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Asia/Other : India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

 

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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer

26 May 2013
09:11:09pm
Strange piece of postal history here. The stamp is fake -looks photo copied to me, but how would it get all the way to New York. Are the Indian Post office's that bad?? Any thoughts or comments.....does it have any value??
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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer

26 May 2013
09:12:01pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Here's a detail of the stamp.. obviously fake
Image Not Found

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michael78651

26 May 2013
11:31:51pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

It's amazing how some of the mail pieces get through the mails. It is considered an illegal franking, and there are people who collect such mail pieces. How much is it worth? Depends on how much someone wants to pay for it.

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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer

26 May 2013
11:36:41pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Michael,
Thanks for the input. I was wondering the Gandhi stamp is quite pricey now perhaps a real one was removed a the fake replaced it as it is not tied to the cover by a post mark.
Still a strange little puzzle

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michael78651

27 May 2013
01:48:02am
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Don't know. Whoever did it, also drew a blue line all around the stamp, or was it a postal clerk from India who did that?

I just now took a good look at the cover. There are two things that tell me that the illegal use was caught, and that adds to the intrigue of the cover. The hand stamp "T" generally means postage due. That would have been applied by India or perhaps another country that handled the cover before it got to the US. The US dfoesn't mark covers postage due with a "T" hand stamp. You will also see that there is a postage due hand stamp from the US post office in New York where the cover was probably received into the US.

Interesting piece for sure.

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jillcrow

27 May 2013
01:52:10am
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I don't think there were too many colour photocopiers around in 1949. It looks more like a picture cut out from something, like a magazine. The 10 rupee Gandhi stamp is the valuable one in the set.

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

27 May 2013
09:17:07pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

If it were mine, Ross, it would be a "keeper"and displayed in my album of curios.

John Derry

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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer

27 May 2013
09:23:00pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

John,
It is a keeper.. It found it's place of honor earlier today.
jillcrow,
I'm a little slow when it comes to the history of copier's , so I looked it up-1938
but I think your correct it's a picture not a copy.

"A patent attorney in New York named Chester Carlson developed the technique to place photoelectric images on paper in 1938. He placed sulfur on a zinc plate and charged it using static electricity. He then took an image written in Inida ink on a microscope slide and placed it on the charged plate. Exposing the area to an incandescent light, he removed the slide and placed lycopodium on the surface and then gently removed the powder in order to transfer the image to a piece of wax paper. This created the first photocopy."

Read more: History of the Copy Machine | eHow http://www.ehow.com/about_4605136_history-copy-machine.html#ixzz2UXvNsTDb"


(Modified by Moderator on 2013-05-27 22:22:47)

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

29 May 2013
01:10:05pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Well, Ross, copying may have been invented in 1938 but I am reasonably sure that such a complicated procedure was beyond the ability of the average producer if fraudulent postage any where in general and certainly not something that could be done in India.

In a similar vein, TV was invented in 1927 but didn't become readily available to the general public until about 1949-1950.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

29 May 2013
01:18:09pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Another thought, I have a page or two of the counterfeits produced in Nigeria in the 1990s to carry the ubiquitous "Nigerian Prince Scam" letters. I think I have about twenty different examples of the stone bridge (Walk-across) mounted in an "Interesting Curiosities", album.
All came from large bulk kilo lots of world wide used stamps. Some are so crude that it defies imagination that they could pass though the mails.
Then around the turn of the century the scammers in Nigeria began to use e-mails which were even cheaper than photocopied sheetlets of stamps.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Logistical1
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30 May 2013
10:07:10pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Since the stamp is not post marked it could have been added to the cover at any time since 1949. Perhaps it was intended to fool an unsuspecting collector.

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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer

31 May 2013
08:17:26am
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I think it was there all along other wise why did it arrive " Postage Due". You know this hobby is killing me- everyday I find something new or another curious aspect to focus on.

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Bobstamp
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30 Jun 2014
01:46:04pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

In the early 1950s, my dad became manager and then owner of an office supply store in Silver City, New Mexico. The store was in an area, near the courthouse, where there were several law offices. Dad did a good business in making photocopies for the lawyers, at a dollar a piece, but his "photocopier" was a primitive gizmo that essentially created a low-resolution contact image on sensitized paper.

