was "broken", nor did I consider my observation a "complaint". Those who would categorize my statements as such are not only(sadly) mistaken, but also don't seem to recognize an honest attempt at trying to suggest possible improvements.

So, continuing to think about the auction and this "instructive" discussion, several thoughts came to mind.

First, that wise old sage Yogi Berra was notorious for his concocted quotes, one of which goes, "It ain't over 'til it's over."

Secondly, It is unfortunate that the truism "It isn't over until the fat lady sings", doesn't quite fit an online auction. Besides, all of our ladies are gorgeous.

So, what to do, what to do?

Leave it alone....yes, that's a choice! Although, as some members have mentioned, the time extension thing is an odd one.

Or

Bring it back to a real, unadjusted, straightforward, time ends when time ends auction.

My Vote?

Well, from the deluge generated by my first post did you actually think I was going to say?

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

14 Feb 2012
05:19:53pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's funny Bob and a good choice to make.

A wise old guy from England once said "The better part of valor is discretion". I have been known to snipe auctions, on another site, because I really don't like getting into bidding wars, but certainly can understand both sides of this controversy. I agree with most responders, in the fact that if one wants a stamp they should put their maximum bid in and let it ride, but on the other hand, I have also raised my bids because others have outbid my initial bid on a stamp that I really did want to own, so have consequently raised my bid even higher. On the other hand, I do think that 10 hours is too long of an extension after a bid is made, but don't know what the magic number of hours would be. I think I would liken it to a beautiful Mockingbird, on a branch in your back yard, that you would like to have in your house, singing those lovely songs. If you don't grab it before it flys away, you lose and it's the end of that thought.

Mike

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michael78651
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14 Feb 2012
06:43:57pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bobstamp - Of course "flesh and blood" auctions have time limits. There is a date set when the auction occurs. Each lot is then put up for bids. Bidding continues until the auctioneer makes the last call as the bidding ceases for an item and the lot is sold. The auction then moves on to the next lot. Such an auction is not suspended, because someone was the last to bid and then the previous high bidder gets hours or days to determine whether to bid higher. It happens then and there. If the auction house/stamp dealer holds an auction on February 25, the auction begins and ends on that date.

Also, as I stated, I understand the rationale behind the extended hours within the "club" atmosphere. I may not agree with it, but by my participating in the auctions here as a buyer, I accept it from that standpoint. No one agrees with everything. If I took major exception to how things ran here, I would have left a long time ago (no wise cracks now).

New England Bob - Many of my comments were meant to be general in nature and not directed to anyone in particular. That's why I tried to keep them in the third person. I can see where some comments could have been construed to be directed at someone, so I apologize for any misunderstanding. (So what is your vote? lol)

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bhsxvet
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15 Feb 2012
06:44:38pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

A lot of good discussion.
I would say that at a 'live' auction the auctioneer polls the assembled potential buyers until one offers a bid. He will then poll the buyers again allowing anyone to raise the bid. If a potential buyer responds with a bid, then the auctioneer has to poll the buyers again for a new bid. This goes on until there is no response from the assembled hopeful buyers, at which time the item is declared sold.
That is what the Stamporama auction tries to emulate. The difference I think is that at the live auction the auctioneer can usually poll the buyers in seconds, but because the Stamporama auction is global in scope it takes time to "poll" the members. Since no one really knows how long this requires a length of time was picked. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. The process seems fair to me. The hard part is to pick the length of the extension (time needed to poll potential buyers) after the bid.
My 2c worth.

Brian
(I have to say I have never put anything up for sale and only buy occasionally. But I like that I can place a bid before I go to bed and if it is the high bid know that I can go to sleep because I have at least 10 hours(from my bid time) to check in and see what is happening.)

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webweaver
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12 Jun 2012
05:42:30pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have seen some online auction sites that give one minute to the auction after a last minute bid is placed. ebay will let you place your max amount and will auto bid for you up to your max bid and if the auction goes over that max bid you loss unless you place a higher bid before the end of the auction.
personally I will set my alarm if I am really wanting the item I am bidding on to make sure that I can bid if I need to. If I am going to be away from the computer or home I will place my max bid.
Everyone has their own way of doing things and no one way is right or wrong its just a personal way of doing things. I think as a club with members all over the world it is best to take things with a grain of salt realizing that everything is not perfect. Compromise is a must and just sit back and enjoy life and membership with the club

Richard Brink

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Stampaholic
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14 Jun 2012
10:22:39am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I believe the purpose of the 10 hour rule was to eliminate sniping. I hate sniping. They even have computer programs for sniping. Not kosher.
Feebay is really bad for this. That's one of the reasons I like BINs a lot. (and which
it appears we might be getting soon {See topic on BINs}).

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

14 Jun 2012
10:36:16am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Tim and I have been talking about the mechanisms for BIN and our 10-hour rule. We will keep the 10-hour rule in place for all auctions EXCEPT for BIN. Once someone has engaged the BIN option, or a bidder has reached or exceeded the BIN price, that auction closes and the BIN bidder takes it home. BIN trumps 10-hour rule, expressed mathematically as BIN/10H. And just to be clear, a lot offering BIN still has the 10H until BIN is engaged.

10H was, indeed, created to eliminate sniping, and while it may not work perfectly in a multi-time zone site like ours, it does level the playing field pretty well.

David the auctioneer

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StampCommune

14 Jun 2012
12:34:29pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi David,
Just to clarify the new BIN option coming...
A lot is placed for a penny with a BIN of 10 cents.

Bidder one places a bid of a penny...
Bidder two comes in and places a bid of 6 cents and takes current winning bid.
Bidder one COMES BACK and places a bid of 11 cents...
(The prices above are for example so it is kept as basic as possible)

So what you are saying is...

The auction will be closed AUTOMATICALLY closed since the BIN option was still available and will be closed at the BIN price?

Just want to be sure everyone is on the same page and understands the engagement.

Grant
~ Stampcommune ~

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Patches

Liz

14 Jun 2012
12:51:59pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's different.

Normally a BIN option disappears once a bid has been placed at just the starting bid, unless that person choses the BIN option and pays that higher price immediately (i.e. purchases the lot outright). If the BIN option is chosen the lot automatically closes.

IF a bid is placed below the BIN option, the BIN option is no longer valid and bidding goes on as normal until the closing time of the lot chosen by the seller. The price could go well over the originally BIN offered price.

In fact on most sites the BIN option totally disappears from the listing. It is no longer seen by a potential buyer once a bid has been placed on the lot.

In other words what you're saying is that a seller would never sell a lot for more than the BIN amount.

Liz



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CapeStampMan
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Mike

14 Jun 2012
01:12:49pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, I agree, wholeheartedly, with what Lis just said. I think the BIN function should disappear if someone bids on a stamp but does not use the BIN feature. It would then revert to an auction and would continue on as such. Otherwise the winning bid would be set by the BIN price and that would defeat the purpose of offering a special price for the BIN feature.

Mike

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

14 Jun 2012
02:45:42pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

the way it will work is how Grant described it.

If a bidder actively employs BIN, auction closes; if bidder merely reaches the BIN level, auction still closes. The lot will NEVER close for more than the BIN price, and once that price is reached, regardless of how, the lot closes.

BIN option stays open until the auction closes

David the auctioneer

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StampCommune

14 Jun 2012
02:49:31pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thank you for verifying.
Things are going to get interesting around here...Thats why I love this place, It's different.
Grant

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Woodstock

14 Jun 2012
03:48:41pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

So, if I understand it right, a seller will never see competitive bidding above the BIN price. As a result, the BIN option would only be worthwhile for a seller to use if he/she feels that nobody in their right mind would bid more than the BIN.

Yes?

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

14 Jun 2012
05:43:00pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, Bob, as in all BINs, it is incumbent upon the seller to use a BIN amount that s/he would happily receive, because that is the upper limit.

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parkinlot
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15 Jun 2012
05:58:35am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David, I have to totally disagree with the way this is going to work. To put a limit on the lot is not fair to the seller or the buyers. Liz describes how it normally works on other sites. A seller would have to be crazy to use this option so I think Tim should save his time and not even bother making the change because as a seller, I would not use it.

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

15 Jun 2012
07:13:11am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bob, why are you willing to accept the BIN amount, that you set, at the opening of the auction but not at some later moment?

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

15 Jun 2012
07:18:11am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

And, just so were clear, BIN is completely optional. Sellers can offer it, or not.

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Woodstock

15 Jun 2012
07:27:07am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thank you Bob Parkin for putting into more direct words what I was intimating in my previous post. This other way of "skinning a cat" as another Bob(Capestampman) points out is, indeed, quite "interesting" as Grant suggests, and surely would, in my humble opinion, make SOR "different", but not necessarily in a positive way.

I for one will not be using the BIN if it is adopted as described and thus agree that Tim's time could be better spent on other endeavors.

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15 Jun 2012
10:19:51am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David,

When I list a lot, I list it at the lowest I would accept. I would offer the buyer a chance to buy it quickly at a higher price, but if people are bidding on it I don't want it to end at the buy it now price. What would it hurt to keep it going? You know people are interested in the item why restrict them? Maybe it never gets to the Buy it Now price but who would not want to sell it for a higher amount? The Buy it Now is used to get a quick sale for the seller and a quick purchase for the buyer. Once bidding begins, it should continue until the end of the auction.

Every other auction site that I know of that uses Buy it Now, removes the buy it now option once a bid is placed and then it just becomes a regular auction.

I have sold many items here for WAY more than I could have ever anticipated.

I think you need to hear more from the sellers before implementing this. I'm probably not going to use it anyway but I definitely would not use this as it is currently proposed.

Bob

P.S. Thanks for hearing our opinions on this!!!

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StampCommune

15 Jun 2012
12:41:43pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Pro and Cons, I'm sure which ever way BIN is implemented there will be both. But, what other site does it this way? We have learned to sell with no reserve (although scary sometimes) and adopted to that.
I'm not saying yea or ney but I'm willing to give it a try. Once it is in place, time will tell weather or not the other auction sites follow SOR...wouldn't that be something, there does have to be a first somewhere.
And on the other hand, we learn from it and move on...
If you really look at both points, the buyer and seller, the buyer will gain much more from this, they may have the opportunity to never miss that one item...of course the seller has to offer it as a BIN.
Grant

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roy
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15 Jun 2012
09:46:50pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

The problem with a BIN that disappears as soon as a bid is placed is that it wastes the time of the seller to even spend any time thinking about what s/he is willing to let the lot go for.

The first potential buyer who likes the stamp, but doesn't want to pay the BIN price, can "kill" the BIN feature for everyone else by placing a minimum bid, even before it is seen by any other potential buyers. In my mind, this would make the feature useless for sellers, and for all potential buyers who aren't the first to see the lot.

