Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Here is an example of a WW2 Overrun Nations FDC to which an ink jet printed image and text were added recently by an eBay seller. While the seller mentions the word ad on, he does so only in a general sense and it is buried:
Personally, I feel placement of a contemporary image on an original cover, done years later is akin to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
Bruce
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It stinks!
regards, Theron
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11:07:52pm
I sort of like Ms. Lisa's mustache.
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Worthless. Worse than worthless. Criminal? Evil?
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11:29:12pm
Modern FDCs are contrived collectibles anyway, so what does it matter when the cachet was applied? FDCs submitted by individuals may not be cancelled for up to 60 days after the first day of issue, and those submitted by mass marketers up to 120 days! Most "philatelic" mail at least contain legitimate enclosures moved along the mail stream for a specific purpose; FDCs contain only a piece of thin cardboard and the envelope is never intended to be opened.
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12:41:27pm
I couldn't have said it better, Bobbie.
I recall a story by Herman Hurst about being asked to make an offer on a vast stock of FDCs accumulated by a recently deceased dealer. All he did was spot check for any genuine used FDCs and then measure the depth of the items in a few of the many drawers in a series of cabinets. Taking that average and counting the number of file drawers he made his estimate within a few minutes by simple multiplication. I don't recall the actual numbers but the FDCs were valued at a few pennies each, no more than if they were loose stamps on paper.
That people enjoy owning them is fine and dandy but let's not confuse them with postally valid usages. Adding a false cachet to a worthless FDC reminds me of grammar school math;
Zero times any number regardless of size equals "Zero".
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As I've often said, ad nauseum no doubt, I do collect FDCs and other purely philatelic items. In some cases because they represent the only known use of the stamps for any purpose. Most I have purchased because they serve as attractive illustrations for points I'm trying to make in web pages or exhibits. Here's a good example, an FDC for Canada's "War Issue" airmail stamp, showing a student in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan climbing into a Harvard trainer. The best thing about the cover is the attractive RCAF coat of arms:
Bob
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Hi Everyone;
In my non-humble politically incorrect, opinion, any stamp that is canceled, but did not actually pay for it's own delivery is just plain CTO!
If the FDC was mailed thru the normal mails, and on the date of issue, and not inside of another envelope, then it is a real "FIRST DAY COVER". All else is just another CTO. That is to say a canceled stamp that did not pay for it's own delivery. The original meaning given in older stamp glossaries for CTO stands for Canceled to Order!
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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Bob:
That is not the R.C.A.F. coat-of-arms, on your war effort cover; it's Canada's coat-of-arms.
David
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Oops! Forgot my Latin mottos. The RCAF motto is Per ardua ad astra — Through adversity to the stars. Canada's motto is A Mari Usque Ad Mare — From Sea to Sea. Please, for my punishment I would prefer bread and water in the brig for 10 days rather than keel-hauling or the lash. Better yet would be a bottle of Guinness with some camembert and fresh French bread.
boB
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Bob:
Send me your postal address via SOR and I'll mail you your punishment.
David
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Is the cachet on the Canadian cover from 1942 or was it added afterwards? If it is contemporary with 1942, rather than later, that little detail makes all the difference.
If we set aside the issue of CTO, important as it is, and think of a cover with a stamp that has an add on cachet, placed there many years after the stamp was in its stamp prime, I feel that an authentic item has been ruined.
Bruce
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01:30:28pm
"If we set aside the issue of CTO, important as it is, and think of a cover with a stamp that has an add on cachet, placed there many years after the stamp was in its stamp prime, I feel that an authentic item has been ruined. "
Anyone is entitled to collect any way he desires. If a collector believes one way is incorrect, then for that collector it is so. But to say that a collector who chooses to do things a different way (e.g., add a cachet to an existing cover for whatever reason) is ruining the hobby, or has done a " very, very, VERY bad" thing is just too judgmental for me to accept. Now if that person who adds the cachet tries to pass it off as a contemporaneous cachet, then you have a legitimate complaint. But at the beginning of this thread you stated that:
"...the seller mentions the word ad{sic} on, he does so only in a general sense and it is buried..."
and if he did so in a deliberate attempt to mislead prospective buyers into believing the cachet was contemporaneous, then he was wrong. However, if the disclaimer was there, and there was no intention to mislead, then there exists no wrong doing.
