Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It's also useful for making temporary labels on stocksheets or glassines, since you can write on the surface.
While I don't think I'll use it to mount anything expensive, it's an interesting possible alternative to the non-peelable modern hinges that we have these days. If you've tried it, what do you think?
Best
BG
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From my dicussions with the APS Sales DIvision regarding finding several sales books in circuits that I received with stamps mounted with this type of tape, the answer is that the jury is still out on this. There have been no long-term tests made to figure out what the long-term effect is with this tape on stamps. Yes, the tape peels easily when it is fresh, but what happens after the tape has been on a stamp for a year? 5 years? 10 years?. What happens to a stamp after the tape has been removed? Will th3e stamp begin exhibiting toning, gum damage at a time in the future??? Those questions have yet to be answered.
For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape.
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04:15:52am
" .... I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape. ...."
A statement that I suspect most long time collectors would willingly endorse.
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I think I may do my own test with some inexpensive stamps. Compared to the gobs of sticky goo that I've been scraping off the backs of recent self-adhesives (I call it "stamp snot"), it seems pretty benign. Only time will tell, but it might take a long time to really tell for certain.
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OMG "stamp snot" I will never be able to look at self-adhesive gum the same way ever again! ROFLMBO!!!! funnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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I have found ( thru circuit books ) that the tape seems to work fine with Mint stamps. However I have found that the tape ruins used stamps !!!! I guess that it peals off easily from the gum on the mint stamps.
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I have use it for over 10 years. I am 100% satisfied. It adds tremendous flexibility to aesthetic considerations for your collections, as you can easily move stamps, and display pages as you want.
While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!
I called 3M many years ago, before they had met the photo safe ISO Standard 18916, talked to their engineers and was assured that is was acid free, safe and harmless to stamps.
Since then they have met the ISO 18916 standards, which is quite exhaustive.
Still and quite understandably, I will not use it directly on a very expensive stamp (always in a mount), but I do use it regularly on all stamps in my collections, and also on all my SOR Approval books. This allows me to use SOR pre-printed pages rather than expensive uni-plates or , and it also minimizes handling of stamps and simplifies inventory management which is a prime source of errors.
I currently have a roll of 811 in a standard 3M tape dispenser and I dispense it just like I would with regular tape. If you are ecology minded, you can even reuse it! So I am not using regular tape any more on my desk to avoid any confusion, and this is just fine!
By the way, I buy it from Amazon, as it may be hard to find in office supply stores, and there are less photography stores around, so you won't find it easily.
I know that the stamp collector purists will always have doubts, certainly justified by past history (the stains left on stamps by early tape), but I for one am all for moving with technology and experimenting, and this technology seems to work perfectly, as far as my experience is concerned. Think about it, if technology had not moved ahead we would still be mounting stamps with glued paper hinges! This is just a step in our technological progress. What I would really like now, is for the glue technology used on 3M 811 tape to be used on stamp mounts, eliminating the wet and stick it approach, and also the single use limitation...plus no more torn pages if you ever want to move a mount! Anyone wants to start a new business?
rrr....
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"Michael: re For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape."
Unfortunately Michael, there is no scientific way to guarantee that any stamp that you get today has not been mounted using 3M 811 tape in its previous life.
While MNH should mean that, it does however refer to the fact that the Mint stamp has no hinge mark!
Any other assumption is wishful thinking, and even misleading.
rrr
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After seeing this thread on the use of the 811 scotch tape I thought I would give it a try since it would be so easy.
DO NOT USE IT!
I found that on older stamps that have softer paper than the new ones that the tape sticks too well to the fibers of the paper and will thin the stamp when trying to remove it. Also it does leave behind sticky residue on a lot of the stamps even if it does peel off. This I have found out after only about a week of having some mounted on pages.
I would imagine over time it will only get worse.
I will now go try to salvage what I can from over fifty pages of mounted stamps!
I learned the hard way again!
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One thing to remember for future. When trying something new, get some cheap, duplicate stamps and try it out on them first.
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Well Jim, you were warned about the use of 811 on older porous paper stamps:
"While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!"
They are hinges, not mounts, so any comparison is relative. Also how you remove a hinge is a trick you learn, whatever hinge you use!
I have been using them for over 5 years, and I still swear by them...but each one his own! They are still for my mind good for temporary use. I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute.
As far as residue is concerned, I noticed occasional on and off issues with changes in 3M's formulation over time, but if there is any residue at all it is very minor, and just rubs off with a stroke of the fingers. Often wondered if it was temperature dependant? Don't know.
Also, the latest batch of 811 tape is significantly thinner than before, so I have had hinges break...but then you just peel off the broken piece! I also found out that you can easily re-use them.
So again, I think it is a personal choice. I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS. But I find them in use in collections and displays, and I am still a fan, using them for extended (now as much as 5 years) but temporary use. Ideally all my stamps will be in mounts.
rrr...
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12:05:56am
" .... I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute. ...."
I will crtainly agree that abjuring hinges is a personal decision.
On the other hand, I suspect that a significant majority of collectors have, over the last 150 years and even now, used and continues to use hinges.
Probably somewhat fewer use them on mint stamps as well.
I have used, and intend to continue to use, hinges on both used and unused as well as souvenir sheetlets and booklet panes from my penny black and Us 3s 1 & 2.
If some subsequent owner of my stamps is unhappy about that he can come to my graveside and complain.
So while mounts are popular with many collectors it is up to the modern user to decide for him or her self how to mount their stamps. Mounts are not the universal choice. In fact, every stamp dealer I can ever recall visiting has had a box of hinges available to sell. There have been a few dealers who (At least at theat moment.) did not have or did not carry mounts.
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"I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS."
Any such "scientific and definitive pronouncement" about the advisability of using hinges would be useful only for the brands and specific batches that were tested. Any formulation of anything that is used today will probably be different tomorrow, and there simply is no way to know the very-long-term effect of any formulation of anything on any substance. We can only make guesses based on small samples and adequate testing of individual products.
A few years ago, a woman from the Vancouver Archives spoke to my stamp club about paper conservation. One of her messages was that all adhesives leave residue on paper, and that no one can know how that adhesive might eventually degrade the paper. Another significant point she made was that all paper becomes degraded over time, and there's nothing that can be done to preserve it over the very long haul.
Bob
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Thanks for the info on 3M 811. Has anyone used this tape for mounting Hawid or Showguard style mounts instead of water activation? I was concerned with bulk on the album page, but would like to reuse mounts, especially for those definitive issues studies that require periodic album page changes.
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Regards,
Don
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Don,
I have the same problem: how to re-use Hawid and Showguard type mounts. In most cases there is enough adhesive remaining, especially if the bottom half had not been previously used. In the remaining cases, I'm experimenting with careful use of a glue stick. Tonight I will check it for acidity. I thought about double-stick take for about 1/10 of a second. After seeing the ugly brown residue from sticky tape after a few years, I will not put it anywhere my stamps!
The 811 tape probably wouldn't work on the mounts. It is not double sided, so you would need to create a double-plus thickness loop. Even then, I doubt the tape has the long-term griping strength we need. Think of the 811 tape as basically a long strip thin Post-It note. It is designed to be slightly tacky but then release easily.
The comment by jkm0644 above is accurate for older or damaged stamps. In my testing with some old stamps damaged by thins, tears, or hinge-removal abrasion, the 811 tape did pull off additional tiny bits. Again, think of a Post-It note: if that would cause damage, the 811 tape might as well. In no case did the 811 tape damage a sound stamp. Now my experience is not that deep or long. Fewer than 100 stamps with no long-term observations.
Steve
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Excellent info, Steve. I do appreciate it. I think that I will try to work with my mounts and less water activation. I am having to redo several album leaves and those mounts can get pricey. I plan to do this album properly and I've been working on my style for a few months. when I get the templates and stamps in place I will post a few pages.
I am greatly indebted to Larsdog for his work in putting his entire US collection on the Internets... He has given me a few ideas for my own path. 
Happy New Year!
Don
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One further comment. It seems that 3M has changed the formulation. It uses thinner tape, which occasionally breaks when you bend it, hinge like, and there seems to be a new issue with residue.
While the breaking is an annoyance, the residue is a worry.
I compared older 811 to the newer one, bought from Amazon. The newer formulation is inferior. I am most concerned about the residue. I will be contacting 3M to clarify what is going on.
rrr...
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Ralph --
I'll be interested in learning what you hear back from them, if anything, about the reformulation.
Based on the discussion here, I did order a roll (through Staples, free delivery to the store). I'm still undecided about how I will ultimately use it, but I have started using it in place of conventional tape when I need to tape a glassine in an outgoing stamp purchase).
Please keep us posted as you learn more.
-- Dave
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Dave: I reported the perceived change to the 811 tape composition to 3M
Here is the on going correspondence (edited)
3M customer service, Office Products:
Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves a residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
---------------------------------
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
----------------------
My response: Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon now.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature.
If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll I now own.
Ralph
PS: Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need) Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for a very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
-------------------------
Dave: I will be sending samples for analysis, and I will report back.
By the way, I went and checked quickly on tape used by me, as far back as 5+ years ago...and there are no perceived problems.
rrr...
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Thanks for going to the trouble to post this, Ralph. I really appreciate it, and I imagine there would be others here, too, who appreciate it.
As I mentioned already, I am just using it for light packing purposes right now, where it does a good job, but I had been considering some additional philatelic uses, so I will await the next episode in this unfolding saga.
Thanks for your efforts on this!
-- Dave
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I only use 3M double-sided tape to mount illustrations I have printed for album and exhibit pages, and (sometimes) to mount Hawid mounts that have been used previously and are missing some of their gum. I too have noticed that the tape has changed. It does seem thinner, and a lot tougher to cut. I can't imagine that 3M would ever reveal its formulas, nor is it likely that the company uses the same formulas over time, or that they would ever provide useful responses to queries. I just don't trust large corporations.