Leaving the BIN as a "cap" to the price, will cause suspense (that's a good thing in an auction environment) as bids approach the BIN price -- who will be the first to "blink" and say "Ok, close enough, I'll take it!"

Personally, as a seller, I would not use a BIN feature that disappeared at the discretion of the first potential buyer. Or, I might use it, but BIN price would equal the minimum bid, making the item a "fixed price", rather than any form of auction.

Roy

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15 Jun 2012
10:04:12pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

We are mixing threads here, with BIN discussion and the "auction extension" discussion, but I thought I should also enter the "extension" discussion, because I was the one who built it into our first auction way back when. At the time, it was an 8 hour extension and has subsequently been continued and extended to 10 hours.

Unless I missed it in this long thread, I don't think that anyone has hit on the real reasons it was originally included in our club auction. The reasons are straightforward. We wanted a situation where no undue advantage accrued to anyone for any reason, including geography. We were (and still are) a small membership (relatively), low volume auction, but the membership is scattered around the globe in 24 time zones. Items that close at 9:00pm in New York, close at 3:00am in Belgium. Knowing that your competition for a lot was in Belgium, while you are in New York, you could obviously gain an advantage by withholding your top bid until just before the close. In fact, if he were the high bidder, you could take multiple "runs" against his bid until you found out where it was and finally topped it.

This is exactly the same scenario as the auction sites that extend the time by one minute, except that that presumes that all participants are poised over their computers. Not realistic for a thin, worldwide membership.

So, bottom line, the object of the extension is to level the playing field across many time zones - many of which will be sleeping or working while you are playing with your stamps.

Roy

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16 Jun 2012
04:24:47pm

Approvals
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm in the camp that would prefer the BIN to be available until there was at least one bid. Then the BIN option should go away.

Although the BIN option is convenient for buyers who want an item at an established price and not risk losing it to someone else, why would a seller want to artificially "cap" a listing if two or more bidders want to sort it out to a different total? If BINs can cap bidding pricing, then listings are in essence "store" items that can be "bartered" down with a bid attempt if others let them get away with it. But if someone at any time can press the BIN Stop button, doesn't this violate the "anti-swooping" and "anti-snatching" philosophy that the time extension feature was designed for? Didn't people want everyone to be comfortable with the pricing they'd finally decided on and let the transaction be finished only when it was finished?

Sometimes bidders may be evaluating and reevaluating what they want to spend. That takes time. And, some may not like to have an untimely choice taken from them at any moment. If the designers didn't want to impose a time limit that would stop that "natural" bidding process, why would the designers now want to impose a mandatory pricing cap? I think the BIN feature should be an either/or design not an either, but only until BIN price is reached.

Why take the fun out of bidding competitions and open the door to a new type of snarking I thought SOR members didn't want?

IMHO

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michael78651
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16 Jun 2012
04:49:40pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Every time someone here tries to justify how fair the time extension is to prevent the gutter trash, meanie snipers from winning auction lots, their examples show exactly how unfair the system actually is. There is no true "leveling of the playing field", and by Roy's own example, once again, the system is shown to be flawed and how it can be manipulated so that the meanie sniper actually wins the item by bidding on the item at a time that the previously high bidder is sleeping.

If you really wanted to punish the meanie snipers and "level the playing field", there is a way to give the bidder who is asleep in Belgium (using Roy's example)a chance to outdo the meanie sniper, for example:

1- auction lot has 1 hour to go.
2- current high bidder (bid is $4.25 with proxie to $4.95) lives in Belgium, the moon, anywhere
3- meanie sniper places a bid in the last hour and becomes the high bidder (lot is now at $5.00)
4- No extension of time. Lot closes at regular time. Email goes out to the previous high bidder alerting the bidder that there was a meanie sniper attack on the bid, and tells the previously high bidder not to cry or whine about the act of violation and states what the new high bid is ($5.00) and how much the meanie sniper has in the proxie bid ($6.95)
5- the previously high bidder has 12 hours to decide if the previously high bidder wants to place a bid that is one bid increment above the current high bidder's (the meanie sniper) proxie ($7.45). If the previously high bidder agrees, then the previously high bidder wins the auction lot for $7.45. If not, then the meanie sniper wins the auction lot for $5.00. If the previously high bidder doesn't respond "yeah" or "nay" within 12 hours, then the meanie sniper automatically wins the auction lot.
6- no need to call the waaaaamublance
7- as in all online auctions bid the highest that you are willing to pay for it. If you are outbid, then the selling price was higher than you were willing to pay anyway.

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16 Jun 2012
05:05:53pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Regarding BIN, it doesn't make sense to have an auction lot where the BIN (which is a convenience to buyers) controls the final selling price if the auction lot went to full term.

Many buyers would rather use the BIN rather than wait for the auction lot to close, thus paying a "premium" for the option to BIN. However, if someone places a bid in hopes of getting the item for less than the BIN price, then that bidder is making a gamble. The BIN option should disappear once the bid is placed, and normal auction rules apply. If bidding pushes the final price over the original BIN, that is the nature of the auction. To make the BIN the actual highest bid possible for the auction lot doesn't make sense and defeats the nature of auctions.

No other auction site will use this process as it will minimize the final selling price, thus hurting sellers and the auction sites that earn their money off the final value fee commissions.

The net result at SOR will be a BIN function that is not fair to sellers, and as some sellers have already stated, they will not use it. So, what's the point of even doing this? One of these days, SOR has to consider what is "fair" to the sellers, rather than working to minimize the selling price for buyers. When you do that, maybe more people will take the time to sell here.

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16 Jun 2012
06:39:55pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

thank you all for your thoughtful comments, some in support of and some in opposition to, the proposed BIN. A few of you have even described approaches you might take were you devising the system. I've read them all.

We will be implementing BIN shortly. Tim has code developed and will be testing it before it goes live, but it's coming to an auction soon.

So a few comments. BIN is a convenience that sellers may use. It is not, as some contend, an attempt to take money away from sellers; frankly, the seller chooses the BIN amount and if it's a king's ransome, and someone's willing to pay it, then good on you, mate. That amount should be good at the opening second as well as the closing instant. If it isn't, the seller miscluculated.

"Now" exists at any point, not just prior to the first bid, always giving a buyer the option of taking it with a single bold move.

The BIN amount does serve as a defacto cap, but it does in eBay and other auctions too. The difference occurs only in the cap never going away, always giving a buyer the option to BIN. And, occasionally it will fall to a buyer who merely meets that amount. Seller got the amount he requested; buyer got the thing. Good on both a' you.

We may set new trends here and blaze new trails. Or find that it doesn't work at all.

Yes, we do this differently than does eBay, but there's much that we do that's different from eBay, starting with free listings and commission-free sales. That's one of the reasons we needn't worry about hurting our commissions: we don't get any. And, if that really does dampen the final sale price, I guarantee the seller chose an amount that was too low.

So, please feel free to use, or not.

David, the auctioneer


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16 Jun 2012
06:53:44pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree with ConnieB and Michael#s. Like I said previously, I probably wouldn't use the BIN option even if it worked like other auction sites, but I'm finding it almost hard to believe that we are being given a take it or leave it option about the change. So far there have been several objections in this thread and one neutral comment saying lets see how it goes. I have seen no positive response from other major sellers in this thread (Liz, Lee, bismark1, margin, etc.). My main concern is having Tim make a major programming change and then no one using it. His efforts can be better used elsewhere.

Also, will there be a search option so that we can see all the lots that have a BIN option?

Edit...

Speaking as a seller - In my opinion the BIN should not be a "King's Ransom's Price" above the original buying price. If that were the case, no buyer is going to use it. It should be a slightly higher price that the seller would like to receive for the item for the convenience of an immediate sale.

Once bidding begins, then it should be game on. I can't see any reason why there should be a limit to how much the item should sell for, even if the seller requested a BIN price. It works both ways. You could also be forcing the bidders to bid at the BIN price to get out of the bidding war. Either way, it just doesn't make sense to me. I'm looking forward to see how this is going to play out.

Bob

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Woodstock

16 Jun 2012
08:08:42pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Being optional, those of us who do not choose to participate in the "BIN Game" will, perhaps, ignore it. As a seller and as a buyer on other sites I tend to dismiss BIN listings as too gimmicky, and thus do not participate. This, however, is just my opinion and nothing more.

Thanks to all for the opportunity to express my thoughts on this subject, and good luck to all sellers and bidders once the new concept is active.

Image Not Found

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16 Jun 2012
08:49:31pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bob P,
I didn't think of including a filter on the Buy It Now lots. Good Idea, I have added it into the enhancement.

I have completed the changes to the system for the Buy It Now function. I'll implement it at about 7:30am tomorrow (Sunday 17th) Central Time. If you are on the system then, try not to use the Auction too much. I'll let you know when I have finished the implementation.

As with all things in Stamporama, the Buy It Now function is completely optional from both the Sellers and Buyers point of view. From my point of view, I'm hoping that you sellers post some of those Pre-1900 covers with a Buy It Now. I'll be using it.

Watch for my post on this thread in the morning to let you know that the implementation is complete.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

16 Jun 2012
10:48:52pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Look forward to the BIN.
Thank you Tim, Roy and the volunteer committee for implementing this feature.
Although different from other sites BIN feature, I believe this will allow for a very friendly, competitive environment for sellers while giving more opportunity for bidders or buyers, which ever the case may be.
Grant
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Mike

17 Jun 2012
12:03:54am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree that the BIN feature may just bring some new excitement to SOR auctions, but since most items are selling with only one bid on them anyway, how much is it really going to affect the auction. Tim should take Sunday off and enjoy his kids and Father's Day.

Happy Father's Day to all that qualify.

Mike



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17 Jun 2012
01:42:15am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Good point.

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17 Jun 2012
08:14:10am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Everyone,
I have implemented the Buy It Now (BIN) option. The only immediate difference that you will see until sellers post an auction lot making it available for the Buy It Now option, is the extra Buy It Now Amount field at the bottom of the New Auction Lot Posting screen. I have created a test lot that uses the BIN option so that you can see what it looks like.

Sellers: all you have to do to make a lot available for the BIN option is to enter a value in the BIN Amount field when you are posting your auction lot.

Buyers: if an auction lot has the BIN option available you will see the Image Not Found logo. If you wish to buy the lot now, press the Buy It Now button at the bottom of the Auction Lot Display screen i.e. the screen where you place a bid on a lot.

You can use the Buy It Now option even if there are bids already on the lot. When bidding exceeds the BIN Amount the BIN option will be triggered and the lot will close. You will be notified by email a few minutes later as the auction closing program picks the lot up.