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In my opinion, these fabrications are bad. While the first buyer may or may not be 100% aware of what (s)he is buying, subsequent collectors do not have the benefit of a disclaimer. Fournier sold all of his fabrications as reproductions and they are now contained in almost everyone's collection and passed on as genuine. These after-the-fact-add-ons will eventually be all intermixed with contemporaneous cachets and will undoubtedly fool unaware collectors in the future. Common 1860s U.S. covers can still be bought for very little money. How about turning these into civil war and Lincoln patriotics? No, this is bad.
In the specific case, I am also disgusted how a buck is being made off of the horrors of the Third Reich to date by manufacturing Hitler memorabilia.
Finally, a rose is a rose is a rose. First day covers/cancels are first day covers/cancels. Cancelled to order is cancelled to order. These are distinct things, serving a different purpose. I do not collect FDCs, but perhaps like most of us, I keep random ones that I like. I know enough about them to know that these days FDCs are mostly preferred unaddressed, not having traveled through the mail stream. FDC or cachet collecting is by definition the collection of philatelically contrived items and like any collecting area it has its own standards. While among North American collectors postal usage is typically preferred over cancelled-to-order for used stamps, postal usage of an FDCs typically detracts from the value. Hence, mixing these two concepts is not helpful IMO. This has nothing to do with the legitimacy of some collectors' decision to limit their collection to only "non-philatelic" items based on their personal preference.
Arno
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I have no idea whether that Canadian coat-of-arms is a later add-on or not. Since such covers are very common, I don't think there's much reason for anyone to try to create a bogus version. At the same time, I've been told by a Canadian collector who is an expert on forgeries that there is virtually nothing in the philatelic marketplace that hasn't been faked at one time or another.
Bob
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I have a feeling that your cachet was made for the period, Bob.
During the time of the Roman Empire, there were antique markets filled with Egyptian fakes among others. There is nothing new under the sun.
I'm with Arno on this one: These things have the potential to dilute the legitimacy of the real items and if the person wishes to decorate their vintage covers or otherwise, they should all be stamped with the date they were doctored so that no future collector would collect them as originals.
Not sure I agree with you Bobby. While, in this instance, I do not know what was in the heart of the eBay dealer per se, it is significant to me that he/she has buried the mention of add on, only mentioning it in a general sense rather than specifically pointing out that the Hitler cachet was a modern add on.
Bruce
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08:35:07pm
Bruce
This sort of FDC is anathema to my collecting interests (I wouldn't want it in my collection), but it does hold a niche in the collecting arena. If folk want to collect these "add on" cachets, I respect that. And I do not believe you are advocating gathering and burning all such offensive material. It appears to me that you are concerned with deceptive advertising and marketing. But I just do not see that here. The Seller is not trying to pass the FDC off as possessing a contemporaneously produced cachet, quite the contrary, he goes to some length to explain what an "add on cachet" is and leaves it to the buyer to decide if he wants it in his collection. Asking $5.99 for the FDC is a far cry from seeking to bamboozle an unwitting collector. Directly beneath the picture of the FDC is the following (I'll leave it to the readers to decide if the guy is a weasel or not):
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"Limited Edition" — A collectible owned by everyone in the Universe except for one person in Sri Lanka who actually has a life.
boB
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Hi Bobby,
Nope wouldn't want to start a bonfire with them but such covers should be backstamped in indelible ink: ADD ON with the date when it was applied.
Also I think that seller does walk the fine line between honest representation and snake oil sales tactics regarding those covers irrespective of anyone who might want to collect them.
He states that, "All The First Day Covers I Sell Are Authentic." He places the add on explanation in the text at the bottom of his pages but up at the top where the cover is, there is no explanation that, for example, the Hitler cover I've shown is an add on. He makes no effort that I saw anyway to actually identify add on covers that he is selling. He also lumps them in with explanations that are officially accepted. I confess I'm not sure if there have been any official APS etc. condemnations regarding the practice of add ons. Does anyone know?
One might also pose the question: Are these add on covers authentic in the general, most commonly accepted sense as the seller claims? I would say the authenticity of the genuine cover has been compromised by the addition of a new add on to an old cover.
