Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Many counterfeit stamps are now issued in countries with a long tradition of counterfeiting, and with good skills and equipment to produce them massively. (Think China...but before Switzerland, Italy, UK, France...)
Ebay does nothing significant to hamper the trade. Reporting to ebay is a waste of time and effort. Telling the seller seldom yield any results (just have an example from last week)
You seldom have any recourse on the Internet. Dealers often show the picture of a legitimate stamp, then ship the counterfeit. They shift listings to other companies, countries etc...it is a big Mafia enterprise out there, which given the profit margins is not surprising...
The problem is NOT being publicized enough by legitimate dealers for fear of scaring away business.
Some dealers have on going businesses producing fake o/p on legitimate stamps (and issuing confusing wording: "Genuine stamp. The o/p may not be guaranteed)
There was a period where reputable dealers were caught issuing massive quantities of professionally printed fakes, and mixing them (bait and switch) with legitimate samples. (one that come to mind was associated with Stanley Gibbons..I have a reference article somewhere). Not too long ago a big scandal hit Portugal...etc..etc..
Do you think that EVERY counterfeit stamp identified as such should be marked in the back with indelible ink? What can YOU do to try to rectify this rapidly degrading situation?
rrr
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Here is a reference article dating 10 years that got me interested!
http://www.pwmo.org/articles/rough-trade.htm
rrr...
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 23:41:16)
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And this is a handy reference, but I am sure there are many others...and may I suggest we add these references to counterfeits to our SOR ressources.
rrr...
http://www.scads.org/reference/reference.htm
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 23:40:09)
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A most interesting topic RR. There are those who collect counterfeits, and there are some really beautiful bogus copies around on my personal area of interest (U.S.Classics). The problem comes in when the bogus copies are attempted to be passed off as real. EBay has a policy (or at least they used to) to require such copies to be labelled on the back as facsimile/copy/fake in indelible ink to avoid that practice.
The overprints on U.S. stamps are very prone to that kind of fooling.Many of the Nebr. Kans. overprints are known to be of this type, along with the Shanghai overprints and the RF overprints on airmails. Perhaps the only real recourse one has is to be hyper alert, deal only with those you can trust, pay with Paypal so that if there is a question you have some recourse.
I have found that being willing to make purchases with the prior understanding that if the item doesn't pass when expertized, that the deal is reversed. In the many years that I have been collecting, less than a handful of returns were needed. On a few occasions I had to go as far as opening a case file with Paypal to get the dealers attention, but eventually all worked out well.
I suspect that the problem with the foreign worldwide stamps would be replete with possible issues about fraud, even to a much higher degree than in The U.S.
Dan C.
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Counterfeits: here is my latest issue with an ebay listing. I did communicate with the seller, but have been ignored (so far). Also reported it to ebay. (also ignored)
Obvious fake: for the following reasons.
Original paper is Yellowish (this is white)
Print registration is lousy (original are well defined)
Lots of printing splattered ink (what a mess!)
Conclusion: a really shabby job!
Note: Less than 500 sheets were reported as produced.
Experts from the Lebanon Stamp Group all state it is a fake!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200952758962?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
Lebanon C111-14 MH Imperf Arab Postal Congress Souvenir Sheet from 1946 $325.00
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-13 17:40:43)
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rrr,
Ebay has become the "goto' place for many a criminal enterprise -they can sell there items without recourse or repercussion- counterfeits are rampant in every category not just stamps . Paying with Paypal gives you some measure of security but not much. I have limited my purchase's to just 2 sellers http://myworld.ebay.com/drbobstamps/ and http://myworld.ebay.com/victoire1/ I am sure there are other honorable sellers on ebay I just have not done business with them
I have the utmost confidence in these sellers- Dr. Bob is Dr.Robert Friedman and his store is just up the road from me. I say this in response to your question-only make ebay purchase's from the sellers you trust.
As for the masses of counterfeits they should be marked on the reverse but this will never happen. As for sellers of fakes, counterfeits, altered and forged stamps I do believe that if enough people report the item-items to ebay the greater the chance that ebay will remove the item or suspend the seller. I have seen this on many different occasions. If you frequent the Stampboards site you will see that many of there users have helped to rid ebay and other site's of fraudulent items and sellers.
Edit:-My stamp purchases are from these 2 sellers. I have purchased some fishing items from others.
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Counterfeit stamps are not a problem or concern at my level of stamp collecting (enjoyment level).
I have some illegitimate postage stamps in my collection which I obtained knowingly. I am certain
to have others ("known unknowns", if I may borrow the phrase).
I have copies of artwork because the originals are not for sale or beyond my financial means, same
with stamps.
Counterfeits exist because they are profitable. I theorize that stamp buyers pursuing the stamps that
are likely to be counterfeited likely have the smarts, as has member "rraphy", to protect themselves.
I regret being unsupportive, but do not believe the "counterfeit postage stamp situation" could
degenerate to a level where I would become concerned about it, victim-wise or otherwise.
John Derry
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Hi all
This is a set of replica stamps I have ,no way in the world would I be able to afford the real set $16000.00 .They are all marked on the reverse REPLICA and fill a space in my collection.Plus the fact the printer used the wrong image for all the lower values.
Brian
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09:29:17pm
Brian - those are gorgeous - I'd be proud to put those replicas in my album 
I have done the same thing for the two issues of the Nova Scotia shilling. I have a number of forgeries (and I can tell which shilling is being identified due to the colour). I'll never be able to afford a copy of either of the shilling issues so I'm happy to enjoy the forgeries. Although the difference between those types of forgeries and what is being passed as counterfeits are a whole different ballgame. Value-wise, the counterfeits have none whereas the forgeries of a $17,000 stamp can easily sell for $100+ (and the more detailed research you can do on the forger or the forged cancellation, the better). For example I have a forgery of one shilling stamp that has all the earmarks of one well-known forger, however the cancellation is that of another well-known forger re: Nova Scotia stamps. For those who collect forgeries of this stamp, that's a pretty cool thing.
