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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Auction Disc. : SOR policy for lost shipments?

 

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Misterstamper

08 Dec 2014
05:38:16pm
Hello

I fear that a shipment of stamps sent to me over a month ago has been lost or stolen in the mail. If it does not show up, I will have to deal with it. I would like to know if there is an SOR protocol for this. I have had a couple of losses in another website (Stamps2Go) and I had to cover the loss. As a buyer I would hate also to take the loss, but I just don't quite know what to do. Please advise.. .

Jerry
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TuskenRaider
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08 Dec 2014
07:12:20pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Hi Everyone;

I don't know of any specific protocol for this, but I'm sure that someone will respond.

You have probably already done the obvious; 1) contact seller, to ask date item was shipped, and did the package have USPS tracking.

Here are some good tips that they may not mention and are probably not part of S-o-R policy or rules.

1) Use caution when buying from or selling to the following countries:

Russia
China
India
Hong Kong and Singapore
Italy
Bulgaria
Romania
Albania

Also any country were poverty is rampant, as the officials in those nations are very underpaid, and are more likely to steal. In some nations like Russia and India, it is so bad as to be referred to as 'institutionalized',or part of the culture. The highest probability of loss is to foreign customs official. It is their job to frequently open and inspect packages for contraband. Some just decide to take whatever looks valuable, and it will be sold the very next day to a dealer.

This problem was explained to me by my stamp/coin buyer in India about a year ago. He suffered a loss of coins and stamps that I shipped, but somehow knew that it was customs, who was to blame. He repurchased the items, which I had multiples of at the same price and they were received okay.

Whenever you ship to a suspect location, always send a package that is non-descriptive. DO NOT put a bunch of older or prettier stamps on the package, but instead use the round USPS international forever self-stick. If your customer complains about this just tell them that due to past losses you need to send a stealth package, that doesn't attract attention. By international rules of fair trade, the SELLER is always responsible for getting the goods delivered, and is on the hook until the buyer has received and is satisfied that item is as described.

When I ship to these nations, I put in sharpie on the front "DO NOT BEND" and on the back I put "FAMILY PHOTOS, PLEASE DO NOT BEND, THANK YOU". In addition I place non-corrugated cardboard on both sides of stamps. A DiGiorno pizza box is great for this, because the pizza is sealed in plastic and can't get grease on the inside surface. Try to keep the envelope thin to avoid extra postage. The cardboard serves as an opaque barrier, if someone holds the envelope up to the light to see it's contents. It also adds just the right thickness and stiffness, to pass off as half a dozen photos.

I have successfully sold in 23 nations from Norway-to-New Zealand, and over two dozen US states. I have sold in Bulgaria, Zelenograd Russia, Italy, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand, India, Dubai, and Ukraine. And all without incident except the one time in India.

Good Luck and hope your stamps arrive safely.

Keep on stampin'
TuskenRaider

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

08 Dec 2014
08:47:13pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

To my knowledge there is no policy for lost shipments (or for lost cash sent in payment, for that matter). SOR leaves it up to the Buyer and Seller to work it out. If a shipment is lost, and neither buyer nor seller is at fault, I would suggest splitting the loss.

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michael78651
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09 Dec 2014
01:19:00am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Cash sent as payment is always at the risk of the buyer.

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michael78651
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09 Dec 2014
01:26:32am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Ken, I know several sellers who do as you regarding the "Do not bend, photos enclosed". However, when sending to another country, such a statement, is a false declaration of the contents. If the mailing is inspected by another country's customs, and it is found, the contents can be confiscated, and the buyer could land in alot of trouble - smuggling, especially if a customs duty is required by the receiving country. Depending on how sophisticated the other country is, your name could be placed on their database, and everything you send to that country could end up being confiscated.

On my international shipments, I use a customs declaration form on all orders totaling $5 or more, and I clearly state "philatelic material" (or what it is if not stamps) on the form.

Sellers can do what they want when it comes to how they handle their shipments. I am not telling anyone how to handle their business. I just don't want to take the risk for either myself or my buyers.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 Dec 2014
02:32:14pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Jerry, SOR's auction policies do not specifically cover a shipment gone awry.