Certainly, I wouldn't argue that some people might want to collect such stuff but such stuff should be adequately identified by a seller and clearly marked so that future buyers many years from now may be guided by such ethical practices.
Bruce
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I agree with Bruce on this. For those who want this material, adding something to the cover years later just ruins it, and anyone who does should be upfront about it.
I do not collect covers except for Yakima, Wa., and Zepps, oh, and those of my birthday, and, er, ah anything that catches my eye. The point is, why add something to an original?
regards, Theron.
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09:31:18am
This is really a silly thing for me to argue over since I have no dog in this hunt. I don't collect any type of commercially or philatelically prepared FDC, but have no argument with those who do. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with respect to this seller. I think my response and rhetoric is more a backlash at what I perceive to be a pervasive atmosphere of negativism increasingly present on the discussion board. I think I'll just get back to playing with my stamps and leave the windmills to other quixotically inclined members.
Bobby
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12:32:51pm
I have no problem with add on cachets as long as they are labeled such. To the point that you have laser added cachet added to a FDC issued in the 1940s should not be a question as to it being an add on or not. For those who do not collect FDC's, who cares if you take a 50 cent uncacheted fdc and add a cachet. What, it lowers the value to 25 cents??? If someone wants it for a few dollars, again, who cares, as long as they know what they are getting.
One of the best modern day Cachet Makers Kendal Bevil who hand paints every cachet, took a few years to complete his orders for the Celebrate the Century set which had 150 stamps. Not one of his customers will complain that they are add ons. A full set will cost you well over $1000 if you can find one for sale. I see on bidStart a few decades on sale for $200+ a set.
http://stampwants-stamps.bidstart.com/3185-1930-s-Celebrate-the-Century-Bevil-FDC-Set-/45272779/a.html
Bob
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Bring on the good and the bad, the positive or negative windmill tilting! Said windmills, molehills, Mt. Everest, etc. are often in the mind of the beholder. We learn from all that we perceive including opposite opinions.
Quixotically yours,
Bruce
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Someone posted the link to this thread on the CMA Facebook page this morning.
As parkinlot stated, add-ons are perfectly fine as long as they are identified on the front or back with the date produced and who produced it, and quantity made is an added plus.
It is improper to compare First Day Covers to Postal History - they are two totally different collecting areas.
The individual that is selling these items on eBay, as illustrated in the first post in this thread, has been doing so for at least 10 years. It is obvious they are add-ons. I contacted the Seller about 11 years ago inquiring to the source of these, and he replied stating someone else makes them for a charitable organization and he sells them for a small commission - no other information provided. There is no disclosure who created them and, unfortunately, the creator has little regard for producing an overall quality product. They are not signed anywhere on the items. Interestingly, when I questioned the non-disclosure, he banned me from bidding, which didn't concern me anyway. My image database has many of these for reference, and are identified as him being the Producer until informed otherwise.
The quoted part of his listings in Bobby's post 07 Dec 15 8:35pm shows the comical nature of his "disclosure". My opinion differs from Bobby's. The items he makes are NOT "authentic and issued by the usps...". They are simply add-on cachets. Most collectors know this already; yet, there are many novice collectors who don't, and then there are topical collectors who purchase for the topic rather than the collecting area of the item (Masons, for example). His buyers will be displeased when they try to sell the items later. Sadly, most will black-ball the hobby rather than the source.
If it is not identified on the front/back as an add-on, then it is a deception. There are many that add-on cachets and do properly identify them, both on the covers AND in the advertising description. Currently I am aware of (3) regular eBay sellers that don't.
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11:03:23am
"His buyers will be displeased when they try to sell the items later."
Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price (even unadjusted for inflation)? It actually makes me sad when I respond to a request to value a "stamp collection" comprised of FDCs or mint US commemoratives. I do not enjoy telling the aspiring investors that their collection is basically worthless. But then, if I am naïve enough to believe that investing in something I know nothing about will prove lucrative, I deserve what I get. Of course, the PowerBall Lottery winners were probably given the same caveat...
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01:32:09pm
" ... Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price ..."
I bet you could go back at least twenty or so years earlier, with the possible exception of WW II themed FDCs.
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01:40:38pm
" .... I do not enjoy telling the aspiring investors that their collection is basically worthless. ..."
