Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Login to Like
this post
Is there a particular stamp or stamps you are referring to?
---Pat
Login to Like
this post
If it's US, at least 1 side will be straight edge. Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem).
Roger
Login to Like
this post
If it's US, at least 1 side will be straight edge. Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem).
This is true most of the time, however with older and some newer US stamps, a straight edge does not necessarily mean that the stamp came from a booklet, as the stamps were issued in panes with cut edges. Also, some booklet stamps come perfed on all four sides. Most of these were issued in booklet form only, however. Here are some examples of both by Scott number, and these are pictured in the Scott US Specialized Catalog:
3012a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2920a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2494a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2492a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
498f - center row of stamps are perfed all around
US booklets with die cut stamps will be imperf all around, even the center rows, like 2531b and 2490a.
US booklets of commemorative stamps often look like coil stamps, such as 2764a and 2847a.
Some US booklet stamps will have serpentine die cut perforations, while the sheet stamp of the same issue will have standard hole perforations.
Many other countries create booklets by simply separating sheet stamps and attaching them to booklet covers. That would be about the only way to tell if the stamp is a booklet stamp. With some British booklet stamps, the booklet stamp can be identified by a sideways watermark, but that is not always true either.
As you can see, there are many different ways that booklet stamps are manufactured. The Scott US Specialized is a great reference for US booklets and booklet stamps. Gibbons is the choice for British area. Scott is incomplete listing booklets from the British Commonwealth and Great Britain.
Login to Like
this post
to further explain Michael's comments, earlier US issues were printed usually in sheets of 4 or 6 panes, with guidelines between the panes. Most often, the guidelines were cut an straight edges resulted on certain stamps (for instance, the upper left pane of 100 definitives, would have straight edges along the right and bottom edges, resulting in straight edges on stamps 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90-100, with both 91 and 100 having two straight edges, if configured as 10x10 pane).
Login to Like
this post
The Scott US Specialized shows illustrations of those various booklet positions and cuttings.
Login to Like
this post
09:13:07pm
" .... Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem). ...."
There was a similar question raised in the Machin Forum (May-chin ) several years ago and again about a year ago. I posted this repy both times with a few minor corrections.
The key to differentiating between Machins from sheets, booklets or coils is to understand a little about how the printing and separating is accomplished.
**********************
" .... Telling a coil from a sheet is simple with either sharp young eyes or a 10x glass.
.
The stamps are printed in sheets and then the strips are cut either top and bottom or left and right sides. The cutting runs down the center or nearly the center of the line of perforations. That gives the tips of the perfs a distinct sharp straight line cut.
.
The other two sides are torn which means the separation of the tips of the perfs is somewhat raggety.
.
As a shorthand, Doug Myall has devised the TCTC notation with "T" being "torn" and "C" being "CUT". A sheet stamp is "TTTT" since it is torn on all four sides. (Or should be) A coil is either "TCTC" or "CTCT". That is the top, right side, bottom and left side in order with the opposite sides cut rather than torn.
.
On the other hand a booklet minisheet may also have some "Cut" perforations, but will never be the two opposite sides. Depending on where the stamp is, or was, in the booklet's layout that notation will be;
"CTTT" from the top middle,
"CCTT" from a top right hand corner,
"TCTT" from the right middle,
"TCCT" from a bottom right corner,
"TTCT" from the bottom middle,
"TTCC" from the left bottom corner,
"TTTC" from a left middle and finally
"CTTC" if the stamp was on a left top corner.
These possibilities exist because a booklet mini-sheetlet can consist of four, six or more stamps arranged either verticaly or horizontally.
.
So with a little practice it becomes quite easy to determine if a stamp is from a sheet ---"TTTT", a coil ---"TCTC" or "CTCT", or a booklet which will have either a single cut side or two adjacent cut sides as listed above.
There are a few exceptions but for the most part this will serve the average collector for most of the Machin definitive stamps he comes across.
One exception is when the perforations were absent between panes when the sheet was printed, so that when cut one or more edges of the panes will be imperforate once the booklet is assembled.
A common way of notating these variations is similar to the TCTC system but the edges are identified as; PPII, or PPIP and so on, or a I prefer; TTIT for Torn, torn, Imperf, Torn, or TTII for Torn, Torn, Imperf, Imperf, but that is my choice. ...."
.