Perhaps, in the interest of clarity, we should develop a policy.

I have some unofficial opinions and will happily share them if asked, but they won't be as auctioneer.

David, auctioneer

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TuskenRaider
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09 Dec 2014
06:50:53pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Hi Everyone;

@ Michael;

I recently e-mailed a US Customs official and he stated that inexpensive stamps/coins would not be considered taxable under any nations tariff laws. He said that sometimes they are opened and then resealed and sent on their way, unless of course it is one of those nations that are notorious for stealing.

Also postal officials told me that only something considered a package requires a customs form. A 1 oz. letter of normal (less than 1/8") is not considered a package needing a customs declaration. A lot of Kiloware is another matter entirely. But I don't sell large lots only singles mostly. So my packages do not have a customs form and so no law broken. Simply writing "family photos" is not a legal declaration and is not a criminal act.

Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

09 Dec 2014
09:22:11pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Not sure what postal official you talked to but the usps website is specific as to what requires a customs form.

" 2.4.2 Items Containing Goods

Regardless of mail class or weight, items containing goods (i.e., contents other than documents; see IMM 123.63 for “document” eligibility) must bear a properly completed PS Form 2976, Customs Declaration CN 22, or, if the customer prefers, a PS Form 2976-
A,"

And yes, "goods" include small gifts of nominal value because they are not "documents".

My postmaster made this VERY clear to me. As I worked for the Federal government and we were in the same building with customs I asked our lawyers to check with Customs for me and the answer was "yes" - you must fill out a customs form for anything other than documents regardless of whether it is an envelope of less than an ounce or a large package, and regardless of value.

Is it enforced - probably not (except at our post office, lucky me)...... anyway - it's easy to check it out on the usps website.

Just my two cents ..

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michael78651
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09 Dec 2014
10:38:01pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Using the customs form also gives you tracking.

Ken, like I said, I wasn't telling anyone how to handle their shipments. To use or not to use the form, to properly state or not properly state, a seller has to make their own choice how much of a risk of the mailing not getting to its intended recipient they are willing to take.

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Stampme

08 Feb 2015
11:26:41am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

The customs form according to the USPS website is no longer tracked, and it did not track to the delivery address in any case before it was deemed a non trackable appendage. The USPS now recommends purchasing their tracking service which can by pricey.
Bruce

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philb
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08 Feb 2015
04:39:06pm

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re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

I agree its up to the individuals..if i know a person i take them at their word...if the person is unknown to me i would probably not buy from him again.

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michael78651
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08 Feb 2015
05:38:20pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

"The customs form according to the USPS website is no longer tracked"



That is not exactly correct. Here is the tracking information of an item that I recently sent to Germany. The package had the customs form that printed out from the postage that I purchased online through PayPal.

Departed
2015-02-01, 12:20:00, Frankfurt

Departed
2015-01-31, 22:26:00, Washington

Departed
2015-01-31, 08:59:00, Chicago

Arrived
2015-01-30, 23:42:00, Chicago

Processed Through Sort Facility
2015-01-30, 15:20:00, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)

Arrived at Sort Facility
2015-01-30, 11:18:00, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)

Arrived at USPS Facility
2015-01-30, 11:18:00, CHICAGO, IL 60666

Departed USPS Facility
2015-01-27, 20:45:00, AUSTIN, TX 78710

Arrived at USPS Origin Facility
2015-01-27, 18:54:00, AUSTIN, TX 78710

Acceptance
2015-01-27, 12:43:00, ROUND ROCK, TX 78664
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Stampme

09 Feb 2015
05:16:50pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Image Not Found
Interesting to see your info that contradicts my earlier experience. I'm wondering what mail service you used to ship to Germany--1st Class Letter, Parcel, other?

I am not printing out postage from Paypal for foreign destinations but rather go straight to the USPS branch and ship when possible using First Class International Letter Rate Nonmachinable most times and would be doing the same thing for Small Parcel--going directly to post office.