From the archives;
" .... If you undertake this task, understand that they may not believe you, and think that you are trying to rip them off.
Be prepared to see the gleam of serendipitous riches pass from their eyes as the focus of beady eyed suspicion enters the discussion and whatever friendship there existed sails off over the horizon.
I have seen this occur so many times especially at stamp dealers where the trust and respect offered to a philatelic professional is replaced by the steely eyed distrust most people reserve for a used car salesmen as their dreams are crushed in seconds..."
And;
" ... After a quick perusal you should have some idea if there is any real value involved. If there is, unless you wish to make an offer, refer them to a professional dealer or auction house.
If not, close the album, firmly, and tell them that what you see are nice stamps that you already have in some bulk and for which you couldn't possibly offer them any significant money. If you want, suggest that there might be some value at one of the auction houses that handle miscellaneous bulk lots. ...."
Been there, bought the tee-shirt, several times.
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This cover from Guernsey in the Channel Islands is undoubtedly an example of a "cachet added later" FDC:
I purchased it recently mainly because it's very attractive, and nicely illustrates the Guernsey arms, which are also the primary design of the stamp (which is the third of three stamps issued by Guernsey during the German occupation). However, there is little question that the cachet was added later, perhaps much later. To me, however, it is certainly not worthless!
For one thing, it makes a nice addition to the web page I'm working on about the occupation of the Channel Islands. But, more than that, it illustrates an interesting facet of Channel Islands philately during the war, when Islanders weren't allowed to travel (unless they were being sent to internment camps or concentration camps in Europe!), were suffering shortages of food and other commodities, and needed to fill their spare time somehow. It seems that many islanders and many of the thousands of occupation troops were stamp collectors. Based on the plethora of Channel Islands stamps and covers that are available, it seems that all of those collectors had their eyes on peacetime when they could make a killing selling occupation stamps and covers to collectors all over the planet. Collectors addressed many of the covers to themselves, and many may never have been mailed at all, but handed back to the customer after being cancelled.
Col. N.V.L. Rybot, who designed similar occupation stamps for Jersey, wrote about the first Jersey stamp in a post-war article: "This stamp was issued very appropriately on 1 April 1941;* but only a small proportion was used for the purpose for which it was intended, the bulk being greedily purchased, with a view to ultimate gain, by a host of German and local collectors and speculators."
I very much consider this cover, and other clearly "philatelic" covers in my Channel Islands Occupation collection, to be postal history items. Without them, we would have little idea of the philatelic aspects of the occupation. I think that FDCs are often unfairly maligned by "true postal historians". Considered with a critical eye, there are relatively few stamps that haven't been issued in part or in whole for philatelic purposes, and a great many have also been used as propaganda vehicles, with postal use being very much secondary.
Bob
*Rybot refers to April 1 being an appropriate date to issue the stamp because it "April-Fooled" the Germans, who had approved the design. The corners of the stamp contain tiny letter A's, which stand for Ad Avernum, Adolphe Atrox, Latin for "To Hell with you, Atrocious Adolf". Rybot goes on to say that the stamp caused great merriment amongst islanders. Here's a detail image of the stamp's corners:
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> Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price (even unadjusted for inflation)?
Absolutely YES. Generalizing all FDC's like stamps is an error many non-FDC enthusiasts make. FDC collectors have a choice of a variety of cachetmakers to choose from for each stamp, and many choose to collect all cachets for a particular stamp.
Mass produced FDCs, however, are worth less then when purchased - such as Artcraft, Artmaster, Fleetwood, Mystic, Aristocrat, Postal Commemorative Society, and the like. All FDCs are not the same.
Go to any FDC online store (including mine), and you will see this. To the extreme, if you had Ralph Dyer (RIP) make you a hand-drawn and hand-painted cachet back in the 1980's at his then price of $5.00, you could turn around and sell it in the same week for $25.00 - now 1980's Dyer cachets fetch $40-$100 depending on the popularity of the stamp/cachet. Dorothy Knapp hdn/hpd cachets from the 40's fetch $500 + each.
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10:54:45pm
I would like to hear some opinions from members regarding covers that have an ad on cachet, placed on an original cover many years after the original cover was mailed.
