Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Login to Like
this post
Back in the 80's and early 90's we did 2 or 3 shows a month as a bourse dealer, including some of the large 3 day shows. Other dealers were gracious in providing advice to newbies and if you walked a mounted page of questionable stamps it was easy to at least get an educated opinion. Not that it was foolproof but we watched out for each other (it's easier to see someone dropping cards or covers into a briefcase from behind). Also easier to suggest that they slipped out of their hand to send a message to the thief (most were well known - some were even model citizens outside of that tiny little flaw).
Anyway - since the availability of weekend shows every weekend within an easy drive has dried up I'm not sure how best to do this with the hard to tell issues. I once bought a 2 inch binder of old large manila stocksheets crammed full of spurious materials at the end of a 3 day show that a blizzard screwed up for $25 on Sunday afternoon - but that was a fluke.
I'll be interested in hearing the responses.
Login to Like
this post
Steve, I collect Hungary French occupation and have an almost complete set. Most are probably of doubtful origin, although some, I inherited from my father, are vintage in age...if not authenticated. Unfortunately, I no longer know which ones! 
The ones I am missing, I will always assumed they are counterfeits when I see them listed. So I have had a hard time acquiring any more to fill a few remaining gaps, as most dealers selling on line assume they are authentic, and priced as such...do they sell? I am not sure, I have seen some remain listed for years. It is not worth it for most buyers to have them certified, so it is a real dilemma.
For me, it is clear, by default they are fake o/p. But I have failed to figure it out how to tell. I don't know how specialists do it, unless the o/p is clearly OFF (anyone can tell those apart!), but most are well done and separating the real stamps is a mystery for me.
If anyone has a clue, I would love to hear.
This is just for the French occupation o/p I have no knowledge for the other o/p on Hungary stamps, which I have a bunch...but no longer collect Hungary.
rrr...
(I have paid as much as $1 for fillers for the few I miss, but I justify the price only because there are so few I still want. If that is any guideline, I will not pay more.)
Login to Like
this post
02:06:08pm
My early Poland has piles of stuff like this! I've told there is no way a normal collector like me can tell the difference so I just put up with it and refuse to pay much for it. I also collect Cuba and there is an early "Principe" series that falls into the same category. I believe a lot of the European local posts have the same problem as does all that weird Russia BOB material I like. It's a major problem with no major solution except to accept that some, or most, of your material will be questionable so buy, and sell, low! Unless you are lucky enough to have experts nearby and maybe even then they might just be guessing!!
EDIT: I have a local, very knowledgeable, dealer that I have been using for over 50 years. Occasionally he'll provide me with material like this at about 10% CV with the provision that I can return it if I wish! That's about all he can do!!
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
If you know it bogus, suggest pricing it as if was damaged, 10% of cat.!
Login to Like
this post
04:12:36pm
"If you know it bogus, suggest pricing it as if was damaged, 10% of cat.!"
Sounds very fair to me. The only problem is the word "know", I bet there are many stamps where it is impossible to really know. Still, even if no one is sure, 10% sounds very fair. As I said, my dealer charges somewhere around 10% for items he can't be sure of. If I want them I keep them and I label them in my album with a ????. I really don't want to trick anyone, including myself, when the collection is disposed of.
Login to Like
this post
Hi
You can find interesting information on the website "www.romaniastamps.com"
For a faster search, go to:
- Catalogs 1858-1958
-Occupation issues - here you will find -"French occupation and Romanian occupation (Cluj/Oradea), Debrecen I/II issue.
If you go to Laszlo Kallai's Blog, you will find many articles (in Hungarian)
Login to Like
this post
Thanks for all of the opinions and suggestions on this. Unless I saw an original stamp next to a forgery - I am not sure I could tell the difference on these. I think all I can do is assume they are not original copies and price them as suggested. One of the stamps was cataloged at $3000.00. I assume that is not an original - but if I go for the 10% of CV - I am not even sure I would want to sell it for $300.00. That is much more than I paid for this auction lot in total. I also saw several stamps where there were inverted overprints - so I assume those are bad counterfeits but maybe not ? I will put a disclaimer on the approval book that I am making an assumption that the majority of the stamps may not be original copies. If someone buys one and they are more knowledgable about them and they get an original for a lower price - then all I can say is congrautualtuions and enjoy ! I have had some of these stamps before from other collections but I never took the time to read all of the warnings in the catalog about them until now. Thanks, Steve
Login to Like
this post
i see these occasionally, and always assume they are fakes. I haven't met anyone yet who would stand behind the Hungarian occupation stamps they were selling. I generally buy somewhere around 3-5% and plan to bequeath what I think will be an incredible accumulation of fakes to my daughter.
Login to Like
this post
For Hungary fakes and for the very expensive (probably 100% fakes) stamps, the 10% rule is worthless.
A better guideline is the price of the stamp without the o/p (usually 25c). I know... a pitty!