If you notice any issues or problems with the system, please let me know and I'll address them ASAP.


Regards ... Tim.

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margin

18 Jun 2012
12:13:19pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi all,
I was just wondering if the BIN option would have any affect on items that are relisted. Would the BIN price be reduced by 20% if the item were relisted or would it stay the same as the original BIN? As a seller on SOR I would prefer to have the BIN option lowered as it was relisted. When someone list an item in the auction the objective is to sell the item. It would also give the buyers a chance to get a real bargain on the items relisted for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time by ending competative bidding.
I would be interested in hearing input from everyone especially those who bid regularly on my items offered . Thank you for your input. MARGIN - Mario

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auldstampguy
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18 Jun 2012
01:05:39pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Mario,
At the moment, on a Relist the BIN Amount isn't reduced as the Min Bid Amount is, it is just copied from the original lot. It is something that I could very easily do, to make it work the same of the Min Bid. I'll chat it over with our Auctioneer and if he is OK with it, I'll make the change.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

18 Jun 2012
07:32:34pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Tim,
Just a note regarding the BIN.
It does NOT show up in search listings.
Thanks
Grant

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18 Jun 2012
07:53:49pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Grant,
Could you give me an example of what you mean? Send me an SOR Message.

Regards ... Tim.

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18 Jun 2012
08:35:21pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

as to reducing the BIN amount commensurate with the opening bid on relist items, I'm inclined to let the seller keep the original or change it at his/her discretion. That is, it would NOT automatically be reduced. Is there any strong feeling against that approach?

David the auctioneer

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22 Jun 2012
09:11:03am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I just tried the BIN function (bought a few stamps). I noticed that the BIN purchases do not appear in "View won lots" (?).

Arno


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StampCommune

22 Jun 2012
11:39:15am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Arno,
I could be wrong about this but,
It takes up to 15 minutes for a item to aprear in your list. Updates are done every 15 minutes on the hour. 15, 30, 45, 60.
SO...if you win a auction or BIN at 12:00:001 (1 second past) it will not show up until 12:15 when the database is updated.
Tim will correct me if I'm wrong.
Grant

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auldstampguy
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22 Jun 2012
06:27:07pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Grant, you are quite correct. The Auction Close program runs every 15 mins and until it picks up the lots to be closed it is not visible in the "View Won Lots" list.

Regards ... TIm.

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22 Jun 2012
10:03:55pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, thanks Grant and Tim, that must have been it. The purchases now show under my won auctions.

Arno

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Suzanne

08 Feb 2014
08:21:04pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I Know this is an old topic, but just putting in my two cents.


"I've never heard of an auction that doesn't end when it is scheduled to end. I may not be the most prolific bidder or seller, but I personally would like to see the auctions end on time and with no extensions. "




I agree. I don't like extensions either. It's only happened a couple of times for me, and I don't even know if the auction still has an extension, but I read the comments about going to bed thinking you have won something and then finding out that you have missed out on it because of the extension. It can happen to anyone, depending on the time zone. So I think having the auction end at the specific time is only fair. No extensions at all.

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08 Feb 2014
08:39:21pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have often puzzled over the worthiness of this rule. Frankly, I have no issue with "sniping"; I consider it part of the auction experience. I have won on eBay by sniping, but have lost twice as many as I have won - and I harbor no hard feelings as I believe everyone had an equal shot at it. If I feel strongly about a particular item, I will note the time it ends and, one minute before that time, I will enter the maximum I am willing to pay. If someone snipes me, they have to bid more than I was willing to pay anyway, so what is the problem? If there is no "anti-sniping" rule, then the exact time of closing is known and, since it is immutable, I can "tune in" at the proper time and give it my best shot.

Bobby

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08 Feb 2014
09:03:10pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree. Generally everyone will have a top price they are willing to pay. They can put it in by proxy and if someone outbids them, well, they had already decided what their maximum will be.

I admit I've used sniping on eBay. I actually find it better because I set my maximum and then let it go and I don't get into the minute by minute bidding and end up paying more than I actually had wanted - which of course has happened.

I find sniping a form of self-control that I might not otherwise have. I think the proxy on SOR is equivalent and an extension counters the spirit of the auction.

Just my nickel thoughts (wish we still had pennies here, my thoughts are going to get more expensive!)

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08 Feb 2014
10:30:13pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have a couple of things and a question:

1 - I was never in favor of the time extension, and am in favor of its removal.

2 - Since its implementation, I have changed my mind on the BIN feature in auctions. As it was implemented, it is solely up to the seller to set, not automatic unless the seller wants it. If an auction lot goes at the BIN price, that's the price the seller is happy to get for the item. If one is bidding on an item and someone else comes along and uses the BIN function or places a bid higher than the BIN price, they buy the item. It is in fact the ultimate snipe when you think about it as the BIN purchaser automatically trumps all bidders and wins the item. Sort of a devilish feature. Probably why I like it.

3 - Were there changes made to the time extension? I have had bids trumped and time extended on the lot, and I have placed bids and extended the time of a lot's closing. However, sometimes it seems as if the lot closes quickly, sometimes not. And what happens when the other bidder chimes in with a counter bid? The time extension should take effect again, shouldn't it to give the now outbid bidder a chance to bid again? How many times can an extension be added to the original closing date and time? I just don't understand how this works anymore. It doesn't seem to be consistent with the time extension thingy, but that could be due to my lack of understanding.

I think one improvement in the auction area that would solve many mysteries is to have an "Items Not Won" screen where a bidder can find out what happened to a lot that the bidder had placed a bid on. Now it just disappears from the radar screen and one doesn't know what happened to it.

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Revstampman

09 Feb 2014
12:14:46am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I just keep it simple. I bid my max and if I loose I didn't want it that bad or couldn't spend it at the time. Neither one will change even if I have an extra 24 hours. As a seller, If I have set a BIN price I am happy to sell at that price. If I have started the bid at a penny or a dollar (or any other amount) I have to be willing to sell for that amount, period! anything over that amount is a plus.
So, if I'm snipped, oh well. If you snipe a lot I'm selling I still get 1 increment more than I would have if you didn't did at all.
Just my perspective and 2 cents.

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09 Feb 2014
07:01:20am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

wow, sometimes the things you think are dead just keep resurrecting. I pooh poohed my wife when she said she saw a velociraptor chasing the dog, but maybe i ought to give it more credence, since some things really don't die.

On the time extension, yes, it adds time every instance that the lead bid changes hands, and only when it changes hands. If Michael and I were in a bidding war and each only increased by the minimum, the extension would be increased each time. If Michael warried of this and added $50, but I still added my quarters, the extension would end with Michael's huge proxy bid, assuming I didn't get up to 200 discrete bids.

I've always thought sniping ungentlemanly, and wouldn't like to see it introduced here, and certainly not just because eBay does it. There are many differences between eBay and SOR; i consider this to be one of the ones in the plus category. The 10-hour rule protects all but the most luxuriating sleepers, and using the automated outbid notification gives one ample notice of impending loss.

The bottom line here, as in eBay, with or without sniping, one may always enter the highest bid one is prepared to pay, and, whether that lot is lost (or won) at 8AM or 10:55 PM, one still has the same result, even if the process is different.

And Michael is correct that BIN precludes sniping and the extension.

Yikes! what was that!!!! I gotta go. Honey, where's the dog?

David



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09 Feb 2014
09:36:20am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I do not like the ten hour rule and I an in favor of its removal.

If it is not going to be removed then maybe the extension should only be 1/2 hour or change it to 24 hours, but I would rather see it eliminated completely.


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09 Feb 2014
02:16:08pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Dave, thanks for the explanation on how the extensions work. Juts gets confusing when two people are after a lot and it is past the original closing time. I think there's also a delay in the system changing the new closing time due to the update process. That also adds to the confusion.

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09 Feb 2014
02:24:24pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I also would like to see the extension removed. That is one of the reasons I no longer bid on SOR items.

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d1stamper
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09 Feb 2014
03:18:41pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Not sure if this is done on SOR, but do we have a vote on the extension, or take a poll of members?

Just asking.

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09 Feb 2014
05:19:37pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I was recently reading about the first auction ever held in the UK. It was at Southeby's, London in March, 1872.
No postal bids, no internet,no telephone bids....just a hand in the air and an accomodating auctioneer.
If you weren't there, you missed out, Simple as that.
However, bidding could go on for some time......no time limits, no restraints and no sniping.

Ahhh, bliss.

Thumbs Up

Some years ago, Delcampe came closest to a room auction by extending the time after the last bid by 2 minutes. I have no idea if that is still the case as most items are now BINS or only have one bid. Still, it cut the need for sniping.

Just sayin'.

Oh yes, a certain Mr.Scott attended the Sotheby's sale in March, 1872 and it soon became clear that he was upping the bids on items he was selling........Thumbs Down

Just sayin' !!




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09 Feb 2014
05:33:33pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm a new bidder and buyer in SoR auctions and I support the ten-hour rule.

When I first saw this rule I wasn't at all sure what to make of it but now that I've seen it working in practice I've been won over.

I like knowing that if my bid is beaten then I'll have a reasonable amount of time to bid again without having to worry about the closing time (which in many cases will be when I'm asleep).

I know some people believe that you should bid your maximum amount and let proxy bidding look after your interest. However, I don't agree with this and I don't want to reveal my maximum bid until I'm finally outbid.

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09 Feb 2014
07:11:12pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Oh yes, a certain Mr.Scott attended the Sotheby's sale in March, 1872 and it soon became clear that he was upping the bids on items he was selling"



That's not "sniping". Such activity is called "shilling", and is illegal.
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09 Feb 2014
07:57:22pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands


I've wondered before about the legal position of shill bidding in the UK, especially in the past.

The only reference I've seen to a successful prosecution under English law was to a case in 2010 that relied on fairly general wording on unfair business practices contained in a 2008 act.

My impression is that the law in the UK used to be much more interested in protecting the auction seller from unfair buying practices rather than protecting the buyer.

I often used to here references to auctioneers taking imaginary bids "off the chandelier" to encourage the bidding. I guess this would be be considered fraud now but I don't know if anyone was ever convicted for this.

In traditional room auctions, I believe it was acceptable for the seller to bid, usually to prevent the lot being sold at or near a low starting bid (or because of a change of heart).

Unlike shill bidding, I used to see lots of references to "ringing" (dealers colluding not to compete in an auction so that they could divide up the lots afterwards and maximise their potential profit).


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09 Feb 2014
09:45:58pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have been to many stamp auctions where I overheard people discussing bidding on larger lots, how they would divide them up between themselves, and who was bidding on what. I don't really have a problem with that. If you go with a friend and you are both interested in portions of a couple of lots, you wouldn't want to bid against your friend if you could work out a deal where you each get the lot and split it up afterwards. I have also been approached by people who knew I'd be interested in a large lot, but not in some of its pieces. They would offer to buy the unwanted items from me if I won the lot, and would not bid against me for it.