I use a private insurance company otherwise the eBay printed postage via USPS would bypass the cheaper services and go directly to online tracking services that are much more expensive. I would presume Paypal would do the same.

Today, I input two customs numbers and here are images of the pages alerting me that there would be no tracking to Australia or China. Normally, I would see the same info you posted. Possibly, this USPS new rule hasn't caught up to Paypal yet?

These current pages (today) also do not contain the info that customs numbers would no longer be used for any form of tracking that I wrote about and saw earlier.

If your item only has a customs number then it, according to the last time I checked, will not fulfill Paypal's online delivery criteria as it doesn't show tracking delivery to the customer's door.

Bruce
PS: Looking at your tracking info, I also note that there is no mention of customs which normally I would see when inputting the customs form #, as in Entering Customs Chicago, so I wonder if there isn't some other online delivery number that is being triggered here?
Image Not Found

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michael78651
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09 Feb 2015
06:47:57pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

I used priority mail international.

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Stampme

10 Feb 2015
07:58:30pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Pretty sure that International Priority Mail has an online tracking number that is separate from the customs number so it would electronically guide you to the point of delivery at the buyer's door.

Bruce

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michael78651
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11 Feb 2015
12:24:28am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Nope. The tracking number is the customs form barcode number.

This shipment was electronically paid postage with the customs form. However, I have for years used the hand-completed customs form for shipping internationally for shipments valued $5.00 and more. The number on the customs form is what is scanned in and tracked.

One of my books was shipped to Russia. The buyer complained that the book was not received. I got with my post office, and it tracked to US Customs in St. Louis.

My son sold an Iphone through eBay to a buyer in Israel. He used the hand completed customs form. The buyer filed a non-receipt dispute. The tracking showed that it was in fact delivered and the dispute was closed.

I have been suggesting use of the customs form even when it isn't required for many years. People argue with me about it, and then they have problems by not using it. I have never had a problem tracking any international shipment.

Y'all do what you want. I just relay my experiences in attempts to clarify misconceptions and offer tips that may help prevent problems that people complain about.

Remember what I said about the unscrupulous buyers. They know when a seller takes a short cut to avoid paying a little bit more for tracking. They will file a non-receipt complaint, and they will win it. It isn't PayPal's or eBay's fault. They clearly state what is the policy regarding how to ship, and how sellers can avoid losing non-receipt complaints against them. Whether a seller follows those procedures is up to each seller. Do I always ship with tracking? No. Sometimes I take the risk on a small purchase. I figure the extra fee for tracking isn't worth it if the cost is more than what I sold an item for. However, most shipments do include tracking, and buying it online from eBay, tracking is often free, plus you can get a discount on the postage. They try to help sellers, but some would rather cut corners, and then declare that eBay and PayPal are anti-seller and rip-offs. Not true.

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michael78651
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11 Feb 2015
12:48:16am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Also, if you do not like handling international shipments, you can send the item sold to eBay, and they'll ship it for you. eBay assumes 100% of the risk in the event of non-receipt.

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Stampme

11 Feb 2015
10:55:25pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Well I posted recent customs tracking number results on here earlier and supplied the page display from the USPS website that informs me that there was no tracking involved for those numbers. Earlier, I had seen a message on the USPS site that plainly stated that the US Customs form would no longer show any tracking but tracking could be obtained using much higher forms of service such as International Priority Mail which incidentally Michael used. The two pages I copied here closes that argument for me: Customs forms used on First Class International Mail are no longer trackable and they were never completely tracked to the addressee's door, only to the customs office of the foreign destination--therefore according to Paypal not fulfilling the requirement for proof of delivery.

I'm still wondering whether your usage of Preprinted Priority International Mail postage is not some hybrid of a combined USPS tracking number and a customs number?

The example you provided does not show a completion of delivery. It stops at departed Frankfurt. That would not suffice as proof of delivery for Paypal (or eBay -- your examples are puzzling) as it must show delivery to the addressee's doorstep or PO BOX. Did your tracking complete the cycle by showing delivery to the person's home after the Feb. 1 city arrival date?