I will usually pay as much as $1-2 (rewarding the counterfeiter is definitely not my goal), but yes to the seller who did some work, and honestly listed them....if I really, really want to fill the spot. You can some times find them in kilowares of Hungary, but you need to go through a lot of labor.
I am with you Steve. How you price them is a mystery...there is no good guideline. Price them, and if they don't sell, adjust, and adjust again!
rrr....
PS: I feel the same about Iran o/p. Assume by default that they are fakes. I look at paying a nominal amount for just filling a spot...you may as well use a stamp without op and mark it yourself, it is not any different....
Login to Like
this post
Many of the Hungarian occupation overprints are hard to properly identify as there are so many fakes. Also each type, Arad, Baranya, Debrecen, will have different features used for identification. I would suggest first concentrating on one of the types for which you have the most stamps or most potential payoff, provided you want to learn to specialize, and learn how to identify those. Or you could concentrate on one expensive item you think you have, take a stab at identifying yourself and if nearly certain, send it to an expert. The Romanian occupation overprints, Debrecen I and II might be easier as I believe the overprints are identified in the specialized catalogues and at least one of the older forgery books has images with points of identification.
Of course, it is ideal to have a set of genuine examples that can be used as a template for identifying the fakes; e.g., you could buy certified genuine copies if you can find them, and then use those as examples, but that might be an expensive route. Absent real copies you might have to rely on images of genuine stamps or the overprints from reliable sources. There are some specialized articles/catalogs covering the overprints printed over the years. Consider joining/contacting the Society for Hungarian Philately.
I think Christopher Brainard wrote some articles (e.g., Catalog of Hungarian Occupation Issues), although maybe not exactly on forgeries, and there has been some work by Clark Souers. The Serrane Guide is supposed to have some sections on Hungarian Overprints, but I can’t find the pages; I recall, maybe incorrectly, one of my old counterfeit books has a small Debrecen overprint section.
I happen to have a largish collection of overprints, but haven’t dived/delved too deeply into that well/hole yet, as there are easier tasks to complete first.
Edit: I should have mentioned the Brainard catalog has a section on the Characteristics of Genuine Overprints.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Approvals
I just acquired a collection of Hunary Occupation stamps. According to Scott many of these may not be original stamps and could be counterfeits. It says only experts can tell the difference. I would like to make up an approval book of these stamps but I am a loss as to how to price them. Is there anyone here that knows more about them ? Should I assume they are not original stamps and price them low ? If I see a stamp that has a catalog value of $60.00 - how should I price it ? They sure look like nice stamps but I just do not know. Suggestions ? Thanks, Steve
Login to Like
this post
12:41:45pm
Approvals
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
Back in the 80's and early 90's we did 2 or 3 shows a month as a bourse dealer, including some of the large 3 day shows. Other dealers were gracious in providing advice to newbies and if you walked a mounted page of questionable stamps it was easy to at least get an educated opinion. Not that it was foolproof but we watched out for each other (it's easier to see someone dropping cards or covers into a briefcase from behind). Also easier to suggest that they slipped out of their hand to send a message to the thief (most were well known - some were even model citizens outside of that tiny little flaw).
Anyway - since the availability of weekend shows every weekend within an easy drive has dried up I'm not sure how best to do this with the hard to tell issues. I once bought a 2 inch binder of old large manila stocksheets crammed full of spurious materials at the end of a 3 day show that a blizzard screwed up for $25 on Sunday afternoon - but that was a fluke.
I'll be interested in hearing the responses.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
Steve, I collect Hungary French occupation and have an almost complete set. Most are probably of doubtful origin, although some, I inherited from my father, are vintage in age...if not authenticated. Unfortunately, I no longer know which ones!
The ones I am missing, I will always assumed they are counterfeits when I see them listed. So I have had a hard time acquiring any more to fill a few remaining gaps, as most dealers selling on line assume they are authentic, and priced as such...do they sell? I am not sure, I have seen some remain listed for years. It is not worth it for most buyers to have them certified, so it is a real dilemma.
For me, it is clear, by default they are fake o/p. But I have failed to figure it out how to tell. I don't know how specialists do it, unless the o/p is clearly OFF (anyone can tell those apart!), but most are well done and separating the real stamps is a mystery for me.
If anyone has a clue, I would love to hear.
This is just for the French occupation o/p I have no knowledge for the other o/p on Hungary stamps, which I have a bunch...but no longer collect Hungary.
rrr...
(I have paid as much as $1 for fillers for the few I miss, but I justify the price only because there are so few I still want. If that is any guideline, I will not pay more.)
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Aug 2023
02:06:08pm
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
My early Poland has piles of stuff like this! I've told there is no way a normal collector like me can tell the difference so I just put up with it and refuse to pay much for it. I also collect Cuba and there is an early "Principe" series that falls into the same category. I believe a lot of the European local posts have the same problem as does all that weird Russia BOB material I like. It's a major problem with no major solution except to accept that some, or most, of your material will be questionable so buy, and sell, low! Unless you are lucky enough to have experts nearby and maybe even then they might just be guessing!!