Counterfeits being passed off as genuine, ugh!
Kelly
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I ride the fence on this issue. I do collect and study forgeries. However, I also have several advanced collections where the thought of paying full price for a non-legitimate stamp would make me cringe. The forgeries of the past which for the most part were actually promoted and a lot of times legally sold as space fillers are fairly easy to detect with a bit of knowledge. So, it can be a fun rabbit hunt.
But, the new tech and ability to practically make a facsimile of a high end item gets a bit scary. However, it is as has been stated. When it doubt..expert it out ! Before spending a large sum on an item I make sure it either has a current cert. or that I can check it out before final sale.
I am not a big fan of marking the forgery on the back for some reason. Not sure why as that would help, just seems wrong.. I really don't care for the european way of expert signature on back as a cert. either.
Forgeries have been a risk of the hobby for a long time. It really comes down to the bigger the risk the bigger the investment to make sure it is genuine. Inexpensive stamps are really not that big of deal just good to know the difference.
My 2 cents,
Jere
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Ralph,
What to do about counterfeits? The discussion has wandered a bit and now is more about if one should include reproductions in their collections as space fillers, or not. I don't do it and rather have an honest empty spot. While everybody may do as they please, it was of course the desire of early collectors to fill their albums with reproductions by Fournier, Spiro, and others that account for much of the abundant classic forgeries that now so plague us. So, I don't include fakes personally, and from a high level perspective I wish nobody would have ever done it, because it is this demand that drove/drives the market for reproductions sold as reproductions. And while YOU know that it is a fake, the stamp will get passed on. With reproductions marked as reproductions (shown by Brian above) no such concern exists.
But back to the original point of forgeries in the philatelic market passed as genuine. I agree with all you say and wish more could be done. It is a complete fallacy that only expensive stamps are prone to forgeries. Much to the opposite, the most obnoxious fakes are of low- and mid-price items where buyers don't expect fakes or don't insist on certification for economical reasons.
I have had good success, actually, notifying sellers on ebay about fakes being offered. Ebay never did anything, but the sellers responded. Honest folks that did not know better and perhaps even got fooled themselves at some time. However, these were usually classic forgeries, which are documented in the literature, and so there can be no discussion as to if it is real or not. I disagree with Jere a little as to "fairly easy to detect" -- this may be true for some of the classic forgeries. On average, I really do not find it that easy. I am talking about me personally, and I am definitely hitting the limit of my knowledge and expertise. Especially forged overprints can be a real challenge. There is a lot of truth in the saying that the more you know, the more you know you don't know. The more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to know.
As for the modern forgeries: Many of these are quite poor, because the modern forger does not have access to the inks, papers, and gum used in the past, and most importantly lacks the sophistication. Instead, the modern forger owns a laser printer.
The s/s starting the discussion is a prime candidate for unsophisticated forgeries. There is no watermark and no perforation, thus two primary characteristics often enabling easy detection are missing in the original. The offer says the s/s is "MH," but if issued no gum, yet another prime characteristic would be missing. SO, once you determine that the item makes a good candidate for a fake, and you have never seen an original, you probably should not buy unless with a right to return and from a reputable seller etc. I am not expressing an opinion if it is real or not. Just pointing out that "even a caveman" can operate a copy machine.
Arno
P.S. Compare with this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/LEBANON-LIBANON-LIBAN-1946-Arab-Postal-Congress-S-S-Michel-Block-9-MNH-RARE-/171132318916?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d847f4c4 Note that print is not shining through on back compared to the other, but mark "RB" is very dubious. Wouldn't touch this one either.
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there is a fourth option. Buy it and return it as fake.
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Dear All,
Shining a spotlight upon the issue is all well & good,but is it enough? Ought we to think about doing things that might go beyond the self-protective aspect? Would starting a petition about it to be presented to the APS be a possible political activity that we ought to consider? Perhaps as a club to notify eBay of our concerns and to demand that they institute policies to deal with the concerns, and police those policies vigorously? Would banding together to form a 'truth squad' of those interested in the issues and make the combined expertise available to our club members as a whole be of any value?
In short, should we as a club try to improve our hobby as a whole by putting in efforts to effect change? (As I write these thoughts I hear echoes of "Shut up and sit down". Fair enough-you be the judge.)
Respectfully submitted,
Dan C.
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This discussion is morphing into another one of those auto-da-fé crusades
to prevent me from collecting the postage stamps that I want to collect, and
to dictate my conduct as a stamp collector.
Counterfeit stamps are not a problem for me and I refuse to accept it as a
problem. Talk about the road to hell being paved with good intentions...
John Derry
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I agree, counterfeits and fakes are a problem.
It is ok to sell these fakes and forgeries, provided they are described as such.
I can offer as a 'suggestion only', that you try the Internet Philatelic Dealer's Association. They are also an affiliate of the American Philatelic Society and one of the main reasons this organization was created was exactly for what is being stated in this thread. They are trying to rid the internet of dodgy dealers etc.
You can go into their home page at http://www.ipdastamps.org/
Who knows, it might be worth a try?
Chimo
Bujutsu
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 17:57:24)
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I am also concerned about counterfeits. For me the real problem is the mid-range stuff. There is a #356 (CV $3250) coil selling on eBay right now WITHOUT a cert with bids in the hundreds. Anybody that would bid on that gets what they deserve. I know how to protect myself from the high-end fakes. But what about the Kansas/Nebraska overprints? The low values CV for less than $3 each mint. Most of the Certs would cost me more than the stamps! I would like to know that they are legit, but I would like to be able to self-screen a bit myself first. It would be really nice if there was a counterfeit "do-it-yourself" class at a major stamp show where folks could bring the items they are unsure of and learn how to check for problems. I would certainly sign up for that session!