Bob
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I bet the answer to this is that the suppliers have outsourced the production to a third party and the quality control people don't have a handle on it yet.
I used to work in a warehouse for a major UK retailer ( which had better remain nameless -also the field in which it worked ).The company issued a spec and invited competitive tenders and always chose the cheapest ( naturally). There were occasions when the winning company's product was substandard, upon which the product had to be recalled from the stores ( at the tenderers expense) with great inconvenience to the company, and the customers.
My son is a senior procurement manager (buying both raw materials and manufactured product) for a company( which had also better remain nameless) whose products are not a million miles removed from some of the products sold by your supplier - and because of the wide inventory they carry, some products have to be bought in - and it should be noted that in the chemicals field some products ( and their components) are potentially hazardous. Quality control and testing of products is a major concern - and major activity. They appear to be on top of it, but it only needs a minor slip by someone.........
Malcolm
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Hi Everyone;
I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer for several years, and had to teach managers what
Quality Control was really all about.
Step one make sure you can produce something the same way twice in a row. I never make
my chili the same way twice, I like it that way, BUT I could never sell it as a product. Managers
never get this, that you can't make a change if the target is always moving.
When you achieve consistent results, even if wrong, then you can make a change to improve
a process. Don't try too much change until you see how well the changes affect quality. Finally
continue to add tweaks, and its is okay to find ways to make cheaper, without affecting quality.
Never have it made in China, unless your making a batch of chili. That nation's officials do not
like quality people checking up on them. I think it must be some kind of cultural pride thing or
something, or just communist snobbery.
@ Malcolm;
What you call outsourcing, we used to refer to as "Charlie Cheaper Disease".
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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I am a retired 3M employee that worked in product development for more than 20 years and in technical service for a couple of years after that. I suspect the commenters that had been in manufacturing have hit the nail on the head. We always qualified more than one raw materials supplier because you never know when one may go out of business or be acquired by a competitor. Our qualification process was vigorous to assure that the specifications met the criteria of our target market.
Unfortunately, philately is not the target market for this product so the testing standards will never be set according to stamp collecting criteria. Unfortunately also, the philately market is undoubtedly too small to make a profit if the standards were tightened to meet the stringent criteria serious collectors want.
Product developers and tech service reps often have a push-pull relationship with marketers who would like to increase sales by increasing the number of way a product can be used and with manufacturing engineers who would like to increase profitability by finding ways to make a product less expensively. "Off-label" uses (uses the product was never designed for) are generally not discouraged but are at the users discretion and risk. If the market were large enough perhaps product claims for the new use would be documented, raw material criteria changed, and testing standards adjusted to meet the needs of that use. This can be quite expensive and is not often done if the consumer is willing to purchase the product and assume the risks without it.
I always felt good about the quality of the products I was involved with at 3M and 3M's business practices are well-respected. Not all manufacturers are as concerned with quality and backing up their claims as 3M is.
That being said, this has been just a small glimpse behind the curtain concerning how just about everything you have is produced.
Karen aka kehess, a nerdy lab-rat.
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11:57:39am
I'm not sure if this is the same tape, but several years ago a member of my stamp club claimed he found a tape that can be used as a hinge. He used it extensively in his collection. He died a few years ago and left a portion of his collection to the club. I am finding that the stamps mounted using this tape do leave a residue. It is not bad and there is no staining. I was removing stamps (nothing valuable) from the pages and putting them in a pile. When I went to separate the stamps in the pile they were sticking together. It is almost like the stamps have a static charge. I was able to separate them easily without damage but they still have a cling. I don't know anyone who would want them for their collection. I have not tried soaking them yet to see if that removes it.
Bob
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Bob, that slightly sticky residue after a long period of time that you describe sounds like what I experience with old Post-It notes, and further reinforces that analogy in my mind. So probably okay for short term use, but probably not for long term.
The short term use I have in mind is arranging stamps on a page before mounting them with hinges. The 811 tape will let me move the stamps around until I get them just right. It would even give me a month or two to do so in case I need to find a new stamp to fill a gap.
Steve
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A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed.
Bob
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"A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
Now, we just have to find 'good quality stamp hinges'
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While nothing will beat the good ol' Dennison hinges, I currently am using the Supersafe hinges by Vidiforms (the Showgard people). I have also used the Prinz hinges. From what I have seen, both brands are about the same quality. I try to use as little moisture as possible on small flap that gets attached to the stamp. They work about as good as it gets for today's philatelic world.
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Prinz, Michael? Holy crap, I will NEVER touch another PRINZ hinge in my life... EVER! I had a bag of them in storage (along with some Supersafe's), never been opened, so you'd think even in storage they should be fine. I opened the bag, and start trying to attach the Prinz hinges...
Not a SINGLE hinge would adhere to ANY stamp. It was basically a "new" bag that had NO glue on any single hinge. I think they were only about a year old (but again, the bag was never opened), and basically a total loss of purchasing money.
I've sworn myself off of ever touching any more Prinz's in this lifetime.
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Sounds like you may have had a defective batch. I never had any problems with the Prinz hinges, and I used them for many years.
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Thanks, Michael, for posting that update! Very interesting!
---
For what it's worth, this discussion did make me aware of the tape. I bought some (had to special order it from Office Depot), and, while I haven't tried it directly with stamps, it is what I use when I need to use a little bit of tape to pack stamp orders for shipping. (To be clear, that's when tape is needed with the contents -- not, of course, for anything on the outside, where I don't think it would do its job very well.)
At least I have some peace of mind that, when the recipients opens a package, if they accidentally touch the stamps to the tape, it won't cause the kind of damage it would with regular tape. (And I don't use much -- usually none. But occasionally it's necessary.)
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Awhile back I received some stamps that had some odd hinges attached to them. They had a silicon feel to them and seemed to be the best "hinge" I have ever seen.
They peeled perfectly leaving little to no sign of hinging on mint stamps. They appeared to be cut and prefolded hinges but now I cannot wonder if they might be the 3M 811 tape. Has anyone else seen this type of "hinge". In my years of using many different types of tapes for many types of applications, no one beats 3M for dependability and ease of removal. If anyone can produce a good hinging media it is them.
As my last bag of Dennison's is about half gone I'm getting desperate to try something new so I'm going to try the 811.
As far as mounting mounts used or new, I always use brand name glue sticks. The glue on the backs of mounts is usually either to aggressive or not tacky enough. I have had no problems with glue sticks and mounts are easily removed without damaging the album page. Any residue left on the page is usually easily removed with an eraser.
As to MNH it means to me that the gum has no disturbance what sover except if it was part of the gumming process when manufactured or in the natural aging of the gum. Just thinking it means "Never Hinged" is misleading. I rather prefer the European term "Post Fresh"
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"I rather prefer the European term "Post Fresh""
lol, I hate that term.
To me it's pretty much meaningless, as I have bought some real crap at the post office counter in the past. Before I learned to check for such things, I was sold creased and wrinkled sheets, plate blocks or setenant blocks with partially separated perfs, stamps with disturbed gum, fingerprints(!) in the gum, dirty stamps, stamps that were stuck to the bottom or top of others, and much more recently self-adhesives with part of the backing paper ripped off.
To each their own. I guess the lesson is to read descriptions very carefully and ask lots of questions.
Chris
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These are NOT mounts. This is a roll of tape intended for use on archival material.
The APS is studying the 811 tape, and has recommended for the moment that sellers not use the tape to mount stamps with. I believe that it was Ralph who reported an inconsistency with the glue used on the tape that caused some damage.
Many APS sales books were beginning to appear with stamps mounted with the tape. There were several instances where I removed the tape, but the gum residue remained on the stamp. Since I do not generally collect used stamps, and I rarely buy a used stamp from an APS circuit, I cannot say how that tape affects used stamps. It has been several months now since I have seen an APS sales book where the stamps were mounted with the tape.
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About the 811 3M archival tape. Photo-safe to ISO Standard 18916. Here is again my experience with it:
There was ONE instance of what probably was a defective (or counterfiet) tape roll that behaved differently than before (over the last 5-10 years):
1. the tape was more brittle, and occasionally broke off on the fold, when you put it and removed it several time. This was no big deal, as you could always remove the broken piece, but it was a warning sign, because the 3M tape had never broken before.
2. This particular roll left a residue when removed. I alerted 3M, but they did not follow up with more testing, even after my reaching out to them several times. Their service department had indicated that they thought the roll might have been old (I bought it via Amazon), which would not be comforting, and is probably wrong!
3. My older tape, some of it in use for some 5-10 years, never had an issue other than those discussed before in the Discussion Board, so I think it was defective roll for whatever reason.
Now before everyone freaks out again about residue, let me say that even in this egregious case, it always rubbed off with just a finger motion, with no marks left behind. But it annoyed the hell out of me!
Now to be perfectly clear, every so often, based on the stamp paper you stick the tape to, or some other factor, a minor residue can be noted. It rubs off with a finger. I don't agonize over it any more...I just rub it off. I think it may be a hit or miss case, and I have not been able to tell why, nor how often it occurs. But it is a small and 100% reversible inconvenience that is less than the benefits of the tape for me.
I have used it for 5-10 years. Gone back to my oldest book I used it on, and everything is as it was before, with no residue, no toning no nothing. It was still possible to re-use the hinges! (by the way, reusing a hinge could lessen the potential for left over residue, I would think).
Now I would really like to see the APS issue the results of a formal study on the tape and its long term effects (over 10 years now for me). So I still think of it as a temporary method for stamp attachment....but that is a long "temporary".