EDIT: I have a local, very knowledgeable, dealer that I have been using for over 50 years. Occasionally he'll provide me with material like this at about 10% CV with the provision that I can return it if I wish! That's about all he can do!!
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
04:02:12pm
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
If you know it bogus, suggest pricing it as if was damaged, 10% of cat.!
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Aug 2023
04:12:36pm
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
"If you know it bogus, suggest pricing it as if was damaged, 10% of cat.!"
Sounds very fair to me. The only problem is the word "know", I bet there are many stamps where it is impossible to really know. Still, even if no one is sure, 10% sounds very fair. As I said, my dealer charges somewhere around 10% for items he can't be sure of. If I want them I keep them and I label them in my album with a ????. I really don't want to trick anyone, including myself, when the collection is disposed of.
Login to Like
this post
11:50:32pm
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
Hi
You can find interesting information on the website "www.romaniastamps.com"
For a faster search, go to:
- Catalogs 1858-1958
-Occupation issues - here you will find -"French occupation and Romanian occupation (Cluj/Oradea), Debrecen I/II issue.
If you go to Laszlo Kallai's Blog, you will find many articles (in Hungarian)
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
Thanks for all of the opinions and suggestions on this. Unless I saw an original stamp next to a forgery - I am not sure I could tell the difference on these. I think all I can do is assume they are not original copies and price them as suggested. One of the stamps was cataloged at $3000.00. I assume that is not an original - but if I go for the 10% of CV - I am not even sure I would want to sell it for $300.00. That is much more than I paid for this auction lot in total. I also saw several stamps where there were inverted overprints - so I assume those are bad counterfeits but maybe not ? I will put a disclaimer on the approval book that I am making an assumption that the majority of the stamps may not be original copies. If someone buys one and they are more knowledgable about them and they get an original for a lower price - then all I can say is congrautualtuions and enjoy ! I have had some of these stamps before from other collections but I never took the time to read all of the warnings in the catalog about them until now. Thanks, Steve
Login to Like
this post
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
i see these occasionally, and always assume they are fakes. I haven't met anyone yet who would stand behind the Hungarian occupation stamps they were selling. I generally buy somewhere around 3-5% and plan to bequeath what I think will be an incredible accumulation of fakes to my daughter.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
For Hungary fakes and for the very expensive (probably 100% fakes) stamps, the 10% rule is worthless.
A better guideline is the price of the stamp without the o/p (usually 25c). I know... a pitty!
I will usually pay as much as $1-2 (rewarding the counterfeiter is definitely not my goal), but yes to the seller who did some work, and honestly listed them....if I really, really want to fill the spot. You can some times find them in kilowares of Hungary, but you need to go through a lot of labor.
I am with you Steve. How you price them is a mystery...there is no good guideline. Price them, and if they don't sell, adjust, and adjust again!
rrr....
PS: I feel the same about Iran o/p. Assume by default that they are fakes. I look at paying a nominal amount for just filling a spot...you may as well use a stamp without op and mark it yourself, it is not any different....
Login to Like
this post
re: Hungary Occupation Stamps
Many of the Hungarian occupation overprints are hard to properly identify as there are so many fakes. Also each type, Arad, Baranya, Debrecen, will have different features used for identification. I would suggest first concentrating on one of the types for which you have the most stamps or most potential payoff, provided you want to learn to specialize, and learn how to identify those. Or you could concentrate on one expensive item you think you have, take a stab at identifying yourself and if nearly certain, send it to an expert. The Romanian occupation overprints, Debrecen I and II might be easier as I believe the overprints are identified in the specialized catalogues and at least one of the older forgery books has images with points of identification.
Of course, it is ideal to have a set of genuine examples that can be used as a template for identifying the fakes; e.g., you could buy certified genuine copies if you can find them, and then use those as examples, but that might be an expensive route. Absent real copies you might have to rely on images of genuine stamps or the overprints from reliable sources. There are some specialized articles/catalogs covering the overprints printed over the years. Consider joining/contacting the Society for Hungarian Philately.
I think Christopher Brainard wrote some articles (e.g., Catalog of Hungarian Occupation Issues), although maybe not exactly on forgeries, and there has been some work by Clark Souers. The Serrane Guide is supposed to have some sections on Hungarian Overprints, but I can’t find the pages; I recall, maybe incorrectly, one of my old counterfeit books has a small Debrecen overprint section.
I happen to have a largish collection of overprints, but haven’t dived/delved too deeply into that well/hole yet, as there are easier tasks to complete first.
Edit: I should have mentioned the Brainard catalog has a section on the Characteristics of Genuine Overprints.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.