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Notice Stamporama Cat on the table? She is sniffing out counterfeits.
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Dear Kelly,
Nice touch to combine the discussions. Very helpful
Dear Larsdog,
Good suggestion about the need for a do-it yourself primer on counterfeits. I wonder if with our combined talents in our membership we might be able to put together something along those lines to help our crew navigate the waters? Just thinking out loud so far.
Dan C.
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Re: Arno
P.S. Compare with this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/LEBANON-LIBANON-LIBAN-1946-Arab-Postal-Congress-S-S-Michel-Block-9-MNH-RARE-/171132318916?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d847f4c4 Note that print is not shining through on back compared to the other, but mark "RB" is very dubious. Wouldn't touch this one either.
Definitely a counterfeit.
Now the big question is not why expensive stamps are counterfeited, but why would anyone take the trouble to produce penny stamp counterfeits?
Attached is an example:
Top two are counterfeits.
I suspect that some enterprising business/politician produced them to be sold by post office clerks, splitting the proceeds. Cannot imagine how else this would be worth producing! Any other ideas? These are less than a US cent face value!
But is this any better than King Farouk of Egypt having purposely produced error sheets manufactured for his royal collection in Egypt, and also some made explicitly for him in visiting countries as a welcoming gifts on his royal official visits! If you ask me, it beats the rolex watches or exotic animals that some others collect! 
rrr
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For those wondering...here is a (reportedly) real SS to illustrate the discussion. Note the yellow paper base (scanned on top of a white page for contrast. Also, Hi resolution printing....but???????????????
rrr...
Come to think of it...even this one worries me!
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One thing I do with counterfeits I accumulate from box lots that I purchase is put them in a glassine and send them to the APS to be put into the APS reference collection.
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That US 356 without a cert sold for $572!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/usa-356-10c-Wash-yellow-coil-perf-12-unused-1908-10-cat-3000-us-/301010432808?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=HS79m%252Fg4szcLImJ0CwbxNIQgA8U%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Really amazing. 356 is $3250 MH, $4500 used, and $7000 MNH. (Obviously used has to have a contemporaneous cancel with those prices). In Scott Specialized, in bold letters, below the listing for 356 is this: "Beware of stamps offered as No. 356 which may be examples of No. 338 with perfs trimmed at top and/or bottom." Since 338 is a flat plate issue, there are plenty of margin singles with a natural straight edge. If you can find one with a natural straight edge at top or bottom it is a simple matter to "manufacture" a 356. Remember, 356 was made by pasting sheets of 338 together and running them through the coil making machines at BEP. They even have the same perforation.
How much is 338? $67.50 mint. $160 MNH. (I'm using 2011 prices). Kinda risky to destroy one of those to fake a 356. What about used? Only $2 each!!! And natural straight edges are typically undesirable. The stamp in this auction is clearly used with a cleaned cancel (and not a very good job, at that). So why didn't he list it as used ($4500) instead of mint ($3250)? Maybe he knew used 356 stamps get more scrutiny. Maybe he was feeling "generous."
Lars
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Lars, your analysis seems on target. As speculation, perhaps the buyer was relying on the reputation of the seller to make good any problem. As for the seller, perhaps he was/is unaware? All that being said, most interesting and emphasizing the need for the buyer to be aware and for expertizing.
Dan C.
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As I try to understand the term 'Counterfeit' in your American Terminology, do I take it that those lovely Reproductions (Replicas in Australian!) shown by Snowy are NOT included in that category ?
Or just to confuse things, are they ? 
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Following on from my earlier post, I guess they can be both Counterfeit (US) and Replicas (AUS). 
Let's say that there were no underprints......
If Snowy, or anyone else, bought them from a dealer/seller who advertised them as Reproductions/Replicas/Whatever then they could not be classed as counterfeits.
But if Snowy, or anyone else, then passed them on as the real thing to some unsuspecting buyer who later found out they were not real...he could say he had been sold counterfeits (and wants his money back !!].
Just a thought.
Londonbus1
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I really hate to raise this point, but wouldn't a 'fake' be a kind of counterfeit? There are many legitimate stamps with a fake overprint or fake grill.The stamp is genuine, the additions are not. If sold as something the stamp itself was not, that would be deceptive and fraudulent. But how about the disclaimer by the seller using the following ploy
68?,88?,79? grill? Note that no claim is made as to stamp identification, and the grill is questioned as well.This is a case of buyer beware of course, but is it considered a counterfeit as we are using the term?
Dan C.
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no, Dan, a fake isn't necessarily a counterfeit. a counterfeit is intended to defraud the government; a fake is an attempt to defraud a collector by either creating a stamp or altering one.
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Thanks David, that clears it up nicely for me.
Dan C.
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Trying to better understand and deal with the italicized entries in Scott's. A dozen or so of the Helvetia issues of 1862-1881 have italicized entries for used, with my current focus being Switzerland 68, the 1F gold on granite paper. 2012 SCV is $21.50 unused and $1,300 used, so this one seems ripe for forged cancellations.
There are plenty of used copies for sale on eBay and one on Stamps 2 Go. Prices are generally in the $100 range, although there is one Buy-it-Now for about $20, and one up for auction with a current high bid of about $2.
One guy selling SC#'s 50, 67, and 68 used for $100 states: "The granite paper 1Fr (#68) is sound but we are not certain about the cancel. Interesting lot. 2016 Scott if genuine cancels is $2,050."