Several years ago there was shilling going on with a seller and a friend. eBay squashed that and kicked them both off the site.

On SOR, I don't see where that would happen as we pretty much know each other through communications, and bidding is not normally all that fierce. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. Once in a while a rotten apple comes along, but Dave, who, according to Tim, knows all, takes care of those shrews. Would be kind of funny if such a disrepute came along, not knowing the system fully sets up auction lots with a BIN, and the person's shiller hit the BIN amount! Just desserts.

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09 Feb 2014
10:22:20pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David the auctioneer:

My reading of this thread indicates that the membership of Stamporama
is out of step with its auctioneer.

Your last posting explains at length how the ten-hour rule works and why it exists, but it does not justify that existence.

There is room in the brave new world for you, David.

John Derry who favours elimination of the ten-hour rule

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10 Feb 2014
08:49:11am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

It exists, because when the auction was first started, the membership had an aversion to losing due to last minute sniping and wanted the opportunity (as some members above have pointed out) of coming back and making another bid. The extension was first 8 hours, and was later extended to 10 hours.

When setting up a system, there are always choices to be made. Some opinions will always be on the "other side" of the choice finally made. In the initial discussion (over 10 years ago), avoiding sniping took precedence over other concerns. In fact, in reviewing the discussion below, I see no concrete reasons expressed against the extension beyond "I don't like it". Possible exception is a confusion over how it works, and that is easily fixed by reading the FAQ.

Remember that this is a change that would affect all Stamporama auction users, but typically only the most voluble participants are heard from.

Since this is an important Stamporama issue, I suggest moving discussions of shilling/collusion on large lots etc to another thread.

Roy

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10 Feb 2014
09:27:13am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Roy brings up an excellent point. In keeping with the policy of this board to limit discussions to the that of original intent of the person making the first post, I have started (well, as soon as I finish this message anyway) a thread on collusion/shilling, which I believe is something we all oppose, and most likely fertile ground for a lively discussion.

Henceforth, since I do not have the ability to move individual posts, off topic comments in this thread will be deleted, and the person making the post will receive an SOR message notifying them of such, with the opportunity to repost their message in the proper place (or begin a new thread of their own making).

Thanks for your cooperation, and thanks to Roy for his suggestion.

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10 Feb 2014
10:23:06am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I am glad Roy gave an overview of the thought that went into making the 10-hour rule.

it is precisely to disenfranchise snipers that it was instituted. Seems silly to have a 14-day auction and all the activity happens in the last 7 seconds; for those who neither have the software nor the free time, there's a major disadvantage.

i am not sure why so many electronic auctions have an inviolate end time; perhaps it's related to mail bid auctions, as on-site auctions end when the bidding does.

Myself, little puck that I am, i revel in all the ways we're different from some of the bigger guys (read: eBay), and if it's also an improvement (which i clearly think it is), all the better.

David, the auctioneer


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10 Feb 2014
10:37:06am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I guess the reason I am really opposed to any extension of time is that I am an "auctionholic" (this is the 12 step program for addiction to auctions, isn't it? Laughing). Seriously, I really do have an issue here because, although I have entered a bid which I consider the highest I will go, if notified I am outbid, and I have the time, I'll bid even higher. I know, this is my personal demon, but it is very real. If the auction ends, I am precluded from spending money I shouldn't. So by extending the time in which I can "bid higher," you are actually facilitating my addiction! Don't you feel the least little bit of guilt?  Big Grin

Bobby
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10 Feb 2014
10:44:53am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Don't you feel the least little bit of guilt?"



Afraid not, Bobby. Nearly all rules (not just in Stamporama) are created to protect us from the unwanted actions of others. I'd hate to think what we might come up with if they were intended to protect us from ourselves!

Roy

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10 Feb 2014
10:53:09am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

As both a seller and a bidder I like the extension. As a seller it allows me to make more $$- nothing wrong with that. As a bidder it allows me to either continue bidding or drop out, but also give's the bidder time to contemplate instead of impulse bidding just to win the auction.
I would like to see something that indicates the extension beside just the time ending change.

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10 Feb 2014
10:56:15am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I believe you can turn off the email notification function, thereby living in blissful ignorance that your wallet is that much fatter, albeit at the expense of your album. In psychology, this is the first step in a treatment called exposure.

And, as we know, at the end of every auction anonymous meeting, we say the prayer that includes "accept the things I cannot change."

My response, though appropriate to the entry that preceded it, feels oddly like wandering. I might want to talk to the moderator about this. Nah, he probably knows about it anyway.

David, the auctioneer

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cocollectibles

10 Feb 2014
11:47:35am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I too like the extension idea; as a buyer I, as Rev earlier, usually place my highest bid and watch what happens. I rarely revisit the bid once outbid, so unlike Bobby, I'm off the wagon. Happy

However, as a seller, I cannot relate to the extension, only because it's never happened to my items. I guess it helps to have more than one bid. Sad

Cheers,
Peter

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10 Feb 2014
12:05:51pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Seems silly to have a 14-day auction and all the activity happens in the last 7 seconds; for those who neither have the software nor the free time, there's a major disadvantage."



If this is the norm, reducing the maximum length of listing time from 14 days might also merit consideration.
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10 Feb 2014
12:46:52pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

14 days is only an option, one of 14 options

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11 Feb 2014
11:37:39am
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That is correct -- the point I was trying to make is that there are too many options.

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Mike

11 Feb 2014
03:41:58pm
re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"there are too many options"




Without options the world would be a very boring place.

"Variety is the spice of life" is a saying that has been around almost 225 years.

Mike

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Woodstock

11 Feb 2012
06:48:08pm

I would like to suggest that a change be made in the auction rules as follows:

Instead of moving the closing time ahead 8 hours when a bid has been made on an item within the last ten hours, I would suggest that moving it ahead to the same time the next day would be much fairer to the bidders.

Case in point: I have bid on a lot that closes at 8:00 PM. Someone bids against me before the lot closes and I respond with a counter offer. I retire for the evening, feeling that I have won the lot. Unfortunately, the lot now closes at 4:00 AM when I do not have a chance to respond. I lose, the seller loses a higher bid, and the "sniper" wins.

Thank you for your consideration.

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amsd

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11 Feb 2012
07:19:55pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

unless you sleep for more than 8 hours, there is always the possibility of you getting the lot during waking hours. A counter bid automatically increases the length for UP TO 8 hours, depending on when it's placed.

in either scenario, there are always possibilities of losing the lot because you're asleep or at work or....

or is my math wrong?

David

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Bobstamp

11 Feb 2012
07:22:55pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm thinking that a 24-hour "grace period" would be unfair to sellers. In the case of an "auction duel," it could take days to resolve. Now I don't like losing lots either, so I am in the habit of bidding the maximum amount I want to spend. Then, if I lose, so be it. I do this on eBay as well. Snipers are basically wasting their time on me.

Bob

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auldstampguy

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11 Feb 2012
08:13:52pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

The auction is actually set for 10 hours, that is if the high bidder changes within 10 hours of the expected auction closure, the closing time is set to 10 hours from the time that the high bidder changed.

Regards ... Tim.

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Woodstock

11 Feb 2012
08:18:29pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David: Your math may be correct, but the fact remains that most people are not up and about at 4:00 AM. If I lose because I'm at work, school, etc., it is my fault. To tell me that I might have to sit up all night to counter bid is absurd.

Bob: Even under the present system "bidder wars" can take place. Unfair to the sellers, you say? I think not! If I were selling I would be overjoyed if the bidding went on and on, and up and up.

Tim: My case in point is real. Yes, I can bid what I feel is my maximum, but what might be my maximum right now may not be such at a later time. And, while I may be high bidder now, I would have to be "up all night" to guarantee a win.

Perhaps extending the bidding hours from 10 to 12 might be able to correct this without having to extend it a full 24. Any possibility that could be a consideration?

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michael78651

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11 Feb 2012
09:13:05pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

But if when you place a bid, you bid the highest amount that you are willing to pay for the item you don't need any additional time. The lot closes on time. If you are outbid, then the item sold for more than you were willing to pay for it anyway, so there is no reason to whine about it.

While I know that I will not win the argument here. The constant extension of end times is frustrating to me as a bidder. I have to constantly check to see if the closing time has changed and what time it will close. Sellers have to wait and wait for the items to close when all of their other items have closed before they can get payment. The process is frustrating and unfair as seen by the post complaining that the extended time isn't enough. How much extra time is enough? You win it from me, I was trying to get to the computer to check on my bid, but had to go to the bathroom and the lot closed. Not fair to me. I need more time, so extend it more. I beat you, you had a last minute phone call and missed the closing. Not fair. I do shift work; I have rotating shifts; I sleep at night; I sleep during the day; I live in a different time zone why should I have to get up at 4AM my time. Accommodate me!!!!! More time! More time!! Call the Wahmbulance. This can go on and on, and it will never be fair, because it can't be fair just by its nature. One closing time, finite in nature. No one can complain. Everyone knows when a lot is going to close, and don't have to worry about any games with the clock. Bid that highest amount that you are willing to pay for the item. By not bidding the highest amount, and not winning the item, then you only have yourself to blame, not the clock or the one who was the high bidder.


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Bobstamp

11 Feb 2012
10:32:16pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Woodstock said, "I can bid what I feel is my maximum, but what might be my maximum right now may not be such at a later time."

I understand this sentiment. I have often increased my bid after an initial bid, having convinced myself that I really really really do want that stamp (or cover, or whatever). But isn't that my problem? If I am so unsure of my desires, can I really blame someone else if they outbid me, no matter when that bid comes in and proves to be the winning bid? I have lost bids not because I was asleep or at work or taking a shower or enjoying conjugal bliss, but simply because I forgot that the auction was closing! In the end, auction happiness depends on bidders placing their maximum bids and forgetting it. Anything else is gambling, no matter when the auction closes.

Bob

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michael78651

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11 Feb 2012
11:09:54pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

...and it makes no sense to adjust it so that in one time zone auctions don't close at 4AM, because it will be 4AM someplace else. If it's not fair for one time zone, it's not fair for any time zones.

It is what it is here. I don't care for it, but I tolerate it. If the site charged fees to sell, I wouldn't like it at all, so I guess that is the trade off.

I understand that SOR wants to keep things on friendlier terms like a "club", and not have the competitiveness of the commercial sites.

I just like it when people complain about the current way not being fair. Their arguments fall right into the reasons for having fixed end dates and times for auctions.