Here is an example of a WW2 Overrun Nations FDC to which an ink jet printed image and text were added recently by an eBay seller. While the seller mentions the word ad on, he does so only in a general sense and it is buried:
Personally, I feel placement of a contemporary image on an original cover, done years later is akin to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
Bruce
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
It stinks!
regards, Theron
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Dec 2014
11:07:52pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I sort of like Ms. Lisa's mustache.
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Worthless. Worse than worthless. Criminal? Evil?
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
05 Dec 2014
11:29:12pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Modern FDCs are contrived collectibles anyway, so what does it matter when the cachet was applied? FDCs submitted by individuals may not be cancelled for up to 60 days after the first day of issue, and those submitted by mass marketers up to 120 days! Most "philatelic" mail at least contain legitimate enclosures moved along the mail stream for a specific purpose; FDCs contain only a piece of thin cardboard and the envelope is never intended to be opened.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Dec 2014
12:41:27pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I couldn't have said it better, Bobbie.
I recall a story by Herman Hurst about being asked to make an offer on a vast stock of FDCs accumulated by a recently deceased dealer. All he did was spot check for any genuine used FDCs and then measure the depth of the items in a few of the many drawers in a series of cabinets. Taking that average and counting the number of file drawers he made his estimate within a few minutes by simple multiplication. I don't recall the actual numbers but the FDCs were valued at a few pennies each, no more than if they were loose stamps on paper.
That people enjoy owning them is fine and dandy but let's not confuse them with postally valid usages. Adding a false cachet to a worthless FDC reminds me of grammar school math;
Zero times any number regardless of size equals "Zero".
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
As I've often said, ad nauseum no doubt, I do collect FDCs and other purely philatelic items. In some cases because they represent the only known use of the stamps for any purpose. Most I have purchased because they serve as attractive illustrations for points I'm trying to make in web pages or exhibits. Here's a good example, an FDC for Canada's "War Issue" airmail stamp, showing a student in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan climbing into a Harvard trainer. The best thing about the cover is the attractive RCAF coat of arms:
Bob
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Hi Everyone;
In my non-humble politically incorrect, opinion, any stamp that is canceled, but did not actually pay for it's own delivery is just plain CTO!
If the FDC was mailed thru the normal mails, and on the date of issue, and not inside of another envelope, then it is a real "FIRST DAY COVER". All else is just another CTO. That is to say a canceled stamp that did not pay for it's own delivery. The original meaning given in older stamp glossaries for CTO stands for Canceled to Order!
Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Bob:
That is not the R.C.A.F. coat-of-arms, on your war effort cover; it's Canada's coat-of-arms.
David
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Oops! Forgot my Latin mottos. The RCAF motto is Per ardua ad astra — Through adversity to the stars. Canada's motto is A Mari Usque Ad Mare — From Sea to Sea. Please, for my punishment I would prefer bread and water in the brig for 10 days rather than keel-hauling or the lash. Better yet would be a bottle of Guinness with some camembert and fresh French bread.
boB
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Bob:
Send me your postal address via SOR and I'll mail you your punishment.
David
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01:03:29pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Is the cachet on the Canadian cover from 1942 or was it added afterwards? If it is contemporary with 1942, rather than later, that little detail makes all the difference.
If we set aside the issue of CTO, important as it is, and think of a cover with a stamp that has an add on cachet, placed there many years after the stamp was in its stamp prime, I feel that an authentic item has been ruined.
Bruce
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Dec 2014
01:30:28pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
"If we set aside the issue of CTO, important as it is, and think of a cover with a stamp that has an add on cachet, placed there many years after the stamp was in its stamp prime, I feel that an authentic item has been ruined. "
Anyone is entitled to collect any way he desires. If a collector believes one way is incorrect, then for that collector it is so. But to say that a collector who chooses to do things a different way (e.g., add a cachet to an existing cover for whatever reason) is ruining the hobby, or has done a " very, very, VERY bad" thing is just too judgmental for me to accept. Now if that person who adds the cachet tries to pass it off as a contemporaneous cachet, then you have a legitimate complaint. But at the beginning of this thread you stated that:
"...the seller mentions the word ad{sic} on, he does so only in a general sense and it is buried..."
and if he did so in a deliberate attempt to mislead prospective buyers into believing the cachet was contemporaneous, then he was wrong. However, if the disclaimer was there, and there was no intention to mislead, then there exists no wrong doing.
