Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It also seams it really only make a difference in pre 1960 stamps (for canada at least). Another interesting note is that a cover with a CDS pre 1960 seams to be a good seller.
I would like to hear some thoughts and if there is any area or specific stamps I should look out for.
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Franky,
Have you checked out our previous topics yet? There are some good discussions involving cancels, although they may be more to the older, more classics types than the 2 you mentioned. Also we have some articles that deal with the area if memory serves.
Good hunting.
Dan C.
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It also depends on what country you're looking at; even among British Commonwealth/Empire era cancels, there are some generally similar types (e.g., round CDS) but also some quite exotic "killers" or obliterator cancels. I think cancel studies are far more interesting than flyspecking differences in stamp designs.
Peter
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Specifically I am looking at early canada. But generally I am just interested in how desirable different cancels are and if it is worth my time to sort them out as they pop up. I think i will put aside nice examples of cancels from pre 1960 for canada. I am just a little unsure what exactly is desirable. As far as I can tell the split circle and CDS are the most desirable SON preferably. I found out that SON means smack on the Nose. I am not really interested in specializing in any one area to the point of comparing cancels!!! I did some digging and could not find any informative posts or articles and the topic of cancels.
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11:11:55pm
For early Canada, the most popular series of cancels are (in no particular order of popularity):
1) Fancy cancels on Small and Large Queens (Day & Smythies Fancy Cancels)
2) 2 and 4 ring numeral cancels on First Cents to Small Queens (listed in Unitrade)
3) Squared circle cancels (Moffat and Hansen)
4) RPO (Railway Post Office) cancels (Ludlow)
5) Barrel cancels (large multiple ringed town cancels - have a small but ardent following)
Split circle cancels (also called split-ring cancels) are town cancels that were used from the Small Queen period right into the 1960s (and later for some out of the way places). They are popular because this was the hammer issued to small post offices, and a lot of collectors collect a specific geographic area (mostly their county and neighbouring ones). So they are not popular in their own right, but rather by geographical collectors collecting post offices.
BTW, SON stands for "Socked on the Nose". Naturally cancel collectors want as much of the cancel readable as possible, and this is pretty much the ultimate. Perfectionists also require that SON be upright!
Duplex cancels consist of a town CDS (circular date stamp) plus a (usually) oval barred killer. These have some popularity on cover, but little on stamps, because one can only get the killer part on a single stamp.
If I have missed anybody's favourites, draw my attention to it and I'll see if I have anything to add.
Since I sell almost 100,000 covers a year, I can tell what's popular by how fast things sell and what gets competitive.
Roy
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Hi,
As part of the CDS (Circular Date Stamp)cancels there is a sub set for the Street Name Cancels for example Morris Street/Halifax NS.
Jacques.
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thanks for the info roy. Now I have another project to put on the shelf. I never realized that the cancellation variation was so extensive.
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Roy and others, there are also labels on cancels, such as "Mail Early for Christmas" and first day issue special cancels. Yes, cancel collecting is a large and healthy field but as with any area of collecting, it all depends on what YOU want to collect.
I collect unusual cancel usage, such as one country's cancel on another country's stamp; these are found primarily in places like Hong Kong, Batavia (old Dutch Indonesia), Singapore, etc. where ship mail was canceled at the source or at the receiving port; hence, a Hong Kong stamp with a Macau cancel, for example. I just found it intriguing and don't collect for the possible premium some collectors place on this.
Peter
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Franky, the fact that you NOTICED cancels early on means it IS worth your while to explore. You will likely be drawn in further.
Roy did a nice job of explaining categories. Dan mentioned earlier articles, many of which were penned by Arno, a cancel collecting specialist, who often writes about types of machine cancels.
And to ride Peter's coat tails with Mail Early slogan cancels, seal collectors, among them me, save seal-specific cancels such as "Fight TB, Use Christmas seals" and other variants, which saw their greatest use in the late teens and early twenties of the previous century.
David 
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Here are a couple of example of non-traditional cancels, both being German ship cancels (Deutsche Seepost) on Hong Kong stamps.