Even with this seemingly comprehensive system, or these systems, there are a few exceptions, but they do not seem to be that common and are described in the notes in the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook, which is the irreplaceable bible of Machin collectors.
Thus, while many collectors are satisfied with having the simplified color/value variety for each Machin definitive stamp, which provides an impressive collection of some 440 different stamps, ( In 2011 when I wrote this note.) others, like myself choose to seek the many further varieties created by different shades, different fonts, different band arrangements and different sheet, coil, or booklet sources which creates the possibility of having several thousand different Machin stamps.
I have heard it said that the Machin series is boring but I contend that that can only happen to a collector who is not aware of the possibilities.
Now confusing is another matter, but with some practice and a good handbook most of the intricasies become very absorbing.
_________________
Charlie Jensen
Lecanto, Florida
*************************************
Subsequently there is a new wrinkle relating to some of the recent Machin self adhesive stamps that when printed are not cut in the manner described.
Royal Mail has added an overprint that runs in the background of many of the Machin stamps consisting of the words "Royal Mail" repeated in a wavy line. Near the right side of the stamp, in the area between the rear of the Queen's head they have altered the letters of the word "MAIL" to one of several possibilities, MSIL, MTIL, MBIL, MRIL, MCIL, which tells the collector whether the stamp originates in a Six stamp booklet, a Twelve stamp booklet, a Business sheet, a Roll of 10,000 coil stamps or a Custom booklet or minisheet. and I am quite sure that there is a MFIL catgory on the large Machin NVIs.
Then, as long as I am waxing portic about my precious Machins, they have altered the word "Mail" in the overprint on some Machins to the left of the Queen's profile near the eyes to indicate the year of printinp.( "M12L = 2012) My friend Michael Dodd has created a display for some stamp show in his native Australia that shows how interesting assembling a comprehensive collection of just the first and second class NVI Machins can be.
http://www.cddstamps.com/gb_security_machins.htm
It is worth a look.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Thanks all. Learned a lot both about US stamps (have to admit my post was about lick'm'n'stick'm stamps) and GB (never spent enough time to go that deep & depended on others to lead me down a bunny trail).
Roger
Login to Like
this post
Thanks to all who replied!
the question is about Canadian stamps.
Login to Like
this post
09:30:17am
" ... the question is about Canadian stamps. ...
Gee Whiz, I must have missed that !
Login to Like
this post
The Unitrade Canaian Specialized Catalog shows color photos of booklets that will identify position ofstraight edges etc--itshould help with most issues--early issues such as the admirals also had staight edges on sheet stock-it makes it a little more difficult to identify some positions but it does rule out some of the straight edges that are NOT from booklets.The editions from the past few years show the booklet photos--hope this helps.
Harold
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Sorry about spelling mistake on 1st post--should read Canadian---Harold--and I,m from Canada-EH
Login to Like
this post
Thanks, Bailey. That will help.
nas
Login to Like
this post
" ... the question is about Canadian stamps. ..."
hmm...uh...hmm..okay, I guess....
Login to Like
this post
The Unitrade Catalogue also lists prices for mint and used singles from the booklet panes.
I have seen other collectors try to complete a booklet pane from used singles. So, in the past year or so, I have created a file for an album for just Canadian booklet panes from used singles.
I think this can be a challenge, just to complete as many panes as you can by used singles.
Chimo
Bujutsu
Login to Like
this post
Just want to say that this post, old as it may be, has inadvertently answered a question I was about to pose regarding straight edges on Canadian stamps. Thank you. After reading the forum I am now aware that a number of Canadian sheets were cut at the edge of the stamp without a selvage.
I went onto ebay to see if this was the case with my problem stamps and, lo and behold, there were a number of sheets with straight edges, some around the whole sheet and others on 2-3 sides, being offered.
My only problem is that now I have a few stamps with straight edges that show as perforated on the displayed sheets! Go figure. Thought the problem was solved but unless they produced sheets with different configurations then I'm still at a loss. Like Bujutsu, I have started collecting the booklet stamps as they come up as well as the booklet panes when I can afford them. The imperf sheet stamps are a by-product of that exercise.
Login to Like
this post
03:24:08pm
How do you discern if a stamp is from a booklet pane, or from a sheet?
Login to Like
this post
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Is there a particular stamp or stamps you are referring to?
