Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Firstly, it may help if you could scan the back of the stamp, as the words you've mentioned may be misleading.
Based on my scant knowledge of this area; you appear to have a "Bezirkshandstempel" (District hand stamp) issue. The whole subject is pretty complicated.
These were issued during the currency reform period, of the post war Allied Occupation of Germany. This was due to the devaluation of the "Ostmark" (Mark Deutsche Notenbank) relative to the earlier Reichsmark.
They were produced for those districts affected in the occupied zones; each having one or 2 numbers and district name in the overprint, e.g. 27 Leipzig; 16 Ilmenau; 20 Dassau 1; 41 Crimmitschau; 27 Chemnitz 1, 14 Dresden 24 (the 24 denotes the district office number).
I cannot decipher yours.
From what I can glean, these overprinted stamps retained the face value as printed on the actual stamp, only between 24th June to 10th July 1948. Outside this period, they were 'invalidated', and postage due (Nachgebühr) charged. They could be used in combination with un-overprinted stamps; but these only retained 1/10 (one tenth) of their face value.
So the postal clerks had to add the value of each un-overprinted stamp, then divide by ten , then add the value of the overprinted stamp, then check the going rate. If the supplied stamps were under this rate, the appropriate charge (I think it was 150% of normal postage) was added as postage due.
Covers franked with these stamps must have caused havoc to the postal system:
You could have combinations of un-overprinted and overprinted stamps (one or more valid and one or more invalid. Note that the un-overprinted stamps were themselves invalidated 31 July. Or you could have all invalid.
Add to this the fact that certain issues were invalidated by individual zones (British and American zones, French Zone, Soviet Zone and West Berlin), when mail crossed from East to West Germany (and vice versa). You could also find combinations of these on the same envelope.
The Soviet Zone (Sowjetische Besatzungs Zone) also had their own overprinted stamps. Once again these had certain dates of valid use.
If your stamp does not have gum, it is remotely possible that it was used out of period and invalidated. Usually, such a stamp would have been 'isolated'; it would not have been cancelled. The stamp would have had a blue pencil mark applied around it on the envelope; an amount in pfennigs in blue, denoting the 'postage due' written on the cover and a rectangular cachet applied, usually in red stating Nachgebühr.
One last point regarding your copy, or at least the un-overprinted version, I believe this is part of one issue that is referred to as 'trizone'. I can't be at all sure but it's name suggests to me that such issues were supposedly valid in three of the zones I've mentioned. There are also bizones.
I bet you wish you'd never asked.
Please note my amendment in blue. I had worded this badly.
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No, i am sure she appreciates any information...here is a scan of the back of the stamp it is a bit obscure so i was not sure of the spelling ! Thank you for your reply .
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This may be a dealers authentication mark. This seems to be a very 'German' habit. It drives me up the wall, particularly when Queen Victoria mint stamps were marked this way in the old days.
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The big problem with these locals is that there are so many with forged overprints.
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Your stamp identification is: 14 Löbau (Type a). District 14 is Dresden (East Saxony). The person who looked at this considered that this is probably genuine; "nice bleed-through".
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Thank you, Ningpo and Michael for your help. Yes, Ningpo, that's the stamp! Still don't know how to find it in the Michel cat. have to learn that! And I ent on the German Ebay and under Loebau there is a cover with the stamp- the rose version. Thanks ! Jopie
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These district overprints are listed in the standard Michel Germany catalog as the first general issue (Michel No. 166ff, 1948) for the Soviet occupation zone, which precedes the GDR listing. In the Michel standard catalog, only the value for the cheapest variety of all ten districts is given. In my 2006/7 catalog the cat value of the 12Pf stamp (#170) with any district overprint is EUR 1.50 (2.50) in MH (MNH) condition.
The Michel Germany specialized catalog has a detailed sixteen page listing of all known towns in each district and provides upcharges to be added to the listed minimum values. There is no additional value for "14 Löbau" relative to the minimum value (Michel Germany Specialized 2010).
The mark is from Volkmar Petzold, a known expert for the Bezirksaufdrucke. He joined BPP after the fall of the wall. Hence, you find 'Petzold BPP' as well as the prior Petzold (from GDR times) in the market. You may note that the positioning of the expert mark follows the German convention mentioned in Bruce's parallel thread.