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12:26:34pm
Two more Canadian groups I forgot to mention, that are typically collected only on cover due to their size:
Slogan cancels
Canada 1914 Admiral cover with Toronto CNE slogan cancel - Peace Year
a wonderful ironic slogan cancel. Promoting the CNE with the theme Peace Year. Dated May 28, 1914. By the time the CNE opened August 29, World War I was well underway.
Decent early Canadian slogan covers (pre-1940) tend to fetch $2-$10 each. There is a catalogue, but values need to be taken "with a grain of salt". (Slogan Postmarks of Canada - Cecil C. Coutts). Not a terribly popular area of collecting, but it does have some followers. Post-1940 slogans are typically 50c-$1.00 box material, regardless of the catalog value. Has some popularity with topical collectors. I have a weakness for currently "politically incorrect" slogans that were acceptable in the 1940-50s, like "Stamp out VD" and "Help Retarded Children" (used in 68 post offices from 1957-71).
One of my favourites I have tucked away is a Great Britain slogan that reads (approximately - I have to pull it out) "Help Scottish Spastics". The Scottish Spastics Society changed its name in 1994. Their own document here. Just evidence of how the world changes!
Flag cancels
in everyday use from the small queens era to the Admirals, thereafter some more use, but typically for philatelic or other events (notably the 1927 Jubilee and 1937 Coronation). There is a catalog, but my copy seems to have gone AWOL.
An additional note. In times past, it was popular to collect these type of cancels on "two x four" i.e a 2 inch x 4 inch clipping of the envelope. This no longer has any active following. At a recent stamp show, a dealer had acquired a fat binder full of these, with wonderful cancels. He was offering it dirt cheap, but every dealer who saw it just rolled their eyes in frustration with the attitude "what am I going to do with THIS?". As far as I know, it remained unsold, to be stuffed into his next auction consignment as "filler" in a bulk lot.
To others, please note that my discussion involves only Canadian cancels. Extending the discussion to worldwide widens the field as wide as stamp collecting itself!
Roy
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01:36:44pm
People are attracted by different things, from countries or topics to phases of methodology.
Besides my general postally used World Wide interests, I enjoy adding pages that illustrate the "SONs" that you mentioned at first.
Here are some of the CDS SONs of a group of Machins I won at an auction. They, along with many others are to me an interesting supplement to my Machin collection.
I have similar accumulations of common Victoria and Edward Vii issues.
What intrigues me is as I look at the date and place of mailing I often recognize what may have been occurring in the world at that time, perhaps that week or even on occasion a specific day and wonder who might have been writing a letter to whom, (A lover, perhaps, a son about to enter a famous battle) and what might have been going on in their life at that time.
During the reign of George VI I grew up and learned to read, many times from the headlines blazoned across the front pages of our daily newspapers and the cities and towns in Britain were frequently mentioned as unfortunate targets of the Blitz. I can seldom resist a clear CDC from that era featuring one of those locales.
One amazing thing is that during that time of extreme difficulty, people still found the time and energy to write notes and somehow the mail went through
A hopeless romantic ? Guilty, as charged.
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great posts and scans. I will have to be more observant when soaking and sorting. I personally like when the cancel hardly hits the stamp leaving the image clear but a beginning to become more interested in the cancel too. I will plan on sorting the interesting cancels for an accumulation similar to what cdj posted. I am becoming more and more interested in all the details of stamps. Its funny at first all the little details can be annoying and tedious but once I have it sorted out the details add to the allure of collecting.
I cringe to think of the covers I have cut up and soaked!!! Thankfully I can only recall one group of 10 or so and I did take a minute to inspect the cancellation. They appeared to be just normal envelopes to my grandpa. I kept a few of them and all the postcards but I can't help but be curious about what I destroyed!! What appeared to be normal could have been a nice piece in a cover collection. It is funny how ones tastes change over time.
Keep the posts coming. If anyone has info or scans they would like to share on early german cancels I would be interested.
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I see that you have realized that the whole piece is important for many of the cancels. Now you are moving into the area of collecting postal history. The cancel(s), postmark(s), and auxiliary markings on the piece tell a far more interesting story, in many cases, than the stamp itself. An exception to that is collecting stamps from the dead countries, better yet, covers from the dead countries. In the exhibits section of this site is an excellent display by Roy Lingen demonstrating the many different ways covers can be collected. The exhibit is an eduction in itself.