But meanwhile, here is my advice, and these are all common sense:
1. Do not use it on used stamps with pourous paper, or be very cautious pulling the tape off.
2. Use less tape rather than more. My current hinges are 1/8 to 3/16th inch or 3-3.5 mm wide. When ready to use it, fold it in half and stick it as you would with a regular hinge. Less is better, it is more economical and it works just fine. Less also probably lessens any other potential adhesion problems.
3. Use the Kim's method for preparing hinges. (Paraphrasing, but maybe Kim can share again with us: put the tape down on a hard surface in strips 5 to 10 inch long and cut it vertically with an exacto knife in stips that you can peel off and use on the stamps when it is time). I suspect that this method may also pulls off any potential residue off the tape. For the math: strips of 5-10 inches, 3 strips side by side to cut in 3/8 inch wide hinges yields ~ 75-150 hinges!
4. Can be used with mounts. They have so far performed flawlessly for me with or without mounts. Note: when I use them on mounts, I make my hinges a bit wider, as it holds a heavier mount more securely in place.
5. Be conservative with your collection, and do not use it directly on the more expensive stuff (which should go in mounts anyway). And go back and test what you have done before, from time to time, for peace of mind.
I know any new technological terrain is always ground for detractors and doubters. But it was not too long ago that hinges were glue soaked strips of paper, and bad non-removable hinges were a real problem more recently...so my mantra is to move with the technological times, always experiment scientifically, conservatively, and be swayed by the evidence.
rrr...
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I admit, I have been purposely avoiding posting in this thread. Bad experience in a thread elsewhere, so I pretty much kept discussions private. This thread seems to be able to maintain a good level of constructive discussion regarding 811, and not unrelated hinge/mount disasters of other products. I'm especially impressed that many of the comments have been made by collectors actually testing the product or interested in knowing more, rather than comments by pre-biased collectors who have never tried it or know little about it.
Unlike the others, I have used 811 VERY sparingly. I'm still busy sorting most of my stamps and end up still putting them in stockbooks/stockpages and hingeless albums.
I do not use 811 on porous paper. I don't recommend it for porous paper. But frankly, you will run into the same problem peeling a Dennison hinge off porous paper -- you usually don't notice because conventional hinges are not really that transparent and you don't see the paper fibers unless you examine it close with a magnifier. I don't recommend testing this, but I would argue that you probably take off a lot more paper fibers peeling a Dennison hinge off porous paper than using 811 -- not that either is acceptable.
In my limited experience, I have not had any problem with residue. I don't think I have a bad eye when it comes to faults, but I've never been able to notice any residue whatsoever. This could be related to the way I make my 811 hinges -- I put them lengthwise halfway on strips of cardstock (as a hinge holder) and then overlay the about 5 strips on top of each other, and then use a paper cutter to cut off stacks of hinges. I can make hundreds of hinges very quickly in this manner. In these stacks, the tape has already "stuck" to something (either the cardstock holder or another hinge in the stack). I wouldn't be surprised if that had the effect of "cleaning" any potential residue from the adhesive side of the tape.
My only real complaint about 811, is that the backing is difficult to fold. That is why I use the cardstock strips as holders, since I can also use it to press a "bend" in the hinge as I apply it to the stamp.
I know a lot of readers may be shocked that we are using "tape". Don't think of it as "tape", because it's not conventional tape as we all know it. Also, not all adhesives were made equal. It's like saying all stamps are the same, and if you have one then you know about all the other stamps. 3M has a list of tens of thousands of adhesives, many of which are especially designed to be inert for specific conditions or specific material contacts. During my years in the research lab, it was my experience that quality control of commercial 3M products was exceptional.
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"That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
What Bob said is correct. ALL adhesives will leave a residue. And certainly at microscopic level (we used 3M adhesives in our Electron Microscope studies). If any 811 residue bothers you, you probably should not use this product (for your own peace of mind -- you should enjoy your collection, not worry about it).
There is actually a ton of residue on your stamps, some you can see, some you cannot. The main questions are:
1) is the residue relatively inert
2) is it sufficiently visible to bother you
For instance, fingerprints bother me. Most people don't see them, but I do. Relatively speaking, they are not inert, but the damage they cause is not noticeable by most people. Because most people don't see them, it doesn't bother them. Dust fibers don't bother me, because they are relatively inert and because I know I can remove them easily if I wanted to. The latter is my attitude toward any 811 residue. But as I mentioned in my lengthy post above, I have not run into residue problems so far.
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I have been using Scotch 2002 Double Sided Removable Photo and Document Tape on my stamps for four years now; this tape is photo-safe AND acid free. Best move I ever made. (The tape meets key high quality standards for sensitive items like art material and photos: International Standardization Organization ISO #18916 (2007) which deals with stability on usage on photographic images and ASTM #D-4236 -- Standard Practice for Labeling Art Materials).
After fours years of use: I can remove stamps that are placed with this tape with no problem. Try removing a standard hinge from a used stamp without an damage -- not easy to do. This removes like a breeze. The only caveat I would note is that one must use small/tiny snippets of the tape to adhere to the back of the stamp; putting large sized pieces makes the removal of the tape doable, but more problematic and difficult. I use small swatch square of tape place it on the album page, and then gently place stamp atop it, and then press to bond in place; voila the stamp is held well in place, and can be removed easily if needed..
This tape is also very useful if using a stamp album with double sided pages (like Minkus Global or Scott International). Why? Because hinged stamps on those page oft require glassine interleaving to prevent the stamps that are pressed against each other on opposing pages from getting caught on each other's perforations and causing damage when opening those pages. Using this tape, the stamps seem to encounter none of those problems. I have hardly had to touch any of my stash of glassine pages in the few years since switching to the tape system; it seems to hold the stamp more closely to the page.
I have used hinges on stamps since 1968, when I began collecting. In the past few years, I have had a great experience with the double-sided removable acid-free photo-safe tape. There are two types that seem to fit the bill for collectors:
Scotch 2002 Double Sided Removable Photo and Document Tape
Elmer's Double, Sided Removable Scrapbooking Tape
I know that I was fearful of this change, but the glue that activates when licking a standard hinge seems to me more permanently bonded to a stamp, and more damaging than this special tape could ever be.
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It has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread that Scotch 811 is acid-free. Back in March of last year, when Ralph brought up the subject of using this tape, I contacted 3M about it. This is the response I got:
"Dear Ted,
Thank you for contacting 3M, where we Apply Science to Life, Stationery and Office Supplies Division.
Scotch® Removable Tape 811 is not acid free nor is it archival but it is photo safe.
We cannot make any guarantees on how our products will perform on stamps because of the various components used to make stamps (inks, papers, glue, etc.). We do not do any testing on stamps. We would not recommend using Scotch® Removable Tape 811 to mount expensive stamps.
If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Contact Center
3M Center, Bldg. 225-3S-06
St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
1-800-328-6276
"
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and only time... as in many decades will be the ultimate test.
Back in 1972 when I was 14, my father had the brilliant idea that I should mount stamps with rubber cement. It appeared to work well. Peel the stamp off the page, and the rubber cement balled up and you could rub it off the stamp.
Well, 45 years later those stamps have big oil spots on them. Permanently ruined.
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WIR does research on archival issues related to art and photography. From their website:
"Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. (www.wilhelm-research.com) conducts research on the stability and preservation of traditional and digital color photographs and motion pictures."
This link will quickly download a PDF file of a 2003 book chapter that includes discussion of tapes. It mentions 3M 811 briefly.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwisrMTN3sHRAhWDxSYKHdhDBLsQFghPMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wilhelm-research.com%2Fpdf%2FHW_Book_11_of_20_HiRes_v1c.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGkUZPDQynLTiwgHZ-bOt2y5J6o1w&cad=rja
The tape discussion begins on page 381 and the 3M 811 tape is mentioned on the next page.
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I was searching for a way to remove Post-it note adhesive from some older Leuchtturn plastic stock pages. I had posted the notes on the clear plastic next to the stamps several years ago. Removing the notes today left sticky patches of adhesive. I quickly found online that vegetable oil was an excellent way to remove such residue from white boards. I tried that method on my stock pages and it quickly solved my problem. I then needed to then clean the remaining oil from the pages, but that was easily done with a pre-moistened cloth made for cleaning camera lenses. Isopropyl alcohol, I think.
In the process of researching this problem, I discovered a document at AIC Wiki titled "Hinge, Tape and Adhesive Removal." Since I haven't used hinges in the past 30 years, it's not really relevant to me, but I thought some of you might find it interesting. It is very long and most of it is not directly relevant to stamp collectors, but here are the link and a couple of excerpts.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Hinge,_Tape_and_Adhesive_Removal
"This pages discusses the removal of degrading or potentially damaging attachments such as tape, hinge material, adhesive residues, and associated staining with a reference list of tapes and adhesives; timeline and glossary."
The following is from the section titled, "Acrylic-Based Pressure-Sensitive Adhesives, Tapes and Hinges." Numerous other 3M tape products are listed.
Scotch Brand #811 Removable Magic Tape: 3M Co., transparent low tack tape
Carrier: cellulose acetate +
Adhesive: acrylic + (+ mfr.)
Comment: This tape has the same adhesive as all Post-It system products.
I hope this is helpful!
Tom
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Related to some of the previous comments.. newsprint after 50 years is dry, brittle dust. Penny blacks never look that way. What is it about the paper itself that deters degradation? Can't just be that it's thicker. Thanks in advance. Ernie
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Now, the bad news...
I looked at a collection two weeks ago that the owner used this tape to mount the stamps into the album. The tape comes off nicely. IT STILL LEAVES A SLIGHT RESIDUE. The stamps I piled up off one page were sticking together..... tossed it into the bin.
Please use hinges and mounts, folks; anything else, we will not buy it.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
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Interesting information.
The residue issue was discussed at length. The residue, which seems to occur some times but not others, and I cannot figure out why, rubs off immediately with just your finger. There is no reason to leave any residue on a stamp when you remove the hinge. Just rub it off.
