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United States/Stamps : Perforation types on US stamps

 

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

18 Nov 2013
01:26:02am
I'm trying to identify the types of some stamps using the perforation type. I'm not talking about the gauge (perf 10 or 11) but the perforator used.

For example, according to Durland, 1580 was perforated 11.2x11.2 by In-Line Perforator; 1580B was perforated 10.5x11.3 by EE (Electric Eye) Perforator; and 1580c was perforated 10.9x10.9 by "L" Perforator. Each of these are quite different at the margins. I can tell the difference by looking at any corner block, such as a simple zip block.

My question regards Bullseye perfs mentioned later in the Durland catalog (such as 1844). Are they the same thing as In-Line perfs, or do they at least present in the same way (perfs don't go to either margin)? I don't see a note anywhere in my 2005 Durland that explains the apparent change of nomenclature.

Lars
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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

20 Nov 2013
01:30:04am
re: Perforation types on US stamps

Wow! 42 reads and ZERO response. I think "Bullseye" is the same thing as (or a subset of) "In-Line" perfs, so I'll go with that. In the mean time, if anyone knows, please chime in.

Anyone?

Bueller?

Anyone?

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khj
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20 Nov 2013
01:57:51am
re: Perforation types on US stamps

Lars, I didn't want to reply until I had a chance to pull out my Great Americans plate blocks and examine the selvage perfs. I still haven't done that yet.

I took a break from stamp collecting around the time the in-line perforator began to dominate. So I cannot confirm my guess to what happened. But...

The L perforator produced what is also referred to as line perforations (Scott calls it line, rather than L). When I returned to stamp collecting, this caused me no shortage of grief in trying to remember which was line perforation and which was in-line perforation (EE perforator had phased out by then). Once the phrase "bullseye" started taking prominence, my confusion disappeared fairly quickly. I suspect that was one reason behind the switch in terminology.

An example is US #C105-C108(bullseye) vs. C105a-108a(line) in the Scott catalog.

There may have been something associated with the press used, but a quick glance doesn't seem to show any obvious links.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

20 Nov 2013
08:04:45pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

"An example is US #C105-C108(bullseye) vs. C105a-108a(line) in the Scott catalog."



Scott calls C105a-108a line perf and Durland calls them L-perf. Scott and Durland BOTH call C105-108 Bullseye perf. But L-perf and In-Line perf are not the same thing. Take a look at 1580 (per Durland):

1580 - In-Line perforator - 11.2 x 11.2 - perfs stop before both margins - holes line up at all 4 corners of an interior stamp
1580B - EE (Electric Eye) perforator - 10.5 x 11.3 - perfs go to edge of side margin only
1580c - "L" Perforator - 10.9 x 10.9 - perfs go to edge of BOTH margins.

I don't have them scanned yet, but I have a plate block of all 3 and, indeed, you can easily discern the difference at a glance. Checking the Great Americans Series from an eBay listing I can see that Bullseye perf = In-Line perf. Thanks for the tip to check the Great Americans Series!


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khj
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20 Nov 2013
08:49:02pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

"But L-perf and In-Line perf are not the same thing."



Exactly my point. What Scott calls "line perforated" is NOT "in-line" perf; rather, it is L perforation. Hence the confusion. I always assumed that's why they switched from calling in-line perforation to bullseye perforation. Scott should just get rid of the word "line". It only causes confusion. I think the footnote after 1596d is about the only place where Scott explains its usage of "line perforated".

The 1975 Christmas card stamp is the de facto standard for understanding the various perforators of that time, and those plate blocks formed the basis of my collection of modern perforation varieties, as it is one of the few stamps that has more than 2 intentional perforation varieties and the selvage makes IDing them trivial.

That being said, there are advantages to selvage collecting. Big Grin

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

21 Nov 2013
08:54:41pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

"That being said, there are advantages to selvage collecting."



Somehow I just KNEW you would get that comment in somewhere! Laughing

I've been looking at ways to use plate numbers and/or selvage as a kind of "mini" certificate of authenticity. It's really amazing how often you can do that!

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khj
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21 Nov 2013
11:41:41pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

Absolutely!

There are some printings that can ONLY be distinguished by selvage, because the stamps themselves are identical but the selvage is not!

For example, the 29c wildflower setenants #2696a(24Jul1992) were printed in two configurations. Scott puts a note in the header about 6 panes of 50 and 4 panes of 50. The press sheet area diagram in the selvage shows which configuration (6 blocks or 4 blocks) in addition to shading the block corresponding to the pane position.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

22 Nov 2013
12:08:48am
re: Perforation types on US stamps

"Absolutely!

There are some printings that can ONLY be distinguished by selvage, because the stamps themselves are identical but the selvage is not!"