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PDougherty999

11 Feb 2012
11:29:18pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I guess I'm not seeing the issue of where someone feels that they are not getting enough time to counter bid on our site.

If you are out bid, you recieve and email notification AND 10 hours to get back and counter bid. So if you went to bed at 9PM as a high bidder, and someone outbid you as at 10PM, you still have until 8AM the next morning to counter the bid.

If the lot is important to you, then I would think that you would be checking up on it in the morning to see if you won or if you need to up your bid again. I think the system here is more fair than on eBay. If someone bids there in the last few seconds, then you would be screwed as they don't extend the time. At least here, that sniper actually screws himself in that he has just set himself up for a counter bid by extending the time for another 10 hours. And when someone does that to me here, i know that I really need to get serious and that's when I break down and use that maximum bid tool.

---Pat

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michael78651

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11 Feb 2012
11:44:24pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

ditto, Pat

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youpiao

12 Feb 2012
12:54:04am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Ditto, Miguel.

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Woodstock

12 Feb 2012
06:22:47am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

There will be no further posts from this member. The point has been lost.


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Stampme

13 Feb 2012
11:27:33am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I like the system the way it is set up. Have I lost items because someone bid just before the ten hour end time, extending the auction. Yes. An auction is always an unknown. Winning and losing is part of life. There is usually a balance.

Bruce

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Mike
13 Feb 2012
05:21:43pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

This whole subject just goes to prove what a great place SOR is, with all of the diverse opinions, concerning every aspect of stamp collecting and no one has to jump, shout, point fingers, cuss or swear, simply because they don't get their way. That's probably the main reason SOR is growing at such a tremendous rate and still attacting good, quality members worldwide.

Thank all of you, ladies and gentlemen, for making Stamporama such a wonderful site to enjoy.

Mike

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Madame

14 Feb 2012
09:26:06am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I've never heard of an auction that doesn't end when it is scheduled to end. I may not be the most prolific bidder or seller, but I personally would like to see the auctions end on time and with no extensions.

Judy

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Bobstamp

14 Feb 2012
10:18:56am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Before internet auctions, all auctions went on until there were no more bids, which is precisely why I don't like eBay and other on-line auctions, but nevertheless use them.

As far as I'm concerned, our Stamporama auction emulates in-person auctions. The only difference is that in an actual auction the time between the last bid and the hammer is a matter of seconds, because everyone who is interested in buying is right there in person or connected by phone, and has the opportunity to place another bid. Since not everyone can be at their computer at the scheduled closing time of an auction, and a new bid comes in, it makes sense to have an extension which gives them time. Both buyer and seller benefit.

Bob

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michael78651

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14 Feb 2012
12:59:31pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's not exactly true. Mail Bid auctions end at a finite date and time. Internet auctions are a hybrid of those.

In live auctions there are strategies that are very similar to sniping, and other strategies are used to "attack" one's competition. Also, live auctions have a finite date in which the selling price of an item will be resolved.

Different venues for auctions require different tactics be used to be successful. The "floating" auction here is like a baseball game that goes to extra innings, so one doesn't know when it will end. I stick a bid on an item, and don't have the time to play this type of game by checking back all the time to see what the new end date is for the item. I know I miss out on many items, and probably so do many others. If there was a finite end date and time many lots would probably receive more bidding competition near the closing time, resulting in higher sales prices for sellers.

The structure of the auctions here makes it more conducive for buyers, because lower sales prices are the result. However, you have to understand that the rationale of the Stamporama founders for this is to keep things friendly in a club atmosphere.

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Bobstamp

14 Feb 2012
01:24:29pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thanks for educating me, michael78651. (michael78651… Sounds like a dystopian sic-fi moniker… Perhaps it is, since the internet certainly shows dystopic signs!)

Anyway, I hadn't thought of mail-bid auctions, nor was I aware that brick-mortar-flesh-and-blood auctions had time limits. How would that work, assuming two people were competing and both had bottomless pockets?

I have never thought of the Stamporama Auction as being broken in any way, so I see no need to fix it.

Bob

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14 Feb 2012
01:29:27pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Supreme Auctioneer for life:

I'm with Madame Judy on this issue, firm auction lot bid-closing times. But, what the heck, I'll retain my membership and auction participation whatever rules are in place.

I've been outbid on a considerable number of "wanted" Stamporama auction lots and, truth be known, it's always been my fault.

John Derry

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Woodstock

14 Feb 2012
03:18:19pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I wasn't going to comment on this issue again, but recent comments require clarification.

I would like to make something absolutely clear. I never stated that I thought anything on Stamporama was "broken", nor did I consider my observation a "complaint". Those who would categorize my statements as such are not only(sadly) mistaken, but also don't seem to recognize an honest attempt at trying to suggest possible improvements.

So, continuing to think about the auction and this "instructive" discussion, several thoughts came to mind.

First, that wise old sage Yogi Berra was notorious for his concocted quotes, one of which goes, "It ain't over 'til it's over."

Secondly, It is unfortunate that the truism "It isn't over until the fat lady sings", doesn't quite fit an online auction. Besides, all of our ladies are gorgeous.

So, what to do, what to do?

Leave it alone....yes, that's a choice! Although, as some members have mentioned, the time extension thing is an odd one.

Or

Bring it back to a real, unadjusted, straightforward, time ends when time ends auction.

My Vote?

Well, from the deluge generated by my first post did you actually think I was going to say?

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Mike
14 Feb 2012
05:19:53pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's funny Bob and a good choice to make.

A wise old guy from England once said "The better part of valor is discretion". I have been known to snipe auctions, on another site, because I really don't like getting into bidding wars, but certainly can understand both sides of this controversy. I agree with most responders, in the fact that if one wants a stamp they should put their maximum bid in and let it ride, but on the other hand, I have also raised my bids because others have outbid my initial bid on a stamp that I really did want to own, so have consequently raised my bid even higher. On the other hand, I do think that 10 hours is too long of an extension after a bid is made, but don't know what the magic number of hours would be. I think I would liken it to a beautiful Mockingbird, on a branch in your back yard, that you would like to have in your house, singing those lovely songs. If you don't grab it before it flys away, you lose and it's the end of that thought.

Mike

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michael78651

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14 Feb 2012
06:43:57pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bobstamp - Of course "flesh and blood" auctions have time limits. There is a date set when the auction occurs. Each lot is then put up for bids. Bidding continues until the auctioneer makes the last call as the bidding ceases for an item and the lot is sold. The auction then moves on to the next lot. Such an auction is not suspended, because someone was the last to bid and then the previous high bidder gets hours or days to determine whether to bid higher. It happens then and there. If the auction house/stamp dealer holds an auction on February 25, the auction begins and ends on that date.

Also, as I stated, I understand the rationale behind the extended hours within the "club" atmosphere. I may not agree with it, but by my participating in the auctions here as a buyer, I accept it from that standpoint. No one agrees with everything. If I took major exception to how things ran here, I would have left a long time ago (no wise cracks now).

New England Bob - Many of my comments were meant to be general in nature and not directed to anyone in particular. That's why I tried to keep them in the third person. I can see where some comments could have been construed to be directed at someone, so I apologize for any misunderstanding. (So what is your vote? lol)

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bhsxvet

15 Feb 2012
06:44:38pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

A lot of good discussion.
I would say that at a 'live' auction the auctioneer polls the assembled potential buyers until one offers a bid. He will then poll the buyers again allowing anyone to raise the bid. If a potential buyer responds with a bid, then the auctioneer has to poll the buyers again for a new bid. This goes on until there is no response from the assembled hopeful buyers, at which time the item is declared sold.
That is what the Stamporama auction tries to emulate. The difference I think is that at the live auction the auctioneer can usually poll the buyers in seconds, but because the Stamporama auction is global in scope it takes time to "poll" the members. Since no one really knows how long this requires a length of time was picked. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. The process seems fair to me. The hard part is to pick the length of the extension (time needed to poll potential buyers) after the bid.
My 2c worth.

Brian
(I have to say I have never put anything up for sale and only buy occasionally. But I like that I can place a bid before I go to bed and if it is the high bid know that I can go to sleep because I have at least 10 hours(from my bid time) to check in and see what is happening.)

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webweaver

12 Jun 2012
05:42:30pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have seen some online auction sites that give one minute to the auction after a last minute bid is placed. ebay will let you place your max amount and will auto bid for you up to your max bid and if the auction goes over that max bid you loss unless you place a higher bid before the end of the auction.
personally I will set my alarm if I am really wanting the item I am bidding on to make sure that I can bid if I need to. If I am going to be away from the computer or home I will place my max bid.
Everyone has their own way of doing things and no one way is right or wrong its just a personal way of doing things. I think as a club with members all over the world it is best to take things with a grain of salt realizing that everything is not perfect. Compromise is a must and just sit back and enjoy life and membership with the club

Richard Brink

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Stampaholic

14 Jun 2012
10:22:39am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I believe the purpose of the 10 hour rule was to eliminate sniping. I hate sniping. They even have computer programs for sniping. Not kosher.
Feebay is really bad for this. That's one of the reasons I like BINs a lot. (and which
it appears we might be getting soon {See topic on BINs}).

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
14 Jun 2012
10:36:16am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Tim and I have been talking about the mechanisms for BIN and our 10-hour rule. We will keep the 10-hour rule in place for all auctions EXCEPT for BIN. Once someone has engaged the BIN option, or a bidder has reached or exceeded the BIN price, that auction closes and the BIN bidder takes it home. BIN trumps 10-hour rule, expressed mathematically as BIN/10H. And just to be clear, a lot offering BIN still has the 10H until BIN is engaged.

10H was, indeed, created to eliminate sniping, and while it may not work perfectly in a multi-time zone site like ours, it does level the playing field pretty well.

David the auctioneer

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StampCommune

14 Jun 2012
12:34:29pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi David,
Just to clarify the new BIN option coming...
A lot is placed for a penny with a BIN of 10 cents.

Bidder one places a bid of a penny...
Bidder two comes in and places a bid of 6 cents and takes current winning bid.
Bidder one COMES BACK and places a bid of 11 cents...
(The prices above are for example so it is kept as basic as possible)

So what you are saying is...

The auction will be closed AUTOMATICALLY closed since the BIN option was still available and will be closed at the BIN price?

Just want to be sure everyone is on the same page and understands the engagement.

Grant
~ Stampcommune ~

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Liz

14 Jun 2012
12:51:59pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That's different.

Normally a BIN option disappears once a bid has been placed at just the starting bid, unless that person choses the BIN option and pays that higher price immediately (i.e. purchases the lot outright). If the BIN option is chosen the lot automatically closes.