Seems that if someone believes the cancel to be genuine, the cost of expertization is well worth it. On the other hand, a price at 5% or 10% of CV with the uncertainty of "we don't know" seems to aim for someone hoping for a lucky strike, or doesn't mind the ambiguity.
My question is, how should a probably fake cancel be valued? Same as unused? Less than unused because it is now flawed? Anything higher than unused doesn't seem to make sense.
And then there is this gem in which the seller is trying to pass of an unused stamp with an "obsolete" overprint as used, for "only" $750:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NobleSpirit-Excellent-SWITZERLAND-No-68-Used-1-000-CV-/371415698274
Catalog doesn't say, but that one should probably be less than unused, right?
Just another interesting day in Philatelyland!
-Steve
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I think that care needs to be taken with some of the sweeping generalizations and the terminology being used.
In many areas, contemporary counterfits are legitimate collectibles unto themselves. As previously mentioned, "counterfeits" were created to defraud the government, whereas fakes intended to deceive philatelists are usually called "forgeries".
In my area, U.S. revenues, genuine counterfeits are very much in demand and usually are worth far more than the real stamps they purport to be.
They are a far cry from philatelic forgeries, let alone the modern replicas that proliferate on eBay.
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fakes and counterfeits are highly collectable - and, prices are often higher than genuine.
machin fakes number about 50 ...
they actually served as preview to genuine in developing years of philately. the old catalogs were more thorough than gibbons ...
there is also a class I call album art - facsimiles by album makers
see kobans.blogspot.ca
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ww1 and ww2 spawned a horde of propaganda forgeries ...
https://www.psywar.org/articles#wwii
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The issue in general is troubling to me.
For example, there is a dealer on eBay who has sold a large number of what he has termed collector envelopes.
Basicaly, he runs an envelope through an ink jet printer for an image of some historical importance, places a reproduction of a US stamp and a reproduced cancel on it with vintage date, a presumably phony address and voila. He has sold many many of these "collector envelopes."
What is also troubling to me, and perhaps more so than the above is now I have seen that that dealer is selling genuine 19th Century covers with an ink jet image of say a quack medicine or gun dealer (both can be very expensive if original) etc. upon the envelope via that pass through the ink jet. He brags how modern technology makes it appear that the ink jet image seems to be beneath the actual ancient handwriting on the original image. He also brags to potential collectors or future scammers for that matter that there is no marking on the envelope to indicate that these are faked. eBay does nothing.
He seems to thrive with many sales of this garbage.
Personally, I think Sister Mary Immaculata should secure him in public stocks and burn his entire inventory of so-called collector envelopes but I suppose my Catholic angst is showing.
Bruce
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Bruce, my heart rate quickened a bit upon reading "Sister Mary Immaculata." She may not have been much taller than I was, but boy could she intimidate!
Am in complete agreement with you on the "collector envelopes." At a minimum, any collectible reproduction should have a marking to that effect. An example would be some of the CSA facsimiles that state as much on the reverse.
-Steve
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Bruce,
Is there any chance you could post an image, or a link to these 'collector envelopes'?
EDIT:
Just seen ikeyPikey's relevant post here: First Day Covers
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Hi Everyone;
Could someone fix this page so I and others can read it without going into the living room and back
and forth just to read it?
By the time you get to the end of a line, you forget where you were. I'm getting a headache from this junk.
Just trying to enjoy....
TuskenRaider
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It's caused by the link on Geostamper's post just a few up from the bottom.
@Geostamper
Just remove all the crud after and including the question mark, as follows:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NobleSpirit-Excellent-SWITZERLAND-No-68-Used-1-000-CV-/371415698274
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Problem should be fixed. Long URL...
Which makes me wonder, URLs don't wrap?
-Steve
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That's worked, but now it's the one in Rhinelander's post.... or maybe it's Larsdog's.
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Ningpo:
Here is an example of one of his, in my opinion, rip-offs.
Note the clever wording and this:
"The back of the envelope is blank. There are no marks on the envelope suggesting that it is a reproduction. The envelope is sure to be a conversation piece and will look great framed in your home, office or business. Frame not included."
There are no marks on the envelope he writes to suggest it is a reproduction.
What bleeping gall.
Bruce
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-Stanley-Planes-Marilyn-Monroe-Featured-on-Collectors-Envelope-X538-/302147737615?hash=item465968980f:g:phMAAOSwZ8ZW-ZU
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I see what you mean. As you rightly suggest, these are ripe for future scammers. I cannot think of any legitimate reason for producing these. And it appears these are being sold by the bucket load: over 16,000 feedback score.
There are a lot of other worrying 'facsimiles' including autographs. What about the used stamps? Could the postmarks be fake as well?
This also caught my eye:
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When I last saw this joker's covers, he was just doing one offs of fake ad covers on real postmarked old covers.
Now it looks like he's printing fake cancels as well. Note that his signature 4 short bar cancel is the same in San Diego as it is in Daytona... and the Petty ones are dated 1966! eBay may not be doing anything, but isn't it illegal to fake postmarks? Maybe a tip to the postal inspectors is in order?
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The "cover" to the Smithsonian looks like someone took great care to only singe the edges.
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I agree with Dan suggestion but I very much doubt that ebay will do anything about it, pretty much like paypal doesn't do anything about sellers that pass on the fees to buyers, when they're not supposed to. Let's face it when ebay says caveat emptor they mean it! so if you're going to drop big bucks for a stamp, any stamp, be ready to enjoy it or have a permanent headache.
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I think the problem is getting worse...much worse.
Many counterfeit stamps are now issued in countries with a long tradition of counterfeiting, and with good skills and equipment to produce them massively. (Think China...but before Switzerland, Italy, UK, France...)