There is no reason to dump your stamps...send them here!
Also, if you make your "hinge" 1 inch wide vs 1/4" your chances of leaving a residue are at least 4 times as big. I use the smallest possible amount of 811, and I transfer the tape twice, from the roll to a board where I cut it to size, and then to the stamp, peeling the tape off the board. Seems it may lessen any residue.
The information about it not being acid free has me concerned. When I talked to them years ago, they said it was! That is more on my mind than any small residue which (at this stage) has pulled off most easily.
Will have to look carefully at the oldest album I have where I started to use the 811 tape and report back. Thanks for the information.
rrr...
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"Related to some of the previous comments.. newsprint after 50 years is dry, brittle dust. Penny blacks never look that way. What is it about the paper itself that deters degradation? Can't just be that it's thicker. Thanks in advance. Ernie"
It's the type of paper. Cheap pulp paper with high acid content that was used for throw away printing like daily newspapers, magazines, paperback books... things that weren't supposed to last forever. There are stamps that were made from inferior paper, I have some from Eastern Europe early 20th century that have stained the stock book pages.
And still with the 811 tape, I'd be worried about long term effects. Back when I was a kid around 1972 my father had the idea that I should use rubber cement to mount stamps. It worked great! Peeled out of the album easily and balled up when you rubbed it. But, 20 years later the oils in the rubber cement stained right through the stamps as it dried out. Result- stamps destroyed.
Same with those self adhesive photo albums. Take a look at the pictures now. All striped on the back with glue residue. I see tons of postcards and even covers with those same marks today.
Another long term effect is seen on covers. I regularly see the glue from the back flap bled through to the front. Even on Artcraft first day covers. Aging is a bitch!
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Ralph, maybe Scotch (3M) changed the formula for the adhesive?
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All is possible.
Also, some time ago they changed the film, which became brittle and easy to break on the hinge fold. Then, it was corrected.
Again, I find it useful, especially for short term use.
I will be checking my older album (been using it 10 years) and will report on my findings.
I would never use it on expensive stamps, or stamps with porous paper, as it will occasionally adhere to the loose grain and pull at the backing, when you remove it swiftly.
The slight occasional residue rubs off with a stroke of the finger, so it is not a concern. The news on Acid free is disheartening, as I was assured by 3M at the time that it was acid free. I wish I could find the correspondence in my archives, but it probably got tossed out with my old computer.
So I will definitely double check, and take it into account.
rrr...
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All is possible.
Also, some time ago they changed the film, which became brittle and easy to break on the hinge fold. Then, it was corrected.
Again, I find it useful, especially for short term use.
I will be checking my older album (been using it 10 years) and will report on my findings.
I would never use it on expensive stamps, or stamps with porous paper, as it will occasionally adhere to the loose grain and pull at the backing, when you remove it swiftly.
The slight occasional residue rubs off with a stroke of the finger, so it is not a concern. The news on Acid free is disheartening, as I was assured by 3M engineering department at the time that it was acid free. I wish I could find the correspondence in my archives, but it probably got tossed out with my old computer, as it dates back over 5 years, and I don't keep mail, unless I have archived it separately and labeled it as important.
So I will definitely double check, and take it into account.
rrr...
---------------------
below, if anyone is interested, my correspondence with 3M about the deposit and brittleness.
By the way, they never send me replacement tapes, nor followed up! I dumped the remaining old defective rolls, and have not have the problem since. But I do "double-transfer" the tape, to minimize adhesive residue.
"Dear Ralph,
As we stated in our original reply, without having the product in hand, we are not able to say why is it performing the way it is.
We are sending out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product. At this time the product is on back order and will ship as soon as it is available.
Again, if you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Engagement Center
1-800-328.6276
www.3m.com
We value your feedback on this email response experience. Please take a moment to complete these 5 questions. Your responses wi ll let us know whether we are serving you well and how we may improve. Thank you for your continued support of 3M.
Click the link to complete a 5 question survey Test https://www4.3m.com/Groups/Irs/IrsSur.nsf/sd?Open&BU=962737034343XXBU6&ID=B41647869702A416E6F637XXID11
- If there is a need to reply to this response, please leave the subject line intact to assure correct routing. -
|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
I have received nothing, as of January 28, 2015.
Have you gotten a better response from your engineers about possible formulation, or tape material changes. has your manufacturing shifted to a different location?
Hoping for a response to your letter.
Ralph Anavy
420 Mission Bay Boulevard N.
unit #1503
San Francisco, CA 94158-2186
415 647-8093
-----Original Message-----
From: office
To: rrraphy
Sent: Wed, Dec 31, 2014 10:59 am
Subject: Re: Re: 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern #USLN-9SBLR9-962737034343
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for providing all the additional information.
Without having the product in hand, we are not able to say why is it performing the way it is.
We are sending out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product. Please allow a minimum of 7 - 10 business days to receive.
Again, if you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Engagement Center
1-800-328.6276
www.3m.com
We value your feedback on this email response experience. Please take a moment to complet e these 5 questions. Your responses will let us know whether we are serving you well and how we may improve. Thank you for your continued support of 3M.
Click the link to complete a 5 question survey https://www4.3m.com/Groups/Irs/IrsSur.nsf/sd?Open&BU=962737034343XXBU6&ID=B41647869702A416E6F637XXID11
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|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
Hi Carey:
Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon, now for convenience, as adequate supplies are not readily available or price is not competitive at Office Depot or Office Max.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature. If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
I have been promoting the use of 811 for temporary philatelic usage (against great resistance I must add, from prior collectors who had experienced severe issues with regular tape in the past, bleeding on and discoloring the stamps..even when not attached to them). 811 had performed well for me in the past. Not today.
I will have to issue a public warning and an alert in the philatelic press, if the residue issue is a continuing problem, as it seems to be.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll of what I now own.
Please tell me what 3M is going to do to assure that I can continue to promote further use of 811 in this fashion. I may need a formal pronouncement from 3M to publish in the specialized press.
Best regards, and Happy New Year!
Ralph Anavy
Ralph A. Anavy
420 Mission Bay Boulevard N.
unit #1503
San Francisco, CA 94158-2186
415 647-8093
Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need)
Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
PS: When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years. I will be checking my oldest usage now, to verify that there are no unseen problems lurking in the back.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, and structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
Very concerned
Ralph Anavy
-----Original Message-----
From: office
To: rrraphy
Sent: Wed, Dec 31, 2014 7:58 am
Subject: Re: 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern #USLN-9SBLR9-962737034343
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Please provide us with the following information and we will be happy to send out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product.
1. Your complete mailing address.
2. Phone number (in the event we have a problem).
3. The Cat. No. (Catalog Number) or the Bar Code number from the packaging or the exact name of the product.
4. How long ago was the product purchased?
5. The number of products that did not perform well.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Carey
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Center, Bldg. 225-3S-06
St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
1-800-328-6276www.scotchbrand.com1-800-395-1223www.post-it.com3M Workspace Solutions
1-800-332-7483www.3m.com/ergoMon.-Fri.8:00 - 4:30 (CST)
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|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves substantial residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
Customer Name = Ralph Anavy
"
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While I know all too well the damage that cellophane tape can do to stamps, I wonder if anyone else has tried using Scotch 811 Removable Tape as hinges? I learned about it from another member of the ISWSC (Int'l Society of Worldwide Stamp Collectors) who was using this to mount stamps for trading. It holds well, yet peels away easily & cleanly, with no residue. It's photo safe and acid-free (ISO Standard 18916, which tests samples for accelerated aging in a high-temp, high humidity environment). And you can use it on mint stamps, and it doesn't leave a mark on the back.
It's also useful for making temporary labels on stocksheets or glassines, since you can write on the surface.
While I don't think I'll use it to mount anything expensive, it's an interesting possible alternative to the non-peelable modern hinges that we have these days. If you've tried it, what do you think?
Best
BG
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02:34:50am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
From my dicussions with the APS Sales DIvision regarding finding several sales books in circuits that I received with stamps mounted with this type of tape, the answer is that the jury is still out on this. There have been no long-term tests made to figure out what the long-term effect is with this tape on stamps. Yes, the tape peels easily when it is fresh, but what happens after the tape has been on a stamp for a year? 5 years? 10 years?. What happens to a stamp after the tape has been removed? Will th3e stamp begin exhibiting toning, gum damage at a time in the future??? Those questions have yet to be answered.
For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
26 Jun 2014
04:15:52am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
" .... I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape. ...."
A statement that I suspect most long time collectors would willingly endorse.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I think I may do my own test with some inexpensive stamps. Compared to the gobs of sticky goo that I've been scraping off the backs of recent self-adhesives (I call it "stamp snot"), it seems pretty benign. Only time will tell, but it might take a long time to really tell for certain.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
OMG "stamp snot" I will never be able to look at self-adhesive gum the same way ever again! ROFLMBO!!!! funnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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01:07:58pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I have found ( thru circuit books ) that the tape seems to work fine with Mint stamps. However I have found that the tape ruins used stamps !!!! I guess that it peals off easily from the gum on the mint stamps.
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Approvals
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I have use it for over 10 years. I am 100% satisfied. It adds tremendous flexibility to aesthetic considerations for your collections, as you can easily move stamps, and display pages as you want.
While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!
I called 3M many years ago, before they had met the photo safe ISO Standard 18916, talked to their engineers and was assured that is was acid free, safe and harmless to stamps.
Since then they have met the ISO 18916 standards, which is quite exhaustive.
Still and quite understandably, I will not use it directly on a very expensive stamp (always in a mount), but I do use it regularly on all stamps in my collections, and also on all my SOR Approval books. This allows me to use SOR pre-printed pages rather than expensive uni-plates or , and it also minimizes handling of stamps and simplifies inventory management which is a prime source of errors.