Joel
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ah.... the potential cover collector. First the cancel, then the cover..... Way to go, Franky.
one needn't become a cover collector necessarily to appreciate them for what they are to even put aside those that are interesting for one reason or another.
But you have realized the most essential aspect: once cut up for its parts, a cover is gone. Most will never be missed, but there are great finds out there.
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Regarding postal history: every time I see a cover, particularly an older cover, even a plain vanilla cover, that being relative, I think of it as a slice of life that occurred for someone, for some reason, I think of Thornton Wilder's play OUR TOWN, where Emily, after her death, returns for one day and realizes just how precious life is.
That is what postal history says to me, stamps, postmarks, slogans, killer bars, auxiliary markings and all. A snapshot of life!
Joel
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02:22:53pm
".... That is what postal history says to me, stamps, postmarks, slogans, killer bars, auxiliary markings and all. A snapshot of life! ...."
Your mention of your grandfather's accumulated envelopes reminded me of a poem.
Leaves of Life
An aged shoebox, scuffed and worn,
Its corners crumpled, tied with twine,
A trove of treasures, crammed with cards,
Some crumpled photos, and a Victory Ribbon,
With four Bronze Stars.
Young boys in Texas, being trained for war,
Young men in France, the XVI Corps,
The first owned car, a smart black Ford,
A few love notes, affection's horde.
A tight wrapped bundle, stiff from years,
Of closet's back shelves, and dank, dark eaves,
A life's momentos, smiles and tears,
The tree of life, these were its leaves.
A faded postcard; "How are you, Mom?"
A ration book, and a World's Fair pass,
The Mirror's image; "It's YANKS AGAIN !"
All shared the shoebox with the Victory Ribbon,
And those lonely four Bronze stars.
A neighbor asked for help one day,
I said, "T'would be no bother."
I'd help him clean the empty house,
Of his wife's deceased grandfather.
All things of value now were gone,
Removed by sons and daughters,
A few'd been sold, or trucked away,
For use in other's quarters.
But in the bedroom closet, lay this shoebox,
On the top shelf, pushed far to the rear,
With the things they all considered junk,
But this old veteran had held dear.
It seems so sad that none close had shared,
Those memories and dreams of yore,
Enough, to treasure this crumpled carton,
With its Victory Ribbon, and the four,
Bronze Battle Stars.
© Charlie Jensen
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thanks for the poem cdj. Its a fine balance between junk and treasure isnt it.
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Charlie's poem helps explain why I try hard to keep accumulated material together, to help portray an individual, or a family, and the times in which they lived. While any single cover and/or letter can do that, a trove does so much more, both for the big and little pictures.
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I have dozens of Queen Victoria era used stamps from Natal, and upon inspecting them closer, I found a couple dated 1880, just one year after the Zulu Wars.
I wonder if the letters that accompanied those stamps and the (now lost) envelopes told the story of the battles of iSandlwana, Rorke's Drift, and others. How interesting those letters, even that covers, would have been.
Peter
Note: The original post stated I found an 1879 cancel, the year of iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift battles, but my dyslexia kicked in and I realize now it was 97 not 79! Sorry to any who read the original post.
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Peter, I often wonder the same as to what message did a stamp deliver. During war, could it have been an, "Dear Loved Ones, I'm all right," or a letter from someone else giving bad news.
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02:42:20am
South Africa issued a small but well designed set that memorialized those battles.
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i seem to recall a similar set from Australia or NZ.
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The topic is "different types of cancels" and this is one different type of cancel: A coiled snake! I hadn't seen this type before. The best I can ascertain is that this may be from Lashgar, India.
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I would like to open up a discussion about cancels. I am fairly ignorant in this area. From doing some ebay searches it seams the split circle and CDS cancels are most sought after. The duplex and cork stamps are desirable for some older stamps. There are some called SON but I am unsure what that is all about.
It also seams it really only make a difference in pre 1960 stamps (for canada at least). Another interesting note is that a cover with a CDS pre 1960 seams to be a good seller.
I would like to hear some thoughts and if there is any area or specific stamps I should look out for.