Ebay does nothing significant to hamper the trade. Reporting to ebay is a waste of time and effort. Telling the seller seldom yield any results (just have an example from last week)
You seldom have any recourse on the Internet. Dealers often show the picture of a legitimate stamp, then ship the counterfeit. They shift listings to other companies, countries etc...it is a big Mafia enterprise out there, which given the profit margins is not surprising...
The problem is NOT being publicized enough by legitimate dealers for fear of scaring away business.
Some dealers have on going businesses producing fake o/p on legitimate stamps (and issuing confusing wording: "Genuine stamp. The o/p may not be guaranteed)
There was a period where reputable dealers were caught issuing massive quantities of professionally printed fakes, and mixing them (bait and switch) with legitimate samples. (one that come to mind was associated with Stanley Gibbons..I have a reference article somewhere). Not too long ago a big scandal hit Portugal...etc..etc..
Do you think that EVERY counterfeit stamp identified as such should be marked in the back with indelible ink? What can YOU do to try to rectify this rapidly degrading situation?
rrr
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Here is a reference article dating 10 years that got me interested!
http://www.pwmo.org/articles/rough-trade.htm
rrr...
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 23:41:16)
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
And this is a handy reference, but I am sure there are many others...and may I suggest we add these references to counterfeits to our SOR ressources.
rrr...
http://www.scads.org/reference/reference.htm
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 23:40:09)
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
A most interesting topic RR. There are those who collect counterfeits, and there are some really beautiful bogus copies around on my personal area of interest (U.S.Classics). The problem comes in when the bogus copies are attempted to be passed off as real. EBay has a policy (or at least they used to) to require such copies to be labelled on the back as facsimile/copy/fake in indelible ink to avoid that practice.
The overprints on U.S. stamps are very prone to that kind of fooling.Many of the Nebr. Kans. overprints are known to be of this type, along with the Shanghai overprints and the RF overprints on airmails. Perhaps the only real recourse one has is to be hyper alert, deal only with those you can trust, pay with Paypal so that if there is a question you have some recourse.
I have found that being willing to make purchases with the prior understanding that if the item doesn't pass when expertized, that the deal is reversed. In the many years that I have been collecting, less than a handful of returns were needed. On a few occasions I had to go as far as opening a case file with Paypal to get the dealers attention, but eventually all worked out well.
I suspect that the problem with the foreign worldwide stamps would be replete with possible issues about fraud, even to a much higher degree than in The U.S.
Dan C.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Counterfeits: here is my latest issue with an ebay listing. I did communicate with the seller, but have been ignored (so far). Also reported it to ebay. (also ignored)
Obvious fake: for the following reasons.
Original paper is Yellowish (this is white)
Print registration is lousy (original are well defined)
Lots of printing splattered ink (what a mess!)
Conclusion: a really shabby job!
Note: Less than 500 sheets were reported as produced.
Experts from the Lebanon Stamp Group all state it is a fake!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200952758962?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
Lebanon C111-14 MH Imperf Arab Postal Congress Souvenir Sheet from 1946 $325.00
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-13 17:40:43)
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
13 Nov 2013
03:31:19pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
rrr,
Ebay has become the "goto' place for many a criminal enterprise -they can sell there items without recourse or repercussion- counterfeits are rampant in every category not just stamps . Paying with Paypal gives you some measure of security but not much. I have limited my purchase's to just 2 sellers http://myworld.ebay.com/drbobstamps/ and http://myworld.ebay.com/victoire1/ I am sure there are other honorable sellers on ebay I just have not done business with them
I have the utmost confidence in these sellers- Dr. Bob is Dr.Robert Friedman and his store is just up the road from me. I say this in response to your question-only make ebay purchase's from the sellers you trust.
As for the masses of counterfeits they should be marked on the reverse but this will never happen. As for sellers of fakes, counterfeits, altered and forged stamps I do believe that if enough people report the item-items to ebay the greater the chance that ebay will remove the item or suspend the seller. I have seen this on many different occasions. If you frequent the Stampboards site you will see that many of there users have helped to rid ebay and other site's of fraudulent items and sellers.
Edit:-My stamp purchases are from these 2 sellers. I have purchased some fishing items from others.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
13 Nov 2013
06:12:11pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Counterfeit stamps are not a problem or concern at my level of stamp collecting (enjoyment level).
I have some illegitimate postage stamps in my collection which I obtained knowingly. I am certain
to have others ("known unknowns", if I may borrow the phrase).
I have copies of artwork because the originals are not for sale or beyond my financial means, same
with stamps.
Counterfeits exist because they are profitable. I theorize that stamp buyers pursuing the stamps that
are likely to be counterfeited likely have the smarts, as has member "rraphy", to protect themselves.
I regret being unsupportive, but do not believe the "counterfeit postage stamp situation" could
degenerate to a level where I would become concerned about it, victim-wise or otherwise.
John Derry
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Hi all
This is a set of replica stamps I have ,no way in the world would I be able to afford the real set $16000.00 .They are all marked on the reverse REPLICA and fill a space in my collection.Plus the fact the printer used the wrong image for all the lower values.
Brian
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Nov 2013
09:29:17pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Brian - those are gorgeous - I'd be proud to put those replicas in my album
I have done the same thing for the two issues of the Nova Scotia shilling. I have a number of forgeries (and I can tell which shilling is being identified due to the colour). I'll never be able to afford a copy of either of the shilling issues so I'm happy to enjoy the forgeries. Although the difference between those types of forgeries and what is being passed as counterfeits are a whole different ballgame. Value-wise, the counterfeits have none whereas the forgeries of a $17,000 stamp can easily sell for $100+ (and the more detailed research you can do on the forger or the forged cancellation, the better). For example I have a forgery of one shilling stamp that has all the earmarks of one well-known forger, however the cancellation is that of another well-known forger re: Nova Scotia stamps. For those who collect forgeries of this stamp, that's a pretty cool thing.