I currently have a roll of 811 in a standard 3M tape dispenser and I dispense it just like I would with regular tape. If you are ecology minded, you can even reuse it! So I am not using regular tape any more on my desk to avoid any confusion, and this is just fine!
By the way, I buy it from Amazon, as it may be hard to find in office supply stores, and there are less photography stores around, so you won't find it easily.
I know that the stamp collector purists will always have doubts, certainly justified by past history (the stains left on stamps by early tape), but I for one am all for moving with technology and experimenting, and this technology seems to work perfectly, as far as my experience is concerned. Think about it, if technology had not moved ahead we would still be mounting stamps with glued paper hinges! This is just a step in our technological progress. What I would really like now, is for the glue technology used on 3M 811 tape to be used on stamp mounts, eliminating the wet and stick it approach, and also the single use limitation...plus no more torn pages if you ever want to move a mount! Anyone wants to start a new business?
rrr....
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"Michael: re For me, I avoid any and all stamps that have been "hinged" with any tape."
Unfortunately Michael, there is no scientific way to guarantee that any stamp that you get today has not been mounted using 3M 811 tape in its previous life.
While MNH should mean that, it does however refer to the fact that the Mint stamp has no hinge mark!
Any other assumption is wishful thinking, and even misleading.
rrr
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05:59:37pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
After seeing this thread on the use of the 811 scotch tape I thought I would give it a try since it would be so easy.
DO NOT USE IT!
I found that on older stamps that have softer paper than the new ones that the tape sticks too well to the fibers of the paper and will thin the stamp when trying to remove it. Also it does leave behind sticky residue on a lot of the stamps even if it does peel off. This I have found out after only about a week of having some mounted on pages.
I would imagine over time it will only get worse.
I will now go try to salvage what I can from over fifty pages of mounted stamps!
I learned the hard way again!
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06:32:45pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
One thing to remember for future. When trying something new, get some cheap, duplicate stamps and try it out on them first.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Well Jim, you were warned about the use of 811 on older porous paper stamps:
"While early versions of the tape left a (minor and occasional) slight residue after a few years...residue that rubbed off very easily, like a eraser residue, by rubbing the back with your finger, my experience with the latest version is 100% positive. It seem completely harmless, leaves no residue (tested for almost 5 years now) and peels easily. This works perfectly on gummed stamps, leaving no mark on MNH, so you can mount your MNH (or M stamps) with no degradation to the stamp, you can move them around, and I even use them on all my mounts now, so all my mounts are affixed using 811 tape!
Note that it is a bit more tricky on used stamps, especially on porous heavy paper grain used stamps....as it can adhere to the fiber if one does not pay attention, but 99% of used stamps cause no problem. The trick (you will learn it quickly after a few errors..lol) is to peel the Scotch 811 "hinge" by lifting gently from a corner and slowly peeling it off at a diagonal...works like a charm...as well as the old removable hinges..but leaving no mark!"
They are hinges, not mounts, so any comparison is relative. Also how you remove a hinge is a trick you learn, whatever hinge you use!
I have been using them for over 5 years, and I still swear by them...but each one his own! They are still for my mind good for temporary use. I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute.
As far as residue is concerned, I noticed occasional on and off issues with changes in 3M's formulation over time, but if there is any residue at all it is very minor, and just rubs off with a stroke of the fingers. Often wondered if it was temperature dependant? Don't know.
Also, the latest batch of 811 tape is significantly thinner than before, so I have had hinges break...but then you just peel off the broken piece! I also found out that you can easily re-use them.
So again, I think it is a personal choice. I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS. But I find them in use in collections and displays, and I am still a fan, using them for extended (now as much as 5 years) but temporary use. Ideally all my stamps will be in mounts.
rrr...
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2014
12:05:56am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
" .... I would never use hinges on any stamp...of any formulation... but I do make use of these as a substitute. ...."
I will crtainly agree that abjuring hinges is a personal decision.
On the other hand, I suspect that a significant majority of collectors have, over the last 150 years and even now, used and continues to use hinges.
Probably somewhat fewer use them on mint stamps as well.
I have used, and intend to continue to use, hinges on both used and unused as well as souvenir sheetlets and booklet panes from my penny black and Us 3s 1 & 2.
If some subsequent owner of my stamps is unhappy about that he can come to my graveside and complain.
So while mounts are popular with many collectors it is up to the modern user to decide for him or her self how to mount their stamps. Mounts are not the universal choice. In fact, every stamp dealer I can ever recall visiting has had a box of hinges available to sell. There have been a few dealers who (At least at theat moment.) did not have or did not carry mounts.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"I would really like a scientific and definitive pronouncement by the APS."
Any such "scientific and definitive pronouncement" about the advisability of using hinges would be useful only for the brands and specific batches that were tested. Any formulation of anything that is used today will probably be different tomorrow, and there simply is no way to know the very-long-term effect of any formulation of anything on any substance. We can only make guesses based on small samples and adequate testing of individual products.
A few years ago, a woman from the Vancouver Archives spoke to my stamp club about paper conservation. One of her messages was that all adhesives leave residue on paper, and that no one can know how that adhesive might eventually degrade the paper. Another significant point she made was that all paper becomes degraded over time, and there's nothing that can be done to preserve it over the very long haul.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Thanks for the info on 3M 811. Has anyone used this tape for mounting Hawid or Showguard style mounts instead of water activation? I was concerned with bulk on the album page, but would like to reuse mounts, especially for those definitive issues studies that require periodic album page changes.
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Regards,
Don
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Don,
I have the same problem: how to re-use Hawid and Showguard type mounts. In most cases there is enough adhesive remaining, especially if the bottom half had not been previously used. In the remaining cases, I'm experimenting with careful use of a glue stick. Tonight I will check it for acidity. I thought about double-stick take for about 1/10 of a second. After seeing the ugly brown residue from sticky tape after a few years, I will not put it anywhere my stamps!
The 811 tape probably wouldn't work on the mounts. It is not double sided, so you would need to create a double-plus thickness loop. Even then, I doubt the tape has the long-term griping strength we need. Think of the 811 tape as basically a long strip thin Post-It note. It is designed to be slightly tacky but then release easily.
The comment by jkm0644 above is accurate for older or damaged stamps. In my testing with some old stamps damaged by thins, tears, or hinge-removal abrasion, the 811 tape did pull off additional tiny bits. Again, think of a Post-It note: if that would cause damage, the 811 tape might as well. In no case did the 811 tape damage a sound stamp. Now my experience is not that deep or long. Fewer than 100 stamps with no long-term observations.
Steve
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Excellent info, Steve. I do appreciate it. I think that I will try to work with my mounts and less water activation. I am having to redo several album leaves and those mounts can get pricey. I plan to do this album properly and I've been working on my style for a few months. when I get the templates and stamps in place I will post a few pages.
I am greatly indebted to Larsdog for his work in putting his entire US collection on the Internets... He has given me a few ideas for my own path.
Happy New Year!
Don
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Approvals
re: Scotch 811 hinges
One further comment. It seems that 3M has changed the formulation. It uses thinner tape, which occasionally breaks when you bend it, hinge like, and there seems to be a new issue with residue.
While the breaking is an annoyance, the residue is a worry.
I compared older 811 to the newer one, bought from Amazon. The newer formulation is inferior. I am most concerned about the residue. I will be contacting 3M to clarify what is going on.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Ralph --
I'll be interested in learning what you hear back from them, if anything, about the reformulation.
Based on the discussion here, I did order a roll (through Staples, free delivery to the store). I'm still undecided about how I will ultimately use it, but I have started using it in place of conventional tape when I need to tape a glassine in an outgoing stamp purchase).
Please keep us posted as you learn more.
-- Dave
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Dave: I reported the perceived change to the 811 tape composition to 3M
Here is the on going correspondence (edited)
3M customer service, Office Products:
Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves a residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
---------------------------------
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
----------------------
My response: Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon now.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature.
If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll I now own.
Ralph
PS: Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need) Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for a very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
-------------------------
Dave: I will be sending samples for analysis, and I will report back.
By the way, I went and checked quickly on tape used by me, as far back as 5+ years ago...and there are no perceived problems.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Thanks for going to the trouble to post this, Ralph. I really appreciate it, and I imagine there would be others here, too, who appreciate it.
As I mentioned already, I am just using it for light packing purposes right now, where it does a good job, but I had been considering some additional philatelic uses, so I will await the next episode in this unfolding saga.
Thanks for your efforts on this!
-- Dave
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I only use 3M double-sided tape to mount illustrations I have printed for album and exhibit pages, and (sometimes) to mount Hawid mounts that have been used previously and are missing some of their gum. I too have noticed that the tape has changed. It does seem thinner, and a lot tougher to cut. I can't imagine that 3M would ever reveal its formulas, nor is it likely that the company uses the same formulas over time, or that they would ever provide useful responses to queries. I just don't trust large corporations.
Bob
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12:16:15pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I bet the answer to this is that the suppliers have outsourced the production to a third party and the quality control people don't have a handle on it yet.
I used to work in a warehouse for a major UK retailer ( which had better remain nameless -also the field in which it worked ).The company issued a spec and invited competitive tenders and always chose the cheapest ( naturally). There were occasions when the winning company's product was substandard, upon which the product had to be recalled from the stores ( at the tenderers expense) with great inconvenience to the company, and the customers.
My son is a senior procurement manager (buying both raw materials and manufactured product) for a company( which had also better remain nameless) whose products are not a million miles removed from some of the products sold by your supplier - and because of the wide inventory they carry, some products have to be bought in - and it should be noted that in the chemicals field some products ( and their components) are potentially hazardous. Quality control and testing of products is a major concern - and major activity. They appear to be on top of it, but it only needs a minor slip by someone.........