Rather than rely on expensive USPS foreign shipment services or eBay Global Shipping Program, also not cheap, I prefer to ship either First Class International Non Machinable First Class Letter Rate or First Class Small Parcel Rate with the now untrackable customs forms. Ebay partners with an insurance company who charges me less money to insure Foreign (and domestic) than the USPS and only require proof of payment for the stamps and proof that I mailed them--a USPS receipt. If a buyer states they did not receive the items, they must electronically sign a statement to that effect and usually within 24-48 hours (it's only happened a couple times to me), the company deposits the entire amount paid for the stamps including shipping cost into my account and I am able to refund the buyer via Paypal.

Bruce
PS: That eBay partnered insurer will also insure non eBay shipments.

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michael78651
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12 Feb 2015
12:29:24am
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

"Did your tracking complete the cycle by showing delivery to the person's home after the Feb. 1 city arrival date? "



That's all that shows at this time.
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Stampme

12 Feb 2015
06:56:17pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Here is the latest, today, Paypal requirements for proof of shipping and proof of delivery.

Note that proof of shipping now includes online or physical documentation but the final stage is proof of delivery and only online delivery tracking confirmation is acceptable. The buyers address must match the address on file with Paypal.

"11.4

Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery and Signature Confirmation Requirements.
"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is shipped.
The recipient’s address matches the shipping address provided on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The item’s status as delivered.
The date the item is delivered.
The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent)."

Since I hadn't looked this over for awhile I wanted to see if there were any changes. Also I asked both Paypal rep and eBay rep if the online tracking service stopped at say city alone: February 12--Arrived in London
Would that confirm delivery confirmation. They both said no. The buyer could claim, truthfully or not, that they did not receive the item and eBay and or Paypal would refund their money.

Bruce

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Stampme

27 Feb 2015
03:36:14pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Michael,
I'm wondering if that February "customs tracking" number went further than just the city arrival as previously stated, as February 1 and closed the loop showing delivery to the buyer's street address?

Bruce

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michael78651
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27 Feb 2015
05:35:31pm
re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

No. It still shows the same.

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Misterstamper

08 Dec 2014
05:38:16pm

Hello

I fear that a shipment of stamps sent to me over a month ago has been lost or stolen in the mail. If it does not show up, I will have to deal with it. I would like to know if there is an SOR protocol for this. I have had a couple of losses in another website (Stamps2Go) and I had to cover the loss. As a buyer I would hate also to take the loss, but I just don't quite know what to do. Please advise.. .

Jerry

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TuskenRaider

08 Dec 2014
07:12:20pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Hi Everyone;

I don't know of any specific protocol for this, but I'm sure that someone will respond.

You have probably already done the obvious; 1) contact seller, to ask date item was shipped, and did the package have USPS tracking.

Here are some good tips that they may not mention and are probably not part of S-o-R policy or rules.

1) Use caution when buying from or selling to the following countries:

Russia
China
India
Hong Kong and Singapore
Italy
Bulgaria
Romania
Albania

Also any country were poverty is rampant, as the officials in those nations are very underpaid, and are more likely to steal. In some nations like Russia and India, it is so bad as to be referred to as 'institutionalized',or part of the culture. The highest probability of loss is to foreign customs official. It is their job to frequently open and inspect packages for contraband. Some just decide to take whatever looks valuable, and it will be sold the very next day to a dealer.

This problem was explained to me by my stamp/coin buyer in India about a year ago. He suffered a loss of coins and stamps that I shipped, but somehow knew that it was customs, who was to blame. He repurchased the items, which I had multiples of at the same price and they were received okay.

Whenever you ship to a suspect location, always send a package that is non-descriptive. DO NOT put a bunch of older or prettier stamps on the package, but instead use the round USPS international forever self-stick. If your customer complains about this just tell them that due to past losses you need to send a stealth package, that doesn't attract attention. By international rules of fair trade, the SELLER is always responsible for getting the goods delivered, and is on the hook until the buyer has received and is satisfied that item is as described.