IF a bid is placed below the BIN option, the BIN option is no longer valid and bidding goes on as normal until the closing time of the lot chosen by the seller. The price could go well over the originally BIN offered price.

In fact on most sites the BIN option totally disappears from the listing. It is no longer seen by a potential buyer once a bid has been placed on the lot.

In other words what you're saying is that a seller would never sell a lot for more than the BIN amount.

Liz



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Mike
14 Jun 2012
01:12:49pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, I agree, wholeheartedly, with what Lis just said. I think the BIN function should disappear if someone bids on a stamp but does not use the BIN feature. It would then revert to an auction and would continue on as such. Otherwise the winning bid would be set by the BIN price and that would defeat the purpose of offering a special price for the BIN feature.

Mike

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
14 Jun 2012
02:45:42pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

the way it will work is how Grant described it.

If a bidder actively employs BIN, auction closes; if bidder merely reaches the BIN level, auction still closes. The lot will NEVER close for more than the BIN price, and once that price is reached, regardless of how, the lot closes.

BIN option stays open until the auction closes

David the auctioneer

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StampCommune

14 Jun 2012
02:49:31pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thank you for verifying.
Things are going to get interesting around here...Thats why I love this place, It's different.
Grant

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Woodstock

14 Jun 2012
03:48:41pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

So, if I understand it right, a seller will never see competitive bidding above the BIN price. As a result, the BIN option would only be worthwhile for a seller to use if he/she feels that nobody in their right mind would bid more than the BIN.

Yes?

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
14 Jun 2012
05:43:00pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, Bob, as in all BINs, it is incumbent upon the seller to use a BIN amount that s/he would happily receive, because that is the upper limit.

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15 Jun 2012
05:58:35am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David, I have to totally disagree with the way this is going to work. To put a limit on the lot is not fair to the seller or the buyers. Liz describes how it normally works on other sites. A seller would have to be crazy to use this option so I think Tim should save his time and not even bother making the change because as a seller, I would not use it.

Bob

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
15 Jun 2012
07:13:11am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bob, why are you willing to accept the BIN amount, that you set, at the opening of the auction but not at some later moment?

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amsd

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15 Jun 2012
07:18:11am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

And, just so were clear, BIN is completely optional. Sellers can offer it, or not.

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Woodstock

15 Jun 2012
07:27:07am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Thank you Bob Parkin for putting into more direct words what I was intimating in my previous post. This other way of "skinning a cat" as another Bob(Capestampman) points out is, indeed, quite "interesting" as Grant suggests, and surely would, in my humble opinion, make SOR "different", but not necessarily in a positive way.

I for one will not be using the BIN if it is adopted as described and thus agree that Tim's time could be better spent on other endeavors.

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15 Jun 2012
10:19:51am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David,

When I list a lot, I list it at the lowest I would accept. I would offer the buyer a chance to buy it quickly at a higher price, but if people are bidding on it I don't want it to end at the buy it now price. What would it hurt to keep it going? You know people are interested in the item why restrict them? Maybe it never gets to the Buy it Now price but who would not want to sell it for a higher amount? The Buy it Now is used to get a quick sale for the seller and a quick purchase for the buyer. Once bidding begins, it should continue until the end of the auction.

Every other auction site that I know of that uses Buy it Now, removes the buy it now option once a bid is placed and then it just becomes a regular auction.

I have sold many items here for WAY more than I could have ever anticipated.

I think you need to hear more from the sellers before implementing this. I'm probably not going to use it anyway but I definitely would not use this as it is currently proposed.

Bob

P.S. Thanks for hearing our opinions on this!!!

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StampCommune

15 Jun 2012
12:41:43pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Pro and Cons, I'm sure which ever way BIN is implemented there will be both. But, what other site does it this way? We have learned to sell with no reserve (although scary sometimes) and adopted to that.
I'm not saying yea or ney but I'm willing to give it a try. Once it is in place, time will tell weather or not the other auction sites follow SOR...wouldn't that be something, there does have to be a first somewhere.
And on the other hand, we learn from it and move on...
If you really look at both points, the buyer and seller, the buyer will gain much more from this, they may have the opportunity to never miss that one item...of course the seller has to offer it as a BIN.
Grant

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15 Jun 2012
09:46:50pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

The problem with a BIN that disappears as soon as a bid is placed is that it wastes the time of the seller to even spend any time thinking about what s/he is willing to let the lot go for.

The first potential buyer who likes the stamp, but doesn't want to pay the BIN price, can "kill" the BIN feature for everyone else by placing a minimum bid, even before it is seen by any other potential buyers. In my mind, this would make the feature useless for sellers, and for all potential buyers who aren't the first to see the lot.

Leaving the BIN as a "cap" to the price, will cause suspense (that's a good thing in an auction environment) as bids approach the BIN price -- who will be the first to "blink" and say "Ok, close enough, I'll take it!"

Personally, as a seller, I would not use a BIN feature that disappeared at the discretion of the first potential buyer. Or, I might use it, but BIN price would equal the minimum bid, making the item a "fixed price", rather than any form of auction.

Roy

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15 Jun 2012
10:04:12pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

We are mixing threads here, with BIN discussion and the "auction extension" discussion, but I thought I should also enter the "extension" discussion, because I was the one who built it into our first auction way back when. At the time, it was an 8 hour extension and has subsequently been continued and extended to 10 hours.

Unless I missed it in this long thread, I don't think that anyone has hit on the real reasons it was originally included in our club auction. The reasons are straightforward. We wanted a situation where no undue advantage accrued to anyone for any reason, including geography. We were (and still are) a small membership (relatively), low volume auction, but the membership is scattered around the globe in 24 time zones. Items that close at 9:00pm in New York, close at 3:00am in Belgium. Knowing that your competition for a lot was in Belgium, while you are in New York, you could obviously gain an advantage by withholding your top bid until just before the close. In fact, if he were the high bidder, you could take multiple "runs" against his bid until you found out where it was and finally topped it.

This is exactly the same scenario as the auction sites that extend the time by one minute, except that that presumes that all participants are poised over their computers. Not realistic for a thin, worldwide membership.

So, bottom line, the object of the extension is to level the playing field across many time zones - many of which will be sleeping or working while you are playing with your stamps.

Roy

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ConnieB

16 Jun 2012
04:24:47pm

Approvals

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm in the camp that would prefer the BIN to be available until there was at least one bid. Then the BIN option should go away.

Although the BIN option is convenient for buyers who want an item at an established price and not risk losing it to someone else, why would a seller want to artificially "cap" a listing if two or more bidders want to sort it out to a different total? If BINs can cap bidding pricing, then listings are in essence "store" items that can be "bartered" down with a bid attempt if others let them get away with it. But if someone at any time can press the BIN Stop button, doesn't this violate the "anti-swooping" and "anti-snatching" philosophy that the time extension feature was designed for? Didn't people want everyone to be comfortable with the pricing they'd finally decided on and let the transaction be finished only when it was finished?

Sometimes bidders may be evaluating and reevaluating what they want to spend. That takes time. And, some may not like to have an untimely choice taken from them at any moment. If the designers didn't want to impose a time limit that would stop that "natural" bidding process, why would the designers now want to impose a mandatory pricing cap? I think the BIN feature should be an either/or design not an either, but only until BIN price is reached.

Why take the fun out of bidding competitions and open the door to a new type of snarking I thought SOR members didn't want?

IMHO

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
16 Jun 2012
04:49:40pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Every time someone here tries to justify how fair the time extension is to prevent the gutter trash, meanie snipers from winning auction lots, their examples show exactly how unfair the system actually is. There is no true "leveling of the playing field", and by Roy's own example, once again, the system is shown to be flawed and how it can be manipulated so that the meanie sniper actually wins the item by bidding on the item at a time that the previously high bidder is sleeping.

If you really wanted to punish the meanie snipers and "level the playing field", there is a way to give the bidder who is asleep in Belgium (using Roy's example)a chance to outdo the meanie sniper, for example:

1- auction lot has 1 hour to go.
2- current high bidder (bid is $4.25 with proxie to $4.95) lives in Belgium, the moon, anywhere
3- meanie sniper places a bid in the last hour and becomes the high bidder (lot is now at $5.00)
4- No extension of time. Lot closes at regular time. Email goes out to the previous high bidder alerting the bidder that there was a meanie sniper attack on the bid, and tells the previously high bidder not to cry or whine about the act of violation and states what the new high bid is ($5.00) and how much the meanie sniper has in the proxie bid ($6.95)
5- the previously high bidder has 12 hours to decide if the previously high bidder wants to place a bid that is one bid increment above the current high bidder's (the meanie sniper) proxie ($7.45). If the previously high bidder agrees, then the previously high bidder wins the auction lot for $7.45. If not, then the meanie sniper wins the auction lot for $5.00. If the previously high bidder doesn't respond "yeah" or "nay" within 12 hours, then the meanie sniper automatically wins the auction lot.
6- no need to call the waaaaamublance
7- as in all online auctions bid the highest that you are willing to pay for it. If you are outbid, then the selling price was higher than you were willing to pay anyway.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
16 Jun 2012
05:05:53pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Regarding BIN, it doesn't make sense to have an auction lot where the BIN (which is a convenience to buyers) controls the final selling price if the auction lot went to full term.

Many buyers would rather use the BIN rather than wait for the auction lot to close, thus paying a "premium" for the option to BIN. However, if someone places a bid in hopes of getting the item for less than the BIN price, then that bidder is making a gamble. The BIN option should disappear once the bid is placed, and normal auction rules apply. If bidding pushes the final price over the original BIN, that is the nature of the auction. To make the BIN the actual highest bid possible for the auction lot doesn't make sense and defeats the nature of auctions.

No other auction site will use this process as it will minimize the final selling price, thus hurting sellers and the auction sites that earn their money off the final value fee commissions.

The net result at SOR will be a BIN function that is not fair to sellers, and as some sellers have already stated, they will not use it. So, what's the point of even doing this? One of these days, SOR has to consider what is "fair" to the sellers, rather than working to minimize the selling price for buyers. When you do that, maybe more people will take the time to sell here.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
16 Jun 2012
06:39:55pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

thank you all for your thoughtful comments, some in support of and some in opposition to, the proposed BIN. A few of you have even described approaches you might take were you devising the system. I've read them all.

We will be implementing BIN shortly. Tim has code developed and will be testing it before it goes live, but it's coming to an auction soon.

So a few comments. BIN is a convenience that sellers may use. It is not, as some contend, an attempt to take money away from sellers; frankly, the seller chooses the BIN amount and if it's a king's ransome, and someone's willing to pay it, then good on you, mate. That amount should be good at the opening second as well as the closing instant. If it isn't, the seller miscluculated.