Counterfeits being passed off as genuine, ugh!
Kelly
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11:11:57pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I ride the fence on this issue. I do collect and study forgeries. However, I also have several advanced collections where the thought of paying full price for a non-legitimate stamp would make me cringe. The forgeries of the past which for the most part were actually promoted and a lot of times legally sold as space fillers are fairly easy to detect with a bit of knowledge. So, it can be a fun rabbit hunt.
But, the new tech and ability to practically make a facsimile of a high end item gets a bit scary. However, it is as has been stated. When it doubt..expert it out ! Before spending a large sum on an item I make sure it either has a current cert. or that I can check it out before final sale.
I am not a big fan of marking the forgery on the back for some reason. Not sure why as that would help, just seems wrong.. I really don't care for the european way of expert signature on back as a cert. either.
Forgeries have been a risk of the hobby for a long time. It really comes down to the bigger the risk the bigger the investment to make sure it is genuine. Inexpensive stamps are really not that big of deal just good to know the difference.
My 2 cents,
Jere
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Ralph,
What to do about counterfeits? The discussion has wandered a bit and now is more about if one should include reproductions in their collections as space fillers, or not. I don't do it and rather have an honest empty spot. While everybody may do as they please, it was of course the desire of early collectors to fill their albums with reproductions by Fournier, Spiro, and others that account for much of the abundant classic forgeries that now so plague us. So, I don't include fakes personally, and from a high level perspective I wish nobody would have ever done it, because it is this demand that drove/drives the market for reproductions sold as reproductions. And while YOU know that it is a fake, the stamp will get passed on. With reproductions marked as reproductions (shown by Brian above) no such concern exists.
But back to the original point of forgeries in the philatelic market passed as genuine. I agree with all you say and wish more could be done. It is a complete fallacy that only expensive stamps are prone to forgeries. Much to the opposite, the most obnoxious fakes are of low- and mid-price items where buyers don't expect fakes or don't insist on certification for economical reasons.
I have had good success, actually, notifying sellers on ebay about fakes being offered. Ebay never did anything, but the sellers responded. Honest folks that did not know better and perhaps even got fooled themselves at some time. However, these were usually classic forgeries, which are documented in the literature, and so there can be no discussion as to if it is real or not. I disagree with Jere a little as to "fairly easy to detect" -- this may be true for some of the classic forgeries. On average, I really do not find it that easy. I am talking about me personally, and I am definitely hitting the limit of my knowledge and expertise. Especially forged overprints can be a real challenge. There is a lot of truth in the saying that the more you know, the more you know you don't know. The more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to know.
As for the modern forgeries: Many of these are quite poor, because the modern forger does not have access to the inks, papers, and gum used in the past, and most importantly lacks the sophistication. Instead, the modern forger owns a laser printer.
The s/s starting the discussion is a prime candidate for unsophisticated forgeries. There is no watermark and no perforation, thus two primary characteristics often enabling easy detection are missing in the original. The offer says the s/s is "MH," but if issued no gum, yet another prime characteristic would be missing. SO, once you determine that the item makes a good candidate for a fake, and you have never seen an original, you probably should not buy unless with a right to return and from a reputable seller etc. I am not expressing an opinion if it is real or not. Just pointing out that "even a caveman" can operate a copy machine.
Arno
P.S. Compare with this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/LEBANON-LIBANON-LIBAN-1946-Arab-Postal-Congress-S-S-Michel-Block-9-MNH-RARE-/171132318916?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d847f4c4 Note that print is not shining through on back compared to the other, but mark "RB" is very dubious. Wouldn't touch this one either.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
there is a fourth option. Buy it and return it as fake.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Dear All,
Shining a spotlight upon the issue is all well & good,but is it enough? Ought we to think about doing things that might go beyond the self-protective aspect? Would starting a petition about it to be presented to the APS be a possible political activity that we ought to consider? Perhaps as a club to notify eBay of our concerns and to demand that they institute policies to deal with the concerns, and police those policies vigorously? Would banding together to form a 'truth squad' of those interested in the issues and make the combined expertise available to our club members as a whole be of any value?
In short, should we as a club try to improve our hobby as a whole by putting in efforts to effect change? (As I write these thoughts I hear echoes of "Shut up and sit down". Fair enough-you be the judge.)
Respectfully submitted,
Dan C.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
15 Nov 2013
01:51:41pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
This discussion is morphing into another one of those auto-da-fé crusades
to prevent me from collecting the postage stamps that I want to collect, and
to dictate my conduct as a stamp collector.
Counterfeit stamps are not a problem for me and I refuse to accept it as a
problem. Talk about the road to hell being paved with good intentions...
John Derry
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I agree, counterfeits and fakes are a problem.
It is ok to sell these fakes and forgeries, provided they are described as such.
I can offer as a 'suggestion only', that you try the Internet Philatelic Dealer's Association. They are also an affiliate of the American Philatelic Society and one of the main reasons this organization was created was exactly for what is being stated in this thread. They are trying to rid the internet of dodgy dealers etc.
You can go into their home page at http://www.ipdastamps.org/
Who knows, it might be worth a try?