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This should help add some additional information regarding the Russian local overprints on German stamps following World War II.
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Handoverprint Stamps of Post WWII – After WWII during the Allied occupation period the occupying countries formed the Allied Control Commission which issued postage stamps valid in all four occupied zones of Germany and Berlin. After the Monetary reform of 21 June 1948 , the Soviet Military Administration (SMA) broke away from the allies and established its own monetary reform invalidating stamps previously jointly used. Soviet produced stamps, however, were not issued until July 3. Therefore the SMA authorized use of the remaining stocks of pfennig valued stamps issued under the joint administration at 1/10th of face value. Each post office was required to “overprint†these stamps with a distinct stamp. These “overprinted†stamps were valid until 31 July 1948. These stamps were “overprinted†with the cancelling devices of each post office thereby creating a huge variety of different overprints. There are literally thousands of distinctly different stamps created by the many post offices in the Soviet Zone and East Berlin. It should be noted that there are many, many stamps existing with “fake†overprints and these stamps should be purchased only if they have been properly expertized. (I would estimate that at least 95% of these issues which are found and are not expertized are in fact forgeries.)
also see http://www.philatelicfoundation.org/
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here are grosvenor results - ww2 forgeries
http://www.grosvenorauctions.com/dyn_pages/historic_sale_summary.php?show_h_sale_no=40&page=15
more...\
http://www.stamp-collecting-world.com/alliedoccupation.html
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If many of these stamps are minimum value why would anyone want to forge them?
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Hi Malcolm,
The basic stamps were no longer valid in the Russian Zone and were available in large numbers to forgers.
Adding say ten forged overprints to each of twenty basic stamps would give a forger 200 new stamps to sell to collectors or to the stamp trade.
Printing or overprinting complete sheets can quickly give quantities that give the forger a good return on his time.
A lot of money must have been over the years by forging low value stamps especially those from exotic locations, e.g. the Russian Civil War Northern Army stamps, the Western Army eagles and many issues from Crete.
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
Firstly, it may help if you could scan the back of the stamp, as the words you've mentioned may be misleading.
Based on my scant knowledge of this area; you appear to have a "Bezirkshandstempel" (District hand stamp) issue. The whole subject is pretty complicated.
These were issued during the currency reform period, of the post war Allied Occupation of Germany. This was due to the devaluation of the "Ostmark" (Mark Deutsche Notenbank) relative to the earlier Reichsmark.
They were produced for those districts affected in the occupied zones; each having one or 2 numbers and district name in the overprint, e.g. 27 Leipzig; 16 Ilmenau; 20 Dassau 1; 41 Crimmitschau; 27 Chemnitz 1, 14 Dresden 24 (the 24 denotes the district office number).
I cannot decipher yours.
From what I can glean, these overprinted stamps retained the face value as printed on the actual stamp, only between 24th June to 10th July 1948. Outside this period, they were 'invalidated', and postage due (Nachgebühr) charged. They could be used in combination with un-overprinted stamps; but these only retained 1/10 (one tenth) of their face value.
So the postal clerks had to add the value of each un-overprinted stamp, then divide by ten , then add the value of the overprinted stamp, then check the going rate. If the supplied stamps were under this rate, the appropriate charge (I think it was 150% of normal postage) was added as postage due.
Covers franked with these stamps must have caused havoc to the postal system:
You could have combinations of un-overprinted and overprinted stamps (one or more valid and one or more invalid. Note that the un-overprinted stamps were themselves invalidated 31 July. Or you could have all invalid.
Add to this the fact that certain issues were invalidated by individual zones (British and American zones, French Zone, Soviet Zone and West Berlin), when mail crossed from East to West Germany (and vice versa). You could also find combinations of these on the same envelope.
The Soviet Zone (Sowjetische Besatzungs Zone) also had their own overprinted stamps. Once again these had certain dates of valid use.
If your stamp does not have gum, it is remotely possible that it was used out of period and invalidated. Usually, such a stamp would have been 'isolated'; it would not have been cancelled. The stamp would have had a blue pencil mark applied around it on the envelope; an amount in pfennigs in blue, denoting the 'postage due' written on the cover and a rectangular cachet applied, usually in red stating Nachgebühr.