"Now" exists at any point, not just prior to the first bid, always giving a buyer the option of taking it with a single bold move.

The BIN amount does serve as a defacto cap, but it does in eBay and other auctions too. The difference occurs only in the cap never going away, always giving a buyer the option to BIN. And, occasionally it will fall to a buyer who merely meets that amount. Seller got the amount he requested; buyer got the thing. Good on both a' you.

We may set new trends here and blaze new trails. Or find that it doesn't work at all.

Yes, we do this differently than does eBay, but there's much that we do that's different from eBay, starting with free listings and commission-free sales. That's one of the reasons we needn't worry about hurting our commissions: we don't get any. And, if that really does dampen the final sale price, I guarantee the seller chose an amount that was too low.

So, please feel free to use, or not.

David, the auctioneer


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16 Jun 2012
06:53:44pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree with ConnieB and Michael#s. Like I said previously, I probably wouldn't use the BIN option even if it worked like other auction sites, but I'm finding it almost hard to believe that we are being given a take it or leave it option about the change. So far there have been several objections in this thread and one neutral comment saying lets see how it goes. I have seen no positive response from other major sellers in this thread (Liz, Lee, bismark1, margin, etc.). My main concern is having Tim make a major programming change and then no one using it. His efforts can be better used elsewhere.

Also, will there be a search option so that we can see all the lots that have a BIN option?

Edit...

Speaking as a seller - In my opinion the BIN should not be a "King's Ransom's Price" above the original buying price. If that were the case, no buyer is going to use it. It should be a slightly higher price that the seller would like to receive for the item for the convenience of an immediate sale.

Once bidding begins, then it should be game on. I can't see any reason why there should be a limit to how much the item should sell for, even if the seller requested a BIN price. It works both ways. You could also be forcing the bidders to bid at the BIN price to get out of the bidding war. Either way, it just doesn't make sense to me. I'm looking forward to see how this is going to play out.

Bob

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Woodstock

16 Jun 2012
08:08:42pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Being optional, those of us who do not choose to participate in the "BIN Game" will, perhaps, ignore it. As a seller and as a buyer on other sites I tend to dismiss BIN listings as too gimmicky, and thus do not participate. This, however, is just my opinion and nothing more.

Thanks to all for the opportunity to express my thoughts on this subject, and good luck to all sellers and bidders once the new concept is active.

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auldstampguy

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16 Jun 2012
08:49:31pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Bob P,
I didn't think of including a filter on the Buy It Now lots. Good Idea, I have added it into the enhancement.

I have completed the changes to the system for the Buy It Now function. I'll implement it at about 7:30am tomorrow (Sunday 17th) Central Time. If you are on the system then, try not to use the Auction too much. I'll let you know when I have finished the implementation.

As with all things in Stamporama, the Buy It Now function is completely optional from both the Sellers and Buyers point of view. From my point of view, I'm hoping that you sellers post some of those Pre-1900 covers with a Buy It Now. I'll be using it.

Watch for my post on this thread in the morning to let you know that the implementation is complete.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

16 Jun 2012
10:48:52pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Look forward to the BIN.
Thank you Tim, Roy and the volunteer committee for implementing this feature.
Although different from other sites BIN feature, I believe this will allow for a very friendly, competitive environment for sellers while giving more opportunity for bidders or buyers, which ever the case may be.
Grant
~ StampCommune ~


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Mike
17 Jun 2012
12:03:54am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree that the BIN feature may just bring some new excitement to SOR auctions, but since most items are selling with only one bid on them anyway, how much is it really going to affect the auction. Tim should take Sunday off and enjoy his kids and Father's Day.

Happy Father's Day to all that qualify.

Mike



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michael78651

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17 Jun 2012
01:42:15am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Good point.

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auldstampguy

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17 Jun 2012
08:14:10am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Everyone,
I have implemented the Buy It Now (BIN) option. The only immediate difference that you will see until sellers post an auction lot making it available for the Buy It Now option, is the extra Buy It Now Amount field at the bottom of the New Auction Lot Posting screen. I have created a test lot that uses the BIN option so that you can see what it looks like.

Sellers: all you have to do to make a lot available for the BIN option is to enter a value in the BIN Amount field when you are posting your auction lot.

Buyers: if an auction lot has the BIN option available you will see the Image Not Found logo. If you wish to buy the lot now, press the Buy It Now button at the bottom of the Auction Lot Display screen i.e. the screen where you place a bid on a lot.

You can use the Buy It Now option even if there are bids already on the lot. When bidding exceeds the BIN Amount the BIN option will be triggered and the lot will close. You will be notified by email a few minutes later as the auction closing program picks the lot up.

If you notice any issues or problems with the system, please let me know and I'll address them ASAP.


Regards ... Tim.

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margin

18 Jun 2012
12:13:19pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi all,
I was just wondering if the BIN option would have any affect on items that are relisted. Would the BIN price be reduced by 20% if the item were relisted or would it stay the same as the original BIN? As a seller on SOR I would prefer to have the BIN option lowered as it was relisted. When someone list an item in the auction the objective is to sell the item. It would also give the buyers a chance to get a real bargain on the items relisted for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time by ending competative bidding.
I would be interested in hearing input from everyone especially those who bid regularly on my items offered . Thank you for your input. MARGIN - Mario

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auldstampguy

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18 Jun 2012
01:05:39pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Mario,
At the moment, on a Relist the BIN Amount isn't reduced as the Min Bid Amount is, it is just copied from the original lot. It is something that I could very easily do, to make it work the same of the Min Bid. I'll chat it over with our Auctioneer and if he is OK with it, I'll make the change.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

18 Jun 2012
07:32:34pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Tim,
Just a note regarding the BIN.
It does NOT show up in search listings.
Thanks
Grant

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auldstampguy

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18 Jun 2012
07:53:49pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Hi Grant,
Could you give me an example of what you mean? Send me an SOR Message.

Regards ... Tim.

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amsd

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18 Jun 2012
08:35:21pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

as to reducing the BIN amount commensurate with the opening bid on relist items, I'm inclined to let the seller keep the original or change it at his/her discretion. That is, it would NOT automatically be reduced. Is there any strong feeling against that approach?

David the auctioneer

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Rhinelander

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22 Jun 2012
09:11:03am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I just tried the BIN function (bought a few stamps). I noticed that the BIN purchases do not appear in "View won lots" (?).

Arno


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StampCommune

22 Jun 2012
11:39:15am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Arno,
I could be wrong about this but,
It takes up to 15 minutes for a item to aprear in your list. Updates are done every 15 minutes on the hour. 15, 30, 45, 60.
SO...if you win a auction or BIN at 12:00:001 (1 second past) it will not show up until 12:15 when the database is updated.
Tim will correct me if I'm wrong.
Grant

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auldstampguy

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22 Jun 2012
06:27:07pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Grant, you are quite correct. The Auction Close program runs every 15 mins and until it picks up the lots to be closed it is not visible in the "View Won Lots" list.

Regards ... TIm.

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22 Jun 2012
10:03:55pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Yes, thanks Grant and Tim, that must have been it. The purchases now show under my won auctions.

Arno

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doodles69ca

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08 Feb 2014
08:21:04pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I Know this is an old topic, but just putting in my two cents.


"I've never heard of an auction that doesn't end when it is scheduled to end. I may not be the most prolific bidder or seller, but I personally would like to see the auctions end on time and with no extensions. "




I agree. I don't like extensions either. It's only happened a couple of times for me, and I don't even know if the auction still has an extension, but I read the comments about going to bed thinking you have won something and then finding out that you have missed out on it because of the extension. It can happen to anyone, depending on the time zone. So I think having the auction end at the specific time is only fair. No extensions at all.

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08 Feb 2014
08:39:21pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have often puzzled over the worthiness of this rule. Frankly, I have no issue with "sniping"; I consider it part of the auction experience. I have won on eBay by sniping, but have lost twice as many as I have won - and I harbor no hard feelings as I believe everyone had an equal shot at it. If I feel strongly about a particular item, I will note the time it ends and, one minute before that time, I will enter the maximum I am willing to pay. If someone snipes me, they have to bid more than I was willing to pay anyway, so what is the problem? If there is no "anti-sniping" rule, then the exact time of closing is known and, since it is immutable, I can "tune in" at the proper time and give it my best shot.

Bobby

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08 Feb 2014
09:03:10pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I agree. Generally everyone will have a top price they are willing to pay. They can put it in by proxy and if someone outbids them, well, they had already decided what their maximum will be.

I admit I've used sniping on eBay. I actually find it better because I set my maximum and then let it go and I don't get into the minute by minute bidding and end up paying more than I actually had wanted - which of course has happened.

I find sniping a form of self-control that I might not otherwise have. I think the proxy on SOR is equivalent and an extension counters the spirit of the auction.

Just my nickel thoughts (wish we still had pennies here, my thoughts are going to get more expensive!)

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michael78651

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08 Feb 2014
10:30:13pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have a couple of things and a question:

1 - I was never in favor of the time extension, and am in favor of its removal.

2 - Since its implementation, I have changed my mind on the BIN feature in auctions. As it was implemented, it is solely up to the seller to set, not automatic unless the seller wants it. If an auction lot goes at the BIN price, that's the price the seller is happy to get for the item. If one is bidding on an item and someone else comes along and uses the BIN function or places a bid higher than the BIN price, they buy the item. It is in fact the ultimate snipe when you think about it as the BIN purchaser automatically trumps all bidders and wins the item. Sort of a devilish feature. Probably why I like it.

3 - Were there changes made to the time extension? I have had bids trumped and time extended on the lot, and I have placed bids and extended the time of a lot's closing. However, sometimes it seems as if the lot closes quickly, sometimes not. And what happens when the other bidder chimes in with a counter bid? The time extension should take effect again, shouldn't it to give the now outbid bidder a chance to bid again? How many times can an extension be added to the original closing date and time? I just don't understand how this works anymore. It doesn't seem to be consistent with the time extension thingy, but that could be due to my lack of understanding.

I think one improvement in the auction area that would solve many mysteries is to have an "Items Not Won" screen where a bidder can find out what happened to a lot that the bidder had placed a bid on. Now it just disappears from the radar screen and one doesn't know what happened to it.

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Revstampman

09 Feb 2014
12:14:46am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I just keep it simple. I bid my max and if I loose I didn't want it that bad or couldn't spend it at the time. Neither one will change even if I have an extra 24 hours. As a seller, If I have set a BIN price I am happy to sell at that price. If I have started the bid at a penny or a dollar (or any other amount) I have to be willing to sell for that amount, period! anything over that amount is a plus.
So, if I'm snipped, oh well. If you snipe a lot I'm selling I still get 1 increment more than I would have if you didn't did at all.
Just my perspective and 2 cents.