Malcolm
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Hi Everyone;
I worked as a Manufacturing Engineer for several years, and had to teach managers what
Quality Control was really all about.
Step one make sure you can produce something the same way twice in a row. I never make
my chili the same way twice, I like it that way, BUT I could never sell it as a product. Managers
never get this, that you can't make a change if the target is always moving.
When you achieve consistent results, even if wrong, then you can make a change to improve
a process. Don't try too much change until you see how well the changes affect quality. Finally
continue to add tweaks, and its is okay to find ways to make cheaper, without affecting quality.
Never have it made in China, unless your making a batch of chili. That nation's officials do not
like quality people checking up on them. I think it must be some kind of cultural pride thing or
something, or just communist snobbery.
@ Malcolm;
What you call outsourcing, we used to refer to as "Charlie Cheaper Disease".
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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05:25:51pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I am a retired 3M employee that worked in product development for more than 20 years and in technical service for a couple of years after that. I suspect the commenters that had been in manufacturing have hit the nail on the head. We always qualified more than one raw materials supplier because you never know when one may go out of business or be acquired by a competitor. Our qualification process was vigorous to assure that the specifications met the criteria of our target market.
Unfortunately, philately is not the target market for this product so the testing standards will never be set according to stamp collecting criteria. Unfortunately also, the philately market is undoubtedly too small to make a profit if the standards were tightened to meet the stringent criteria serious collectors want.
Product developers and tech service reps often have a push-pull relationship with marketers who would like to increase sales by increasing the number of way a product can be used and with manufacturing engineers who would like to increase profitability by finding ways to make a product less expensively. "Off-label" uses (uses the product was never designed for) are generally not discouraged but are at the users discretion and risk. If the market were large enough perhaps product claims for the new use would be documented, raw material criteria changed, and testing standards adjusted to meet the needs of that use. This can be quite expensive and is not often done if the consumer is willing to purchase the product and assume the risks without it.
I always felt good about the quality of the products I was involved with at 3M and 3M's business practices are well-respected. Not all manufacturers are as concerned with quality and backing up their claims as 3M is.
That being said, this has been just a small glimpse behind the curtain concerning how just about everything you have is produced.
Karen aka kehess, a nerdy lab-rat.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
06 Jan 2015
11:57:39am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I'm not sure if this is the same tape, but several years ago a member of my stamp club claimed he found a tape that can be used as a hinge. He used it extensively in his collection. He died a few years ago and left a portion of his collection to the club. I am finding that the stamps mounted using this tape do leave a residue. It is not bad and there is no staining. I was removing stamps (nothing valuable) from the pages and putting them in a pile. When I went to separate the stamps in the pile they were sticking together. It is almost like the stamps have a static charge. I was able to separate them easily without damage but they still have a cling. I don't know anyone who would want them for their collection. I have not tried soaking them yet to see if that removes it.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Bob, that slightly sticky residue after a long period of time that you describe sounds like what I experience with old Post-It notes, and further reinforces that analogy in my mind. So probably okay for short term use, but probably not for long term.
The short term use I have in mind is arranging stamps on a page before mounting them with hinges. The 811 tape will let me move the stamps around until I get them just right. It would even give me a month or two to do so in case I need to find a new stamp to fill a gap.
Steve
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed.
Bob
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"A reminder about my earlier post in this thread: A paper conservator from the Vancouver Archive, speaking to my stamp club, warned against using any adhesive materials, except for good quality stamp hinges, to mount stamps or covers. She said that all of them will leave residue which may not be obvious for decades. That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
Now, we just have to find 'good quality stamp hinges'
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01:09:50pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
While nothing will beat the good ol' Dennison hinges, I currently am using the Supersafe hinges by Vidiforms (the Showgard people). I have also used the Prinz hinges. From what I have seen, both brands are about the same quality. I try to use as little moisture as possible on small flap that gets attached to the stamp. They work about as good as it gets for today's philatelic world.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Prinz, Michael? Holy crap, I will NEVER touch another PRINZ hinge in my life... EVER! I had a bag of them in storage (along with some Supersafe's), never been opened, so you'd think even in storage they should be fine. I opened the bag, and start trying to attach the Prinz hinges...
Not a SINGLE hinge would adhere to ANY stamp. It was basically a "new" bag that had NO glue on any single hinge. I think they were only about a year old (but again, the bag was never opened), and basically a total loss of purchasing money.
I've sworn myself off of ever touching any more Prinz's in this lifetime.
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06:33:10pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Sounds like you may have had a defective batch. I never had any problems with the Prinz hinges, and I used them for many years.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Thanks, Michael, for posting that update! Very interesting!
---
For what it's worth, this discussion did make me aware of the tape. I bought some (had to special order it from Office Depot), and, while I haven't tried it directly with stamps, it is what I use when I need to use a little bit of tape to pack stamp orders for shipping. (To be clear, that's when tape is needed with the contents -- not, of course, for anything on the outside, where I don't think it would do its job very well.)
At least I have some peace of mind that, when the recipients opens a package, if they accidentally touch the stamps to the tape, it won't cause the kind of damage it would with regular tape. (And I don't use much -- usually none. But occasionally it's necessary.)
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Awhile back I received some stamps that had some odd hinges attached to them. They had a silicon feel to them and seemed to be the best "hinge" I have ever seen.
They peeled perfectly leaving little to no sign of hinging on mint stamps. They appeared to be cut and prefolded hinges but now I cannot wonder if they might be the 3M 811 tape. Has anyone else seen this type of "hinge". In my years of using many different types of tapes for many types of applications, no one beats 3M for dependability and ease of removal. If anyone can produce a good hinging media it is them.
As my last bag of Dennison's is about half gone I'm getting desperate to try something new so I'm going to try the 811.
As far as mounting mounts used or new, I always use brand name glue sticks. The glue on the backs of mounts is usually either to aggressive or not tacky enough. I have had no problems with glue sticks and mounts are easily removed without damaging the album page. Any residue left on the page is usually easily removed with an eraser.
As to MNH it means to me that the gum has no disturbance what sover except if it was part of the gumming process when manufactured or in the natural aging of the gum. Just thinking it means "Never Hinged" is misleading. I rather prefer the European term "Post Fresh"
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"I rather prefer the European term "Post Fresh""
lol, I hate that term.
To me it's pretty much meaningless, as I have bought some real crap at the post office counter in the past. Before I learned to check for such things, I was sold creased and wrinkled sheets, plate blocks or setenant blocks with partially separated perfs, stamps with disturbed gum, fingerprints(!) in the gum, dirty stamps, stamps that were stuck to the bottom or top of others, and much more recently self-adhesives with part of the backing paper ripped off.
To each their own. I guess the lesson is to read descriptions very carefully and ask lots of questions.
Chris
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07:06:51pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
These are NOT mounts. This is a roll of tape intended for use on archival material.
The APS is studying the 811 tape, and has recommended for the moment that sellers not use the tape to mount stamps with. I believe that it was Ralph who reported an inconsistency with the glue used on the tape that caused some damage.
Many APS sales books were beginning to appear with stamps mounted with the tape. There were several instances where I removed the tape, but the gum residue remained on the stamp. Since I do not generally collect used stamps, and I rarely buy a used stamp from an APS circuit, I cannot say how that tape affects used stamps. It has been several months now since I have seen an APS sales book where the stamps were mounted with the tape.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
About the 811 3M archival tape. Photo-safe to ISO Standard 18916. Here is again my experience with it:
There was ONE instance of what probably was a defective (or counterfiet) tape roll that behaved differently than before (over the last 5-10 years):
1. the tape was more brittle, and occasionally broke off on the fold, when you put it and removed it several time. This was no big deal, as you could always remove the broken piece, but it was a warning sign, because the 3M tape had never broken before.
2. This particular roll left a residue when removed. I alerted 3M, but they did not follow up with more testing, even after my reaching out to them several times. Their service department had indicated that they thought the roll might have been old (I bought it via Amazon), which would not be comforting, and is probably wrong!
3. My older tape, some of it in use for some 5-10 years, never had an issue other than those discussed before in the Discussion Board, so I think it was defective roll for whatever reason.
Now before everyone freaks out again about residue, let me say that even in this egregious case, it always rubbed off with just a finger motion, with no marks left behind. But it annoyed the hell out of me!
Now to be perfectly clear, every so often, based on the stamp paper you stick the tape to, or some other factor, a minor residue can be noted. It rubs off with a finger. I don't agonize over it any more...I just rub it off. I think it may be a hit or miss case, and I have not been able to tell why, nor how often it occurs. But it is a small and 100% reversible inconvenience that is less than the benefits of the tape for me.
I have used it for 5-10 years. Gone back to my oldest book I used it on, and everything is as it was before, with no residue, no toning no nothing. It was still possible to re-use the hinges! (by the way, reusing a hinge could lessen the potential for left over residue, I would think).
Now I would really like to see the APS issue the results of a formal study on the tape and its long term effects (over 10 years now for me). So I still think of it as a temporary method for stamp attachment....but that is a long "temporary".
But meanwhile, here is my advice, and these are all common sense:
1. Do not use it on used stamps with pourous paper, or be very cautious pulling the tape off.
2. Use less tape rather than more. My current hinges are 1/8 to 3/16th inch or 3-3.5 mm wide. When ready to use it, fold it in half and stick it as you would with a regular hinge. Less is better, it is more economical and it works just fine. Less also probably lessens any other potential adhesion problems.
3. Use the Kim's method for preparing hinges. (Paraphrasing, but maybe Kim can share again with us: put the tape down on a hard surface in strips 5 to 10 inch long and cut it vertically with an exacto knife in stips that you can peel off and use on the stamps when it is time). I suspect that this method may also pulls off any potential residue off the tape. For the math: strips of 5-10 inches, 3 strips side by side to cut in 3/8 inch wide hinges yields ~ 75-150 hinges!