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re: different types of cancels
Franky,
Have you checked out our previous topics yet? There are some good discussions involving cancels, although they may be more to the older, more classics types than the 2 you mentioned. Also we have some articles that deal with the area if memory serves.
Good hunting.
Dan C.
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09:13:37pm
re: different types of cancels
It also depends on what country you're looking at; even among British Commonwealth/Empire era cancels, there are some generally similar types (e.g., round CDS) but also some quite exotic "killers" or obliterator cancels. I think cancel studies are far more interesting than flyspecking differences in stamp designs.
Peter
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re: different types of cancels
Specifically I am looking at early canada. But generally I am just interested in how desirable different cancels are and if it is worth my time to sort them out as they pop up. I think i will put aside nice examples of cancels from pre 1960 for canada. I am just a little unsure what exactly is desirable. As far as I can tell the split circle and CDS are the most desirable SON preferably. I found out that SON means smack on the Nose. I am not really interested in specializing in any one area to the point of comparing cancels!!! I did some digging and could not find any informative posts or articles and the topic of cancels.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
06 Jan 2014
11:11:55pm
re: different types of cancels
For early Canada, the most popular series of cancels are (in no particular order of popularity):
1) Fancy cancels on Small and Large Queens (Day & Smythies Fancy Cancels)
2) 2 and 4 ring numeral cancels on First Cents to Small Queens (listed in Unitrade)
3) Squared circle cancels (Moffat and Hansen)
4) RPO (Railway Post Office) cancels (Ludlow)
5) Barrel cancels (large multiple ringed town cancels - have a small but ardent following)
Split circle cancels (also called split-ring cancels) are town cancels that were used from the Small Queen period right into the 1960s (and later for some out of the way places). They are popular because this was the hammer issued to small post offices, and a lot of collectors collect a specific geographic area (mostly their county and neighbouring ones). So they are not popular in their own right, but rather by geographical collectors collecting post offices.
BTW, SON stands for "Socked on the Nose". Naturally cancel collectors want as much of the cancel readable as possible, and this is pretty much the ultimate. Perfectionists also require that SON be upright!
Duplex cancels consist of a town CDS (circular date stamp) plus a (usually) oval barred killer. These have some popularity on cover, but little on stamps, because one can only get the killer part on a single stamp.
If I have missed anybody's favourites, draw my attention to it and I'll see if I have anything to add.
Since I sell almost 100,000 covers a year, I can tell what's popular by how fast things sell and what gets competitive.
Roy
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12:15:00am
re: different types of cancels
Hi,
As part of the CDS (Circular Date Stamp)cancels there is a sub set for the Street Name Cancels for example Morris Street/Halifax NS.
Jacques.
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re: different types of cancels
thanks for the info roy. Now I have another project to put on the shelf. I never realized that the cancellation variation was so extensive.
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this post
07:42:56am
re: different types of cancels
Roy and others, there are also labels on cancels, such as "Mail Early for Christmas" and first day issue special cancels. Yes, cancel collecting is a large and healthy field but as with any area of collecting, it all depends on what YOU want to collect.
I collect unusual cancel usage, such as one country's cancel on another country's stamp; these are found primarily in places like Hong Kong, Batavia (old Dutch Indonesia), Singapore, etc. where ship mail was canceled at the source or at the receiving port; hence, a Hong Kong stamp with a Macau cancel, for example. I just found it intriguing and don't collect for the possible premium some collectors place on this.
Peter
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re: different types of cancels
Franky, the fact that you NOTICED cancels early on means it IS worth your while to explore. You will likely be drawn in further.
Roy did a nice job of explaining categories. Dan mentioned earlier articles, many of which were penned by Arno, a cancel collecting specialist, who often writes about types of machine cancels.
And to ride Peter's coat tails with Mail Early slogan cancels, seal collectors, among them me, save seal-specific cancels such as "Fight TB, Use Christmas seals" and other variants, which saw their greatest use in the late teens and early twenties of the previous century.
David
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09:24:40am
re: different types of cancels
Here are a couple of example of non-traditional cancels, both being German ship cancels (Deutsche Seepost) on Hong Kong stamps.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
07 Jan 2014
12:26:34pm
re: different types of cancels
Two more Canadian groups I forgot to mention, that are typically collected only on cover due to their size:
Slogan cancels
Canada 1914 Admiral cover with Toronto CNE slogan cancel - Peace Year
a wonderful ironic slogan cancel. Promoting the CNE with the theme Peace Year. Dated May 28, 1914. By the time the CNE opened August 29, World War I was well underway.