First, the document to be copied was sandwiched with a piece of the sensitized paper and passed through a small machine with rollers that exposed it to bright light. Then the now-exposed paper was passed through another machine, with rollers, through a bath of developer and then through other rollers that squeezed the excess developer from the copy. The final step was hanging up the copy with a clothes pin to dry. A true photocopier, but grey-scale only, and not exactly fast and efficient!

Bob

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drmicro68
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30 Jun 2014
11:00:11pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I remember those copiers! And I haven't had one explained that clearly in decades (certainly not by me!). Oy, am I THAT old?

Roger Laughing

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malcolm197

30 Dec 2014
01:54:37pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

The blue line around the stamp normally means invalid ( and that the stamp should not be franked) -in this case a fake,but could also mean out of time, or wrong countries stamp. I think the T (taxe) mark would have been applied in India to indicate that the surcharge should be collected at point of receipt- and the red collection instruction was applied in the US. At the time this cover was sent very few countries returned mail to sender for correct postage to be applied, as is quite common today - The Vienna convention on poatage due applied.

Malcolm

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Rhinelander
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30 Dec 2014
02:59:01pm
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

The pre-printed envelope suggests that it may have stated "no postage required, paid by recipient" in the top corner; a service at least today only available domestically. Assuming my conjecture is correct, I suppose the sender glued a fake Ghandi postage stamp/cinderella/whatever-it-is on the envelope, assuming that the recipient would pay for the postage. So, I don't think the sender's intent was to defraud the postal service with a crude fake, but simply to "decorate" the envelope.

Arno


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malcolm197

14 Jan 2015
10:09:58am
re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Rhinelander

I have to disagree, I am afraid. The envelope does not have the appearence of a postal stationery prepaid envelope. The printed envelope was either sent by the recipient in order to ensure that the correct return address was used (unlikely ) or printed by the sender in quantity if regular correspondence was undertaken. It appears to be a fairly crude printing effort - certainly not of the quality one would expect from an official post office issue. I would think that it was printed onto a normal envelope - it almost appears like a large rubber stamp - although I am sure it is not. Note that there is no stock no. or printers imprint.

Malcolm

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Author/Postings

To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
26 May 2013
09:11:09pm

Strange piece of postal history here. The stamp is fake -looks photo copied to me, but how would it get all the way to New York. Are the Indian Post office's that bad?? Any thoughts or comments.....does it have any value??
Image Not Found

Like
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
26 May 2013
09:12:01pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Here's a detail of the stamp.. obviously fake
Image Not Found

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michael78651

26 May 2013
11:31:51pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

It's amazing how some of the mail pieces get through the mails. It is considered an illegal franking, and there are people who collect such mail pieces. How much is it worth? Depends on how much someone wants to pay for it.

Like
Login to Like
this post

To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
26 May 2013
11:36:41pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Michael,
Thanks for the input. I was wondering the Gandhi stamp is quite pricey now perhaps a real one was removed a the fake replaced it as it is not tied to the cover by a post mark.
Still a strange little puzzle

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michael78651

27 May 2013
01:48:02am

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Don't know. Whoever did it, also drew a blue line all around the stamp, or was it a postal clerk from India who did that?

I just now took a good look at the cover. There are two things that tell me that the illegal use was caught, and that adds to the intrigue of the cover. The hand stamp "T" generally means postage due. That would have been applied by India or perhaps another country that handled the cover before it got to the US. The US dfoesn't mark covers postage due with a "T" hand stamp. You will also see that there is a postage due hand stamp from the US post office in New York where the cover was probably received into the US.

Interesting piece for sure.

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jillcrow

27 May 2013
01:52:10am

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I don't think there were too many colour photocopiers around in 1949. It looks more like a picture cut out from something, like a magazine. The 10 rupee Gandhi stamp is the valuable one in the set.

Like
Login to Like
this post

The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
27 May 2013
09:17:07pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

If it were mine, Ross, it would be a "keeper"and displayed in my album of curios.

John Derry

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"Much happiness is overlooked because it doesn't cost anything. "

parklanemews@gmail.c ...

To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
27 May 2013
09:23:00pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

John,
It is a keeper.. It found it's place of honor earlier today.
jillcrow,
I'm a little slow when it comes to the history of copier's , so I looked it up-1938
but I think your correct it's a picture not a copy.