I thought you were going to mention the Submarine selvages there: 3377a

I personally don't differentiate things like 2696a and whether the pane came from a sheet of six panes or four panes if there is no difference in the stamps. That would be like collecting plate numbers of stamps otherwise indistinguishable which I don't do. I use plate numbers (and other selvage) to verify type differences.

There is another very interesting "selvage" story in US stamps involving 3897:

http://www.larsdog.com/stamps/pages/C513a.htm

Given that so many trivial differences in 19th Century stamps got major catalog numbers, why this didn't merit at LEAST 3 minor designations is a mystery to me. It sure would be a challenge to find all 3 "minors" on cover!

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Rhinelander
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Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society

22 Nov 2013
08:31:55am
re: Perforation types on US stamps

Hi Lars and khj -- Just to let you know that this posting is pretty good stuff. I don't collect much with respect to US. I even had to google what the Durland catalog is. But I find the reconciliation of different terminology used in Scott and Durland most helpful (if I should ever need it, that is).

Arno

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Stallzer
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22 Nov 2013
01:00:19pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

For US Perforations I understand the Micarelli guide is a must have.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

22 Nov 2013
01:38:29pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

"For US Perforations I understand the Micarelli guide is a must have."



I had never heard of that. When I checked Amazon it only lists a book that goes through 1934, which would go through the 4th Bureau. I use Johl for early 20th Century and Brookman for 19th Century identification. Is there a Micarelli Guide for later issues? What we are discussing is the perforation evolution of the 1970's.

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drmicro68
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22 Nov 2013
04:04:09pm
re: Perforation types on US stamps

The Micarelli Guide is now sold as the Scott Identification Guide to US Regular Issue Stamps 1847-1934, 6th Ed. Buy at AmosPress.com--if you're a Linn's subscriber you qualify for the AmosAdvantage discounts. My edition of the book is the 5th, and was still called the Micarelli Guide to US Regular Issue Stamps 1847-1934. I bought my copy on eBay for a significant discount. You might also try Abebooks.com or Alibris.com to see if they have any of the older editions. The new one from Amos is 39.95 (regular). I think I paid $15.00 for my copy. Hope this helps. BTW I use it primarily for classic US, especially nos. 10 & 11 and 26 (in all its variations). There are expanded line drawings for the changes in the different categories. I don't know how it is on the Washington-Franklins, as that is one set that totally confuses me--I spend a little time on it and then do the Monty Python "Run away!" routine.

Roger

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
18 Nov 2013
01:26:02am

I'm trying to identify the types of some stamps using the perforation type. I'm not talking about the gauge (perf 10 or 11) but the perforator used.

For example, according to Durland, 1580 was perforated 11.2x11.2 by In-Line Perforator; 1580B was perforated 10.5x11.3 by EE (Electric Eye) Perforator; and 1580c was perforated 10.9x10.9 by "L" Perforator. Each of these are quite different at the margins. I can tell the difference by looking at any corner block, such as a simple zip block.

My question regards Bullseye perfs mentioned later in the Durland catalog (such as 1844). Are they the same thing as In-Line perfs, or do they at least present in the same way (perfs don't go to either margin)? I don't see a note anywhere in my 2005 Durland that explains the apparent change of nomenclature.

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
20 Nov 2013
01:30:04am

re: Perforation types on US stamps

Wow! 42 reads and ZERO response. I think "Bullseye" is the same thing as (or a subset of) "In-Line" perfs, so I'll go with that. In the mean time, if anyone knows, please chime in.

Anyone?

Bueller?

Anyone?

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

stamps.colp.info
Members Picture
khj

20 Nov 2013
01:57:51am

re: Perforation types on US stamps

Lars, I didn't want to reply until I had a chance to pull out my Great Americans plate blocks and examine the selvage perfs. I still haven't done that yet.

I took a break from stamp collecting around the time the in-line perforator began to dominate. So I cannot confirm my guess to what happened. But...

The L perforator produced what is also referred to as line perforations (Scott calls it line, rather than L). When I returned to stamp collecting, this caused me no shortage of grief in trying to remember which was line perforation and which was in-line perforation (EE perforator had phased out by then). Once the phrase "bullseye" started taking prominence, my confusion disappeared fairly quickly. I suspect that was one reason behind the switch in terminology.

An example is US #C105-C108(bullseye) vs. C105a-108a(line) in the Scott catalog.

There may have been something associated with the press used, but a quick glance doesn't seem to show any obvious links.

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this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
20 Nov 2013
08:04:45pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

"An example is US #C105-C108(bullseye) vs. C105a-108a(line) in the Scott catalog."