When I ship to these nations, I put in sharpie on the front "DO NOT BEND" and on the back I put "FAMILY PHOTOS, PLEASE DO NOT BEND, THANK YOU". In addition I place non-corrugated cardboard on both sides of stamps. A DiGiorno pizza box is great for this, because the pizza is sealed in plastic and can't get grease on the inside surface. Try to keep the envelope thin to avoid extra postage. The cardboard serves as an opaque barrier, if someone holds the envelope up to the light to see it's contents. It also adds just the right thickness and stiffness, to pass off as half a dozen photos.

I have successfully sold in 23 nations from Norway-to-New Zealand, and over two dozen US states. I have sold in Bulgaria, Zelenograd Russia, Italy, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand, India, Dubai, and Ukraine. And all without incident except the one time in India.

Good Luck and hope your stamps arrive safely.

Keep on stampin'
TuskenRaider

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08 Dec 2014
08:47:13pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

To my knowledge there is no policy for lost shipments (or for lost cash sent in payment, for that matter). SOR leaves it up to the Buyer and Seller to work it out. If a shipment is lost, and neither buyer nor seller is at fault, I would suggest splitting the loss.

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michael78651

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09 Dec 2014
01:19:00am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Cash sent as payment is always at the risk of the buyer.

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michael78651

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09 Dec 2014
01:26:32am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Ken, I know several sellers who do as you regarding the "Do not bend, photos enclosed". However, when sending to another country, such a statement, is a false declaration of the contents. If the mailing is inspected by another country's customs, and it is found, the contents can be confiscated, and the buyer could land in alot of trouble - smuggling, especially if a customs duty is required by the receiving country. Depending on how sophisticated the other country is, your name could be placed on their database, and everything you send to that country could end up being confiscated.

On my international shipments, I use a customs declaration form on all orders totaling $5 or more, and I clearly state "philatelic material" (or what it is if not stamps) on the form.

Sellers can do what they want when it comes to how they handle their shipments. I am not telling anyone how to handle their business. I just don't want to take the risk for either myself or my buyers.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 Dec 2014
02:32:14pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Jerry, SOR's auction policies do not specifically cover a shipment gone awry.

Perhaps, in the interest of clarity, we should develop a policy.

I have some unofficial opinions and will happily share them if asked, but they won't be as auctioneer.

David, auctioneer

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TuskenRaider

09 Dec 2014
06:50:53pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Hi Everyone;

@ Michael;

I recently e-mailed a US Customs official and he stated that inexpensive stamps/coins would not be considered taxable under any nations tariff laws. He said that sometimes they are opened and then resealed and sent on their way, unless of course it is one of those nations that are notorious for stealing.

Also postal officials told me that only something considered a package requires a customs form. A 1 oz. letter of normal (less than 1/8") is not considered a package needing a customs declaration. A lot of Kiloware is another matter entirely. But I don't sell large lots only singles mostly. So my packages do not have a customs form and so no law broken. Simply writing "family photos" is not a legal declaration and is not a criminal act.

Keep on Stampin'
TuskenRaider

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

09 Dec 2014
09:22:11pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Not sure what postal official you talked to but the usps website is specific as to what requires a customs form.

" 2.4.2 Items Containing Goods

Regardless of mail class or weight, items containing goods (i.e., contents other than documents; see IMM 123.63 for “document” eligibility) must bear a properly completed PS Form 2976, Customs Declaration CN 22, or, if the customer prefers, a PS Form 2976-
A,"

And yes, "goods" include small gifts of nominal value because they are not "documents".

My postmaster made this VERY clear to me. As I worked for the Federal government and we were in the same building with customs I asked our lawyers to check with Customs for me and the answer was "yes" - you must fill out a customs form for anything other than documents regardless of whether it is an envelope of less than an ounce or a large package, and regardless of value.

Is it enforced - probably not (except at our post office, lucky me)...... anyway - it's easy to check it out on the usps website.

Just my two cents ..

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michael78651

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09 Dec 2014
10:38:01pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Using the customs form also gives you tracking.