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
In my opinion, these fabrications are bad. While the first buyer may or may not be 100% aware of what (s)he is buying, subsequent collectors do not have the benefit of a disclaimer. Fournier sold all of his fabrications as reproductions and they are now contained in almost everyone's collection and passed on as genuine. These after-the-fact-add-ons will eventually be all intermixed with contemporaneous cachets and will undoubtedly fool unaware collectors in the future. Common 1860s U.S. covers can still be bought for very little money. How about turning these into civil war and Lincoln patriotics? No, this is bad.
In the specific case, I am also disgusted how a buck is being made off of the horrors of the Third Reich to date by manufacturing Hitler memorabilia.
Finally, a rose is a rose is a rose. First day covers/cancels are first day covers/cancels. Cancelled to order is cancelled to order. These are distinct things, serving a different purpose. I do not collect FDCs, but perhaps like most of us, I keep random ones that I like. I know enough about them to know that these days FDCs are mostly preferred unaddressed, not having traveled through the mail stream. FDC or cachet collecting is by definition the collection of philatelically contrived items and like any collecting area it has its own standards. While among North American collectors postal usage is typically preferred over cancelled-to-order for used stamps, postal usage of an FDCs typically detracts from the value. Hence, mixing these two concepts is not helpful IMO. This has nothing to do with the legitimacy of some collectors' decision to limit their collection to only "non-philatelic" items based on their personal preference.
Arno
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I have no idea whether that Canadian coat-of-arms is a later add-on or not. Since such covers are very common, I don't think there's much reason for anyone to try to create a bogus version. At the same time, I've been told by a Canadian collector who is an expert on forgeries that there is virtually nothing in the philatelic marketplace that hasn't been faked at one time or another.
Bob
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07:40:43pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I have a feeling that your cachet was made for the period, Bob.
During the time of the Roman Empire, there were antique markets filled with Egyptian fakes among others. There is nothing new under the sun.
I'm with Arno on this one: These things have the potential to dilute the legitimacy of the real items and if the person wishes to decorate their vintage covers or otherwise, they should all be stamped with the date they were doctored so that no future collector would collect them as originals.
Not sure I agree with you Bobby. While, in this instance, I do not know what was in the heart of the eBay dealer per se, it is significant to me that he/she has buried the mention of add on, only mentioning it in a general sense rather than specifically pointing out that the Hitler cachet was a modern add on.
Bruce
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Dec 2014
08:35:07pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Bruce
This sort of FDC is anathema to my collecting interests (I wouldn't want it in my collection), but it does hold a niche in the collecting arena. If folk want to collect these "add on" cachets, I respect that. And I do not believe you are advocating gathering and burning all such offensive material. It appears to me that you are concerned with deceptive advertising and marketing. But I just do not see that here. The Seller is not trying to pass the FDC off as possessing a contemporaneously produced cachet, quite the contrary, he goes to some length to explain what an "add on cachet" is and leaves it to the buyer to decide if he wants it in his collection. Asking $5.99 for the FDC is a far cry from seeking to bamboozle an unwitting collector. Directly beneath the picture of the FDC is the following (I'll leave it to the readers to decide if the guy is a weasel or not):
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
"Limited Edition" — A collectible owned by everyone in the Universe except for one person in Sri Lanka who actually has a life.
boB
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12:55:55am
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Hi Bobby,
Nope wouldn't want to start a bonfire with them but such covers should be backstamped in indelible ink: ADD ON with the date when it was applied.
Also I think that seller does walk the fine line between honest representation and snake oil sales tactics regarding those covers irrespective of anyone who might want to collect them.
He states that, "All The First Day Covers I Sell Are Authentic." He places the add on explanation in the text at the bottom of his pages but up at the top where the cover is, there is no explanation that, for example, the Hitler cover I've shown is an add on. He makes no effort that I saw anyway to actually identify add on covers that he is selling. He also lumps them in with explanations that are officially accepted. I confess I'm not sure if there have been any official APS etc. condemnations regarding the practice of add ons. Does anyone know?
One might also pose the question: Are these add on covers authentic in the general, most commonly accepted sense as the seller claims? I would say the authenticity of the genuine cover has been compromised by the addition of a new add on to an old cover.