Scott calls C105a-108a line perf and Durland calls them L-perf. Scott and Durland BOTH call C105-108 Bullseye perf. But L-perf and In-Line perf are not the same thing. Take a look at 1580 (per Durland):

1580 - In-Line perforator - 11.2 x 11.2 - perfs stop before both margins - holes line up at all 4 corners of an interior stamp
1580B - EE (Electric Eye) perforator - 10.5 x 11.3 - perfs go to edge of side margin only
1580c - "L" Perforator - 10.9 x 10.9 - perfs go to edge of BOTH margins.

I don't have them scanned yet, but I have a plate block of all 3 and, indeed, you can easily discern the difference at a glance. Checking the Great Americans Series from an eBay listing I can see that Bullseye perf = In-Line perf. Thanks for the tip to check the Great Americans Series!


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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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Members Picture
khj

20 Nov 2013
08:49:02pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

"But L-perf and In-Line perf are not the same thing."



Exactly my point. What Scott calls "line perforated" is NOT "in-line" perf; rather, it is L perforation. Hence the confusion. I always assumed that's why they switched from calling in-line perforation to bullseye perforation. Scott should just get rid of the word "line". It only causes confusion. I think the footnote after 1596d is about the only place where Scott explains its usage of "line perforated".

The 1975 Christmas card stamp is the de facto standard for understanding the various perforators of that time, and those plate blocks formed the basis of my collection of modern perforation varieties, as it is one of the few stamps that has more than 2 intentional perforation varieties and the selvage makes IDing them trivial.

That being said, there are advantages to selvage collecting. Big Grin

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this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
21 Nov 2013
08:54:41pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

"That being said, there are advantages to selvage collecting."



Somehow I just KNEW you would get that comment in somewhere! Laughing

I've been looking at ways to use plate numbers and/or selvage as a kind of "mini" certificate of authenticity. It's really amazing how often you can do that!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

stamps.colp.info
Members Picture
khj

21 Nov 2013
11:41:41pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

Absolutely!

There are some printings that can ONLY be distinguished by selvage, because the stamps themselves are identical but the selvage is not!

For example, the 29c wildflower setenants #2696a(24Jul1992) were printed in two configurations. Scott puts a note in the header about 6 panes of 50 and 4 panes of 50. The press sheet area diagram in the selvage shows which configuration (6 blocks or 4 blocks) in addition to shading the block corresponding to the pane position.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
22 Nov 2013
12:08:48am

re: Perforation types on US stamps

"Absolutely!

There are some printings that can ONLY be distinguished by selvage, because the stamps themselves are identical but the selvage is not!"



I thought you were going to mention the Submarine selvages there: 3377a

I personally don't differentiate things like 2696a and whether the pane came from a sheet of six panes or four panes if there is no difference in the stamps. That would be like collecting plate numbers of stamps otherwise indistinguishable which I don't do. I use plate numbers (and other selvage) to verify type differences.

There is another very interesting "selvage" story in US stamps involving 3897:

http://www.larsdog.com/stamps/pages/C513a.htm

Given that so many trivial differences in 19th Century stamps got major catalog numbers, why this didn't merit at LEAST 3 minor designations is a mystery to me. It sure would be a challenge to find all 3 "minors" on cover!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

stamps.colp.info
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
22 Nov 2013
08:31:55am

re: Perforation types on US stamps

Hi Lars and khj -- Just to let you know that this posting is pretty good stuff. I don't collect much with respect to US. I even had to google what the Durland catalog is. But I find the reconciliation of different terminology used in Scott and Durland most helpful (if I should ever need it, that is).

Arno

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Stallzer

22 Nov 2013
01:00:19pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

For US Perforations I understand the Micarelli guide is a must have.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
22 Nov 2013
01:38:29pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

"For US Perforations I understand the Micarelli guide is a must have."



I had never heard of that. When I checked Amazon it only lists a book that goes through 1934, which would go through the 4th Bureau. I use Johl for early 20th Century and Brookman for 19th Century identification. Is there a Micarelli Guide for later issues? What we are discussing is the perforation evolution of the 1970's.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

stamps.colp.info
Members Picture
drmicro68

22 Nov 2013
04:04:09pm

re: Perforation types on US stamps

The Micarelli Guide is now sold as the Scott Identification Guide to US Regular Issue Stamps 1847-1934, 6th Ed. Buy at AmosPress.com--if you're a Linn's subscriber you qualify for the AmosAdvantage discounts. My edition of the book is the 5th, and was still called the Micarelli Guide to US Regular Issue Stamps 1847-1934. I bought my copy on eBay for a significant discount. You might also try Abebooks.com or Alibris.com to see if they have any of the older editions. The new one from Amos is 39.95 (regular). I think I paid $15.00 for my copy. Hope this helps. BTW I use it primarily for classic US, especially nos. 10 & 11 and 26 (in all its variations). There are expanded line drawings for the changes in the different categories. I don't know how it is on the Washington-Franklins, as that is one set that totally confuses me--I spend a little time on it and then do the Monty Python "Run away!" routine.

Roger

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