4. Can be used with mounts. They have so far performed flawlessly for me with or without mounts. Note: when I use them on mounts, I make my hinges a bit wider, as it holds a heavier mount more securely in place.
5. Be conservative with your collection, and do not use it directly on the more expensive stuff (which should go in mounts anyway). And go back and test what you have done before, from time to time, for peace of mind.
I know any new technological terrain is always ground for detractors and doubters. But it was not too long ago that hinges were glue soaked strips of paper, and bad non-removable hinges were a real problem more recently...so my mantra is to move with the technological times, always experiment scientifically, conservatively, and be swayed by the evidence.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I admit, I have been purposely avoiding posting in this thread. Bad experience in a thread elsewhere, so I pretty much kept discussions private. This thread seems to be able to maintain a good level of constructive discussion regarding 811, and not unrelated hinge/mount disasters of other products. I'm especially impressed that many of the comments have been made by collectors actually testing the product or interested in knowing more, rather than comments by pre-biased collectors who have never tried it or know little about it.
Unlike the others, I have used 811 VERY sparingly. I'm still busy sorting most of my stamps and end up still putting them in stockbooks/stockpages and hingeless albums.
I do not use 811 on porous paper. I don't recommend it for porous paper. But frankly, you will run into the same problem peeling a Dennison hinge off porous paper -- you usually don't notice because conventional hinges are not really that transparent and you don't see the paper fibers unless you examine it close with a magnifier. I don't recommend testing this, but I would argue that you probably take off a lot more paper fibers peeling a Dennison hinge off porous paper than using 811 -- not that either is acceptable.
In my limited experience, I have not had any problem with residue. I don't think I have a bad eye when it comes to faults, but I've never been able to notice any residue whatsoever. This could be related to the way I make my 811 hinges -- I put them lengthwise halfway on strips of cardstock (as a hinge holder) and then overlay the about 5 strips on top of each other, and then use a paper cutter to cut off stacks of hinges. I can make hundreds of hinges very quickly in this manner. In these stacks, the tape has already "stuck" to something (either the cardstock holder or another hinge in the stack). I wouldn't be surprised if that had the effect of "cleaning" any potential residue from the adhesive side of the tape.
My only real complaint about 811, is that the backing is difficult to fold. That is why I use the cardstock strips as holders, since I can also use it to press a "bend" in the hinge as I apply it to the stamp.
I know a lot of readers may be shocked that we are using "tape". Don't think of it as "tape", because it's not conventional tape as we all know it. Also, not all adhesives were made equal. It's like saying all stamps are the same, and if you have one then you know about all the other stamps. 3M has a list of tens of thousands of adhesives, many of which are especially designed to be inert for specific conditions or specific material contacts. During my years in the research lab, it was my experience that quality control of commercial 3M products was exceptional.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"That makes sense to me: any material which sticks to anything is likely to leave remnants of itself when it's removed."
What Bob said is correct. ALL adhesives will leave a residue. And certainly at microscopic level (we used 3M adhesives in our Electron Microscope studies). If any 811 residue bothers you, you probably should not use this product (for your own peace of mind -- you should enjoy your collection, not worry about it).
There is actually a ton of residue on your stamps, some you can see, some you cannot. The main questions are:
1) is the residue relatively inert
2) is it sufficiently visible to bother you
For instance, fingerprints bother me. Most people don't see them, but I do. Relatively speaking, they are not inert, but the damage they cause is not noticeable by most people. Because most people don't see them, it doesn't bother them. Dust fibers don't bother me, because they are relatively inert and because I know I can remove them easily if I wanted to. The latter is my attitude toward any 811 residue. But as I mentioned in my lengthy post above, I have not run into residue problems so far.
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09:21:49pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
I have been using Scotch 2002 Double Sided Removable Photo and Document Tape on my stamps for four years now; this tape is photo-safe AND acid free. Best move I ever made. (The tape meets key high quality standards for sensitive items like art material and photos: International Standardization Organization ISO #18916 (2007) which deals with stability on usage on photographic images and ASTM #D-4236 -- Standard Practice for Labeling Art Materials).
After fours years of use: I can remove stamps that are placed with this tape with no problem. Try removing a standard hinge from a used stamp without an damage -- not easy to do. This removes like a breeze. The only caveat I would note is that one must use small/tiny snippets of the tape to adhere to the back of the stamp; putting large sized pieces makes the removal of the tape doable, but more problematic and difficult. I use small swatch square of tape place it on the album page, and then gently place stamp atop it, and then press to bond in place; voila the stamp is held well in place, and can be removed easily if needed..
This tape is also very useful if using a stamp album with double sided pages (like Minkus Global or Scott International). Why? Because hinged stamps on those page oft require glassine interleaving to prevent the stamps that are pressed against each other on opposing pages from getting caught on each other's perforations and causing damage when opening those pages. Using this tape, the stamps seem to encounter none of those problems. I have hardly had to touch any of my stash of glassine pages in the few years since switching to the tape system; it seems to hold the stamp more closely to the page.
I have used hinges on stamps since 1968, when I began collecting. In the past few years, I have had a great experience with the double-sided removable acid-free photo-safe tape. There are two types that seem to fit the bill for collectors:
Scotch 2002 Double Sided Removable Photo and Document Tape
Elmer's Double, Sided Removable Scrapbooking Tape
I know that I was fearful of this change, but the glue that activates when licking a standard hinge seems to me more permanently bonded to a stamp, and more damaging than this special tape could ever be.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
It has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread that Scotch 811 is acid-free. Back in March of last year, when Ralph brought up the subject of using this tape, I contacted 3M about it. This is the response I got:
"Dear Ted,
Thank you for contacting 3M, where we Apply Science to Life, Stationery and Office Supplies Division.
Scotch® Removable Tape 811 is not acid free nor is it archival but it is photo safe.
We cannot make any guarantees on how our products will perform on stamps because of the various components used to make stamps (inks, papers, glue, etc.). We do not do any testing on stamps. We would not recommend using Scotch® Removable Tape 811 to mount expensive stamps.
If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Contact Center
3M Center, Bldg. 225-3S-06
St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
1-800-328-6276
"
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
and only time... as in many decades will be the ultimate test.
Back in 1972 when I was 14, my father had the brilliant idea that I should mount stamps with rubber cement. It appeared to work well. Peel the stamp off the page, and the rubber cement balled up and you could rub it off the stamp.
Well, 45 years later those stamps have big oil spots on them. Permanently ruined.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
WIR does research on archival issues related to art and photography. From their website:
"Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. (www.wilhelm-research.com) conducts research on the stability and preservation of traditional and digital color photographs and motion pictures."
This link will quickly download a PDF file of a 2003 book chapter that includes discussion of tapes. It mentions 3M 811 briefly.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwisrMTN3sHRAhWDxSYKHdhDBLsQFghPMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wilhelm-research.com%2Fpdf%2FHW_Book_11_of_20_HiRes_v1c.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGkUZPDQynLTiwgHZ-bOt2y5J6o1w&cad=rja
The tape discussion begins on page 381 and the 3M 811 tape is mentioned on the next page.
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
I was searching for a way to remove Post-it note adhesive from some older Leuchtturn plastic stock pages. I had posted the notes on the clear plastic next to the stamps several years ago. Removing the notes today left sticky patches of adhesive. I quickly found online that vegetable oil was an excellent way to remove such residue from white boards. I tried that method on my stock pages and it quickly solved my problem. I then needed to then clean the remaining oil from the pages, but that was easily done with a pre-moistened cloth made for cleaning camera lenses. Isopropyl alcohol, I think.
In the process of researching this problem, I discovered a document at AIC Wiki titled "Hinge, Tape and Adhesive Removal." Since I haven't used hinges in the past 30 years, it's not really relevant to me, but I thought some of you might find it interesting. It is very long and most of it is not directly relevant to stamp collectors, but here are the link and a couple of excerpts.
http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/Hinge,_Tape_and_Adhesive_Removal
"This pages discusses the removal of degrading or potentially damaging attachments such as tape, hinge material, adhesive residues, and associated staining with a reference list of tapes and adhesives; timeline and glossary."
The following is from the section titled, "Acrylic-Based Pressure-Sensitive Adhesives, Tapes and Hinges." Numerous other 3M tape products are listed.
Scotch Brand #811 Removable Magic Tape: 3M Co., transparent low tack tape
Carrier: cellulose acetate +
Adhesive: acrylic + (+ mfr.)
Comment: This tape has the same adhesive as all Post-It system products.
I hope this is helpful!
Tom
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01:43:26am
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Related to some of the previous comments.. newsprint after 50 years is dry, brittle dust. Penny blacks never look that way. What is it about the paper itself that deters degradation? Can't just be that it's thicker. Thanks in advance. Ernie
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
Now, the bad news...
I looked at a collection two weeks ago that the owner used this tape to mount the stamps into the album. The tape comes off nicely. IT STILL LEAVES A SLIGHT RESIDUE. The stamps I piled up off one page were sticking together..... tossed it into the bin.
Please use hinges and mounts, folks; anything else, we will not buy it.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
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Approvals
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Interesting information.
The residue issue was discussed at length. The residue, which seems to occur some times but not others, and I cannot figure out why, rubs off immediately with just your finger. There is no reason to leave any residue on a stamp when you remove the hinge. Just rub it off.
There is no reason to dump your stamps...send them here!
Also, if you make your "hinge" 1 inch wide vs 1/4" your chances of leaving a residue are at least 4 times as big. I use the smallest possible amount of 811, and I transfer the tape twice, from the roll to a board where I cut it to size, and then to the stamp, peeling the tape off the board. Seems it may lessen any residue.