Ken, like I said, I wasn't telling anyone how to handle their shipments. To use or not to use the form, to properly state or not properly state, a seller has to make their own choice how much of a risk of the mailing not getting to its intended recipient they are willing to take.

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Stampme

08 Feb 2015
11:26:41am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

The customs form according to the USPS website is no longer tracked, and it did not track to the delivery address in any case before it was deemed a non trackable appendage. The USPS now recommends purchasing their tracking service which can by pricey.
Bruce

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philb

08 Feb 2015
04:39:06pm

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re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

I agree its up to the individuals..if i know a person i take them at their word...if the person is unknown to me i would probably not buy from him again.

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michael78651

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08 Feb 2015
05:38:20pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

"The customs form according to the USPS website is no longer tracked"



That is not exactly correct. Here is the tracking information of an item that I recently sent to Germany. The package had the customs form that printed out from the postage that I purchased online through PayPal.

Departed
2015-02-01, 12:20:00, Frankfurt

Departed
2015-01-31, 22:26:00, Washington

Departed
2015-01-31, 08:59:00, Chicago

Arrived
2015-01-30, 23:42:00, Chicago

Processed Through Sort Facility
2015-01-30, 15:20:00, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)

Arrived at Sort Facility
2015-01-30, 11:18:00, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)

Arrived at USPS Facility
2015-01-30, 11:18:00, CHICAGO, IL 60666

Departed USPS Facility
2015-01-27, 20:45:00, AUSTIN, TX 78710

Arrived at USPS Origin Facility
2015-01-27, 18:54:00, AUSTIN, TX 78710

Acceptance
2015-01-27, 12:43:00, ROUND ROCK, TX 78664
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Stampme

09 Feb 2015
05:16:50pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

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Interesting to see your info that contradicts my earlier experience. I'm wondering what mail service you used to ship to Germany--1st Class Letter, Parcel, other?

I am not printing out postage from Paypal for foreign destinations but rather go straight to the USPS branch and ship when possible using First Class International Letter Rate Nonmachinable most times and would be doing the same thing for Small Parcel--going directly to post office.

I use a private insurance company otherwise the eBay printed postage via USPS would bypass the cheaper services and go directly to online tracking services that are much more expensive. I would presume Paypal would do the same.

Today, I input two customs numbers and here are images of the pages alerting me that there would be no tracking to Australia or China. Normally, I would see the same info you posted. Possibly, this USPS new rule hasn't caught up to Paypal yet?

These current pages (today) also do not contain the info that customs numbers would no longer be used for any form of tracking that I wrote about and saw earlier.

If your item only has a customs number then it, according to the last time I checked, will not fulfill Paypal's online delivery criteria as it doesn't show tracking delivery to the customer's door.

Bruce
PS: Looking at your tracking info, I also note that there is no mention of customs which normally I would see when inputting the customs form #, as in Entering Customs Chicago, so I wonder if there isn't some other online delivery number that is being triggered here?
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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
09 Feb 2015
06:47:57pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

I used priority mail international.

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Stampme

10 Feb 2015
07:58:30pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Pretty sure that International Priority Mail has an online tracking number that is separate from the customs number so it would electronically guide you to the point of delivery at the buyer's door.

Bruce

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
11 Feb 2015
12:24:28am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Nope. The tracking number is the customs form barcode number.

This shipment was electronically paid postage with the customs form. However, I have for years used the hand-completed customs form for shipping internationally for shipments valued $5.00 and more. The number on the customs form is what is scanned in and tracked.

One of my books was shipped to Russia. The buyer complained that the book was not received. I got with my post office, and it tracked to US Customs in St. Louis.

My son sold an Iphone through eBay to a buyer in Israel. He used the hand completed customs form. The buyer filed a non-receipt dispute. The tracking showed that it was in fact delivered and the dispute was closed.

I have been suggesting use of the customs form even when it isn't required for many years. People argue with me about it, and then they have problems by not using it. I have never had a problem tracking any international shipment.

Y'all do what you want. I just relay my experiences in attempts to clarify misconceptions and offer tips that may help prevent problems that people complain about.