One last point regarding your copy, or at least the un-overprinted version, I believe this is part of one issue that is referred to as 'trizone'. I can't be at all sure but it's name suggests to me that such issues were supposedly valid in three of the zones I've mentioned. There are also bizones.
I bet you wish you'd never asked.
Please note my amendment in blue. I had worded this badly.
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
No, i am sure she appreciates any information...here is a scan of the back of the stamp it is a bit obscure so i was not sure of the spelling ! Thank you for your reply .
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
This may be a dealers authentication mark. This seems to be a very 'German' habit. It drives me up the wall, particularly when Queen Victoria mint stamps were marked this way in the old days.
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03:30:25am
re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
The big problem with these locals is that there are so many with forged overprints.
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
Your stamp identification is: 14 Löbau (Type a). District 14 is Dresden (East Saxony). The person who looked at this considered that this is probably genuine; "nice bleed-through".
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
Thank you, Ningpo and Michael for your help. Yes, Ningpo, that's the stamp! Still don't know how to find it in the Michel cat. have to learn that! And I ent on the German Ebay and under Loebau there is a cover with the stamp- the rose version. Thanks ! Jopie
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
These district overprints are listed in the standard Michel Germany catalog as the first general issue (Michel No. 166ff, 1948) for the Soviet occupation zone, which precedes the GDR listing. In the Michel standard catalog, only the value for the cheapest variety of all ten districts is given. In my 2006/7 catalog the cat value of the 12Pf stamp (#170) with any district overprint is EUR 1.50 (2.50) in MH (MNH) condition.
The Michel Germany specialized catalog has a detailed sixteen page listing of all known towns in each district and provides upcharges to be added to the listed minimum values. There is no additional value for "14 Löbau" relative to the minimum value (Michel Germany Specialized 2010).
The mark is from Volkmar Petzold, a known expert for the Bezirksaufdrucke. He joined BPP after the fall of the wall. Hence, you find 'Petzold BPP' as well as the prior Petzold (from GDR times) in the market. You may note that the positioning of the expert mark follows the German convention mentioned in Bruce's parallel thread.
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10:30:55pm
re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
This should help add some additional information regarding the Russian local overprints on German stamps following World War II.
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
Handoverprint Stamps of Post WWII – After WWII during the Allied occupation period the occupying countries formed the Allied Control Commission which issued postage stamps valid in all four occupied zones of Germany and Berlin. After the Monetary reform of 21 June 1948 , the Soviet Military Administration (SMA) broke away from the allies and established its own monetary reform invalidating stamps previously jointly used. Soviet produced stamps, however, were not issued until July 3. Therefore the SMA authorized use of the remaining stocks of pfennig valued stamps issued under the joint administration at 1/10th of face value. Each post office was required to “overprint†these stamps with a distinct stamp. These “overprinted†stamps were valid until 31 July 1948. These stamps were “overprinted†with the cancelling devices of each post office thereby creating a huge variety of different overprints. There are literally thousands of distinctly different stamps created by the many post offices in the Soviet Zone and East Berlin. It should be noted that there are many, many stamps existing with “fake†overprints and these stamps should be purchased only if they have been properly expertized. (I would estimate that at least 95% of these issues which are found and are not expertized are in fact forgeries.)
also see http://www.philatelicfoundation.org/
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
here are grosvenor results - ww2 forgeries
http://www.grosvenorauctions.com/dyn_pages/historic_sale_summary.php?show_h_sale_no=40&page=15
more...\
http://www.stamp-collecting-world.com/alliedoccupation.html
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01:05:47am
re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
If many of these stamps are minimum value why would anyone want to forge them?
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re: Local Overprints from Russian Occupation After World War II
Hi Malcolm,
The basic stamps were no longer valid in the Russian Zone and were available in large numbers to forgers.
Adding say ten forged overprints to each of twenty basic stamps would give a forger 200 new stamps to sell to collectors or to the stamp trade.
Printing or overprinting complete sheets can quickly give quantities that give the forger a good return on his time.
A lot of money must have been over the years by forging low value stamps especially those from exotic locations, e.g. the Russian Civil War Northern Army stamps, the Western Army eagles and many issues from Crete.
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