Decent early Canadian slogan covers (pre-1940) tend to fetch $2-$10 each. There is a catalogue, but values need to be taken "with a grain of salt". (Slogan Postmarks of Canada - Cecil C. Coutts). Not a terribly popular area of collecting, but it does have some followers. Post-1940 slogans are typically 50c-$1.00 box material, regardless of the catalog value. Has some popularity with topical collectors. I have a weakness for currently "politically incorrect" slogans that were acceptable in the 1940-50s, like "Stamp out VD" and "Help Retarded Children" (used in 68 post offices from 1957-71).
One of my favourites I have tucked away is a Great Britain slogan that reads (approximately - I have to pull it out) "Help Scottish Spastics". The Scottish Spastics Society changed its name in 1994. Their own document here. Just evidence of how the world changes!
Flag cancels
in everyday use from the small queens era to the Admirals, thereafter some more use, but typically for philatelic or other events (notably the 1927 Jubilee and 1937 Coronation). There is a catalog, but my copy seems to have gone AWOL.
An additional note. In times past, it was popular to collect these type of cancels on "two x four" i.e a 2 inch x 4 inch clipping of the envelope. This no longer has any active following. At a recent stamp show, a dealer had acquired a fat binder full of these, with wonderful cancels. He was offering it dirt cheap, but every dealer who saw it just rolled their eyes in frustration with the attitude "what am I going to do with THIS?". As far as I know, it remained unsold, to be stuffed into his next auction consignment as "filler" in a bulk lot.
To others, please note that my discussion involves only Canadian cancels. Extending the discussion to worldwide widens the field as wide as stamp collecting itself!
Roy
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Jan 2014
01:36:44pm
re: different types of cancels
People are attracted by different things, from countries or topics to phases of methodology.
Besides my general postally used World Wide interests, I enjoy adding pages that illustrate the "SONs" that you mentioned at first.
Here are some of the CDS SONs of a group of Machins I won at an auction. They, along with many others are to me an interesting supplement to my Machin collection.
I have similar accumulations of common Victoria and Edward Vii issues.
What intrigues me is as I look at the date and place of mailing I often recognize what may have been occurring in the world at that time, perhaps that week or even on occasion a specific day and wonder who might have been writing a letter to whom, (A lover, perhaps, a son about to enter a famous battle) and what might have been going on in their life at that time.
During the reign of George VI I grew up and learned to read, many times from the headlines blazoned across the front pages of our daily newspapers and the cities and towns in Britain were frequently mentioned as unfortunate targets of the Blitz. I can seldom resist a clear CDC from that era featuring one of those locales.
One amazing thing is that during that time of extreme difficulty, people still found the time and energy to write notes and somehow the mail went through
A hopeless romantic ? Guilty, as charged.
Login to Like
this post
re: different types of cancels
great posts and scans. I will have to be more observant when soaking and sorting. I personally like when the cancel hardly hits the stamp leaving the image clear but a beginning to become more interested in the cancel too. I will plan on sorting the interesting cancels for an accumulation similar to what cdj posted. I am becoming more and more interested in all the details of stamps. Its funny at first all the little details can be annoying and tedious but once I have it sorted out the details add to the allure of collecting.
I cringe to think of the covers I have cut up and soaked!!! Thankfully I can only recall one group of 10 or so and I did take a minute to inspect the cancellation. They appeared to be just normal envelopes to my grandpa. I kept a few of them and all the postcards but I can't help but be curious about what I destroyed!! What appeared to be normal could have been a nice piece in a cover collection. It is funny how ones tastes change over time.
Keep the posts coming. If anyone has info or scans they would like to share on early german cancels I would be interested.
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07:19:02pm
re: different types of cancels
I see that you have realized that the whole piece is important for many of the cancels. Now you are moving into the area of collecting postal history. The cancel(s), postmark(s), and auxiliary markings on the piece tell a far more interesting story, in many cases, than the stamp itself. An exception to that is collecting stamps from the dead countries, better yet, covers from the dead countries. In the exhibits section of this site is an excellent display by Roy Lingen demonstrating the many different ways covers can be collected. The exhibit is an eduction in itself.