Remember what I said about the unscrupulous buyers. They know when a seller takes a short cut to avoid paying a little bit more for tracking. They will file a non-receipt complaint, and they will win it. It isn't PayPal's or eBay's fault. They clearly state what is the policy regarding how to ship, and how sellers can avoid losing non-receipt complaints against them. Whether a seller follows those procedures is up to each seller. Do I always ship with tracking? No. Sometimes I take the risk on a small purchase. I figure the extra fee for tracking isn't worth it if the cost is more than what I sold an item for. However, most shipments do include tracking, and buying it online from eBay, tracking is often free, plus you can get a discount on the postage. They try to help sellers, but some would rather cut corners, and then declare that eBay and PayPal are anti-seller and rip-offs. Not true.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
11 Feb 2015
12:48:16am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Also, if you do not like handling international shipments, you can send the item sold to eBay, and they'll ship it for you. eBay assumes 100% of the risk in the event of non-receipt.

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Stampme

11 Feb 2015
10:55:25pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Well I posted recent customs tracking number results on here earlier and supplied the page display from the USPS website that informs me that there was no tracking involved for those numbers. Earlier, I had seen a message on the USPS site that plainly stated that the US Customs form would no longer show any tracking but tracking could be obtained using much higher forms of service such as International Priority Mail which incidentally Michael used. The two pages I copied here closes that argument for me: Customs forms used on First Class International Mail are no longer trackable and they were never completely tracked to the addressee's door, only to the customs office of the foreign destination--therefore according to Paypal not fulfilling the requirement for proof of delivery.

I'm still wondering whether your usage of Preprinted Priority International Mail postage is not some hybrid of a combined USPS tracking number and a customs number?

The example you provided does not show a completion of delivery. It stops at departed Frankfurt. That would not suffice as proof of delivery for Paypal (or eBay -- your examples are puzzling) as it must show delivery to the addressee's doorstep or PO BOX. Did your tracking complete the cycle by showing delivery to the person's home after the Feb. 1 city arrival date?

Rather than rely on expensive USPS foreign shipment services or eBay Global Shipping Program, also not cheap, I prefer to ship either First Class International Non Machinable First Class Letter Rate or First Class Small Parcel Rate with the now untrackable customs forms. Ebay partners with an insurance company who charges me less money to insure Foreign (and domestic) than the USPS and only require proof of payment for the stamps and proof that I mailed them--a USPS receipt. If a buyer states they did not receive the items, they must electronically sign a statement to that effect and usually within 24-48 hours (it's only happened a couple times to me), the company deposits the entire amount paid for the stamps including shipping cost into my account and I am able to refund the buyer via Paypal.

Bruce
PS: That eBay partnered insurer will also insure non eBay shipments.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
12 Feb 2015
12:29:24am

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

"Did your tracking complete the cycle by showing delivery to the person's home after the Feb. 1 city arrival date? "



That's all that shows at this time.
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Stampme

12 Feb 2015
06:56:17pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Here is the latest, today, Paypal requirements for proof of shipping and proof of delivery.

Note that proof of shipping now includes online or physical documentation but the final stage is proof of delivery and only online delivery tracking confirmation is acceptable. The buyers address must match the address on file with Paypal.

"11.4

Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery and Signature Confirmation Requirements.
"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is shipped.
The recipient’s address matches the shipping address provided on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The item’s status as delivered.
The date the item is delivered.
The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page.
The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent)."

Since I hadn't looked this over for awhile I wanted to see if there were any changes. Also I asked both Paypal rep and eBay rep if the online tracking service stopped at say city alone: February 12--Arrived in London
Would that confirm delivery confirmation. They both said no. The buyer could claim, truthfully or not, that they did not receive the item and eBay and or Paypal would refund their money.

Bruce

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Stampme

27 Feb 2015
03:36:14pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

Michael,
I'm wondering if that February "customs tracking" number went further than just the city arrival as previously stated, as February 1 and closed the loop showing delivery to the buyer's street address?

Bruce

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
27 Feb 2015
05:35:31pm

re: SOR policy for lost shipments?

No. It still shows the same.

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