Chimo
Bujutsu
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-11-15 17:57:24)
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I am also concerned about counterfeits. For me the real problem is the mid-range stuff. There is a #356 (CV $3250) coil selling on eBay right now WITHOUT a cert with bids in the hundreds. Anybody that would bid on that gets what they deserve. I know how to protect myself from the high-end fakes. But what about the Kansas/Nebraska overprints? The low values CV for less than $3 each mint. Most of the Certs would cost me more than the stamps! I would like to know that they are legit, but I would like to be able to self-screen a bit myself first. It would be really nice if there was a counterfeit "do-it-yourself" class at a major stamp show where folks could bring the items they are unsure of and learn how to check for problems. I would certainly sign up for that session!
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Notice Stamporama Cat on the table? She is sniffing out counterfeits.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Dear Kelly,
Nice touch to combine the discussions. Very helpful
Dear Larsdog,
Good suggestion about the need for a do-it yourself primer on counterfeits. I wonder if with our combined talents in our membership we might be able to put together something along those lines to help our crew navigate the waters? Just thinking out loud so far.
Dan C.
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Approvals
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Re: Arno
P.S. Compare with this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/LEBANON-LIBANON-LIBAN-1946-Arab-Postal-Congress-S-S-Michel-Block-9-MNH-RARE-/171132318916?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d847f4c4 Note that print is not shining through on back compared to the other, but mark "RB" is very dubious. Wouldn't touch this one either.
Definitely a counterfeit.
Now the big question is not why expensive stamps are counterfeited, but why would anyone take the trouble to produce penny stamp counterfeits?
Attached is an example:
Top two are counterfeits.
I suspect that some enterprising business/politician produced them to be sold by post office clerks, splitting the proceeds. Cannot imagine how else this would be worth producing! Any other ideas? These are less than a US cent face value!
But is this any better than King Farouk of Egypt having purposely produced error sheets manufactured for his royal collection in Egypt, and also some made explicitly for him in visiting countries as a welcoming gifts on his royal official visits! If you ask me, it beats the rolex watches or exotic animals that some others collect!
rrr
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
For those wondering...here is a (reportedly) real SS to illustrate the discussion. Note the yellow paper base (scanned on top of a white page for contrast. Also, Hi resolution printing....but???????????????
rrr...
Come to think of it...even this one worries me!
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05:56:49pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
One thing I do with counterfeits I accumulate from box lots that I purchase is put them in a glassine and send them to the APS to be put into the APS reference collection.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
That US 356 without a cert sold for $572!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/usa-356-10c-Wash-yellow-coil-perf-12-unused-1908-10-cat-3000-us-/301010432808?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=HS79m%252Fg4szcLImJ0CwbxNIQgA8U%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Really amazing. 356 is $3250 MH, $4500 used, and $7000 MNH. (Obviously used has to have a contemporaneous cancel with those prices). In Scott Specialized, in bold letters, below the listing for 356 is this: "Beware of stamps offered as No. 356 which may be examples of No. 338 with perfs trimmed at top and/or bottom." Since 338 is a flat plate issue, there are plenty of margin singles with a natural straight edge. If you can find one with a natural straight edge at top or bottom it is a simple matter to "manufacture" a 356. Remember, 356 was made by pasting sheets of 338 together and running them through the coil making machines at BEP. They even have the same perforation.
How much is 338? $67.50 mint. $160 MNH. (I'm using 2011 prices). Kinda risky to destroy one of those to fake a 356. What about used? Only $2 each!!! And natural straight edges are typically undesirable. The stamp in this auction is clearly used with a cleaned cancel (and not a very good job, at that). So why didn't he list it as used ($4500) instead of mint ($3250)? Maybe he knew used 356 stamps get more scrutiny. Maybe he was feeling "generous."
Lars
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Lars, your analysis seems on target. As speculation, perhaps the buyer was relying on the reputation of the seller to make good any problem. As for the seller, perhaps he was/is unaware? All that being said, most interesting and emphasizing the need for the buyer to be aware and for expertizing.
Dan C.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
As I try to understand the term 'Counterfeit' in your American Terminology, do I take it that those lovely Reproductions (Replicas in Australian!) shown by Snowy are NOT included in that category ?
Or just to confuse things, are they ?
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Following on from my earlier post, I guess they can be both Counterfeit (US) and Replicas (AUS).
Let's say that there were no underprints......
If Snowy, or anyone else, bought them from a dealer/seller who advertised them as Reproductions/Replicas/Whatever then they could not be classed as counterfeits.
But if Snowy, or anyone else, then passed them on as the real thing to some unsuspecting buyer who later found out they were not real...he could say he had been sold counterfeits (and wants his money back !!].
Just a thought.
Londonbus1
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I really hate to raise this point, but wouldn't a 'fake' be a kind of counterfeit? There are many legitimate stamps with a fake overprint or fake grill.The stamp is genuine, the additions are not. If sold as something the stamp itself was not, that would be deceptive and fraudulent. But how about the disclaimer by the seller using the following ploy
68?,88?,79? grill? Note that no claim is made as to stamp identification, and the grill is questioned as well.This is a case of buyer beware of course, but is it considered a counterfeit as we are using the term?
Dan C.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
no, Dan, a fake isn't necessarily a counterfeit. a counterfeit is intended to defraud the government; a fake is an attempt to defraud a collector by either creating a stamp or altering one.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Thanks David, that clears it up nicely for me.
Dan C.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Trying to better understand and deal with the italicized entries in Scott's. A dozen or so of the Helvetia issues of 1862-1881 have italicized entries for used, with my current focus being Switzerland 68, the 1F gold on granite paper. 2012 SCV is $21.50 unused and $1,300 used, so this one seems ripe for forged cancellations.
There are plenty of used copies for sale on eBay and one on Stamps 2 Go. Prices are generally in the $100 range, although there is one Buy-it-Now for about $20, and one up for auction with a current high bid of about $2.
One guy selling SC#'s 50, 67, and 68 used for $100 states: "The granite paper 1Fr (#68) is sound but we are not certain about the cancel. Interesting lot. 2016 Scott if genuine cancels is $2,050."