Certainly, I wouldn't argue that some people might want to collect such stuff but such stuff should be adequately identified by a seller and clearly marked so that future buyers many years from now may be guided by such ethical practices.
Bruce
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I agree with Bruce on this. For those who want this material, adding something to the cover years later just ruins it, and anyone who does should be upfront about it.
I do not collect covers except for Yakima, Wa., and Zepps, oh, and those of my birthday, and, er, ah anything that catches my eye. The point is, why add something to an original?
regards, Theron.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
08 Dec 2014
09:31:18am
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
This is really a silly thing for me to argue over since I have no dog in this hunt. I don't collect any type of commercially or philatelically prepared FDC, but have no argument with those who do. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with respect to this seller. I think my response and rhetoric is more a backlash at what I perceive to be a pervasive atmosphere of negativism increasingly present on the discussion board. I think I'll just get back to playing with my stamps and leave the windmills to other quixotically inclined members.
Bobby
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
08 Dec 2014
12:32:51pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
I have no problem with add on cachets as long as they are labeled such. To the point that you have laser added cachet added to a FDC issued in the 1940s should not be a question as to it being an add on or not. For those who do not collect FDC's, who cares if you take a 50 cent uncacheted fdc and add a cachet. What, it lowers the value to 25 cents??? If someone wants it for a few dollars, again, who cares, as long as they know what they are getting.
One of the best modern day Cachet Makers Kendal Bevil who hand paints every cachet, took a few years to complete his orders for the Celebrate the Century set which had 150 stamps. Not one of his customers will complain that they are add ons. A full set will cost you well over $1000 if you can find one for sale. I see on bidStart a few decades on sale for $200+ a set.
http://stampwants-stamps.bidstart.com/3185-1930-s-Celebrate-the-Century-Bevil-FDC-Set-/45272779/a.html
Bob
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07:20:19pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Bring on the good and the bad, the positive or negative windmill tilting! Said windmills, molehills, Mt. Everest, etc. are often in the mind of the beholder. We learn from all that we perceive including opposite opinions.
Quixotically yours,
Bruce
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
Someone posted the link to this thread on the CMA Facebook page this morning.
As parkinlot stated, add-ons are perfectly fine as long as they are identified on the front or back with the date produced and who produced it, and quantity made is an added plus.
It is improper to compare First Day Covers to Postal History - they are two totally different collecting areas.
The individual that is selling these items on eBay, as illustrated in the first post in this thread, has been doing so for at least 10 years. It is obvious they are add-ons. I contacted the Seller about 11 years ago inquiring to the source of these, and he replied stating someone else makes them for a charitable organization and he sells them for a small commission - no other information provided. There is no disclosure who created them and, unfortunately, the creator has little regard for producing an overall quality product. They are not signed anywhere on the items. Interestingly, when I questioned the non-disclosure, he banned me from bidding, which didn't concern me anyway. My image database has many of these for reference, and are identified as him being the Producer until informed otherwise.
The quoted part of his listings in Bobby's post 07 Dec 15 8:35pm shows the comical nature of his "disclosure". My opinion differs from Bobby's. The items he makes are NOT "authentic and issued by the usps...". They are simply add-on cachets. Most collectors know this already; yet, there are many novice collectors who don't, and then there are topical collectors who purchase for the topic rather than the collecting area of the item (Masons, for example). His buyers will be displeased when they try to sell the items later. Sadly, most will black-ball the hobby rather than the source.
If it is not identified on the front/back as an add-on, then it is a deception. There are many that add-on cachets and do properly identify them, both on the covers AND in the advertising description. Currently I am aware of (3) regular eBay sellers that don't.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
05 Mar 2015
11:03:23am
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
"His buyers will be displeased when they try to sell the items later."
Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price (even unadjusted for inflation)? It actually makes me sad when I respond to a request to value a "stamp collection" comprised of FDCs or mint US commemoratives. I do not enjoy telling the aspiring investors that their collection is basically worthless. But then, if I am naïve enough to believe that investing in something I know nothing about will prove lucrative, I deserve what I get. Of course, the PowerBall Lottery winners were probably given the same caveat...
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Mar 2015
01:32:09pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
" ... Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price ..."
I bet you could go back at least twenty or so years earlier, with the possible exception of WW II themed FDCs.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Mar 2015
01:40:38pm
re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
" .... I do not enjoy telling the aspiring investors that their collection is basically worthless. ..."