---Pat
Login to Like
this post
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
If it's US, at least 1 side will be straight edge. Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem).
Roger
Login to Like
this post
04:07:13pm
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
If it's US, at least 1 side will be straight edge. Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem).
This is true most of the time, however with older and some newer US stamps, a straight edge does not necessarily mean that the stamp came from a booklet, as the stamps were issued in panes with cut edges. Also, some booklet stamps come perfed on all four sides. Most of these were issued in booklet form only, however. Here are some examples of both by Scott number, and these are pictured in the Scott US Specialized Catalog:
3012a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2920a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2494a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
2492a - center row of stamps are perfed all around
498f - center row of stamps are perfed all around
US booklets with die cut stamps will be imperf all around, even the center rows, like 2531b and 2490a.
US booklets of commemorative stamps often look like coil stamps, such as 2764a and 2847a.
Some US booklet stamps will have serpentine die cut perforations, while the sheet stamp of the same issue will have standard hole perforations.
Many other countries create booklets by simply separating sheet stamps and attaching them to booklet covers. That would be about the only way to tell if the stamp is a booklet stamp. With some British booklet stamps, the booklet stamp can be identified by a sideways watermark, but that is not always true either.
As you can see, there are many different ways that booklet stamps are manufactured. The Scott US Specialized is a great reference for US booklets and booklet stamps. Gibbons is the choice for British area. Scott is incomplete listing booklets from the British Commonwealth and Great Britain.
Login to Like
this post
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
to further explain Michael's comments, earlier US issues were printed usually in sheets of 4 or 6 panes, with guidelines between the panes. Most often, the guidelines were cut an straight edges resulted on certain stamps (for instance, the upper left pane of 100 definitives, would have straight edges along the right and bottom edges, resulting in straight edges on stamps 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90-100, with both 91 and 100 having two straight edges, if configured as 10x10 pane).
Login to Like
this post
04:22:32pm
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
The Scott US Specialized shows illustrations of those various booklet positions and cuttings.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2012
09:13:07pm
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
" .... Not so with other countries (GB is a particular problem). ...."
There was a similar question raised in the Machin Forum (May-chin ) several years ago and again about a year ago. I posted this repy both times with a few minor corrections.
The key to differentiating between Machins from sheets, booklets or coils is to understand a little about how the printing and separating is accomplished.
**********************
" .... Telling a coil from a sheet is simple with either sharp young eyes or a 10x glass.
.
The stamps are printed in sheets and then the strips are cut either top and bottom or left and right sides. The cutting runs down the center or nearly the center of the line of perforations. That gives the tips of the perfs a distinct sharp straight line cut.
.
The other two sides are torn which means the separation of the tips of the perfs is somewhat raggety.
.
As a shorthand, Doug Myall has devised the TCTC notation with "T" being "torn" and "C" being "CUT". A sheet stamp is "TTTT" since it is torn on all four sides. (Or should be) A coil is either "TCTC" or "CTCT". That is the top, right side, bottom and left side in order with the opposite sides cut rather than torn.
.
On the other hand a booklet minisheet may also have some "Cut" perforations, but will never be the two opposite sides. Depending on where the stamp is, or was, in the booklet's layout that notation will be;
"CTTT" from the top middle,
"CCTT" from a top right hand corner,
"TCTT" from the right middle,
"TCCT" from a bottom right corner,
"TTCT" from the bottom middle,
"TTCC" from the left bottom corner,
"TTTC" from a left middle and finally
"CTTC" if the stamp was on a left top corner.
These possibilities exist because a booklet mini-sheetlet can consist of four, six or more stamps arranged either verticaly or horizontally.
.
So with a little practice it becomes quite easy to determine if a stamp is from a sheet ---"TTTT", a coil ---"TCTC" or "CTCT", or a booklet which will have either a single cut side or two adjacent cut sides as listed above.
There are a few exceptions but for the most part this will serve the average collector for most of the Machin definitive stamps he comes across.
One exception is when the perforations were absent between panes when the sheet was printed, so that when cut one or more edges of the panes will be imperforate once the booklet is assembled.
A common way of notating these variations is similar to the TCTC system but the edges are identified as; PPII, or PPIP and so on, or a I prefer; TTIT for Torn, torn, Imperf, Torn, or TTII for Torn, Torn, Imperf, Imperf, but that is my choice. ...."
.