Seems that if someone believes the cancel to be genuine, the cost of expertization is well worth it. On the other hand, a price at 5% or 10% of CV with the uncertainty of "we don't know" seems to aim for someone hoping for a lucky strike, or doesn't mind the ambiguity.
My question is, how should a probably fake cancel be valued? Same as unused? Less than unused because it is now flawed? Anything higher than unused doesn't seem to make sense.
And then there is this gem in which the seller is trying to pass of an unused stamp with an "obsolete" overprint as used, for "only" $750:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NobleSpirit-Excellent-SWITZERLAND-No-68-Used-1-000-CV-/371415698274
Catalog doesn't say, but that one should probably be less than unused, right?
Just another interesting day in Philatelyland!
-Steve
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I think that care needs to be taken with some of the sweeping generalizations and the terminology being used.
In many areas, contemporary counterfits are legitimate collectibles unto themselves. As previously mentioned, "counterfeits" were created to defraud the government, whereas fakes intended to deceive philatelists are usually called "forgeries".
In my area, U.S. revenues, genuine counterfeits are very much in demand and usually are worth far more than the real stamps they purport to be.
They are a far cry from philatelic forgeries, let alone the modern replicas that proliferate on eBay.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
fakes and counterfeits are highly collectable - and, prices are often higher than genuine.
machin fakes number about 50 ...
they actually served as preview to genuine in developing years of philately. the old catalogs were more thorough than gibbons ...
there is also a class I call album art - facsimiles by album makers
see kobans.blogspot.ca
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
ww1 and ww2 spawned a horde of propaganda forgeries ...
https://www.psywar.org/articles#wwii
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10:53:03am
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
The issue in general is troubling to me.
For example, there is a dealer on eBay who has sold a large number of what he has termed collector envelopes.
Basicaly, he runs an envelope through an ink jet printer for an image of some historical importance, places a reproduction of a US stamp and a reproduced cancel on it with vintage date, a presumably phony address and voila. He has sold many many of these "collector envelopes."
What is also troubling to me, and perhaps more so than the above is now I have seen that that dealer is selling genuine 19th Century covers with an ink jet image of say a quack medicine or gun dealer (both can be very expensive if original) etc. upon the envelope via that pass through the ink jet. He brags how modern technology makes it appear that the ink jet image seems to be beneath the actual ancient handwriting on the original image. He also brags to potential collectors or future scammers for that matter that there is no marking on the envelope to indicate that these are faked. eBay does nothing.
He seems to thrive with many sales of this garbage.
Personally, I think Sister Mary Immaculata should secure him in public stocks and burn his entire inventory of so-called collector envelopes but I suppose my Catholic angst is showing.
Bruce
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Bruce, my heart rate quickened a bit upon reading "Sister Mary Immaculata." She may not have been much taller than I was, but boy could she intimidate!
Am in complete agreement with you on the "collector envelopes." At a minimum, any collectible reproduction should have a marking to that effect. An example would be some of the CSA facsimiles that state as much on the reverse.
-Steve
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Bruce,
Is there any chance you could post an image, or a link to these 'collector envelopes'?
EDIT:
Just seen ikeyPikey's relevant post here: First Day Covers
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Hi Everyone;
Could someone fix this page so I and others can read it without going into the living room and back
and forth just to read it?
By the time you get to the end of a line, you forget where you were. I'm getting a headache from this junk.
Just trying to enjoy....
TuskenRaider
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
It's caused by the link on Geostamper's post just a few up from the bottom.
@Geostamper
Just remove all the crud after and including the question mark, as follows:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NobleSpirit-Excellent-SWITZERLAND-No-68-Used-1-000-CV-/371415698274
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Problem should be fixed. Long URL...
Which makes me wonder, URLs don't wrap?
-Steve
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
That's worked, but now it's the one in Rhinelander's post.... or maybe it's Larsdog's.
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08:44:58pm
re: What to do about Counterfeits?
Ningpo:
Here is an example of one of his, in my opinion, rip-offs.
Note the clever wording and this:
"The back of the envelope is blank. There are no marks on the envelope suggesting that it is a reproduction. The envelope is sure to be a conversation piece and will look great framed in your home, office or business. Frame not included."
There are no marks on the envelope he writes to suggest it is a reproduction.
What bleeping gall.
Bruce
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-Stanley-Planes-Marilyn-Monroe-Featured-on-Collectors-Envelope-X538-/302147737615?hash=item465968980f:g:phMAAOSwZ8ZW-ZU
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I see what you mean. As you rightly suggest, these are ripe for future scammers. I cannot think of any legitimate reason for producing these. And it appears these are being sold by the bucket load: over 16,000 feedback score.
There are a lot of other worrying 'facsimiles' including autographs. What about the used stamps? Could the postmarks be fake as well?
This also caught my eye:
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
When I last saw this joker's covers, he was just doing one offs of fake ad covers on real postmarked old covers.
Now it looks like he's printing fake cancels as well. Note that his signature 4 short bar cancel is the same in San Diego as it is in Daytona... and the Petty ones are dated 1966! eBay may not be doing anything, but isn't it illegal to fake postmarks? Maybe a tip to the postal inspectors is in order?
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
The "cover" to the Smithsonian looks like someone took great care to only singe the edges.
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re: What to do about Counterfeits?
I agree with Dan suggestion but I very much doubt that ebay will do anything about it, pretty much like paypal doesn't do anything about sellers that pass on the fees to buyers, when they're not supposed to. Let's face it when ebay says caveat emptor they mean it! so if you're going to drop big bucks for a stamp, any stamp, be ready to enjoy it or have a permanent headache.
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