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amsd

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09 Feb 2014
07:01:20am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

wow, sometimes the things you think are dead just keep resurrecting. I pooh poohed my wife when she said she saw a velociraptor chasing the dog, but maybe i ought to give it more credence, since some things really don't die.

On the time extension, yes, it adds time every instance that the lead bid changes hands, and only when it changes hands. If Michael and I were in a bidding war and each only increased by the minimum, the extension would be increased each time. If Michael warried of this and added $50, but I still added my quarters, the extension would end with Michael's huge proxy bid, assuming I didn't get up to 200 discrete bids.

I've always thought sniping ungentlemanly, and wouldn't like to see it introduced here, and certainly not just because eBay does it. There are many differences between eBay and SOR; i consider this to be one of the ones in the plus category. The 10-hour rule protects all but the most luxuriating sleepers, and using the automated outbid notification gives one ample notice of impending loss.

The bottom line here, as in eBay, with or without sniping, one may always enter the highest bid one is prepared to pay, and, whether that lot is lost (or won) at 8AM or 10:55 PM, one still has the same result, even if the process is different.

And Michael is correct that BIN precludes sniping and the extension.

Yikes! what was that!!!! I gotta go. Honey, where's the dog?

David



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d1stamper

09 Feb 2014
09:36:20am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I do not like the ten hour rule and I an in favor of its removal.

If it is not going to be removed then maybe the extension should only be 1/2 hour or change it to 24 hours, but I would rather see it eliminated completely.


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michael78651

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09 Feb 2014
02:16:08pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Dave, thanks for the explanation on how the extensions work. Juts gets confusing when two people are after a lot and it is past the original closing time. I think there's also a delay in the system changing the new closing time due to the update process. That also adds to the confusion.

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yakimaboy

09 Feb 2014
02:24:24pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I also would like to see the extension removed. That is one of the reasons I no longer bid on SOR items.

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d1stamper

09 Feb 2014
03:18:41pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Not sure if this is done on SOR, but do we have a vote on the extension, or take a poll of members?

Just asking.

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londonbus1

09 Feb 2014
05:19:37pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I was recently reading about the first auction ever held in the UK. It was at Southeby's, London in March, 1872.
No postal bids, no internet,no telephone bids....just a hand in the air and an accomodating auctioneer.
If you weren't there, you missed out, Simple as that.
However, bidding could go on for some time......no time limits, no restraints and no sniping.

Ahhh, bliss.

Thumbs Up

Some years ago, Delcampe came closest to a room auction by extending the time after the last bid by 2 minutes. I have no idea if that is still the case as most items are now BINS or only have one bid. Still, it cut the need for sniping.

Just sayin'.

Oh yes, a certain Mr.Scott attended the Sotheby's sale in March, 1872 and it soon became clear that he was upping the bids on items he was selling........Thumbs Down

Just sayin' !!




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nigelc

09 Feb 2014
05:33:33pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I'm a new bidder and buyer in SoR auctions and I support the ten-hour rule.

When I first saw this rule I wasn't at all sure what to make of it but now that I've seen it working in practice I've been won over.

I like knowing that if my bid is beaten then I'll have a reasonable amount of time to bid again without having to worry about the closing time (which in many cases will be when I'm asleep).

I know some people believe that you should bid your maximum amount and let proxy bidding look after your interest. However, I don't agree with this and I don't want to reveal my maximum bid until I'm finally outbid.

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michael78651

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09 Feb 2014
07:11:12pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Oh yes, a certain Mr.Scott attended the Sotheby's sale in March, 1872 and it soon became clear that he was upping the bids on items he was selling"



That's not "sniping". Such activity is called "shilling", and is illegal.
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nigelc

09 Feb 2014
07:57:22pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands


I've wondered before about the legal position of shill bidding in the UK, especially in the past.

The only reference I've seen to a successful prosecution under English law was to a case in 2010 that relied on fairly general wording on unfair business practices contained in a 2008 act.

My impression is that the law in the UK used to be much more interested in protecting the auction seller from unfair buying practices rather than protecting the buyer.

I often used to here references to auctioneers taking imaginary bids "off the chandelier" to encourage the bidding. I guess this would be be considered fraud now but I don't know if anyone was ever convicted for this.

In traditional room auctions, I believe it was acceptable for the seller to bid, usually to prevent the lot being sold at or near a low starting bid (or because of a change of heart).

Unlike shill bidding, I used to see lots of references to "ringing" (dealers colluding not to compete in an auction so that they could divide up the lots afterwards and maximise their potential profit).


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michael78651

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09 Feb 2014
09:45:58pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I have been to many stamp auctions where I overheard people discussing bidding on larger lots, how they would divide them up between themselves, and who was bidding on what. I don't really have a problem with that. If you go with a friend and you are both interested in portions of a couple of lots, you wouldn't want to bid against your friend if you could work out a deal where you each get the lot and split it up afterwards. I have also been approached by people who knew I'd be interested in a large lot, but not in some of its pieces. They would offer to buy the unwanted items from me if I won the lot, and would not bid against me for it.

Several years ago there was shilling going on with a seller and a friend. eBay squashed that and kicked them both off the site.

On SOR, I don't see where that would happen as we pretty much know each other through communications, and bidding is not normally all that fierce. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. Once in a while a rotten apple comes along, but Dave, who, according to Tim, knows all, takes care of those shrews. Would be kind of funny if such a disrepute came along, not knowing the system fully sets up auction lots with a BIN, and the person's shiller hit the BIN amount! Just desserts.

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09 Feb 2014
10:22:20pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

David the auctioneer:

My reading of this thread indicates that the membership of Stamporama
is out of step with its auctioneer.

Your last posting explains at length how the ten-hour rule works and why it exists, but it does not justify that existence.

There is room in the brave new world for you, David.

John Derry who favours elimination of the ten-hour rule

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10 Feb 2014
08:49:11am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

It exists, because when the auction was first started, the membership had an aversion to losing due to last minute sniping and wanted the opportunity (as some members above have pointed out) of coming back and making another bid. The extension was first 8 hours, and was later extended to 10 hours.

When setting up a system, there are always choices to be made. Some opinions will always be on the "other side" of the choice finally made. In the initial discussion (over 10 years ago), avoiding sniping took precedence over other concerns. In fact, in reviewing the discussion below, I see no concrete reasons expressed against the extension beyond "I don't like it". Possible exception is a confusion over how it works, and that is easily fixed by reading the FAQ.

Remember that this is a change that would affect all Stamporama auction users, but typically only the most voluble participants are heard from.

Since this is an important Stamporama issue, I suggest moving discussions of shilling/collusion on large lots etc to another thread.

Roy

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10 Feb 2014
09:27:13am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

Roy brings up an excellent point. In keeping with the policy of this board to limit discussions to the that of original intent of the person making the first post, I have started (well, as soon as I finish this message anyway) a thread on collusion/shilling, which I believe is something we all oppose, and most likely fertile ground for a lively discussion.

Henceforth, since I do not have the ability to move individual posts, off topic comments in this thread will be deleted, and the person making the post will receive an SOR message notifying them of such, with the opportunity to repost their message in the proper place (or begin a new thread of their own making).

Thanks for your cooperation, and thanks to Roy for his suggestion.

Bobby Barnhart
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amsd

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10 Feb 2014
10:23:06am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I am glad Roy gave an overview of the thought that went into making the 10-hour rule.

it is precisely to disenfranchise snipers that it was instituted. Seems silly to have a 14-day auction and all the activity happens in the last 7 seconds; for those who neither have the software nor the free time, there's a major disadvantage.

i am not sure why so many electronic auctions have an inviolate end time; perhaps it's related to mail bid auctions, as on-site auctions end when the bidding does.

Myself, little puck that I am, i revel in all the ways we're different from some of the bigger guys (read: eBay), and if it's also an improvement (which i clearly think it is), all the better.

David, the auctioneer


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10 Feb 2014
10:37:06am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I guess the reason I am really opposed to any extension of time is that I am an "auctionholic" (this is the 12 step program for addiction to auctions, isn't it? Laughing). Seriously, I really do have an issue here because, although I have entered a bid which I consider the highest I will go, if notified I am outbid, and I have the time, I'll bid even higher. I know, this is my personal demon, but it is very real. If the auction ends, I am precluded from spending money I shouldn't. So by extending the time in which I can "bid higher," you are actually facilitating my addiction! Don't you feel the least little bit of guilt?  Big Grin

Bobby
"auctionholic"

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10 Feb 2014
10:44:53am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Don't you feel the least little bit of guilt?"



Afraid not, Bobby. Nearly all rules (not just in Stamporama) are created to protect us from the unwanted actions of others. I'd hate to think what we might come up with if they were intended to protect us from ourselves!

Roy

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10 Feb 2014
10:53:09am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

As both a seller and a bidder I like the extension. As a seller it allows me to make more $$- nothing wrong with that. As a bidder it allows me to either continue bidding or drop out, but also give's the bidder time to contemplate instead of impulse bidding just to win the auction.
I would like to see something that indicates the extension beside just the time ending change.

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amsd

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10 Feb 2014
10:56:15am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I believe you can turn off the email notification function, thereby living in blissful ignorance that your wallet is that much fatter, albeit at the expense of your album. In psychology, this is the first step in a treatment called exposure.

And, as we know, at the end of every auction anonymous meeting, we say the prayer that includes "accept the things I cannot change."

My response, though appropriate to the entry that preceded it, feels oddly like wandering. I might want to talk to the moderator about this. Nah, he probably knows about it anyway.

David, the auctioneer

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10 Feb 2014
11:47:35am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

I too like the extension idea; as a buyer I, as Rev earlier, usually place my highest bid and watch what happens. I rarely revisit the bid once outbid, so unlike Bobby, I'm off the wagon. Happy

However, as a seller, I cannot relate to the extension, only because it's never happened to my items. I guess it helps to have more than one bid. Sad

Cheers,
Peter

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10 Feb 2014
12:05:51pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"Seems silly to have a 14-day auction and all the activity happens in the last 7 seconds; for those who neither have the software nor the free time, there's a major disadvantage."



If this is the norm, reducing the maximum length of listing time from 14 days might also merit consideration.
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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
10 Feb 2014
12:46:52pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

14 days is only an option, one of 14 options

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tomiseksj

11 Feb 2014
11:37:39am

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

That is correct -- the point I was trying to make is that there are too many options.

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CapeStampMan

Mike
11 Feb 2014
03:41:58pm

re: Discussion of the 10-hour rule that extends auctions when high bidder changes hands

"there are too many options"




Without options the world would be a very boring place.

"Variety is the spice of life" is a saying that has been around almost 225 years.

Mike

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