The information about it not being acid free has me concerned. When I talked to them years ago, they said it was! That is more on my mind than any small residue which (at this stage) has pulled off most easily.
Will have to look carefully at the oldest album I have where I started to use the 811 tape and report back. Thanks for the information.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
"Related to some of the previous comments.. newsprint after 50 years is dry, brittle dust. Penny blacks never look that way. What is it about the paper itself that deters degradation? Can't just be that it's thicker. Thanks in advance. Ernie"
It's the type of paper. Cheap pulp paper with high acid content that was used for throw away printing like daily newspapers, magazines, paperback books... things that weren't supposed to last forever. There are stamps that were made from inferior paper, I have some from Eastern Europe early 20th century that have stained the stock book pages.
And still with the 811 tape, I'd be worried about long term effects. Back when I was a kid around 1972 my father had the idea that I should use rubber cement to mount stamps. It worked great! Peeled out of the album easily and balled up when you rubbed it. But, 20 years later the oils in the rubber cement stained right through the stamps as it dried out. Result- stamps destroyed.
Same with those self adhesive photo albums. Take a look at the pictures now. All striped on the back with glue residue. I see tons of postcards and even covers with those same marks today.
Another long term effect is seen on covers. I regularly see the glue from the back flap bled through to the front. Even on Artcraft first day covers. Aging is a bitch!
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12:42:03pm
re: Scotch 811 hinges
Ralph, maybe Scotch (3M) changed the formula for the adhesive?
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
All is possible.
Also, some time ago they changed the film, which became brittle and easy to break on the hinge fold. Then, it was corrected.
Again, I find it useful, especially for short term use.
I will be checking my older album (been using it 10 years) and will report on my findings.
I would never use it on expensive stamps, or stamps with porous paper, as it will occasionally adhere to the loose grain and pull at the backing, when you remove it swiftly.
The slight occasional residue rubs off with a stroke of the finger, so it is not a concern. The news on Acid free is disheartening, as I was assured by 3M at the time that it was acid free. I wish I could find the correspondence in my archives, but it probably got tossed out with my old computer.
So I will definitely double check, and take it into account.
rrr...
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re: Scotch 811 hinges
All is possible.
Also, some time ago they changed the film, which became brittle and easy to break on the hinge fold. Then, it was corrected.
Again, I find it useful, especially for short term use.
I will be checking my older album (been using it 10 years) and will report on my findings.
I would never use it on expensive stamps, or stamps with porous paper, as it will occasionally adhere to the loose grain and pull at the backing, when you remove it swiftly.
The slight occasional residue rubs off with a stroke of the finger, so it is not a concern. The news on Acid free is disheartening, as I was assured by 3M engineering department at the time that it was acid free. I wish I could find the correspondence in my archives, but it probably got tossed out with my old computer, as it dates back over 5 years, and I don't keep mail, unless I have archived it separately and labeled it as important.
So I will definitely double check, and take it into account.
rrr...
---------------------
below, if anyone is interested, my correspondence with 3M about the deposit and brittleness.
By the way, they never send me replacement tapes, nor followed up! I dumped the remaining old defective rolls, and have not have the problem since. But I do "double-transfer" the tape, to minimize adhesive residue.
"Dear Ralph,
As we stated in our original reply, without having the product in hand, we are not able to say why is it performing the way it is.
We are sending out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product. At this time the product is on back order and will ship as soon as it is available.
Again, if you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Engagement Center
1-800-328.6276
www.3m.com
We value your feedback on this email response experience. Please take a moment to complete these 5 questions. Your responses wi ll let us know whether we are serving you well and how we may improve. Thank you for your continued support of 3M.
Click the link to complete a 5 question survey Test https://www4.3m.com/Groups/Irs/IrsSur.nsf/sd?Open&BU=962737034343XXBU6&ID=B41647869702A416E6F637XXID11
- If there is a need to reply to this response, please leave the subject line intact to assure correct routing. -
|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
I have received nothing, as of January 28, 2015.
Have you gotten a better response from your engineers about possible formulation, or tape material changes. has your manufacturing shifted to a different location?
Hoping for a response to your letter.
Ralph Anavy
420 Mission Bay Boulevard N.
unit #1503
San Francisco, CA 94158-2186
415 647-8093
-----Original Message-----
From: office
To: rrraphy
Sent: Wed, Dec 31, 2014 10:59 am
Subject: Re: Re: 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern #USLN-9SBLR9-962737034343
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for providing all the additional information.
Without having the product in hand, we are not able to say why is it performing the way it is.
We are sending out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product. Please allow a minimum of 7 - 10 business days to receive.
Again, if you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Kathy
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Customer Engagement Center
1-800-328.6276
www.3m.com
We value your feedback on this email response experience. Please take a moment to complet e these 5 questions. Your responses will let us know whether we are serving you well and how we may improve. Thank you for your continued support of 3M.
Click the link to complete a 5 question survey https://www4.3m.com/Groups/Irs/IrsSur.nsf/sd?Open&BU=962737034343XXBU6&ID=B41647869702A416E6F637XXID11
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|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
Hi Carey:
Thanks for your prompt response.
I use the 811 extensively, in temporary and long term philatelic usage. I buy it 2-packs at a time or more (usually I will buy 4 rolls at a time) from Amazon, now for convenience, as adequate supplies are not readily available or price is not competitive at Office Depot or Office Max.
The latest unopened rolls purchased have the following code: 5113520968
I can assure you that the tape is different than what I have been using satisfactorily for years.
1: It breaks. I usually bend a small piece to use as a hinge to attach stamps to pages.
While this is not critical, as I can still remove the broken piece, it is an annoyance.
I am guessing the tape is thinner and of a different formulation.
2. It leaves a residue. This is a MAJOR issue. This was not the case before (except very minor). This is not tied to temperature. If it is "photo Safe" I presume this is also a major issue for photographers, as stacked photos will now stick to one another, and this may need to be tested by your lab. For stamps this is critical.
I have been promoting the use of 811 for temporary philatelic usage (against great resistance I must add, from prior collectors who had experienced severe issues with regular tape in the past, bleeding on and discoloring the stamps..even when not attached to them). 811 had performed well for me in the past. Not today.
I will have to issue a public warning and an alert in the philatelic press, if the residue issue is a continuing problem, as it seems to be.
Unless Amazon is selling counterfeit tape, I cannot believe that it is the same product I have use for years. Quite frankly, I can assure you that it feels and act differently. The tape breaking alone is strange by itself. The increased residue is critical.
I can easily remove some of the tape I used 5 years ago and send it to your lab for comparative testing, and I can send you what is left of the roll of what I now own.
Please tell me what 3M is going to do to assure that I can continue to promote further use of 811 in this fashion. I may need a formal pronouncement from 3M to publish in the specialized press.
Best regards, and Happy New Year!
Ralph Anavy
Ralph A. Anavy
420 Mission Bay Boulevard N.
unit #1503
San Francisco, CA 94158-2186
415 647-8093
Latest batch purchased from Amazon: 4 rolls, probably just a few months ago. (can check exact date if you need)
Label number on remaining the two pack unopened rolls (811-2pk): 51135 20968
PS: When I had first started using 811 for this type of usage, I talked to your technical and engineering staff, and was assured that it was acid free, safe, and while it had not been tested for very long time, they felt it was safe to use on stamps. I have been using it and advising others to use it as well, now for more than 5 years. I will be checking my oldest usage now, to verify that there are no unseen problems lurking in the back.
I am most concerned about the permanent loss of valuable philatelic material, should these problems be endemic, and structural or chemical, rather than a one time accident.
Very concerned
Ralph Anavy
-----Original Message-----
From: office
To: rrraphy
Sent: Wed, Dec 31, 2014 7:58 am
Subject: Re: 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern #USLN-9SBLR9-962737034343
Dear Ralph,
Thank you for contacting 3M, the innovation company, Stationery & Office Supplies Division.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Without having the product in hand, it is difficult to explain the reason why this might be happening.
We have not changed our formulation on the 811 Tape. If you are purchasing from Amazon it might be old tape.
Please provide us with the following information and we will be happy to send out replacement product, as well as a postage paid return address label for the return of the problematic product.
1. Your complete mailing address.
2. Phone number (in the event we have a problem).
3. The Cat. No. (Catalog Number) or the Bar Code number from the packaging or the exact name of the product.
4. How long ago was the product purchased?
5. The number of products that did not perform well.
Your comments and observations about the product will be forwarded to both our marketing and manufacturing groups. We value your continued loyalty to 3M Products.
If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact us directly at 1-800-328-6276. We are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 - 4:30 CT.
Regards,
Carey
3M Stationery and Office Supplies Division
3M Center, Bldg. 225-3S-06
St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
1-800-328-6276www.scotchbrand.com1-800-395-1223www.post-it.com3M Workspace Solutions
1-800-332-7483www.3m.com/ergoMon.-Fri.8:00 - 4:30 (CST)
We value your feedback on this email response experience. Please take a moment to complete these 5 questions. Your responses will let us know whether we are serving you well and how we may improve. Thank you for your continued support of 3M.
Click the link to complete a 5 question survey https://www4.3m.com/Groups/Irs/IrsSur.nsf/sd?Open&BU=962737034343XXBU6&ID=341627569702341627576656C6XXID13 - If there is a need to reply to this response, please leave the subject line intact to assure correct routing. -
|-----------Original Message Follows------------|
Subject = 3M 811 Scotch tape Great concern
Message = You seem to have changed your formulation. The newer tape is thinner, breaks when used, and of greatest concern for my usage, it now leaves substantial residue when removed. This is unacceptable, a potentially harmful effect and I need confirmation of what is going on, and what you plan to do about it.
I used to purchase my tape at Office depot. I now purchase it from Amazon.
Customer Name = Ralph Anavy
"
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