Joel
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this post
re: different types of cancels
ah.... the potential cover collector. First the cancel, then the cover..... Way to go, Franky.
one needn't become a cover collector necessarily to appreciate them for what they are to even put aside those that are interesting for one reason or another.
But you have realized the most essential aspect: once cut up for its parts, a cover is gone. Most will never be missed, but there are great finds out there.
Login to Like
this post
03:07:58pm
re: different types of cancels
Regarding postal history: every time I see a cover, particularly an older cover, even a plain vanilla cover, that being relative, I think of it as a slice of life that occurred for someone, for some reason, I think of Thornton Wilder's play OUR TOWN, where Emily, after her death, returns for one day and realizes just how precious life is.
That is what postal history says to me, stamps, postmarks, slogans, killer bars, auxiliary markings and all. A snapshot of life!
Joel
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
09 Jan 2014
02:22:53pm
re: different types of cancels
".... That is what postal history says to me, stamps, postmarks, slogans, killer bars, auxiliary markings and all. A snapshot of life! ...."
Your mention of your grandfather's accumulated envelopes reminded me of a poem.
Leaves of Life
An aged shoebox, scuffed and worn,
Its corners crumpled, tied with twine,
A trove of treasures, crammed with cards,
Some crumpled photos, and a Victory Ribbon,
With four Bronze Stars.
Young boys in Texas, being trained for war,
Young men in France, the XVI Corps,
The first owned car, a smart black Ford,
A few love notes, affection's horde.
A tight wrapped bundle, stiff from years,
Of closet's back shelves, and dank, dark eaves,
A life's momentos, smiles and tears,
The tree of life, these were its leaves.
A faded postcard; "How are you, Mom?"
A ration book, and a World's Fair pass,
The Mirror's image; "It's YANKS AGAIN !"
All shared the shoebox with the Victory Ribbon,
And those lonely four Bronze stars.
A neighbor asked for help one day,
I said, "T'would be no bother."
I'd help him clean the empty house,
Of his wife's deceased grandfather.
All things of value now were gone,
Removed by sons and daughters,
A few'd been sold, or trucked away,
For use in other's quarters.
But in the bedroom closet, lay this shoebox,
On the top shelf, pushed far to the rear,
With the things they all considered junk,
But this old veteran had held dear.
It seems so sad that none close had shared,
Those memories and dreams of yore,
Enough, to treasure this crumpled carton,
With its Victory Ribbon, and the four,
Bronze Battle Stars.
© Charlie Jensen
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re: different types of cancels
thanks for the poem cdj. Its a fine balance between junk and treasure isnt it.
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re: different types of cancels
Charlie's poem helps explain why I try hard to keep accumulated material together, to help portray an individual, or a family, and the times in which they lived. While any single cover and/or letter can do that, a trove does so much more, both for the big and little pictures.
Login to Like
this post
10:56:07am
re: different types of cancels
I have dozens of Queen Victoria era used stamps from Natal, and upon inspecting them closer, I found a couple dated 1880, just one year after the Zulu Wars.
I wonder if the letters that accompanied those stamps and the (now lost) envelopes told the story of the battles of iSandlwana, Rorke's Drift, and others. How interesting those letters, even that covers, would have been.
Peter
Note: The original post stated I found an 1879 cancel, the year of iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift battles, but my dyslexia kicked in and I realize now it was 97 not 79! Sorry to any who read the original post.
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09:41:49pm
re: different types of cancels
Peter, I often wonder the same as to what message did a stamp deliver. During war, could it have been an, "Dear Loved Ones, I'm all right," or a letter from someone else giving bad news.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Jan 2014
02:42:20am
re: different types of cancels
South Africa issued a small but well designed set that memorialized those battles.
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re: different types of cancels
i seem to recall a similar set from Australia or NZ.
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08:44:03am
re: different types of cancels
The topic is "different types of cancels" and this is one different type of cancel: A coiled snake! I hadn't seen this type before. The best I can ascertain is that this may be from Lashgar, India.
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