Even with this seemingly comprehensive system, or these systems, there are a few exceptions, but they do not seem to be that common and are described in the notes in the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook, which is the irreplaceable bible of Machin collectors.
Thus, while many collectors are satisfied with having the simplified color/value variety for each Machin definitive stamp, which provides an impressive collection of some 440 different stamps, ( In 2011 when I wrote this note.) others, like myself choose to seek the many further varieties created by different shades, different fonts, different band arrangements and different sheet, coil, or booklet sources which creates the possibility of having several thousand different Machin stamps.
I have heard it said that the Machin series is boring but I contend that that can only happen to a collector who is not aware of the possibilities.
Now confusing is another matter, but with some practice and a good handbook most of the intricasies become very absorbing.
_________________
Charlie Jensen
Lecanto, Florida
*************************************
Subsequently there is a new wrinkle relating to some of the recent Machin self adhesive stamps that when printed are not cut in the manner described.
Royal Mail has added an overprint that runs in the background of many of the Machin stamps consisting of the words "Royal Mail" repeated in a wavy line. Near the right side of the stamp, in the area between the rear of the Queen's head they have altered the letters of the word "MAIL" to one of several possibilities, MSIL, MTIL, MBIL, MRIL, MCIL, which tells the collector whether the stamp originates in a Six stamp booklet, a Twelve stamp booklet, a Business sheet, a Roll of 10,000 coil stamps or a Custom booklet or minisheet. and I am quite sure that there is a MFIL catgory on the large Machin NVIs.
Then, as long as I am waxing portic about my precious Machins, they have altered the word "Mail" in the overprint on some Machins to the left of the Queen's profile near the eyes to indicate the year of printinp.( "M12L = 2012) My friend Michael Dodd has created a display for some stamp show in his native Australia that shows how interesting assembling a comprehensive collection of just the first and second class NVI Machins can be.
http://www.cddstamps.com/gb_security_machins.htm
It is worth a look.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Thanks all. Learned a lot both about US stamps (have to admit my post was about lick'm'n'stick'm stamps) and GB (never spent enough time to go that deep & depended on others to lead me down a bunny trail).
Roger
Login to Like
this post
06:54:56am
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Thanks to all who replied!
the question is about Canadian stamps.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Dec 2012
09:30:17am
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
" ... the question is about Canadian stamps. ...
Gee Whiz, I must have missed that !
Login to Like
this post
11:04:23am
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
The Unitrade Canaian Specialized Catalog shows color photos of booklets that will identify position ofstraight edges etc--itshould help with most issues--early issues such as the admirals also had staight edges on sheet stock-it makes it a little more difficult to identify some positions but it does rule out some of the straight edges that are NOT from booklets.The editions from the past few years show the booklet photos--hope this helps.
Harold
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
11:07:34am
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Sorry about spelling mistake on 1st post--should read Canadian---Harold--and I,m from Canada-EH
Login to Like
this post
06:26:16pm
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Thanks, Bailey. That will help.
nas
Login to Like
this post
09:22:12pm
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
" ... the question is about Canadian stamps. ..."
hmm...uh...hmm..okay, I guess....
Login to Like
this post
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
The Unitrade Catalogue also lists prices for mint and used singles from the booklet panes.
I have seen other collectors try to complete a booklet pane from used singles. So, in the past year or so, I have created a file for an album for just Canadian booklet panes from used singles.
I think this can be a challenge, just to complete as many panes as you can by used singles.
Chimo
Bujutsu
Login to Like
this post
05:02:58am
re: Canadian booklet pane singles
Just want to say that this post, old as it may be, has inadvertently answered a question I was about to pose regarding straight edges on Canadian stamps. Thank you. After reading the forum I am now aware that a number of Canadian sheets were cut at the edge of the stamp without a selvage.
I went onto ebay to see if this was the case with my problem stamps and, lo and behold, there were a number of sheets with straight edges, some around the whole sheet and others on 2-3 sides, being offered.
My only problem is that now I have a few stamps with straight edges that show as perforated on the displayed sheets! Go figure. Thought the problem was solved but unless they produced sheets with different configurations then I'm still at a loss. Like Bujutsu, I have started collecting the booklet stamps as they come up as well as the booklet panes when I can afford them. The imperf sheet stamps are a by-product of that exercise.
Login to Like
this post