From the archives;
" .... If you undertake this task, understand that they may not believe you, and think that you are trying to rip them off.
Be prepared to see the gleam of serendipitous riches pass from their eyes as the focus of beady eyed suspicion enters the discussion and whatever friendship there existed sails off over the horizon.
I have seen this occur so many times especially at stamp dealers where the trust and respect offered to a philatelic professional is replaced by the steely eyed distrust most people reserve for a used car salesmen as their dreams are crushed in seconds..."
And;
" ... After a quick perusal you should have some idea if there is any real value involved. If there is, unless you wish to make an offer, refer them to a professional dealer or auction house.
If not, close the album, firmly, and tell them that what you see are nice stamps that you already have in some bulk and for which you couldn't possibly offer them any significant money. If you want, suggest that there might be some value at one of the auction houses that handle miscellaneous bulk lots. ...."
Been there, bought the tee-shirt, several times.
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
This cover from Guernsey in the Channel Islands is undoubtedly an example of a "cachet added later" FDC:
I purchased it recently mainly because it's very attractive, and nicely illustrates the Guernsey arms, which are also the primary design of the stamp (which is the third of three stamps issued by Guernsey during the German occupation). However, there is little question that the cachet was added later, perhaps much later. To me, however, it is certainly not worthless!
For one thing, it makes a nice addition to the web page I'm working on about the occupation of the Channel Islands. But, more than that, it illustrates an interesting facet of Channel Islands philately during the war, when Islanders weren't allowed to travel (unless they were being sent to internment camps or concentration camps in Europe!), were suffering shortages of food and other commodities, and needed to fill their spare time somehow. It seems that many islanders and many of the thousands of occupation troops were stamp collectors. Based on the plethora of Channel Islands stamps and covers that are available, it seems that all of those collectors had their eyes on peacetime when they could make a killing selling occupation stamps and covers to collectors all over the planet. Collectors addressed many of the covers to themselves, and many may never have been mailed at all, but handed back to the customer after being cancelled.
Col. N.V.L. Rybot, who designed similar occupation stamps for Jersey, wrote about the first Jersey stamp in a post-war article: "This stamp was issued very appropriately on 1 April 1941;* but only a small proportion was used for the purpose for which it was intended, the bulk being greedily purchased, with a view to ultimate gain, by a host of German and local collectors and speculators."
I very much consider this cover, and other clearly "philatelic" covers in my Channel Islands Occupation collection, to be postal history items. Without them, we would have little idea of the philatelic aspects of the occupation. I think that FDCs are often unfairly maligned by "true postal historians". Considered with a critical eye, there are relatively few stamps that haven't been issued in part or in whole for philatelic purposes, and a great many have also been used as propaganda vehicles, with postal use being very much secondary.
Bob
*Rybot refers to April 1 being an appropriate date to issue the stamp because it "April-Fooled" the Germans, who had approved the design. The corners of the stamp contain tiny letter A's, which stand for Ad Avernum, Adolphe Atrox, Latin for "To Hell with you, Atrocious Adolf". Rybot goes on to say that the stamp caused great merriment amongst islanders. Here's a detail image of the stamp's corners:
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re: Add On Cachets: Good or Very Very, VERY Bad?
> Are there any modern era (1960 - present) FDCs which fetch more than their original price (even unadjusted for inflation)?
Absolutely YES. Generalizing all FDC's like stamps is an error many non-FDC enthusiasts make. FDC collectors have a choice of a variety of cachetmakers to choose from for each stamp, and many choose to collect all cachets for a particular stamp.
Mass produced FDCs, however, are worth less then when purchased - such as Artcraft, Artmaster, Fleetwood, Mystic, Aristocrat, Postal Commemorative Society, and the like. All FDCs are not the same.
Go to any FDC online store (including mine), and you will see this. To the extreme, if you had Ralph Dyer (RIP) make you a hand-drawn and hand-painted cachet back in the 1980's at his then price of $5.00, you could turn around and sell it in the same week for $25.00 - now 1980's Dyer cachets fetch $40-$100 depending on the popularity of the stamp/cachet. Dorothy Knapp hdn/hpd cachets from the 40's fetch $500 + each.
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