"A patent attorney in New York named Chester Carlson developed the technique to place photoelectric images on paper in 1938. He placed sulfur on a zinc plate and charged it using static electricity. He then took an image written in Inida ink on a microscope slide and placed it on the charged plate. Exposing the area to an incandescent light, he removed the slide and placed lycopodium on the surface and then gently removed the powder in order to transfer the image to a piece of wax paper. This created the first photocopy."

Read more: History of the Copy Machine | eHow http://www.ehow.com/about_4605136_history-copy-machine.html#ixzz2UXvNsTDb"


(Modified by Moderator on 2013-05-27 22:22:47)

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 May 2013
01:10:05pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Well, Ross, copying may have been invented in 1938 but I am reasonably sure that such a complicated procedure was beyond the ability of the average producer if fraudulent postage any where in general and certainly not something that could be done in India.

In a similar vein, TV was invented in 1927 but didn't become readily available to the general public until about 1949-1950.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 May 2013
01:18:09pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Another thought, I have a page or two of the counterfeits produced in Nigeria in the 1990s to carry the ubiquitous "Nigerian Prince Scam" letters. I think I have about twenty different examples of the stone bridge (Walk-across) mounted in an "Interesting Curiosities", album.
All came from large bulk kilo lots of world wide used stamps. Some are so crude that it defies imagination that they could pass though the mails.
Then around the turn of the century the scammers in Nigeria began to use e-mails which were even cheaper than photocopied sheetlets of stamps.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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Logistical1

30 May 2013
10:07:10pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Since the stamp is not post marked it could have been added to the cover at any time since 1949. Perhaps it was intended to fool an unsuspecting collector.

Like
Login to Like
this post

To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
31 May 2013
08:17:26am

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I think it was there all along other wise why did it arrive " Postage Due". You know this hobby is killing me- everyday I find something new or another curious aspect to focus on.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Bobstamp

30 Jun 2014
01:46:04pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

In the early 1950s, my dad became manager and then owner of an office supply store in Silver City, New Mexico. The store was in an area, near the courthouse, where there were several law offices. Dad did a good business in making photocopies for the lawyers, at a dollar a piece, but his "photocopier" was a primitive gizmo that essentially created a low-resolution contact image on sensitized paper.

First, the document to be copied was sandwiched with a piece of the sensitized paper and passed through a small machine with rollers that exposed it to bright light. Then the now-exposed paper was passed through another machine, with rollers, through a bath of developer and then through other rollers that squeezed the excess developer from the copy. The final step was hanging up the copy with a clothes pin to dry. A true photocopier, but grey-scale only, and not exactly fast and efficient!

Bob

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drmicro68

30 Jun 2014
11:00:11pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

I remember those copiers! And I haven't had one explained that clearly in decades (certainly not by me!). Oy, am I THAT old?

Roger Laughing

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malcolm197

30 Dec 2014
01:54:37pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

The blue line around the stamp normally means invalid ( and that the stamp should not be franked) -in this case a fake,but could also mean out of time, or wrong countries stamp. I think the T (taxe) mark would have been applied in India to indicate that the surcharge should be collected at point of receipt- and the red collection instruction was applied in the US. At the time this cover was sent very few countries returned mail to sender for correct postage to be applied, as is quite common today - The Vienna convention on poatage due applied.

Malcolm

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Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
30 Dec 2014
02:59:01pm

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

The pre-printed envelope suggests that it may have stated "no postage required, paid by recipient" in the top corner; a service at least today only available domestically. Assuming my conjecture is correct, I suppose the sender glued a fake Ghandi postage stamp/cinderella/whatever-it-is on the envelope, assuming that the recipient would pay for the postage. So, I don't think the sender's intent was to defraud the postal service with a crude fake, but simply to "decorate" the envelope.

Arno


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malcolm197

14 Jan 2015
10:09:58am

re: India Cover Calcutta to L.A. with Fake photocopied Gandhi Stamp Recieved with postage Due of $0.17 @N.Y

Rhinelander

I have to disagree, I am afraid. The envelope does not have the appearence of a postal stationery prepaid envelope. The printed envelope was either sent by the recipient in order to ensure that the correct return address was used (unlikely ) or printed by the sender in quantity if regular correspondence was undertaken. It appears to be a fairly crude printing effort - certainly not of the quality one would expect from an official post office issue. I would think that it was printed onto a normal envelope - it almost appears like a large rubber stamp - although I am sure it is not. Note that there is no stock no. or printers imprint.

Malcolm

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