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General Philatelic/Identify This? : France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

 

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TuskenRaider
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01 Sep 2014
09:10:41pm
Hi everyone;

Here is the scan of the French stamp in question (the center one):


Image Not Found


The stamps you see are from 4,500 French stamps, 16 of which were Type A15 1 centime Type II, Black on blueish tinted paper. I picked the bluest six from the sixteen to use as a comparison. I'll probably choose the one just to the left center to mount in my album as #86, The center one I'll mount in the space for #87, because I'll probably never afford the real one.

It's probably just a dark version of #86, as classic French stamps are notorious for color variations.

All you beginners out there let this be a lesson. If you suddenly think you have a very rare stamp, you probably do not. For years I swore I had Switzerland #47 MNH @ $1,600.00 plus a premium for MNH, which would probably add another thousand. As it turns out it is actually #66, $1.80. Not only did I misidentify the paper as 'White Wove' instead of Granite paper, I mis-identified the ink color as Green instead of Grey!!

Keep on stampin
Ken Tall Pines

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

01 Sep 2014
09:45:08pm

Approvals
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Image Not Found
these are the Y&T references to color. (and 3 of mine below...do they match?
rrr...
here is a better scan..or is it? my scanner seems out of focus!
Image Not Found

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
michael78651

01 Sep 2014
10:57:14pm
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

No, they do not match.

Prussian Blue is a dark blue that contains iron pigments. Cobalt blue is a dark blue, but brighter than Prussian Blue, due to the alumina pigment contained in the ink. Yours is the cobalt blue (my opinion). But yes, you can find shades that look similar to each other.

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TuskenRaider
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01 Sep 2014
11:20:11pm
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Hi everyone;

Just a quick question, how many color varieties do you think there are for #86? Also how many does Yverts list as known colors for that same stamp #86?
This reminds me of the colors listed in SG for Great Britain George V, that Scott doesn't list at all!

Keep on stampin
Ken Tall Pines

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

02 Sep 2014
12:54:38am

Approvals
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

The Y & T listing above states 4 colors
Y&T 83 black on light blue (azuré)
Y&T 83a black on blue
Y&T 83b black on grey
Y&T 83c Black on cobalt blue

and Y&T 84 black on Prussian blue
The big id difficulty is between 83c and 84.

Michael...is there an easy way of telling Prussian from Cobalt blue, when the colors shades are virtually alike.
Iron pigment...does it make it magneticNail Biting? Laughing
rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
jkjblue
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02 Sep 2014
10:09:46pm
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Image Not Found

I've enjoyed the pics and opinions, and yes, I have a rather blue specimen.

Cobalt or Prussian - Ya, right! Laughing -, or something else?

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bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
Rhinelander
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Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society

04 Sep 2014
08:59:53am
re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

jkjblue,

As per Kohl's Briefmarkenhandbuch, the prussian blue (also named 'indigo') paper variety was first reported in L'Ami des Timbres in February 1882 on stamps all bearing cancellations from October 1880. The October 1880 issue date is also reported in Michel. Your January 1880 copy hence cannot be that variety.

Arno

P.S.
Here is a picture of the 'real deal' from Siegel Auctions:

Image Not Found


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Author/Postings
Members Picture
TuskenRaider

01 Sep 2014
09:10:41pm

Hi everyone;

Here is the scan of the French stamp in question (the center one):


Image Not Found


The stamps you see are from 4,500 French stamps, 16 of which were Type A15 1 centime Type II, Black on blueish tinted paper. I picked the bluest six from the sixteen to use as a comparison. I'll probably choose the one just to the left center to mount in my album as #86, The center one I'll mount in the space for #87, because I'll probably never afford the real one.

It's probably just a dark version of #86, as classic French stamps are notorious for color variations.

All you beginners out there let this be a lesson. If you suddenly think you have a very rare stamp, you probably do not. For years I swore I had Switzerland #47 MNH @ $1,600.00 plus a premium for MNH, which would probably add another thousand. As it turns out it is actually #66, $1.80. Not only did I misidentify the paper as 'White Wove' instead of Granite paper, I mis-identified the ink color as Green instead of Grey!!

Keep on stampin
Ken Tall Pines

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
01 Sep 2014
09:45:08pm

Approvals

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Image Not Found
these are the Y&T references to color. (and 3 of mine below...do they match?
rrr...
here is a better scan..or is it? my scanner seems out of focus!
Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
michael78651

01 Sep 2014
10:57:14pm

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

No, they do not match.

Prussian Blue is a dark blue that contains iron pigments. Cobalt blue is a dark blue, but brighter than Prussian Blue, due to the alumina pigment contained in the ink. Yours is the cobalt blue (my opinion). But yes, you can find shades that look similar to each other.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
TuskenRaider

01 Sep 2014
11:20:11pm

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Hi everyone;

Just a quick question, how many color varieties do you think there are for #86? Also how many does Yverts list as known colors for that same stamp #86?
This reminds me of the colors listed in SG for Great Britain George V, that Scott doesn't list at all!

Keep on stampin
Ken Tall Pines

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
02 Sep 2014
12:54:38am

Approvals

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

The Y & T listing above states 4 colors
Y&T 83 black on light blue (azuré)
Y&T 83a black on blue
Y&T 83b black on grey
Y&T 83c Black on cobalt blue

and Y&T 84 black on Prussian blue
The big id difficulty is between 83c and 84.

Michael...is there an easy way of telling Prussian from Cobalt blue, when the colors shades are virtually alike.
Iron pigment...does it make it magneticNail Biting? Laughing
rrr...

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
jkjblue

02 Sep 2014
10:09:46pm

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

Image Not Found

I've enjoyed the pics and opinions, and yes, I have a rather blue specimen.

Cobalt or Prussian - Ya, right! Laughing -, or something else?

Like
Login to Like
this post

bigblue1840-1940.blo ...
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
04 Sep 2014
08:59:53am

re: France Peace & Commerce 1centime Black on Prussian Blue? #86 or 87?

jkjblue,

As per Kohl's Briefmarkenhandbuch, the prussian blue (also named 'indigo') paper variety was first reported in L'Ami des Timbres in February 1882 on stamps all bearing cancellations from October 1880. The October 1880 issue date is also reported in Michel. Your January 1880 copy hence cannot be that variety.

Arno

P.S.
Here is a picture of the 'real deal' from Siegel Auctions:

Image Not Found


Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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